ilikeyyc
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:21 am

http://aclu-ky.org/

Quote:

Lawsuit Challenges Kentucky Authority
Thursday, 19 July 2007
ACLU of Kentucky Sues to Protect Lawful Permanent Resident's Right to Carry Concealed Deadly Weapons

LOUISVILLE -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky filed a federal lawsuit yesterday challenging a Kentucky statute that prohibits lawful permanent residents from obtaining permits to carry concealed deadly weapons.

The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Alexander M. Say, a British national who has lived legally in Kentucky for 15 years. During that time, Say has bought several firearms and, according to the lawsuit, never had any problems with an FBI background check or approval process.

Before 2006, Kentucky law would have permitted Say to obtain a concealed carry license. But Kentucky's legislature amended the statutory requirements in 2006, adding that license applicants must be United States citizens. Say's lawsuit, filed in United States District Court for the Western District, challenges Kentucky's authority to impose that citizenship requirement.

"The federal government controls whether foreign citizens may live in the United States and on what terms," said Jack Harrison, an ACLU cooperating attorney handling Say's case. Because there are no federal laws that require United States citizenship as a prerequisite for an application for or the issuance of a license to purchase, carry, transport, or carry a concealed deadly weapon, "Kentucky's law discriminates against people who are lawful permanent residents," Harrison said.

The lawsuit seeks an injunction barring the Kentucky State Police and Jefferson County Sheriff --- the two entities that process and can approve Say's license application --- from enforcing the state's citizenship requirement.

While this story isn't all that recent, it is presumably still ongoing. The story is still on the front page of the Kentucky ACLU web page. I have sent an email to this chapter for the official status of this suit. Feel free to post any updates to this if you have the information.

I will watch this one closely for several reasons, most importantly because I have a good friend here in Kentucky who is an outstanding person, a foreigner who owns several guns, but can not get his concealed carry permit simply because he is not an American citizen. I hope for his sake, and the sake of all lawful permanent residents in this state, that the ACLU prevails with this suit.
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airfoilsguy
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:55 am

You should pose this question in this thread.  Smile

http://www.de.airliners.net/discussi...ns/non_aviation/read.main/1805211/
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flynavy
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:58 am



Quoting Ilikeyyc (Thread starter):
I will watch this one closely for several reasons, most importantly because I have a good friend here in Kentucky who is an outstanding person, a foreigner who owns several guns, but can not get his concealed carry permit simply because he is not an American citizen. I hope for his sake, and the sake of all lawful permanent residents in this state, that the ACLU prevails with this suit.

Is he a member of a well-regulated militia?

Didn't think so.

NEXT.
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Stealthz
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:02 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):
Is he a member of a well-regulated militia?

Didn't think so.

And the % of concealed permit holders in the US that are is??

Thought so!
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flynavy
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:03 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 3):
And the % of concealed permit holders in the US that are is??

I'm sorry, that sentence doesn't compute. Try again?
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miamiair
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:07 pm

If you are a lawful permanent resident, I do not see why you shouldn't be allowed to obtain a CWP. You deserve the rights afforded to you, that should be one of them.

What I find ironic is the ACLU defending his right, while they oppose guns. But, that is what America is about.
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Stealthz
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:31 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
I'm sorry, that sentence doesn't compute. Try again?

Perhaps it doesn't but as your point seemed to be that this, non citizen legal resident, was somehow not eligible for a concealed weapons permit because he was not a member of a "well regulated militia", my counterpoint was.. what percentage of those citizens of the USA with a concealed weapons permit are members of a so called "well regulated militia"

Cheers
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agill
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:38 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):

Is he a member of a well-regulated militia?

Well your says that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.", it doesn't say that you can only have guns if you are in a militia does it?
 
CupraIbiza
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:46 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 6):
Perhaps it doesn't but as your point seemed to be that this, non citizen legal resident, was somehow not eligible for a concealed weapons permit because he was not a member of a "well regulated militia", my counterpoint was.. what percentage of those citizens of the USA with a concealed weapons permit are members of a so called "well regulated militia"

Cheers

The constitutional right to "bear arms" requires the holder of the "arm" to be a member of a "well regulated militia"

I have posted this question a number of times, but have never received in my mind a satisfactory answer.

How has the term "well regulated" been interpreted (some would say mis-) to arrive at the current state of affairs?
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miamiair
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 8):
The constitutional right to "bear arms" requires the holder of the "arm" to be a member of a "well regulated militia"

Not a requirement. Wait until next month when the Supreme Court decides a case before it.
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agill
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:57 pm



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 8):

The constitutional right to "bear arms" requires the holder of the "arm" to be a member of a "well regulated militia"

Where does it say that? It would seem like a pretty big infringement of the right to be honnest?
 
CupraIbiza
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 9):
Not a requirement. Wait until next month when the Supreme Court decides a case before it.

How is it not a requirement? This is what I mean. I ask this question and get (whilst well meaning) very vague wishy washy answers.

Quoting Agill (Reply 10):
Where does it say that?

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

Quoting Agill (Reply 10):
It would seem like a pretty big infringement of the right to be honnest?

Thats what I am trying to get the bottom of!
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miamiair
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:18 pm



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 11):
How is it not a requirement?

It is not a requirement. The Founding Fathers put that in there as a compromise between several of the people framing the Constitution.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
CupraIbiza
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 12):
It is not a requirement. The Founding Fathers put that in there as a compromise between several of the people framing the Constitution.

I can accept that "militia" is the entire population
But the "well regulated" part is just ignored????
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miamiair
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:34 pm



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 13):

This is what it boils down to:

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." George Mason (3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426)

"The militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves, ... all men capable of bearing arms;..." -- Richard Henry Lee writing in "Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic", 1788, page 169.

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People." -- Tench Coxe - 1788.

The Framers intended to safeguard the right of the people to keep and bear arms, possibly even as an end in itself.
But they did not see the militia as an end in itself. They saw it merely as a means to another end: the "security of a free State."

The militia clause is there to remind us that the arms protected by the Second Amendment are "the arms of the militiaman or soldier" It is there to remind us that "when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
miamiair
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:36 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 13):

A point made by a reader:
"...there is a difference between "giving citizens the right to own guns because it's necessary to be able to form a militia" and "requiring that citizens belong to a militia to own guns." As you know, the Second Amendment states the former and not the latter."
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CaptOveur
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:38 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):
Is he a member of a well-regulated militia?

Didn't think so.

Define "well regulated militia"

Don't bother. Lawyers with far more education and better credentials than you have been trying for probably 100 years and haven't been successful.

The funny part to me is- the people who wrote the second amendment were at one point British citizens.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Pyrex
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:39 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 12):
It is not a requirement. The Founding Fathers put that in there as a compromise between several of the people framing the Constitution.

I don't get it - when are you supposed to legislate on what the writers of the Constitution wrote and when are you supposed to legislate based on what you think they (or some of them - what is wrong in a compromise?) wanted to say?
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CupraIbiza
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:49 pm

Thanks for that.
However I have no issue with the "militia" part.

Its the "well regulated" part that I cant get my head around
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agill
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:53 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 15):
A point made by a reader:
"...there is a difference between "giving citizens the right to own guns because it's necessary to be able to form a militia" and "requiring that citizens belong to a militia to own guns." As you know, the Second Amendment states the former and not the latter."

I can't even understand how it can be read as the second statement, I mean it doesn't say that that you have to be in a militia to have guns, and thinking about the times when the constitution was written it's hard to imagine that the founding fathers meant that all people should be disarmed, especially considering how many of the population that were hunting back then. Of course english isn't my native tounge, so for you english speakers it might not be so strange  Smile
 
CupraIbiza
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 16):
Don't bother.

Hmm might have to give up I think....

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 16):
wrote the second amendment were at one point British citizens.

... and add this to the list of things to blame on the Brits
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flynavy
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:45 pm

Joe Schmoe certainly isn't a "well regulated militia" in and of himself.

I'm not saying that a average, law-abiding, tax-paying citizen doesn't have the right to defend his or herself; in fact, I support that right.

What I am saying is that said right shouldn't have anything to do with - including supported by - the Second Amendment.

That's just my interpretation of it.
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agill
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:08 pm



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 11):

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

It does? Where in that statement does it say that it "requires the holder of the 'arm' to be a member of a 'well regulated militia'"?
It only says that a militia is important for a free state, and that the right of the people to bear arms shal not be infringed. Not that to bear arms you have to be in a militia.
 
Pope
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 21):
Joe Schmoe certainly isn't a "well regulated militia" in and of himself.

I don't know about that. I know some people whose arms collections exceeds those of several small nation states.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
MDorBust
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:44 pm



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 8):
The constitutional right to "bear arms" requires the holder of the "arm" to be a member of a "well regulated militia"

I have posted this question a number of times, but have never received in my mind a satisfactory answer.

There is an ongoing thread about the 2A. Your question has been answered there. In short, all American citizens are members of the Constitutional militia by default.

Good for the ACLU.. now if only they would support the right of American citizens to own guns for once...
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Falcon84
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:27 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 5):
What I find ironic is the ACLU defending his right, while they oppose guns. But, that is what America is about.

That's what the ACLU is about-protecting Constitutional rights. That's their job. Unfortunately, far too many of our friends, especially on the right here in the U.S., would rather get rid of them because they don't agree with them all the time. They do a valuable service, protecting citizens from the government trampling on the Bill of Rights.

Sometime they do seem to go overboard, but without groups like them, the government would eventually destroy the Bill of Rights.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 16):
Define "well regulated militia"

Army, Navy, Air Force, Marienes. You know-the military?

A well-regulated militia back in 1776 was citizens being form into militia's to fight. There was no real standing army. That's what it refers to. But that's for another thread.
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diamond
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:59 pm

The gun community may hate the ACLU for a number of their other positions. But they aren't the enemy when it comes to gun issues that many might expect.


ACLU Defends Gun Rights:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/119544.html


The ACLU official policy (excerpts) on Gun Rights:

"The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the
Second Amendment that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the
preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia
. Except for lawful
police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not
constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment
to the regulation of firearms . . .

. . . The Due Process Committee suggested that the problem with the footnote was
that it was indefensible on civil liberties grounds, and that it is not the
ACLU's role to commit the ACLU to involve ourselves in social issues by
finding a constitutional basis where there is none. Even though gun control is
a desirable social objective, and it would be nice to find a civil liberties
rationale for affirmative ACLU support of gun control legislation, the
Committee noted that the ACLU has never supported particular remedies for
particular crimes, and as such, we cannot support gun control legislation
."
Blank.
 
Pyrex
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 21):
I'm not saying that a average, law-abiding, tax-paying citizen doesn't have the right to defend his or herself; in fact, I support that right.

What I am saying is that said right shouldn't have anything to do with - including supported by - the Second Amendment.

I agree on a point that may or may not be different from yours. Constitutions are just laws a bit more difficult to change than normal laws. They are written on a specific era and are intended to govern the lifes of the people who live in those areas. They are never intended to be imutable and should constantly be revised and updated - the Founding Fathers or whoever wrote them do not have to live with them now, the current citizens do, so they should be entitled to change them if they so desire.

So in a way, just because it says so on the Constitution doesn't mean we have to live with it. If a majority of people decides to repeal the 2nd amendment it is their right, just as if they get tired of free speech it is their right to change the 1st amendment. Now let it be noted, I would not support either measure, and am sure a country could not continue to be called a democracy without free speech, but it is their right.

Quoting Agill (Reply 22):
It only says that a militia is important for a free state, and that the right of the people to bear arms shal not be infringed. Not that to bear arms you have to be in a militia.

Problem is no-one really knows what that phrase means, it isn't even written in proper English.
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MDorBust
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:42 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 26):
But they aren't the enemy when it comes to gun issues that many might expect.

Yes they are. The ACLU is absolutely the enemy of people who are Pro 2A.

Read the part of the statement you didn't underline.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 26):
"The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the
Second Amendment that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the
preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful
police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not
constitutionally protected.

Can anyone find me a decision by the SCOTUS saying that ownership of firearms is restricted only to police and military purposes?

In fact, I suspect that if you read the ACLU statements on cases where they have appeared to side with the 2A they are actually involved in the case because they think other rights have been violated.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Falcon84
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
Yes they are. The ACLU is absolutely the enemy of people who are Pro 2A.

Then does that mean those who are Pro 2A are enemies of the rest of the Bill of Rights? Because that's what the ACLU defends-the Bill of Rights.

Interesting, that those who are so gung-ho for their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, oppose the very organization that defends the document where that Amendment sits.
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MDorBust
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:54 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Then does that mean those who are Pro 2A are enemies of the rest of the Bill of Rights?

No it does not Falcon. It just means we can not support an organization that is openly hostile to our exercising a right that has been affirmed many times by the SCOTUS. ACLU is the party here that is picking and choosing which rights they like and want to protect, not us.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Because that's what the ACLU defends-the Bill of Rights.

There are ten rights in the BOR, not nine. Nor is the ACLU the sole method of defending the BOR Falcon. One need not align themselves with the ACLU to defend the BOR.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Interesting, that those who are so gung-ho for their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, oppose the very organization that defends the document where that Amendment sits.

Oh please, enough of the, "ACLU can do no wrong  redflag ."
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Falcon84
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:01 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
ACLU is the party here that is picking and choosing which rights they like and want to protect, not us.

I might argue you're only interpreting the 2A to fit what you want it to mean, so you're picking and choosing just like you claim the ACLU does. I don't think 2A was ever meant to allow millions upon millions of handguns, semi-auto's and other kind of weapons, to be free and available for almost anyone to have. I think it was set up for a time-1789, when we had no standing military force, and the "force" WAS the people, called forth by the government when it was time to defend it. It was that way through the Civil War. I believe, with the creation of a standing army-a "well-regulated militia", which is the arm to protect the nation, 2A became outdated, and, perverted by those who simply want guns.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
Oh please, enough of the, "ACLU can do no wrong

Never said that. I believe they are wrong on certain issues. The only perfection ever to walk this earth was Christ, and everyone eise IS wrong, even the NRA.  Smile I disagree with them on issues, but I'd much rather have a nation with watchdog's like them than one without.
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D L X
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:01 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 5):
What I find ironic is the ACLU defending his right, while they oppose guns.

It shouldn't surprise you. The ACLU is all about pushing government out of interfering with the given liberties detailed by the Constitution. They are not right, they are not left. (As much as Bill-O wants to make them into a left wing organization, it's mostly because they also fight for the separation of church and state.)
 
PPVRA
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:08 pm



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 8):
The constitutional right to "bear arms" requires the holder of the "arm" to be a member of a "well regulated militia"



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 11):

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

I don't interpret that as a requirement. It's two different things. It does say "right of the people" not "right of the militia" nor the "right of the militiamen".


Regardless, only the people can defend their freedom. Freedom is taken by government, it is the "enemy" if it decides to take freedom away, thus it would make no sense to expect it to defend people's freedom when they are the ones taking it away.

You can't be powerless and be expected to defend freedom. Guns is how governments achieves anything and everything they do, because without it, no one would pay attention.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting Mdorbust (Reply 24):
There is an ongoing thread about the 2A. Your question has been answered there. In short, all American citizens are members of the Constitutional militia by default.

No it hasnt. You made no mention in your answer in regards to "well regulated"

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 33):

I don't interpret that as a requirement. It's two different things. It does say "right of the people" not "right of the militia" nor the "right of the militiamen".

Woo Hoo thank you PPVRA. You actually mentioned "well regulated" in your post!
Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
 
PPVRA
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:30 am



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 34):

That probably has something to do with a military, and isn't very specific because there are different ways you can have a military. You can have a professional one, like most countries do. There's the Swiss model. There's the "local militia" model as in Afghanistan (not necessarily a bad thing) and there's the National Guard in the U.S. as well, that's sort of like a local militia.

So perhaps they left that part kind of up for interpretation so not to restrict any kind of military organization.

If you take "shall not be infringed" to mean just that, a regulation would be a violation, thus it must be dealing with a state-military organization.

My two cents.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
D L X
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RE: God Bless The Aclu And The 2nd Amendment!

Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:19 am



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 14):
This is what it boils down to:

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." George Mason (3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426)

"The militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves, ... all men capable of bearing arms;..." -- Richard Henry Lee writing in "Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic", 1788, page 169.

This is getting further and further off topic, but this has to be addressed. Miamiair, what you are quoting is NOT from the Constitutional Convention, which was closed doors. This thing is after the amendment was drafted and sent to the states.

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