SBBRTech
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Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:47 pm

This is about that old dispute between Macedonia and Greece and what name the former Yugo-country will use.
This made a lot of noise in the region during the 90s and I almost found it to be ridiculous but my Greek friends would never let me think less of it. Now it seems that the UN is trying once again to set a final solution (how long can "final" solutions last in the Balkans anyway?) after the Greek threat of voting against Macedonia's NATO membership next April.

Here are the proposed names to substitute the actual "Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia":

1) Constitutional Republic of Macedonia
2) Democratic Republic of Macedonia
3) Independent Republic of Macedonia
4) New Republic of Macedonia
5) Republic of the Upper Macedonia


I say name 2 or 3 are more likely to be chosen, which would you pick?
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signol
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:58 pm

Why can't they both just be Macedonia? After all, there's a province of Belgium called "Luxemburg" that borders the country of "Luxemburg"?
Or why not rename Greece "Southern Macedonia"?  duck 

signol
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gkirk
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:06 pm



Quoting Signol (Reply 2):
Or why not rename Greece "Southern Macedonia"? duck

Or go the Ryanair way and call it Macedonia (France East)  duck 
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B747forever
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:54 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Thread starter):
3) Independent Republic of Macedonia

Really like that one.
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EL-AL
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:45 pm

What about just Macedonia?

So there is a district in Greece called the same and the name is originally Greek, so what? Where is a damage to have a country with the same name? I do not think that many Israelis even know that there is in area in northern Greece called Macedonia, when we refer the country we just say Macedonia (Makadonia in Hebrew) and all maps say just "Macedonia" also.

With all my respect to the Greek culture and history, I think it's time for Greek politicians to grew up and to allow their northern neighbor to have a normal name.
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JoKeR
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:25 pm

I honestly sympathize with both sides... national pride at stake in both countries, BUT, why not have the following.

Let the Greek Macedonia stay and be written as Macedonia, while the ex-Yugoslav Macedonians can write their state as Makedonia - Republic of Makedonia. That is how you pronounce it in Macedonian anyway.

That way, both parties would be happy no?
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TWFirst
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:27 pm

I think it should be renamed Phyllis.


Or Betty.
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KLMA330
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:08 pm

I think Greeks need to focus on more important things that will help their country
and stop splitting hairs and waisting time on names.

sheesh... priorities anyone?
 
LH423
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:58 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Thread starter):
2) Democratic Republic of Macedonia

My only problem with that would be the penchant for countries that are wholly undemocratic to name themselves that. North Korea and the former East Germany (Deutsche Demokratische Republik). Granted, I claim ignorance on the current state of politics and democracy in the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".

LH423
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ac888yow
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 7):
I think Greeks need to focus on more important things that will help their country
and stop splitting hairs and waisting time on names.

sheesh... priorities anyone?

Thanks. We'll take your advice under consideration.

Back to the topic, I pick 3 or 4.
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:35 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Thread starter):
the actual "Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia":

-
as you can see in their government-WEBsite www.vlada.mk/english/index_en.htm the name of the country is
REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:53 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 5):
Let the Greek Macedonia stay and be written as Macedonia, while the ex-Yugoslav Macedonians can write their state as Makedonia - Republic of Makedonia.

-
whatever, Makedonia and Macedonia are the same, and to give an example, in German it anyway is Mazedonien and in French Macedoine. The trouble simply is that the Greeks canNOT accept that Macedonia in 1912 was divided between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece.
-
Here the area in 1881
-
 
Toast
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:09 am

Since my previous posts evidently violated the unwritten rule #22, "Under no circumstances shall you use humor; smilies that indicate jokes or friendly banter shall entail immediate deletion of your post", I'll re-state my opinion in the most serious way possible. Believe me, any trace of humor in the following passage is purely coincidental.

Quoting Signol (Reply 1):
After all, there's a province of Belgium called "Luxemburg" that borders the country of "Luxemburg"?

Correct. Furthermore, both Belgium and the Netherlands have provinces called Limburg. Nobody cares.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 4):
With all my respect to the Greek culture and history, I think it's time for Greek politicians to grew up and to allow their northern neighbor to have a normal name.

My sentiments exactly. I have the utmost respect for Ionic columns, Vestal Virgins, Socrates and feta cheese, but the attitude of the current Greek government smacks ever so slightly of βλακεια and immaturity combined with a bizarre obsession with ancient history. I would most respectfully suggest that the senescent Peripatetics who gave birth to this Megaran komoedia review their intake of ouzo and Delphic fumes and find themselves a more appropriate occupation.

 twocents 
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connies4ever
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:36 am



Quoting Signol (Reply 1):
Why can't they both just be Macedonia? After all, there's a province of Belgium called "Luxemburg" that borders the country of "Luxemburg"?
Or why not rename Greece "Southern Macedonia"? duck

signol

I'm with Signol. Just calling it simply "Macedonia" is fine with me. Now, if they REALLY want to irritate the Greeks, they could call themselves "North Greece".
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IFlyTWA
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:13 am

I believe the name should remain Republic of Macedonia and that only the people of Macedonia should decide if they want the name changed.
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doug_or
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:58 am

Macedonia: Time for the Greeks to get over it.
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Boeing744
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:11 am



Quoting LH423 (Reply 8):
My only problem with that would be the penchant for countries that are wholly undemocratic to name themselves that. North Korea and the former East Germany (Deutsche Demokratische Republik). Granted, I claim ignorance on the current state of politics and democracy in the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".

That's exactly what I thought.

I think the Independent Republic of Macedonia sounds the best. They use the Cyrillic alphabet, no? Anyone know how that would look in Macedonian?
 
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PA110
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:25 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 16):
I think the Independent Republic of Macedonia sounds the best. They use the Cyrillic alphabet, no? Anyone know how that would look in Macedonian?

See the official government website here: http://www.vlada.mk/index.html
The name "Vlada na Republika Makedonija" translates to Government of the Republic of Macedonia

Macedonia spells its name Makedonija.
Greece spells its province Makedonia.

Oddly enough, the folks in the Republic of Macedonia refer to the Greek Macedonian province as "Aegean Macedonia"

[Edited 2008-02-22 20:32:15]
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Boeing744
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:35 am



Quoting PA110 (Reply 17):
The name "Vlada na Republika Makedonija" translates to Government of the Republic of Macedonia

Yeah, but that's the name of the government, not the country.

Anyone who can write the Independent Republic of Macedonia in Macedonian Cyrillic for us?
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:13 am



Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
Since my previous posts evidently violated the unwritten rule #22, "Under no circumstances shall you use humor; smilies that indicate jokes

Err your posts were deleted because they were racist and offensive and quite a few thought so including me !!! You were disrespectful and you know it !!!

For a full run down of both sides view for once Wikipedia has it about right and balanced:::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia

The name issue is nearly sorted anyway and final negotiations are taking place . The actual name doesnt really bother me as I believe the majority will just call it Macedonia. Its what is written on paper and treaties to un mistakably define the Greek province of Macedonia and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia ( Republic of Macedonia) that is more of a concern. There has to be concrete treaties to 100% define their borders with no other territorial claims to either parts of Bulgaria or Greece. Once that is in place then there will not be an issue.

What people are afraid of is seeing maps like this by extremist groups :::

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee141/swisstrip2007/fyrom.jpg

My cousin recently took part in an exchange program between Universites in Skopje and Athens and it was very successful. Both sides could air their views and to be honest there was not much arguement. Greece has huge investment in the country and on the whole the two countries share good relations and trade. I myself have friends from Skopje and Ohrid who study in Athens. So in time the both parties will come to an agreement that will suit them both. I think option 3 ''Independant Republic of Macedonia'' is the most likely and as I stated above it will be on paper and treaties only anyway.
 
IFlyTWA
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:47 am

That looks like a Bulgarian extremist map not a Macedonian one.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 18):
Anyone who can write the Independent Republic of Macedonia in Macedonian Cyrillic for us?

Самостојна Република Македонија

Article 8 from the Nimitz proposal stipulates that:

Neither country may have exclusivity over the name or word "Macedonia" and "Macedonian"

This means that we cannot have the "Macedonian language," "Macedonian culture," "Macedonian history," "Macedonian people," "ethnic Macedonian."

It would mean that we would always be:
"The language of the [agreed prefix here] Republic of Macedonia"
"The citizens of the [agreed prefix here] Republic of Macedonia"
"The culture of the [agreed prefix here] Republic of Macedonia"
and so on.

I believe this proposal attempts to eradicate the Macedonian ethnic identity.

[Edited 2008-02-23 02:48:19]
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:59 am



Quoting IFlyTWA (Reply 20):
I believe this proposal attempts to eradicate the Macedonian ethnic identity.

Not at all , the Greeks would have to play by the same rules.

"The language (dialect) of the Greek Province of Macedonia"
"The citizens of the Greek Province of Macedonia"
"The culture of the Greek Province of Macedonia"
and so on.

Sharing the name is the fairest way. No one has a right to solely claim ''Macedonia''.
 
Analog
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:03 am

If Greece wants Macedonia to be called FYROM, then Greece should call itself FTROG: the Former Turkish Republic of Greece. After all, Greece historically included part of what is now Turkey, so calling the country Greece can be construed as a claim on that land.  Smile
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:30 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 22):
If Greece wants Macedonia to be called FYROM,

If you read above ''FYROM'' does not appear in the list so it will probably be option 3  Wink ''FYROM'' was only an interim name until the dispute got settled. Realistically it was never going to remain that .
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:01 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 19):
maps like this

-
out of history
-
1910 :

-
1916 :

-

Quoting OA260 (Reply 19):
''Independant Republic of Macedonia''

Sure, but such things are for lawyers, scientists and politicians. People will speak about Macedonia and mean that formerly Yugoslav territory. Few people in normal life speak about the "Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft" / "Confederation Suisse" / "Confederazione Svizzera" / "Swiss Confederation" but rather about Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera/Switzerland. And while the "Bundesrepublik" got enlarged by reunification, the term is far less in use than in the past in favour of simply "Germany" .
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:09 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 23):
''FYROM'' was only an interim name until the dispute got settled. Realistically it was never going to remain that .

-
As I said above, it never was the official name of that country. It was used as a kind of technical "nickname" in international organisations to circumvent the Greek opposition.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:20 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
Sure, but such things are for lawyers, scientists and politicians. People will speak about Macedonia and mean that formerly Yugoslav territory

Yep your 100% correct. Leave it to the lawyers thats what we pay them for !!!
 
csavel
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:56 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 10):
as you can see in their government-WEBsite www.vlada.mk/english/index_en.htm the name of the country is
REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA

How is that more offensive to Greek sensibilities than the other choices? And as a zillioin people on A-net have pointed out, people are going to call it Macedonia anyway.

I don't get the stupidity of this kerfuffle.

But some good ole' boys down in Macon are getting ready to unload a can of whoop-ass in Tblisi.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:11 am

Formal names hardly matter. It comes down to colloquialisms and what we discuss over vodka tonics  Wink.

I'm partial to the Independent Constitutional Democratic Republic of Macedonia.

In all seriousness though this country is on my list of "small states to visit in the future given a few days of nothing else to do".
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bwest
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:23 am



Quoting Toast (Reply 12):

Correct. Furthermore, both Belgium and the Netherlands have provinces called Limburg. Nobody cares.

And we also share Brabant with Holland.

And the term Flanders is used in France (Frans-Vlaanderen), and Holland (Zeeuws-Vlaanderen), as historically these areas were part of the County of Flanders.

Quoting Analog (Reply 22):
If Greece wants Macedonia to be called FYROM, then Greece should call itself FTROG: the Former Turkish Republic of Greece. After all, Greece historically included part of what is now Turkey, so calling the country Greece can be construed as a claim on that land.

Well, if they play on history, they could just call themself the Byzantine Empire again... and then invade Turkey...
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:37 am



Quoting Bwest (Reply 29):
Well, if they play on history, they could just call themself the Byzantine Empire again... and then invade Turkey...

Very sensible remark certainly adds alot to the thread  Yeah sure

But if you really want to learn something here are a few websites for you to educate yourself as Im sure you read the other link above before you jumped in .  Yeah sure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia

United Macedonia (Macedonian: Обединета Македонија, Obedineta Makedonija) is an irredentist concept of Macedonian ethnic nationalism which aims to unify the transnational region of Macedonia in southeastern Europe, which ethnic Macedonian nationalists claim as their national homeland, and which they assert was wrongfully divided under the Treaty of Bucharest in 1913, into a single state under their rule with the Greek city of Thessaloniki (which they and other Slavs[1] refer to as Солун, Solun) as its capital.[2] The term has been in use since the early 1900s, notably in connection with the Balkan Communist Federation.

Although the following perception is not limited to ethnic Macedonians, or extreme nationalists, the majority of ethnic Macedonians usually break down the region of Macedonia as follows:

Vardar Macedonia (Вардарска Македонија) - the Republic of Macedonia.
Aegean Macedonia (Егејска Македонија) - the three Macedonian peripheries of northern Greece.
Pirin Macedonia (Пиринска Македонија) - the unofficial name of Blagoevgrad Province in southwestern Bulgaria
Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo (Мала Преспа и Голо Брдо) - an area in southeastern Albania corresponding roughly to the Korçë, Pogradec and Devoll districts (sometimes considered to be a part of Aegean Macedonia).
Gora and Prohor Pchinski (Гора и Прохор Пчински) - in southern Kosovo and Serbia (these subregions are sometimes considered to be a part of Vardar Macedonia).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute

The naming dispute between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia over the name of the latter, its main ethnic group, and their language has escalated to the highest point of international mediation, involving attempts to a resolution notably through the United Nations.

The provisional reference "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (FYROM) is currently always used in relations when states not recognizing the constitutional name are parties, although all UN member-states, and the UN as a whole, have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries.

The ongoing dispute is still pending full resolution and has created a great amount of political and academic argument for both sides.

Controversy and conflict
The borders of the present-day Republic of Macedonia were drawn in 1946 when the People's Republic of Macedonia was established as part of the newly proclaimed federal Yugoslav state under Josip Broz Tito. The issue of the republic's name immediately sparked controversy with Greece over concerns that it presaged a territorial claim on the Greek coastal region of Macedonia (see Territorial concerns below). The republic was later renamed the Socialist Republic of Macedonia but dropped the "Socialist" from its name when it declared independence from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in September 1991.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:45 am

or why not the republic of Serbs, Albanians and Bulgarians ?  Big grin
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:50 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 31):
or why not the republic of Serbs, Albanians and Bulgarians ?

Serboalbinobulgaroturkoromanovlachsothers Macedonia LOL.......Its starting to look like Welsh !!!
 
ALexeu
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:51 am

or the Skopje should be renamed Thessaloniki
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:01 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 33):
or the Skopje should be renamed Thessaloniki

HAHA it might as well be . The last times I flew from SKG it was mostly FYROMS / Skopians / Macedonians on my flight LOL.....
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:06 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
Correct. Furthermore, both Belgium and the Netherlands have provinces called Limburg. Nobody cares.

we also have a Limburg in Germany, Limburg an der Lahn.  Wink

Jan
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EL-AL
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:25 pm



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 28):
In all seriousness though this country is on my list of "small states to visit in the future given a few days of nothing else to do".

This is a good example of the way which many Americans look at the world, every place which is not in the USA looks for you americans as not interesting, boring, where you go when there is "nothing else to do". You will be surprised from what you can find in small counties, especially countries with such a long history as (Former yada yada yada...) Macedonia. I suggest that you may visit some small countries like Greece, Israel or Jordan, then you maybe think again before say there you should go there only when there is "nothing else to do".

I don't know why I am surprised at all. Whenever americans are been asked about things going on in the world out of the USA they know almost nothing. How many of your friends can show where Greece and Macedonia are on world map? I will never forget, that when I was in the US for the first time (in 2000) and I told someone I am from Israel, he asked my "what do you think about your president, Saddam Hussein?"

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 33):
or the Skopje should be renamed Thessaloniki

Well, if there food there will be as good as the food in Thessaloniki, I am fine with that.

There is an area in Israel Called the Jordan Vally (Hebrew: Bikat Hayarden), this name comes originally from the bible. Maybe the Israelis should ban Jordan (the kingdom) from using the name? (the area which is today Jordan was named "Trans-Jordan" by the British in 1922).
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:03 pm



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 36):
Maybe the Israelis should ban Jordan (the kingdom) from using the name? (the area which is today Jordan was named "Trans-Jordan" by the British in 1922).

I think the Israelis have more to worry about . When Palestine gets Independence and Jerusalem is their capital.
 
EL-AL
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:20 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
I think the Israelis have more to worry about

I think that names is the lest important problem in the Israel-Palestinian conflict. By the way, the Muslims do not call the Israeli capitol Jerusalem, but Al-Kuds, meaning "the holy". The arab name for Jerusalem, "Urshalim", is not used at all among the Palestinians. In Hebrew, we use the name Jerusalem, "Yerushalaiim", (ירושלים), name origin is from the Bible.
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IFlyTWA
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:30 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 30):
Quoting Bwest (Reply 29):
Well, if they play on history, they could just call themself the Byzantine Empire again... and then invade Turkey...

Very sensible remark certainly adds alot to the thread Yeah sure



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 31):
or why not the republic of Serbs, Albanians and Bulgarians ? Big grin



Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Serboalbinobulgaroturkoromanovlachsothers Macedonia LOL.......Its starting to look like Welsh !!!



Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
or the Skopje should be renamed Thessaloniki



Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
HAHA it might as well be . The last times I flew from SKG it was mostly FYROMS / Skopians / Macedonians on my flight LOL.....

The last four posts from you and AlexEU are really sensible. Not.

What's a FYROMS or Skopian? Sounds like racist derogatory remarks to me.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 30):
Although the following perception is not limited to ethnic Macedonians, or extreme nationalists, the majority of ethnic Macedonians usually break down the region of Macedonia as follows:

Of course they think of it in that way. Macedonians were the majority in most of Geographic Macedonia prior to Greek occupation. After the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest, the Macedonian place names that existed were gradually changed to Greek names and this included people's family and given names. They were no longer allowed to refer to themselves as Macedonian and were not allowed to speak the Macedonian language anymore. This was called Hellenization. It's sad because I've known brainwashed Macedonians from the Greek province of Macedonia who try so hard to be Greek and will be the first to say Macedonia is Greek, but still speak Macedonian amongst themselves. I personally know many Macedonian families that lost their property and were kicked out of the Greek province of Macedonia. To this day they are denied entry to Greece. Some are denied entry because their birth certificate has the ethnic Macedonian name of their town or village they were born in (Example: Lerin instead of Florina) and are told such a place doesn't exist in Greece. That is the main cause of Macedonian nationalism. Not Alexander the Great and not whatever happened thousands of years ago.

The Republic of Macedonia has conceded plenty. They even changed their flag because of Greece. What does Greece have to fear from a country that has a population of about 1.5 million Macedonians? There is no way that Greece is going to lose it's piece of Macedonia. I believe this whole name game is an attempt to cover up the existence of a Macedonian minority within Greek borders and the lack of basic human rights that they have received since Greece took over the province of Macedonia. I believe it is time for Greece to recognize the Republic of Macedonia under that name and to move on.

Just for fun here is what Greeks learned in school prior to 1992.

The following map is from a sophomore year high school geography book:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/Madness86/MK1.jpg

In the topic about Yugoslavia this encyclopedia says:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/Madness86/MK2.jpg

In the left column it refers to the ethnic composition of Yugoslavia, where among Serbs, Croats, etc, there were living Macedonians!

In the right column it refers to the languages spoken in Yugoslavia where besides Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian was spoken the non-existing Macedonian.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/Madness86/MK3.jpg

Here we have the components of the Yugoslav federation. One of the federal republics is Macedonia again.

All the Greeks who are now older than 35 years old were learning this at school.

After 1992 all the books were revised.

Excuse the long post. I am just trying to give the Macedonian point of view and why this seemingly ridiculous issue means so much to Macedonians.
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IFlyTWA
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:32 pm



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 28):
In all seriousness though this country is on my list of "small states to visit in the future given a few days of nothing else to do".

I would highly recommend visiting Macedonia. There are many interesting places to visit!
"To express the excitement of travel" - Eero Saarinen
 
csavel
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:47 pm



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 36):
This is a good example of the way which many Americans look at the world, every place which is not in the USA looks for you americans as not interesting, boring, where you go when there is "nothing else to do". You will be surprised from what you can find in small counties, especially countries with such a long history as (Former yada yada yada...) Macedonia. I suggest that you may visit some small countries like Greece, Israel or Jordan, then you maybe think again before say there you should go there only when there is "nothing else to do".

I don't know why I am surprised at all. Whenever Americans are been asked about things going on in the world out of the USA they know almost nothing. How many of your friends can show where Greece and Macedonia are on world map? I will never forget, that when I was in the US for the first time (in 2000) and I told someone I am from Israel, he asked my "what do you think about your president, Saddam Hussein?"

Frankly this is a good example of how non-Americans stereotype *ALL* Americans is ignorant gun totin' boobs because of one offhand comment that was pretty funny. note he meant Macedonia, which is off the beaten path in Europe and might have elicited a similar comment from a Brit, a Dane, or even an Israeli. Might not have been the most culturally aware, but give him a break. And I note he only mentioned Macedonia in this.

Now you could have of course called him on this and shown him the long history and the glories of Skopje, but you chose not to. What you chose to do was to categorize him and three hundred million others as ignorant assholes. (Many are, I must admit) Nor am I against calling out assholedness of US-ians and our faux Texan president in the most vigorous terms. That is not what is going on here.

When you say 'whenever Americans are being asked about things going on in the world out of the USA they know almost nothing." you're talking about me since I was born in New York, . You've never met me. You have no idea how well-travelled I am. We probably haven't even chatted with each other on A-net before, but to you, I am an ignorant arrogant asshole until proven otherwise. You already made an assumption about me because of where I am from.

How are you not doing the very same thing you chide others for.

PS, and I really don't want to get into a flamewar, but your story about someone asking you about Saddam Hussein, well let's just say I want to hear the context and where exactly this was.Sounds like a good FOAF story that winds up on Snopes.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting IFlyTWA (Reply 39):
The last four posts from you and AlexEU are really sensible. Not.

What's a FYROMS or Skopian? Sounds like racist derogatory remarks to me.

Funny because my Macedonian mates think its funny and have many funny names for Greeks also !!! So I think they should know if its ''racist'' or not. They DONT!!!

Quoting IFlyTWA (Reply 39):
Just for fun here is what Greeks learned in school prior to 1992.

The following map is from a sophomore year high school geography book:

Interesting that you only show the bits that YOU want people to see . I have many Greek school books from my youth that I used to study .

That part of Macedonia was always recognised as an area within Yugoslavia and when they broke up thats why the name FYROM was needed to show the difference between The Greek part and EX: Yugoslav part. When it was part of Yugoslavia there was no need to define it.

This is the map of the Greek prefectures which has always been the same :::





This is what the FYROM school books contain ::::


http://history-of-macedonia.com/word...istory-books-and-propaganda-facts/

Examples of excerpts of various schoolbooks are interesting:

In the second grade History book of secondary education, the map that
defines the national borders of Macedonia includes the current area
of the FYROM, Bulgarian Macedonia and an area of Greek territory, of
which its south-western utmost point begins from the Greek-Albanian
borders, it follows the ridge of mountain Olympus and continues along
the whole Aegean coastal area, up to the bordering lines of
prefectures Kavala and Xanthi.

No essential change in the handbooks is marked since the Interim
Accord was signed in 1995. According to the Agreement "Each Party
shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities
or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by
private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility
against each other".

In 1996-97 the Maternal Language and History books continue repeating
the same stereotype: "the distinct element of the Macedonian Nation
and the vision of liberating the remaining parts of Macedonia, that
politically belong in the neighboring states of the FYROM".

The text reading of the total eight grades of public education, as
well as the handbooks of linguistic exercises, present the geographic
area of the three administrative sections of the Ottoman Empire in
Europe, during the 19th C, as the paternal hearth of the neighboring
state's population.

The Reading text of 8th grade, referring to the Vilaets of
Thessaloniki, Monastiri, Kosovo-Skopje, the area of "Greater
Macedonia", states: "Macedonian land, land of the Fathers, land of
the Ancestors, from Ohrid to the Aegean and to Pirin".

Equally characteristic, for the stereotype "Macedonia" and the
consecutive fabricated arguments that are cultivated in the students
of the FYROM, are also the verses included in the 2nd grade Reader of
public education:

"To Macedonia with love: From Pelister to Pirin, from Vroutok to the
white Aegean, three flowers - a bouquet of flowers, a united nation.
Macedonia, dear land! Beautiful land since many centuries, your name
awakens love, a heart in three flowers, it offers us much love,
Macedonia, name eternal!"

Perhaps however, more indicative of the poem's intention to maintain
and preserve these feelings of "national unfairness", is the question
of the text's comprehension which follows: "Pay attention to the
verse "a heart in three flowers ". Which heart are we talking about?
Which are the three flowers the poet sings

The researchers of these books observe that the books of History
cultivate feelings of irredentism and national indignation in a
greater degree than any other text, targeting the neighboring
populations such as Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs. The picture of
an "occupied Macedonia of the Aegean" and an "oppressed Macedonian
minority" in the Greek territory, totally dominates all texts.

Also in frequent use are the terms "anti-
Macedonians" , "assimilation" , "oppression" , "prohibition" , "denational
ization" and "cruelty". Indicative examples:

The "bad" Greeks

------------------------------------------------

It is evident that the maps of various school books demonstrate in a subtle, but clear manner that The FYROM Slavs do not recognize Hellenic sovereignty over the Greek part of Macedonia, Macedonia Proper; this is the reason they insist on calling it Aegean Macedonia and not Greek or Hellenic Macedonia. It also violates the Interim Agreement signed by both Greece and The FYROM and the Constitution of The FYROM itself -- amendment replacing and clarifying article 49 of the said Constitution. The dream and the goal of The FYROM Slavs are the incorporation of the Hellenic part of Macedonia into their newly independent country with the city of Thessaloniki as the first prize.

http://www.panmacedonian.info/FYROM%20History%20Books.htm

------------------------------------------------
 
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bwest
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:39 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 30):
Very sensible remark certainly adds alot to the thread Yeah sure

My most humble apologies... I shall remember to use absolutely no humour at all anymore. Please note that this was just a small humorously intended remark at the end of my post. I do agree that you can argue about the level of the humour used, but that's of course purely subjective.

Tthe first part of the post was intended to be informative to show that countries can share same name for regions, provinces or whatever without having to go into endless debates to whom the name belongs. I haven't seen Belgium asking France, Holland and Germany to hand over territory. Nor did I see these countries asking the same to Belgium. (trying very hard not to make the obvious WW jokes...).

And no, I didn't click on the Wikipedia link before I posted. I do however inform myself through various other media that give me a fairly comprehensible overview of the Macedonian situation and the Greek stand on this.
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EL-AL
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:29 am

RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting Csavel (Reply 41):
What you chose to do was to categorize him and three hundred million others as ignorant assholes

I did not do that. I wrote:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 36):
This is a good example of the way which many Americans look at the world

Not all americans, not 90% of americans, but "many Americans". you are saying yourself

Quoting Csavel (Reply 41):
Many are, I must admit

so we wrote the exact same thing. I do not like to say "all americans" just as i dont like to say "all arabs" or "all israelis". I did not meet all 300,000,000 US citizens, so I can't characterize them all. But for someone who know America, been there several times, have family in the US and uses the American media this is the impression which I got about them.

All I said is that many americans don't know much about what is going on out of the US. One thing I can think of now is seeing something I got on e-mail, a movie asked americans to point out North Korea on world map and they all pointed on Australia, its not saying something about all americans but its one example. The knowledge of the American President about International affairs do not add much respect to the residents of the US. You are saying "ignorant assholes" while all I said is that they don't know much about other places.

I was very much insulted when this guy wrote that there are small countries that you sould go visit there when there is nothing better to do. I am a resident if a small country (Israel is at the size of Long Island) and I think there is quite some things to see in my homeland.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 41):
PS, and I really don't want to get into a flamewar, but your story about someone asking you about Saddam Hussein, well let's just say I want to hear the context and where exactly this was.Sounds like a good FOAF story that winds up on Snopes.

On my second day in the US, I went to see an aviation museum somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area, and when me and my father started our tour the tour guide asked where everyone is from, and I said that we are Israelis. Few minuets after a member of the group, said before that that he is from Oregon, asked my father (I was 15) what does he think about our President, Saddam Hussien. My father told him that Saddam Hussien is the President of Iraq.
every day is a good day to fly
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:51 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 43):
My most humble apologies... I shall remember to use absolutely no humour at all anymore. Please note that this was just a small humorously intended remark at the end of my post. I do agree that you can argue about the level of the humour used, but that's of course purely subjective.

Ok I apologise also. I didn't get the humour !! Maybe if you had have put an icon I would have taken it differently.  Smile


I also keep hearing on these boards that ''civilised'' nations should not incite hatred or racist language against any other nation. Namely in the Kosovo thread and talking about Serbia . I quote from above ''

Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
The researchers of these books observe that the books of History
cultivate feelings of irredentism and national indignation in a
greater degree than any other text, targeting the neighboring
populations such as Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs. The picture of
an "occupied Macedonia of the Aegean" and an "oppressed Macedonian
minority" in the Greek territory, totally dominates all texts.

Also in frequent use are the terms "anti-
Macedonians" , "assimilation" , "oppression" , "prohibition" , "denational
ization" and "cruelty". Indicative examples:

The "bad" Greeks

They say things like ''bad Greeks'' in their history books to teach school children and they want to join the EU !!!
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4159
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:19 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 29):
Holland



Quoting Bwest (Reply 29):
Holland

 no 

Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
the Netherlands

 yes 

 Wink @Bwest
Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 13237
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:23 pm



Quoting IFlyTWA (Reply 20):
Neither country may have exclusivity over the name or word "Macedonia" and "Macedonian"

This means that we cannot have the "Macedonian language," "Macedonian culture," "Macedonian history," "Macedonian people," "ethnic Macedonian."

I don't read it to mean that at all. It simply means both countries have the right to use the words "Macedonia" and "Macedonian".
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bwest
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:54 am

RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:25 pm



Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 46):


Quoting Bwest (Reply 29):
Holland



Quoting Bwest (Reply 29):
Holland

no

Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
the Netherlands

yes

Wink @Bwest

Ollander...

 Wink

Quote:
"Holland" is also informally used in English and other languages, including sometimes the Dutch language itself, to mean the whole of the modern country of the Netherlands.

But I'll try to change my bad habits  Smile
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IFlyTWA
Posts: 227
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:29 pm

RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:55 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 45):
They say things like ''bad Greeks'' in their history books to teach school children and they want to join the EU !!!

Can you please show me a picture of the page in the book where it says that?

I could be true but I would like to see proof.

I don't trust anything coming from racist propaganda group known as Pan-Macedonian Association. Especially since most of it's membership is full of "Grkomani" (Brainwashed Macedonians), Prosfigas and Vlachs who live and breath Greek propaganda.

Grkomani are people who have become part of the Modern Greek cult. Many only have a slight idea they were 'not' originally 'Greek'. Recall, that 'memoricide' is official policy in Greece. The extermination of ethnic identity is job one in today's 'Hellenic paradise'.

Those who do have some memory that their grandparents didn't speak Greek, etc., are too ashamed or afraid to admit this in public. If they did, they would be rebuked and stigmatized. In Greece you must present only as Greek for if you don't -- as the Rainbow Party (The party of the Ethnic Macedonian Minority in Greece) found out -- the Greek state will go after you. Recall how disgracefully Arvanite like Pangalos behaved when they talked about their Albanian speaking families.

Self-loathing Macedonians, Vlach, Arvanite, Turks, etc, make up the bulk of the 'old-Greek' group. The ethnic heritage of the transplanted populations is so varied that these people don't have the slightest chance of ever knowing who they really are. 'Greek' is the only thing they have and they cling to it like a drowning man clinging to a piece of wood.

The vast majority of Greeks are (deliberately) misinformed about what their ethnic heritage was prior to the fabrication of their new Greek identity. Even those who still remember will never admit to it. They're getting into successive generations of state-sponsored lies and in many cases these lies are facilitated by family.

I personally know of Macedonians from Greece who have never spoken Macedonian in front of their children. They don't want their children to know they are Macedonian; they want them to be proud 'Hellenes'. This self-loathing mindset is part of the indoctrination process. I am not permitted to speak to these people in Macedonian in the presence of their children.

The truth will not bloom in Greece any time soon. The people there are too hypnotized by their fascistic culture that promotes a 'glorious' mythology. They are 'pure' Greeks who have given the world democracy and art and God only knows what else. This is what they are told every day in the media, by their government, by their church and via their education system. These folks are completely lost in their own delusions and the state fully intends to keep it that way.

The fact that Macedonians refuse to accept all this 'Hellenic' B.S. is a problem for Athens. It undermines the fabric of the fake Greek identity that today's Greeks idolize. Macedonian presence undermines the official mythology and Greeks have a strong negative reaction when exposed to the truth.

It's Macedonians, who have lived in the Macedonia region longer than today's newly assimilated and newly transplanted 'Greeks,' and that still recall who these people were before they became Greek. Macedonians remember when the new populations arrived in Macedonia to fill the void after successive ethnic cleansing campaigns. Macedonians remember what languages those people spoke and whose houses and fields that belonged to ethnic Macedonians they were given.

Macedonians lived in those villages and tilled those fields for many centuries before they arrived, but they have no sense at all who Macedonians are. To them Macedonians are just 'Bulgarians' or 'Slavs' because that's what the Hellenised Arvanite in Athens told them. Like all good fascists, they obey without question and continue to propagate the Hellenic dogma they were indoctrinated into.

When I use the term 'Hellenised zombies' I really do mean it. This is an accurate description of many people living in Northern Greece today and we should be aware of that. One should have some idea who they are, how they think and how they acquired their fake Greek identity.

This is why Macedonians continue to use the United Macedonia map. They strongly feel that they have been robbed of their homeland and identity.

[Edited 2008-02-24 13:00:05]

[Edited 2008-02-24 13:15:35]
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