UTA_flyinghigh
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GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:11 pm

So GM lost 38.7 billion $ in 07 :
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...NJAC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Wow  Wow!

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aa757first
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:28 pm

I really wonder how much GM would save if they consolidated to three or four brands.
 
dtw9
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:32 pm

You need to read between the lines on this one,




GM's annual loss of $38.7 billion largely was due to a third-quarter charge related to unused tax credits.

The 2007 loss topped GM's previous record in 1992, when the company lost $23.4 billion because of a change in health care accounting, according to Standard & Poor's Compustat.

Excluding the tax charge and other special items, GM lost $23 million, or 4 cents per share, for the year



Their actual loss for the year was 23 million.
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:43 pm

I think it's time the US manufacturers start building good quality cars. I dumped my chevy for a mazda a few months ago and couldn't be happier.

GM is the wallmart of the Auto industry.
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Jetsgo
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:56 pm

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
I dumped my chevy for a mazda

That Mazda is simply a rebadged Ford.

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
GM is the wallmart of the Auto industry

If you're going to insult, make sure you spell correctly. Wal*Mart, Wal Mart, or even wal mart.  Smile

With regards to the loss GM is posting, I believe dtw9 hit the nail on the head. I also believe that GM should cut down to Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Maybe keep GMC. The whole concept of having a Traverse, Acadia, Outlook, and Enclave is completely stupid. Same goes for a Tahoe, Yukon, and Escalade, and just about every other minivan and small "SUV" GM makes. All they need is an economy brand... Chevy, a sporty brand... Pontiac, and a luxury brand... Cadillac. And maybe GMC for heavy duty trucks. Ford and Chrysler could take note too. I just don't see why they build cars to compete with other cars they already build?   

Then of course there is the UAW....

[Edited 2008-02-12 12:57:56]
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aa757first
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:09 pm



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
I also believe that GM should cut down to Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Maybe keep GMC. The whole concept of having a Traverse, Acadia, Outlook, and Enclave is completely stupid. Same goes for a Tahoe, Yukon, and Escalade, and just about every other minivan and small "SUV" GM makes. All they need is an economy brand... Chevy, a sporty brand... Pontiac, and a luxury brand... Cadillac. And maybe GMC for heavy duty trucks. Ford and Chrysler could take note too. I just don't see why they build cars to compete with other cars they already build?

GM has to have the worst branding strategy in the US auto industry. Look at Toyota. Three brands Toyota (general), Lexus (luxury) and Scion (boutique brand). And they sell similar amounts of cars.

Buick is not really a necessary brand anymore. Neither is GMC, Saturn or Pontiac. If they dropped those four brands, they'd be left with Chevy (the general brand), Cadillac (luxury brand), Hummer (boutique) and Saab (at least they sell distinctive cars). It would be sad to see those brands go, but they really just don't serve a purpose anymore.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:10 pm

So I wonder what will come first? GM pulling their head out of their ass and realizing they are behind the rest of the world in manufacturing, labor relations, and engineering. Or more plant shut downs, more discontinued lines, and maybe a bankruptcy filing possibly combined with a sellout to a company that was once a nobody.
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Jetsgo
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:20 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 5):
Buick is not really a necessary brand anymore. Neither is GMC, Saturn or Pontiac. If they dropped those four brands, they'd be left with Chevy (the general brand), Cadillac (luxury brand), Hummer (boutique) and Saab (at least they sell distinctive cars). It would be sad to see those brands go, but they really just don't serve a purpose anymore.

I partly disagree. Pontiac should be kept as a sporty line. The new G8 is a Charger killer, even though it is a Holden. If not keep it, Chevy should expand its SS line to actual decent cars, not two door Silverado's and front wheel drive Impala's. I also would say that Hummer should be dumped because they are such a disgrace to the orgional Hummers.   Plus they offer nothing that can't be found in a Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade. As for Saab, once they introduced the 9-7x, I lost all respect for GM's owership of Saab. They should be sold off to a company that will respect the uniqueness of Saab, and produce cars that aren't copies of a TrailBlazer and Envoy. Buick and Saturn should be dumped, especially with the release of a $30,000 Saturn Outlook.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 6):
So I wonder what will come first? GM pulling their head out of their ass and realizing they are behind the rest of the world in manufacturing, labor relations, and engineering. Or more plant shut downs, more discontinued lines, and maybe a bankruptcy filing possibly combined with a sellout to a company that was once a nobody.

Sadly, GM has seen this coming for years. I won't hold much hope for them. I would love to see them succeed, but given their track record, I am uncertain.

[Edited 2008-02-12 13:25:32]
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flight152
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:37 pm



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 7):
Pontiac should be kept as a sporty line.

An announcement today--

"However the new Trans Am that Pontiac had lobbied for as a sibling vehicle to the Chevrolet Camaro has been rejected. GM also told Pontiac dealers that any plans to make the brand a rear-wheel-drive performance division are likely to be scaled back because of fuel-economy regulations."

Wow. Performance? Pontiac is destined to be full of FWD 4-cylinder boat anchors. This new Camaro which, by the way has taken what, 2 years to come out? Where is it?

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/02/12...c-no-trans-am-no-rear-wheel-drive/
 
NWA742
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
I think it's time the US manufacturers start building good quality cars.

They are. In fact, they are building cars that are amazingly higher quality than ones from a short while ago.

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
I dumped my chevy for a mazda a few months ago and couldn't be happier.

GM is the wallmart of the Auto industry.

Thank you for displaying a clear example of the intelligence level quite commonly seen with people who know nothing about cars, but are always happy to assume that everything the US makes is shit, and everything foreign is so much better. BTW, your Mazda is a Ford.

 rotfl 

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 5):
GM has to have the worst branding strategy in the US auto industry.

Now that is most certainly true. Do we really need 7 freaking versions of the Trailblazer? GM has all the potential to become great once again, but shitheads in high places have kept that from happening.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 8):
Wow. Performance? Pontiac is destined to be full of FWD 4-cylinder boat anchors.

Hopefully not. Pontiac should either be kept as a sporty division or killed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Pontiac_G8_concept_car.JPG/800px-Pontiac_G8_concept_car.JPG

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 8):
This new Camaro which, by the way has taken what, 2 years to come out? Where is it?

Scheduled for release in



and will go on sale in the first quarter of 2009 - what's your problem with that?




-NWA742
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CaptOveur
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:14 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
. In fact, they are building cars that are amazingly higher quality than ones from a short while ago.

It's easy to improve when you are at the bottom. Just ask the Japanese.. 20 years ago nobody in their right mind would touch one and now they are killing the Three Stooges.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
Pontiac should either be kept as a sporty division or killed.

Agreed. It looks like whatever that Pontiac you posted wants to be a BMW. Just like that little 2 seat sports car Pontiac pushes (Solstice?) looks like it was ripped off from Lotus (though probably slightly more reliable). They would stand a better chance if they came up with their own designs instead of stealing from others.
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NWA742
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:18 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
It's easy to improve when you are at the bottom. Just ask the Japanese.. 20 years ago nobody in their right mind would touch one and now they are killing the Three Stooges.

 checkmark 

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
Agreed. It looks like whatever that Pontiac you posted wants to be a BMW.

It's the G8 - going to be a RWD V8 sedan. It already looks badass, and it's going to be a beast in the performance department.




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cfalk
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:18 pm

I'm shopping around for a new car. Last week I came 'this close' to buying the new Bullitt Mustang. - I walked away when the dealer wanted $15K dealer premium. Can we say "Rip Off?"

But the Bullitt was an unusual choice. Sure, it had its drawbacks, but the exterior is beautifuly understated (no scoops and hoods and chrome), and the engine noise is almost orgasmic.

But in the past couple of months, every single new American car I get into just feels cheap. Even the Caddy. Cheap plastic everywhere.

They aren't the only ones. Even BMWs, which I love, often use pretty cheap-feeling plastics - but at least you know they won't shake off the dash in 100k miles. American plastics feel like they will.

GM can turn their whole company around if they are willing to spend maybe $50-70 per car. That would be all it takes (when buying in large quantities) to upgrade the feel and quality of the driver's interior. The steering wheel is the most important - the driver is in tactile contact with that the whole time. If the wheel feels substantial and expensive, that's half the battle.

Some years ago my parents, retired, bought a Subaru Outback. I laughed when I heard that - they were used to pretty luxurious cars. But when I sat in the Subaru I was amazed. The materials of the interior were top-notch, and just FEELS expensive. And face it, you spend most of the time with your car inside it looking out, not outside looking in. So they bought a car that feels like a luxury car for a lot less money than the Jaguar which they were originally shopping for (Jag has nice interiors too).

It's all a matter of priorities, GM. Spend a little less money on advertising and spend that money on giving your cars a decent interior that makes people think that they are in a much more expensive car. Word of mouth will more than make up for the advertising shortfall.
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LTU932
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:22 pm



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
I also believe that GM should cut down to Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac.

GM is also the majority owner of German car maker Opel. If GM was to consolidate on only three brands or so, what would become of Opel?

BTW: Shouldn't GM be in bankruptcy by now? They've been making losses year after year, and they still don't file for Chapter 11.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
I just don't see why they build cars to compete with other cars they already build?

Supposedly to give customers the option to always choose their personal favorite brand. Granted, these days that's absolute bull when you consider that one car sold as Opel, Holden, Chevy, Saturn, etc is really just the same car with minor changes.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 5):
GM has to have the worst branding strategy in the US auto industry

And it's not just limited to the US. To say that Chevy Germany is doing bad would be a compliment. The GM group is already well-positioned in Germany with home country manufacturer Opel (offering everything from city car to SUV) and a strong import force in Saab, yet GM felt that after absorbing Daewoo (who had already reverse-engineered Opel models in the past) they should rebrand them as Chevrolet and compete on the German market. Well, no dice with that, these days it seems like the Corvette C6 and Hummer H3 are outselling all "Daevrolet" models combined  Yeah sure .

Admittedly, in the US it is even worse, but at least over there, all sub-brands have a healthy name reputation, whereas over here Chevy is solely related to the Corvette, with most people not even knowing that Chevy does build other models. Now personally I can't judge the US market so good, but I see it like this:
-Buick needs to be put to sleep. Sure, Buick has a great history, but it doesn't have a good presence and an even bleaker future. I don't know how others feel, but personally I associate Buick with middle class to upper class limousines, not SUVs, definitely not.
-Split up seturn. Completely kill the Aura (based on the same platform as the Malibu and G6), merge the Sky with the Solstice, keep the Astra, and move the Vue and Outlook to GMC
-Make GMC the sole SUV provider in the GM group, at least for the US market save for the Escalade
-Cadillac as the luxury brand, as said by others
-Pontiac as sporty brand, as also said before
And since we're at it, drop Chevy in Germany and focus more on Opel and Saab.

As a side, from my experience over the holidays, the Pontiac G6 is actually a pretty nice car. Put 2000 miles on it in 13 days, didn't have any problems, and got good mileage per gallon out of it.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:31 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 11):
It already looks badass

No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
every single new American car I get into just feels cheap. Even the Caddy. Cheap plastic everywhere.

This is my biggest hangup about American cars. My grandfather has been buying Cadillacs every 3-5 years since the early 1950s and after the last 2 he has talked about looking at other cars. I have driven the most recent one (its a 2006) and I positively hate even sitting in the thing.

Also, what is up with GM mentioning Honda in the ads for Impalas and Toyota in the Ads for Malibus? Doesn't that seem a bit stupid to anyone else telling people what other cars they should think about before they even set foot in the dealer?
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cfalk
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though

Actually I saw a british test of it (they are selling it as a Vauxhall over there) and apparently it is a blast to drive. But if they do what they usually do and soften up the suspension for the American market, then all bets are off.

What's with Americans, anyway? What is so delicate about our butts that everyone, even Ferrari and Porsche, have to soften up the cars before sending them here? It's not as if we have less padding on our butts than the rest of the world  Silly
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NWA742
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:44 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW.

And some BMWs are beasts.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

I bet you it will. A Motor Trend reviewer: "If the experience recalls any other car, it's the previous-generation BMW M5, which also had a six-speed stick, 400 horses, and a wonderfully communicative chassis."




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LOT767-300ER
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:48 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Admittedly, in the US it is even worse, but at least over there, all sub-brands have a healthy name reputation, whereas over here Chevy is solely related to the Corvette, with most people not even knowing that Chevy does build other models. Now

The Corvette is not branded or sold as a Chevy in Europe.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
And it's not just limited to the US. To say that Chevy Germany is doing bad would be a compliment. The GM group is already well-positioned in Germany with home country manufacturer Opel (offering everything from city car to SUV) and a strong import force in Saab, yet GM felt that after absorbing Daewoo (who had already reverse-engineered Opel models in the past) they should rebrand them as Chevrolet and compete on the German market. Well, no dice with that, these days it seems like the Corvette C6 and Hummer H3 are outselling all "Daevrolet" models combined .

This really also pisses me off. Its unreasonably idiotic to badge Korean crap as Chevrolet. Too bad this happens even with the Daewoo Kalos-Chevy Aveo in the USA...why dont they just let Suzuki take that crap like they take all other Daewoo crap here.
 
Banco
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:53 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):

I wondered when you'd turn up. Big grin

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):
The Corvette is not branded or sold as a Chevy in Europe.

Correct. It's just listed as "Corvette", but distributed through Cadillac dealers - of which there are very few.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):
Its unreasonably idiotic to badge Korean crap as Chevrolet.

It doesn't exactly do much for Chevrolet's image, does it? Although now they have introduced the Captiva under the Chevvy brand, which is a little bit better, I suppose.
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CupraIbiza
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

A BMW 550i and Mercedes E500 was road tested against the VE Holden Calais V (basically the luxury vesrion of the the Pontiac G8 you will receive). The result was that the Holden had better ride and handling - and for $100K less

Now if Ford Australia could only convince HQ in the US to release the locally produced Falcon (especially the XR6 Turbo) but we can only dream
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steeler83
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:00 am

Maybe they can turn things around with some of their new Chevy concepts that are constantly in the commercials  crossfingers 
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Jetsgo
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:12 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

Even if it doesn't, what's your point? That a $60,000 BMW can handle better then a $30,000 Pontiac? How long were you up figuring that one out?  Yeah sure

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 20):
Now if Ford Australia could only convince HQ in the US to release the locally produced Falcon (especially the XR6 Turbo) but we can only dream

That is another big gripe I have. Why are we stuck with underpowered Fusions, Five Hundreds, Impalas, and Grand Prix, while the Australians down under get some sweet Fords and Holdens?
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:17 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
Correct. It's just listed as "Corvette", but distributed through Cadillac dealers - of which there are very few.

Im glad I needed your approval to make a correction. So now we have me as the corrector, and you as the corrector's corrector. Fine.

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
It doesn't exactly do much for Chevrolet's image, does it? Although now they have introduced the Captiva under the Chevvy brand, which is a little bit better, I suppose.

Banco, the Captiva/Antara is made also by Daewoo in Korea...  Silly Its nothing more than a bloody Daewoo Winstorm rebadged just like every other vehicle. The only difference in the Antara over the Captiva is different dimensions but thats about it....if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...its still a damn duck.

Let the corrector's corrector correct me again if I am incorrect.
 
Banco
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:25 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 23):
Im glad I needed your approval to make a correction. So now we have me as the corrector, and you as the corrector's corrector. Fine.

Oh, don't be an arse.  Yeah sure I was just adding more information.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 23):
little bit better, I suppose.

Banco, the Captiva/Antara is made also by Daewoo in Korea...

Ye-es, but released under GM ownership.  Yeah sure I didn't say it wasn't. Nevertheless, it is a higher quality offering and sits better in the Chevrolet family than any of the knackered old Daewoo products based on previous generation Opels.
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:27 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 24):
Oh, don't be an arse. I was just adding more information.

Okay Editor Banco.  Silly
 
CaptOveur
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:40 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 22):
Why are we stuck with underpowered Fusions, Five Hundreds, Impalas, and Grand Prix, while the Australians down under get some sweet Fords and Holdens?

Thank the EPA

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 22):
That a $60,000 BMW can handle better then a $30,000 Pontiac?

The point was if they want to make a BMW knockoff, why not make a BMW knockoff.. Instead of something that resembles a BMW and probably floats down the road like GMs past rear drive offerings.
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N1120A
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:31 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):

That Mazda is simply a rebadged Ford.

Actually, pretty much every good Ford product is a rebadged Mazda.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 7):
The new G8 is a Charger killer

And? For the G8 to be anything, it needs to be aimed at Japanese and German cars.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 8):
Pontiac is destined to be full of FWD 4-cylinder boat anchors.

Well, they do have the Solstice, which is an excellent car.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
20 years ago nobody in their right mind would touch one

Actually, you should make that 30-40 years ago. The Japanese were already doing very well in 1988.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):

GM is also the majority owner of German car maker Opel.

Opel (along with Vauxhaul in the UK) is the EU branding for most of GM.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
If GM was to consolidate on only three brands or so, what would become of Opel?

No effect. The post was US centric, where most of their problems are.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
BTW: Shouldn't GM be in bankruptcy by now? They've been making losses year after year, and they still don't file for Chapter 11.

GM is an absolutely massive company with huge cash reserves and lots of banks willing to lend them money to keep them afloat. That is why they haven't gone into reorganization.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 17):
A Motor Trend reviewer: "If the experience recalls any other car, it's the previous-generation BMW M5, which also had a six-speed stick, 400 horses, and a wonderfully communicative chassis."

The previous-generation comment sums it up. Further, I want to see if they end up being like the last generation Camaros did. Sounding like a truck and going like a Corolla after 3-4 years.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):

The Corvette is not branded or sold as a Chevy in Europe.

I would also venture to say that even Americans don't instantly think "Chevy" when they think "Corvette"

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 20):

A BMW 550i and Mercedes E500 was road tested against the VE Holden Calais V (basically the luxury vesrion of the the Pontiac G8 you will receive). The result was that the Holden had better ride and handling - and for $100K less

$100K would definately not be the difference in the US.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 22):
That a $60,000 BMW can handle better then a $30,000 Pontiac?

Dude, a $19,000 MINI, designed by BMW, will out handle a $50,000 Corvette, let alone a $30,000 Pontiac.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 26):

Thank the EPA

Nah, that isn't it. Thank the car companies for their long time policy of trying to make money on parts and not cars themselves.
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CupraIbiza
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:53 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Actually, pretty much every good Ford product is a rebadged Mazda.

You mean the Fords you know of. Falcon and Territory

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
And? For the G8 to be anything, it needs to be aimed at Japanese and German cars.

It is

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 20):

A BMW 550i and Mercedes E500 was road tested against the VE Holden Calais V (basically the luxury vesrion of the the Pontiac G8 you will receive). The result was that the Holden had better ride and handling - and for $100K less

$100K would definately not be the difference in the US.

You ignore the salient point that the GM product was deemed to ride and handle than the BMW/Mercedes benz
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N1120A
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:59 am



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 28):

You mean the Fords you know of. Falcon and Territory

The Fords in Ford's biggest market. Their best products are either Mazda or Ford of Europe designs.

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 28):

You ignore the salient point that the GM product was deemed to ride and handle than the BMW/Mercedes benz

And who did the testing? Further, what were the criteria?
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CupraIbiza
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:09 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 28):

You mean the Fords you know of. Falcon and Territory

The Fords in Ford's biggest market. Their best products are either Mazda or Ford of Europe designs.

Ford could have them in Fords biggest market. They for whatever reason choose not to

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 28):

You ignore the salient point that the GM product was deemed to ride and handle than the BMW/Mercedes benz

And who did the testing? Further, what were the criteria?

Wheels Magazine Cant tell you the exact criteria it was some time ago that I read the magazine
Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:18 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
I would also venture to say that even Americans don't instantly think "Chevy" when they think "Corvette"

Yes they do. What the heck are you thinking? We say Chevrolet Corvette and go to Chevy dealer...what more do you want.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Dude, a $19,000 MINI, designed by BMW, will out handle a $50,000 Corvette, let alone a $30,000 Pontiac.

Hahaha...that was funny. You can outhandle a mini in a SMART also on a slalom probably, nothing but pure physical dimension of the vehicle. Skidpad rating is .87g anyways, which happens to be the same as a Solstice Red Line and less than a standard issue Corvette. Even if I compare the MCS to something like a Dodge SRT4 the slalom and skidpad is the same so lets not get too ahead of ourselves  Silly
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:22 am

GM made measurable profits outside of the USA. Their true looes are from USA car production and major losses with it's major interest in GMAC, a financial services company. GMAC was originally created in the 1920's for car loans, but from the 1980's became a major lender for home mortgages and home equity loans, both areas of high risk right now. Still, the biggest issue for them long term is the retiree pension and medical costs.
GM is considering huge 'early retirement' buyouts, but those that took it would give up their pensions and retirement health insurance costs. Until 'universal' health care comes to existence in the USA, the big 3 will continue to have huge losses. GM should consider ditching their duplicate brands and models and cut out about 1/3 of thier dealers, like Chrysler recently proposed.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:52 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
The previous-generation comment sums it up.

Not hardly - are you saying the previous generation M5 is not an incredible sports sedan? Bullshit - the thing is an absolute beast. The G8 isn't going to be priced like the current M5 (or the last generation, mind you) - not anywhere NEAR the price, so why are you expecting it to be the same thing? It's not going to be, it's not supposed to. Really, the very fact that this $30K vehicle reminds Motor Trend of the previous gen M5 is extremely impressive regarding it's performance and capabilities, especially considering the price. Expect some major bang for the buck, not the mirror of a BMW instead - that's what American cars will give you if you shop smart. If I wanted a beast of a sedan, I'll take the G8 over any BMW and be a lot wealthier in the process, thank you.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Further, I want to see if they end up being like the last generation Camaros did. Sounding like a truck and going like a Corolla after 3-4 years

Going like a Corolla - wow.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
I would also venture to say that even Americans don't instantly think "Chevy" when they think "Corvette"

I've venture to say that you're dead wrong.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
$100K would definately not be the difference in the US.

The difference will be big enough.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Dude, a $19,000 MINI, designed by BMW, will out handle a $50,000 Corvette, let alone a $30,000 Pontiac.

Lame, just a lame comparison. There's no point to that, at all. The Mini is a lowered golf cart with a sporty suspension - it better handle damn well. A kid down my street has an RC car that could out-handle a Mini - woop-dee-freaking doo.

And since you seem to like underestimating Corvettes, a $70K C6 Z06 was able beat the hell out of many top European performers (worth many times as much, and including the 911 turbo) not only on the straights, but on the track as well.

It's a common misconception about the new Vettes - the older generations were all about straight and fast, the C6 is about flat out amazing performance in all areas, and it has done exceptionally well.

And now guess what you get to look forward to:





Fastest production vehicle ever built by GM - will be an AMAZING performer for just $100k. Bring it on.



-NWA742

[Edited 2008-02-12 20:58:18]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:07 am

In reality the Z51R is nice...even too nice for my taste, but the new CTS-V is the car I would like to really have.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:10 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 34):
but the new CTS-V is the car I would like to really have.

Hell yes - I would take that over any beemer as well.



The 09 will have 550hp and 550 ft. lbs. of torque.  crazy 




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
davestanKSAN
Posts: 1532
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:49 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 33):

 drool  Speaking of beasts, that thing is pure sexy.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 33):
The G8 isn't going to be priced like the current M5 (or the last generation, mind you)

Well, you can get a used E39 (older generation) M5 for less than $30,000. I know you're talking about new though.

Anyway, I really hope GM can turn this around. I've never been the biggest GM fan, but I hope they can turn around this loss.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:37 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Actually, pretty much every good Ford product is a rebadged Mazda.

  

There is no Mazda variant of the Crown Victoria or Mustang.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 35):
Hell yes - I would take that over any beemer as well.

  

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 26):
Thank the EPA

They can all go to hell. If they had their way, we'd all be driving in little VWs.

Most of GM's financial woes is due to health-care cost. If we had national health-care, this wouldn't be a problem. This is an expense the Germans, French, Swedish and Japanese don't have to worry about.

[Edited 2008-02-12 23:43:22]
Bring back the Concorde
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:41 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 36):
Anyway, I really hope GM can turn this around. I've never been the biggest GM fan, but I hope they can turn around this loss.

Definitely - it's for the best with regards to competition and our economy.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:08 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 36):
Anyway, I really hope GM can turn this around. I've never been the biggest GM fan, but I hope they can turn around this loss.

I think the shit hit the fan at GM when they dropped the F-Bodies...at least that was the final straw in my eyes. I went to a Mopar product recently just because there was not anything on the market for me that GM made.

I also believe the tide is turning and over the last year we have been seeing a really strong turn into the right direction. The new Malibu for example is an exemplary vehicle and not just a car rental fleet vehicle anymore. The new CTS is great, with finally a mid level V6 that has positioned itself in the upper levels of performance. Even my hatred for crossovers as big as it is I admit the GMC Acadia is not half bad.

There is some weeding need to be done, the Saturn Relay/Terazza/Uplander has been cut, thank god because this was a really tragic car and ugly as hell. Someone has to address exactly why Saturn is building SUVs though, I would transfer this to GMC or Chevy at least. Pontiac just cannot have plastic crap like the G5 when you have the Cobalt/SS on the Chevy side that is competing for the same thing. Infact since Pontiac cant do anything right these days...hell they even had to make a stupid crossover in the name of the Torrent they should just go to Holden and rebadge everything until they learn how to do it right. We are seeing this already with Saturn and Opel so lets continue on with the trend.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 32):
GM should consider ditching their duplicate brands and models and cut out about 1/3 of thier dealers, like Chrysler recently proposed.

It really is bad, there is no need to have 5 dealers in town even under the same name offering different products. In GMs defence this really is a tad harder to implement than at Chrysler. There you have much less models and you dont sell specialized products like GM Light/Medium duty trucks, and certainly you dont have a brand that just makes SUV/Pickups. The problem in my eyes is space, take for example here in Daytona where we have Jon Hall Automotive Group who has probably 4 different GM dealers under its wing and every one of them specializes in a different GM brand...it really is a pain in the ass when youre in the mood of seeing an Trailblazer, Envoy, 9-7X and then a Enclave and you have to go to 4 different dealers to compare them.

In my eyes, you would have 4 divisions:

1. Pickups/SUVs/Crossover crap if needed to battle this infestation of German/Jap trash. People are stupid these days, they say SUV and buy an (GMC)
2. Luxury/luxury performance spearheaded the Europeans/Japanese. Keep the Deville/DTS whatever, the senior citizen population in America is growing, and their soft asses dont want a frankfurterauto (Cadillac),
3. One for raw power that would finally freaking target Mopar and smaller nimble power. To a lesser extent Ford, I dont know WTF they are even doing when the only thing they got is the Mustang. This Fusion, Taurus/500 Whatever crap is shit compared to even a couple years back when they had a real car in the Mercury Marauder. Only god can save them, or some genius figuring out they need Ford Europe here in the USA. And what the hell is this new Focus in the USA? Jesus christ Id rather drive a Civic. The General really had the strong hand in the 90s in this, Chrysler couldnt make anything that made over 200hp...and the Ford Mustang in those times didnt have jack on LT1 and early LS1 motors. They had to supercharge to get anything worthy out of a Mustang. Now we have no new RWD past the G8, the GTO was killed...too bad because I loved that car although it should not have been named the GTO for American grandpa nostalagia reasons. What in tarnations is GM doing, giving us an Impala SS/Grand Prix GXP with FWD? Please leave that pussyfication to the Japanese. Also quit calling everything the SS. No need to have a Silverado SS or a Trailblazer SS if you cant even beat a god damn Jeep on a straightaway, no SS badge belongs on a Cobalt. On the nimble power pump something out like the Solstice Supercharged and take on these midlife crisis S2000/Boxster/SLK douchebags (Pontiac)
4. One brand to target the econoboxes of Japan/Korea and to an extent the Germans. Continue creating such stuff like the new Malibu, create already a worthy smaller sedan instead of Daewoofying yourself damnit. A Mini Malibu is what we need to take this worthless crap called the Fit/Yaris/Versa/xA trash off our roads forever. You make a good American sedan past the Malibu, something smaller and thats it. First lesson, you want to put a god damn navigation system in a car like the Malibu if you want to battle an Accord or Camry in the year of 2008 A.D. Borrow some ideas from Opel if your stuck. (Chevrolet)

Main Points in my eyes:
-We dont need minivans again from you General, just concede to Chrysler that you dont have stow and go and 2000 TVs.
-We dont need Saturn or Buick, money losing redundency.
-Corvette stays where it is, and it continues to whoop Jap/Euro snob ass at Wal-Mart prices. The only thing I worry is new Dodge Viper, although not so much because they are slightly out of price league.
-Trash the fleet/car rentals and redundancy, Aura/G5/G6/Grand Prix/Tahoe/Trailblazer etc.
-Someone address the fact that Chrysler is going to spank your ass soon when they themselves stop making rental plastic like the Avenger and Compass.
-Ban anything that doesnt output 300+hp on a RWD or AWD platform as an SS.
-WTF is OnStar doing still in 2008? Ive never EVER EVER EVER heard of anyone EVER having this past the complimentary period.
-Install Navigations in every model, of course in some lower priced models only in upper trim but make it available damnit.
-Start Direct Injecting V6s.
-Stop producing shitty DOD (Displacement on Demand) V8s like in the Impala SS and Grand Prix GXP.
-Stop producing anything thats labeled as performance as FWD. Look in your hat, Holden is there.
-Bring us the GM version of the European Focus and we shall buy. Ford cant figure out how to bring a Ford Focus ST to the USA...instead they bring the shit SVT to our market where the masses want more power than God himself.
-Start working on something viable for fuel economy, disperse Hybrids to battle Japs in short run then kill them already with something worthy of 40mpg on the god damn highway also.
-Address the WRX STI/EVO duopoly....wait nevermind who the hell cares...they are getting their asses whooped by the likes of a "Ford Focus" and Peugeot of all things in WRC where it counts.
-Stop Daewoofying us for my dead greatgrandmothers sake. In America we have a company that already Daewoofies and makes possibly the shittiest vehicles available in our dealer car lots: Suzuki.
-Make a viable Diesel, if you can take from Isuzu to make a truck diesel...you can learn from someone else to make a good diesel to be used in a car. God damn it, the largest auto company in the world cant make a emission legal diesel for the largest and its home car market.
-Someone kill the HHR, it looks like a hearse mated with a USPS car!
-Since its inception ive seen maybe 2 Buick LaCrosses on the road, why does this car exist? For who and what reason?!


Im sick and tired of this Japanese/German crap that gives out an ignition note that of my HP laptop booting up and then the exhaust note of my girlfriends hairdryer. Will someone please bring back real RWD cars that would make me want to salute The General once more.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:14 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39):
why does this car exist? For who and what reason?!

For those who want the power and performance of the 5.3 V8 is a smaller car without the 'bling' and plastic moldings of the Pontiac.
Keep in mind, I am only talking about the LaCrosse witht he 5.3 V8, not the V6.
I've always liked Buick better than Pontiac.
Bring back the Concorde
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:17 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
For those who want the power and performance of the 5.3 V8 is a smaller car without the 'bling' and plastic moldings of the Pontiac.
Keep in mind, I am only talking about the LaCrosse witht he 5.3 V8, not the V6.
I've always liked Buick better than Pontiac.

You liked my post, just admit it damnit.

I know Superfly thats what its there for. But that amounts to 20 people in America. That LaCross can be just shifted over to Cadillac and sold under that brand name or put that mid range DOD V8 into a CTS.

This isnt the time to screw around with specialized models for a handful of people to buy like the LaCrosse. Exactly what is killing GM.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:26 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
That LaCross can be just shifted over to Cadillac and sold under that brand name

NO!
That would be terrible. Cadillac shouldn't have anything below the CTS.
Most of the Cadillac line are great cars but honestly I think they should have been Oldsmobiles. Cadillac should be in the high-end luxury market with Jaguar, Mercedes S-class and BMW 7-series. That is where they used to be.
The Buick Lacrosse is in it's rightful place and GM has come around with some good cars and people do buy them.
Again, their financial woes is due to our government neglecting it's responsibility to it's people and not providing health-care. All the competition's government has taken care of the this. This US auto manufactures face unfair competition. The EPA on top of that doesn't help either yet Germany and Japan are free to import as many gas-guzzlers as they want.
Bring back the Concorde
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:28 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 31):
We say Chevrolet Corvette and go to Chevy dealer...what more do you want.

I think Kerbeck's website sums it up. They identify as Kerbeck Corvette, not Kerbeck Chevy.

http://www.kerbeck.com/

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 31):
You can outhandle a mini in a SMART also on a slalom probably, nothing but pure physical dimension of the vehicle.

The Mini's basic design is what makes it such a good handling car, not the physical dimension. Wheels at the corners make a massive difference.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 33):

Not hardly - are you saying the previous generation M5 is not an incredible sports sedan?

No

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 33):

I've venture to say that you're dead wrong.

I wouldn't

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 33):

Going like a Corolla - wow.

That post was a bit hyperbolic. Safe to say, every Camaro I have driven that was more than 3-4 years old has had significantly less pick-up than a newer one.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 33):
The Mini is a lowered golf cart with a sporty suspension - it better handle damn well.

And the Corvette is supposed to be a sports car. It should handle a lot better.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):

There is no Mazda variant of the Crown Victoria or Mustang.

Point made Larry  Wink
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:32 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
Point made Larry

Cute.  Smile

The best Fords are the Mustang and Crown Victoria.
Excluding trucks, they are the best money makers for Ford and has the most loyal and repeat customers.
Bring back the Concorde
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:36 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
No

So don't you think it's quite impressive that such a lower cost sedan is offering 400HP M5-like performance?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
I wouldn't

Then I'd say you need to rethink your position. The Corvette has been the pride and joy of Chevy for a long time now. Chevy & Corvette are most likely the first things people think of when either of the two words are mentioned.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
Safe to say, every Camaro I have driven that was more than 3-4 years old has had significantly less pick-up than a newer one.

The last "newer one" was made in 2002 - what year Camaros have you driven? I've driven both LS1 and LT1 equipped F-bodies with well over 100K on their clocks, and they still moved quite well.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
And the Corvette is supposed to be a sports car. It should handle a lot better.

Like I said before, previous generation Vettes were all about straight line performance. The new C6 generation has performed insanely well on the line and on the track - look it up before you underestimate that vehicle. Remember, a RWD $70K Z06 was able to beat an AWD Porsche 911 Turbo on the TRACK...........imply again the Corvette isn't a high-performance, well handling sports car, please.




-NWA742

[Edited 2008-02-13 00:36:49]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:36 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
NO!
That would be terrible. Cadillac shouldn't have anything below the CTS.
Most of the Cadillac line are great cars but honestly I think they should have been Oldsmobiles. Cadillac should be in the high-end luxury market with Jaguar, Mercedes S-class and BMW 7-series. That is where they used to be.
The Buick Lacrosse is in it's rightful place and GM has come around with some good cars and people do buy them.
Again, their financial woes is due to our government neglecting it's responsibility to it's people and not providing health-care. All the competition's government has taken care of the this. This US auto manufactures face unfair competition. The EPA on top of that doesn't help either yet Germany and Japan are free to import as many gas-guzzlers as they want.

I cant disagree with you on the latter. But I disagree that Buick/Oldsmobile should be around in the year of 2008 when those douchebags at Lexus and Acura are knocking on our door and our Soccer Moms who cant place Japan on a map and have MTV IQs are thinking the RX4**h hybrids are the saviors of the planet.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
The Mini's basic design is what makes it such a good handling car, not the physical dimension. Wheels at the corners make a massive difference.

If it was such a basic design and with wheels on corner it should develop a skidpad rating of much higher than .87g.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
I think Kerbeck's website sums it up. They identify as Kerbeck Corvette, not Kerbeck Chevy.

http://www.kerbeck.com/

ROFL Comeone Reza WTF is this crap youre giving me. Sometimes you make me laugh, you expect me to believe because a dealer labels their car a Kerbeck Corvette people dont see it as a Chevy....haha

I pulled this from their site:



Apparently they are called Kerbeck Chevrolet Cadillac for a reason. I just posted that for your amusement and mine because at 330am I have absolutely nothing better to do.
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:43 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
Agreed. It looks like whatever that Pontiac you posted wants to be a BMW

It's just an altered version of the Holden Commodore, designed and built in Australia. European cars were used as a benchmark as Australians tend to buy Euros, particularly at the luxury end, or Japanese cars if not buying the locally built ones.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:54 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 47):
It's just an altered version of the Holden Commodore, designed and built in Australia. European cars were used as a benchmark as Australians tend to buy Euros, particularly at the luxury end, or Japanese cars if not buying the locally built ones

In all honesty, what we really need is the Holden Commodore HSV GTS/Senator Series with the LS2 V8 jacking out 412hp, 12 more than the previous gen in the GTO/Monaro.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:21 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Dude, a $19,000 MINI, designed by BMW

I would think that the designers at now defunct Rover would have a bit of a row with you about saying the Mini was designed by BMW.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.

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