MSYtristar
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Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:29 pm

I know this is old news....but, I've been reading more about this lately (ESPN.com currently has a good article on the NBA section about it) and the more I think about it, the more disgusted I am.

Here you have a major metro area...over five million last time I checked...home to numerous large corporations...and its NBA team is getting moved to Oklahoma City because a new stadium won't be built. I mean, is Key Arena really that bad? I read it was last updated in 1995, and that the new owner of the team is complaining about lack of restaurants and other amenities in the arena. Hey Clay, what about 40+ years of loyal fan support? Not good enough for ya?

Is this what pro sports has come to?

I will say this. I was surprised when the Hornets moved from Charlotte to New Orleans back in 2002 (although, obviously, pleasantly so), but that move wasn't as surprising as this move. And it seems like the commish is not getting in the way to prevent it. It sucks knowing that greedy owners are ruining the integrity of pro sports.

Sure, OKC showed great support for the Hornets over the past couple of years. I think they deserve a team...but an expansion team. Instead of opening new teams in Asia or Europe or wherever else, the NBA should hit up cities like OKC first. But, I guess that's a discussion for another day.

[Edited 2008-03-01 07:34:04]
 
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RJAF
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:53 pm

This is really sad. The Supersonics or the Sonics will always be associated with Seattle! I went to college in Oregon in the 80s and always supported the Sonics (and not the Blazers). Used to love Mcdaniel Payton and Kemp.
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Jetsgo
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:13 pm

The Maloof's have been threatening the same thing with our Sacramento Kings. They want to move them down to LAS because our tax payers do not want to fund a brand new arena in a terrible location. Arco Arena was only built in the early 1990's and has a good remote location. If they are so god damn concerned with getting a new area, why don't they pay up a large chunk of the tab at least?

One of the few reasons I've lost interest in the NBA and focus more on NCAA.
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sw733
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:17 pm



Quoting RJAF (Reply 1):
The Supersonics or the Sonics will always be associated with Seattle!

Until they move to OKC  duck 

I see this happening. They really enjoy their basketball in OKC...you have OU (as bad as they are) just down the road in Norman, and OKC television sets are quite often tuned to New Orleans Hornets games even though they have moved back to NO. There isn't a whole hell of a lot to do in Oklahoma City, and the arena was always packed for the NOK Hornets games...this is success waiting to happen.

Yeah, this pro sports...keep in mind also that Baltimore is looking at moving out to Los Angeles (we're talking MLB here) once the Dodgers move out...money is king.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:22 pm

The article I read also mentions that the new arena that the owner wants/wanted to build in SEA would cost $500 million, which was more than the new SEA baseball and football stadiums combined. How much sense does that make?
 
seb146
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:20 pm

Back when Safeco and Qwest fields were being funded, the city of Seattle rammed tax hikes down the throats of Seattle residents to pay for it. Big money backers, like Phil Knight and Microsoft, did not want to pay for their toys. From what I understand, the same thing is happening in this situation as well as with Huskies Stadium on the University of Washington campus. The people of King County do not want more taxes to pay for something the team and it's owners should pay for.

But not to worry. As with Charlotte, Seattle will get a franchise within five years. Either by the NBA awarding a new one or Phil Knight moving the Blazers there. Portlanders would just as soon tear down the Rose Garden and use the rubble to block the Interstate and Jackson Bridges than allow the Blazers to leave town!

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
...keep in mind also that Baltimore is looking at moving out to Los Angeles (we're talking MLB here) once the Dodgers move out

I have not heard the Dodgers are moving. Where are they going? When did this happen?
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Newark777
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:33 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
Is this what pro sports has come to?

Along with Wrigley Field being known as something like Viagra Field in a few years, sadly yes.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
I have not heard the Dodgers are moving. Where are they going? When did this happen?

News to me too, anyone want to elaborate?
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IADCA
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:11 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Yeah, this pro sports...keep in mind also that Baltimore is looking at moving out to Los Angeles (we're talking MLB here) once the Dodgers move out...money is king.

Uh, what?  redflag 

You do realize that it took so damn long for MLB to move the Expos because they couldn't find anywhere besides DC to move them and Selig really didn't want to upset his boy Angelos by putting the team here? So they tried, and guess what? There was NOWHERE else to move the team. And why would the Dodgers, who turned the second-largest profit in baseball in 2006 and have the fourth-highest franchise value, want to move to someplace that would kill both of those?

Also, Baltimore is definitely not thinking of moving. Despite the Nats moving to Washington, they're still sitting on a goldmine up there, and the reason is that in the deal to get Angelos to shut up for a change, MLB handed him a far larger stake in the regional sports network for Baltimore and Washington. That is, the Orioles get their own TV revenues, plus most of the Nationals' as well. Considering local TV revenue is a huge source of income and isn't subject to revenue sharing, that's a HUGE advantage. It basically makes the Baltimore franchise risk-free.

Finally, you do realize how difficult it is to move a franchise, right? Baseball's anti-trust and ownership structures make it impossible to move without the approval of the other teams, which has happened exactly once in the last 30 years.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
The Maloof's have been threatening the same thing with our Sacramento Kings. They want to move them down to LAS because our tax payers do not want to fund a brand new arena in a terrible location. Arco Arena was only built in the early 1990's and has a good remote location. If they are so god damn concerned with getting a new area, why don't they pay up a large chunk of the tab at least?

The key to this answer is that even more than other sports (except hockey), the cost of building a new basketball arena is so high relative to the value of the franchise that it often makes more sense to go where they offer a free arena than to pay for one yourself. Unfortunately, it also has a lot to do with where there are extremely rich people. While Sacramento has a great fan base, they don't have enough major corporations who pay for the high-margin luxury suites compared to a place like Las Vegas. Instead, they (like my hometown, Washington), have a lot of politicians who want free seats in great locations. That doesn't help either. And the problem with Arco, unfortunately, is that it was built ('88) just before the revolution in stadium and arena design and revenue management that happened in the mid-90s and caused the vast wave of arena replacements.

The analogy of airlines isn't entirely inapplicable here. What you're looking at, at least with Vegas, is a plane with full premium cabins, half-full Y, and your fuel already paid for. If they wanted to stay in Sacramento, it would be a jammed Y class, half-full premium, and paying for their fuel. Now which one would the money-grubbing owners choose?
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:23 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 7):

Completely understandable. However, I at one time, and to an extent today, am a big part of that fan base. I just hate to see these "new" owners come in and take away the only professional sport Sacramento has because of greed. I would think they could find another team that didn't sell every single seat in their arena for so many years, move them to LAS, and make better profits. Just my admittedly biased fan opinion.
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sw733
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:23 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):

I have not heard the Dodgers are moving. Where are they going? When did this happen?

I thought it was crazy too, I'm just repeating what I heard on ESPN on Wednesday.
 
IADCA
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 9):
I thought it was crazy too, I'm just repeating what I heard on ESPN on Wednesday.

As another poster kindly PMed and reminded me, what they're moving is their Spring Training facility, which has been at Dodgertown in Vero Beach, Florida; they're moving their ST out to Arizona next year. The main season isn't going anywhere. I think what you probably heard is that the Orioles will move their Spring Training into the old Dodgertown facility from Fort Lauderdale.
 
sw733
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 10):
As another poster kindly PMed and reminded me, what they're moving is their Spring Training facility, which has been at Dodgertown in Vero Beach, Florida

Ahhhh....sorry, I'm a football and basketball fan...this is what happens when I half-ass pay attention to baseball news. Sorry folks.
 
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:03 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
Either by the NBA awarding a new one or Phil Knight moving the Blazers there. Portlanders would just as soon tear down the Rose Garden and use the rubble to block the Interstate and Jackson Bridges than allow the Blazers to leave town!

Paul Allen owns the Blazers. I wish Phil Knight did, as I think it's more likely the Blazers would move to Eugene than Seattle if Knight was the owner. I hope Paul Allen isn't dumb enough to ruin the good thing he has going with the Blazers right now by trying to move them to Seattle.
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Chi-town
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:06 pm

The owner is from Oklahoma----he wants his team in OKC.
 
Chi-town
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:08 pm



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Yeah, this pro sports...keep in mind also that Baltimore is looking at moving out to Los Angeles (we're talking MLB here) once the Dodgers move out...money is king.

What is your source? That's absolute bullcrap, the Dodgers aren't going anywhere.
 
IADCA
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:12 pm



Quoting Chi-town (Reply 14):
What is your source? That's absolute bullcrap, the Dodgers aren't going anywhere.

Read the thread and you'll have your answer. He was just confused; they're moving the Spring Training facility, not the team itself.
 
Chi-town
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:15 pm

Haha, ok, didn't catch that. Bad statement by the original poster---very misleading.
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:35 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
I mean, is Key Arena really that bad? I read it was last updated in 1995, and that the new owner of the team is complaining about lack of restaurants and other amenities in the arena.

I actually like KeyArena as a basketball venue. Great sightlines - even for us ordinary fans, but I have heard that the luxury boxes are unpopular with the big spenders. KeyArena is also one of the smallest NBA arenas. 17,072 is the official capacity. It is also unsuitable for NHL hockey because the floor is too small for the rink without removing a good deal of the lower level seats behind one goal. Even worse, with the rink installed, a large chunk of the upper level can't see part of the ice. The then-owner of the Sonics did not want potential NHL "competition" playing in the same arena and did not support a larger floor. If the 1995 renovation made KeyArena a viable hockey facility, I don't think we'd have this problem because the arena would have more seating, and therefore more space for amenities. Major concerts/shows are also problematic because of inadequate loading dock space.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
Back when Safeco and Qwest fields were being funded, the city of Seattle rammed tax hikes down the throats of Seattle residents to pay for it. Big money backers, like Phil Knight and Microsoft, did not want to pay for their toys. From what I understand, the same thing is happening in this situation as well as with Huskies Stadium on the University of Washington campus. The people of King County do not want more taxes to pay for something the team and it's owners should pay for.

Not entirely true.

Safeco and Qwest Fields are funded by state-authorized taxes like the reastaurant food sales tax in King County and the rental car taxes, plus lottery proceeds. I don't think there are any City of Seattle taxes involved in the construction of either stadium.

Phil Knight has nothing to do with any Seattle sports teams.

Microsoft doesn't either. Paul Allen, in case you missed it, retired from MSFT years ago.

Husky Stadium's renovation plan would have used the same taxes as Safeco/Qwest.
 
seb146
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:11 am



Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 17):
If the 1995 renovation made KeyArena a viable hockey facility, I don't think we'd have this problem because the arena would have more seating, and therefore more space for amenities. Major concerts/shows are also problematic because of inadequate loading dock space.

I didn't think Seattle was ever interested in an NHL franchise. Portland built the Rose Garden for the possiblity of getting an NHL franchise to play along with the Blazers. I went to a few Thunderbird games at Key and was not impressed. It seemed crowded even for a WHL team. The actual site of the stadium relative to the population of Seattle is terrific. But, because of parking, transit, and moving cargo in and out of the arena, it is horrible.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 17):
Safeco and Qwest Fields are funded by state-authorized taxes like the reastaurant food sales tax in King County and the rental car taxes, plus lottery proceeds. I don't think there are any City of Seattle taxes involved in the construction of either stadium.

I lived in Seattle from 1999 to 2001 and one thing people were upset about was the funding of both Qwest Field and Safeco Field. Residents of King County, as I remember, were upset because there was NO money coming from either the Seahawks or the Mariners or their respective owners. The city and county were turning to the residents to pay for both stadiums. A similar situation is happening here in Oregon. The state legislature just authorized funds to build a new basketball stadium at University of Oregon. Why should I have to pay, however indirectly, for any kind of stadium I will never use in any way? I have no desire to watch Ducks basketball and I have no plans to ever attend UO. I never even stop in Eugene or Springfield for anything on my way along I-5! Thousands of residents all over Oregon are asking the same question.

As far as the names of people inolved: Between Phil Knight and Paul Allen, I can't keep them straight. Two ultra rich white guys. Paul Allen, I guess, talks about moving the Blazers to Seattle.
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ouboy79
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:45 am

Here is my take from someone who never went to a Hornets game, didn't really care about it, and got annoyed at the parking being taken up in Bricktown by fans. LOL

The Sonics and the Seattle Storm were purchased by PBC, LLC which is led by Clay Bennett and funded by several executives of OKC's larger companies (Chesapeake Energy, SandRidge Energy, MidFirst Bank, the Gaylord Family, etc). The sale in 2006 was because the previous owner, I believe CEO fo Starbucks, was fed up with the city not moving on replaceing Key Arena. PBC came in and said okay, we are going to work on it for a year and if we don't get a deal, then we'll file to move. A few plans came about but all fell through.

So after a year they filed for relocation. The vote is in April. The City of Seattle is suing PBC to force them to stay in Seattle until the lease is up in 2010. The city has rejected every offer for PBC to buyout the remaining years of the lease. During 2006/2007 pretty much most of Seattle really didn't care about the Sonics staying, probably figuring a deal would happen anyways, and then time ran out.

As far as what comes next. Next Tuesday, March 4th, OKC residents will vote on extending the 1% developmental sales tax that has been in place since the early 90's. This is the same tax that has been used to build the downtown canal, Bricktown Ballpark, Ford Center, new art museum, downtown library, renovate the Civic Center, renovate the Myriad Convention Center (now named after Cox), and more recently fund the replacement or renovation of every school in the OKC school district. If it passes on Monday it'll be in effect for 15 months to fund the expansion and upgrading of the Ford Center and also construct a new practice facility. Once that runs out the next vote in a year or two will be for MAPS 3 which is likely to target a new convention center, downtown park area, and a new mass transit/light rail system.

If that vote passes, then it'll be up to the NBA board to approve the move - something likely to happen since Stern is for the move. Then it is just getting the lawsuit settled with Seattle.

I think what OKC has going for it is the extremely favorable business climate, people in the community that are more forward thinking that cities elsewhere, and a tremendous sports following. Someone mentioned OU basketball, I believe itis actually the women that get more attention since Sherri Cole does an amazing job every year keeping them in the Top 10. However, people came out and supported the Hornets, which is an okay measure of success - but it was also something different for the city. They do though still support all the minor league teams in the city (AAA Baseball, CHL hockey, and AFL2) and the local universities (OU, OSU, UCO, etc). There is also a plan to acquire one of the new minor league soccer teams.

Personally I want to see an expansion rather than a city losing a team. However, what we have is a situation where the last two ownership groups have been unhappy with Seattle and have threatend to move. Say Clay sells the team back to owners in Seattle. What is to stop them in a year or two getting fed up as well and then all of a sudden Kansas City has their choice tennant for the Sprint Center. To NOLA fans, that is probably the next city to watch out for if Shinn keeps being stupid. KC wants an NBA team there badly...and if the Hornets look weak in NOLA, they'll do what they can to get 'em.
 
seb146
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:22 am



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 19):
all of a sudden Kansas City has their choice tennant for the Sprint Center.

That is something I never understood: Why does a city get a pro franchise and, when it moves, they get another one? If it is all about money but a team loses money, why do they get another team if they are just going to lose money? Houston Oilers moved to Nashville, and now Houston has the Texans. St Louis lost the Cardinals and now they have the Rams. Charlotte lost the Hornets and they now have the Bobcats. Even Kansas City had a team way back; The Kings. It does not happen that often, but when it does it always leads me to ask: Why?
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IADCA
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:00 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 20):
Why does a city get a pro franchise and, when it moves, they get another one? If it is all about money but a team loses money, why do they get another team if they are just going to lose money? Houston Oilers moved to Nashville, and now Houston has the Texans. St Louis lost the Cardinals and now they have the Rams. Charlotte lost the Hornets and they now have the Bobcats. Even Kansas City had a team way back; The Kings. It does not happen that often, but when it does it always leads me to ask: Why?

In most cases, it's because the league expands. Say a team in a 26-team league moves out of a city that it essentially considers to be the 28th best market and goes to one that it considers the 24th, which lacks a team. That's market economics, well and good. Then the league expands to 30 teams; suddenly that 28-best market is viable in comparison with other ones competing for new franchises. That was the case with both the Texans and Bobcats.

The Rams were a weird case, as they jumped just as LA went from 2 football teams to zero. They were seduced by the new-stadium dance and the lack of being able to make their stadium in LA more football-friendly and revenue-friendly.

Another factor that can change things is just pure time. Markets grow and shrink relative to each other over time, which makes places that failed before possible successes now. One example of this is Washington, DC and baseball. While bad ownership and on-field performance screwed baseball in DC decades ago, the enormous growth of the area since then gives the Nationals a much better shot at success.

Some other reasons are just the ridiculous, hypocritical, greedy nature of sports owners. See Bud Selig regarding the Seattle Pilots, then see his later attitudes towards moving teams. George Shinn and the Hornets is another example. These guys make airline CEOs look like gentlemen.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:05 am

Next piece of the puzzle has been laid, it is now up to the NBA Board...

http://www.news9.com/global/Category.asp?c=124638

At 903pm CST...The penny sales tax to fun upgrades to the Ford Center in OKC and also construction of the NBA practice facility...

61.6% Yes - 38,942 votes
38.4% No - 24,268 votes

Definitely pretty pathetic showing at the polls for something so big, but this was the only measure up for a vote today in OKC proper.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:52 pm



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 22):
Next piece of the puzzle has been laid, it is now up to the NBA Board...

I think it's all downhill from here since that resolution was passed.

BTW...the Hornets have sold out three of their last four home games since the All Star break, 16,259 for the whole month of February, and have now passed up PHL, MEM and IND in the attendance standings...with SEA in sight. If the fans in NOLA keep on supporting this team, which I think they will, SEA better look for an expansion club down the road and not a Hornets relocation.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:00 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
but an expansion team.

Like the NHL already has become, the NBA will become with further expansion, and that is.....watered down.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 23):
the Hornets have sold out three of their last four home games since the All Star break

.....and it's a good thing I've already purchased two seats to the March 14 home game against the Lakers  wink  , cause that game's pretty much sold out.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
ouboy79
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:25 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 23):
BTW...the Hornets have sold out three of their last four home games since the All Star break, 16,259 for the whole month of February, and have now passed up PHL, MEM and IND in the attendance standings...with SEA in sight.

Nice job! I think people weren't giving NOLA enough time to regroup once the team came back. You had the typical bitterness at Shinn and how the OKC relocation was handled...but hopefully that is fading. I know the Hornets have a ton of fans here right now, and the vast majority want them to make it work down there.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:33 pm

The whole issue of wealthy team owners playing stadium blackmail, demanding public funds to build stadiums so the owners can make even more money or they'll take the team elsewhere, has been a hot-button issue for many in Seattle.

The Mariners hated the Kingdome almost from inception, and had been trying for years to build a new ball park. When King County voters rejected an increase in the sales tax to build the new stadium in 1995, the State Legislature stepped in and put a funding package in place. Although it did not involve an increase in the sales tax per se, the move enraged many King County residents who saw the Legislature as doing an end round a fairly contested vote.

Now fast forward to 1997 and the NFL. Paul Allen steps in as a white knight who offers to buy the Seattle Seahawks from Ken Behring on the condition a new stadium be built to replace the Kingdome. Behring tried to move the team to Anaheim after being saddled with a lease of the Kingdome and annoyed that the Mariners had received public funding for their new stadium. The NFL intervened and forced Behring to move the team back to Seattle and put the team up for sale to a local buyer. The statewide initiative narrowly passed, with voters' memories of the whole Mariners thing fresh in their minds.

One of the criticisms of the Allen deal is that he could have paid for the stadium by writing a check out of petty cash. If Allen wants a new stadium, fine. Let him build and pay for it. If Maloof does move the Sonics, many in Seattle will simply say, "good riddence."

Charles, SJ
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MSYtristar
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:36 pm



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 25):
I think people weren't giving NOLA enough time to regroup once the team came back

I think so too, honestly. It's the first full year back, and there was a pretty big disconnection between the team and the fans in the beginning. New Orleans fans have historically supported sports teams well, and I knew that with time...once all the NO/OKC drama started to fade...the fans would return and support the team. I was just getting sick and tired of the damn media blasting N.O for poor attendance when you had historically strong teams (PHL, IND for example) who were posting numbers nearly as bad. The media loves to bash New Orleans, but maybe, they will be a little quieter now.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 24):
and it's a good thing I've already purchased two seats to the March 14 home game against the Lakers , cause that game's pretty much sold out.

On a Hornets board I was on, some folks were saying the team expects mostly all sell outs for the rest of the games.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:49 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 27):
the team expects mostly all sell outs for the rest of the games.

Hopefully so.....and they've got some more competition with the VooDoo's season having just begun. IIRC, the VooDoo had the highest home attendance in the AFL last season.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
N1120A
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:58 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
I mean, is Key Arena really that bad? I read it was last updated in 1995, and that the new owner of the team is complaining about lack of restaurants and other amenities in the arena.

The main issue is that it is small.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
The Maloof's have been threatening the same thing with our Sacramento Kings.

Yeah, they aren't going anywhere. They own their arena outright, which is not the trend anymore with public funding. They are the 12th most valuable franchise, despite not being in the 12th most valuable NBA city. The team is profitable. They are stupid if they move.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
keep in mind also that Baltimore is looking at moving out to Los Angeles (we're talking MLB here) once the Dodgers move out...



Quoting SW733 (Reply 9):

I thought it was crazy too, I'm just repeating what I heard on ESPN on Wednesday.



Quoting SW733 (Reply 11):

Ahhhh....sorry, I'm a football and basketball fan...this is what happens when I half-ass pay attention to baseball news. Sorry folks.

You should really read that stuff more carefully. Road blocks would go up in Elysian Park if The Parking Attendant tried something like that.

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 19):
To NOLA fans, that is probably the next city to watch out for if Shinn keeps being stupid. KC wants an NBA team there badly...and if the Hornets look weak in NOLA, they'll do what they can to get 'em.

The Hornets were pretty much under orders to move back and I also think they saw that OKC wasn't the utopian NBA market they thought it would be.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 21):
That was the case with both the Texans

That doesn't explain why L.A. has no team. Hell, given the TV deal the league has, a team could be placed in Redding, CA and still be successful.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 21):

The Rams were a weird case, as they jumped just as LA went from 2 football teams to zero

Well, they started the whole thing and they were really the bigger loss.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 21):
They were seduced by the new-stadium dance and the lack of being able to make their stadium in LA more football-friendly and revenue-friendly.

That wasn't the reason. They left because Georgia got a $20 million cash payout from the City of St. Louis, to go along with the stadium, revenue guarantees, etc. We just weren't going to bribe someone like that. The Rams could have gotten behind the Coliseum proposal and run with it.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 24):

Like the NHL already has become, the NBA will become with further expansion, and that is.....watered down.

Actually, I don't necessarily agree there. Because the NBA is, by the nature of the game, the league with the fewest players, the quality of those who don't make the league, and those that sit on the bench, is still very high. The NBA could probably expand to 36 teams and, from a quality standpoint, remain strong.

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 26):


The Mariners hated the Kingdome almost from inception, and had been trying for years to build a new ball park.

Well, you couldn't really blame them for that.

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 26):
The NFL intervened and forced Behring to move the team back to Seattle and put the team up for sale to a local buyer

Funny how they didn't do that with L.A.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 27):

On a Hornets board I was on, some folks were saying the team expects mostly all sell outs for the rest of the games.

With CP3 playing the way he has been, plus the return of the Birdman, I can understand why.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
UAL747
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:17 pm

The owner, Clay Bennett of Oklahoma City, wants the team in OKC, and as part of the Gaylord family, the Bennetts, following Gaylord's lead, have been very generous when it comes to projects funding education, higher education, and sports and entertainment. The Gaylord company after all, is an Entertainment company, owning Opry Land, and other amusement parks, entertainment ventures, hotels and resorts, and of course, the News Channel 9 and the Daily Oklahoman, which was the precursor to their immense wealth.

A lot of people hate the Gaylord family as they think they control most of the Oklahoma media and politics, and to some degree I do see where they get that idea. But being one of the wealthiest family's in the United States, it's hard for them to not be involved so heavily in Oklahoma business.

Having said that, I went to school with the Bennetts and they are extremely down to earth people, and very nice in my opinion and they, like the rest of the family, have always used a portion of their money to support Oklahoma City in many, many ways. It's hard to find an educational institution in the Oklahoma City area that doesn't have the name, "Gaylord" "Everest" or "Bennett" on some building somewhere. These three families donated massive amounts of money to Casady Episcopal Preparatory School, where I went to school and their generous donations transformed our school into a beautiful place to spend 12 years of education.

However, my question is, why would Bennett need/want the Ford Center to be renovated? It's brand spankin' new? That's the one thing that I don't understand. It was good for the Hornets, but what exactly needs to be done with it to support the Sonics?

On a side note, my mom did some PR and Event promotions for the Hornets in Oklahoma City and got to hear a lot of the gossip with the team and its higher-ups. The talk was they wanted to stay in OKC, as the turnout for the games was better than it was in New Orleans, and many of the players and team staff, including company staff, enjoyed settling in the Oklahoma City area, some of them not living too far from my parents. And there was a big push for them to stay here by the city of Oklahoma City, offering many benefits to the team. Most of the management my mom worked with stated that they wish they could stay in OKC, but alas, they went back south.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
MSYtristar
Topic Author
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:30 pm



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 30):
The talk was they wanted to stay in OKC, as the turnout for the games was better than it was in New Orleans, and many of the players and team staff, including company staff, enjoyed settling in the Oklahoma City area, some of them not living too far from my parents. And there was a big push for them to stay here by the city of Oklahoma City, offering many benefits to the team. Most of the management my mom worked with stated that they wish they could stay in OKC, but alas, they went back south.

I don't think it's any secret that Shinn would have stayed in OKC given the chance. Thankfully, that wasn't allowed to happen. The right thing to do was to go back to New Orleans and see if they could make it work. Just giving up and staying in OKC would have been the easy way out. I will say this...New Orleans fans were pretty pissed when the team was co-marketed "NO/OKC" as much as it was...with the "OKC" patches on the jersey and stuff...it really did seem that the team would stay up there, and it led to a lot of the disenchantment between Shinn and the New Orleans fans. But like I said, the powers that be made the right decision. SEA, indirectly, looks like the big loser in this whole fiasco....but I think even if/when the Sonics go to OKC, SEA will probably get a new team in a few years' time.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:52 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
But not to worry. As with Charlotte, Seattle will get a franchise within five years.

I don't think so. Stern is known to hold a grudge and Seattle will not get a team unless they build a stadium which they aren't willing to do.

Not to mention that the NBA is looking to expand to Europe in the next 10 years. We are already starting to see plans for stadiums big enough in Europe.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
sw733
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:00 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):

You should really read that stuff more carefully. Road blocks would go up in Elysian Park if The Parking Attendant tried something like that.

Ok, I get it, I screwed up. People need the lay off me, I admitted my mistake. God forbid someone make ONE mistake on this website. Besides, how could I READ it better if I heard it on ESPN, as I mentioned...
 
N1120A
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 32):
I don't think so. Stern is known to hold a grudge and Seattle will not get a team unless they build a stadium which they aren't willing to do.

I don't really Stearn has a dog in this fight.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 32):

Not to mention that the NBA is looking to expand to Europe in the next 10 years. We are already starting to see plans for stadiums big enough in Europe.

Remember, NBA teams use arenas, not stadiums. I am sure there are plenty of facilities large enough in Europe to handle an NBA team.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 33):

Ok, I get it, I screwed up. People need the lay off me, I admitted my mistake. God forbid someone make ONE mistake on this website. Besides, how could I READ it better if I heard it on ESPN, as I mentioned...

I think the main issue is that you made that statement a bit half-cocked and it related to a team with serious history.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:27 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
I don't really Stearn has a dog in this fight.

Stern is the general and he has alot of influence in the manner.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/336871_arena26.html

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
I am sure there are plenty of facilities large enough in Europe to handle an NBA team.

And do you think that FIBA will let the NBA use them? They will fight the NBA till their last breath.

Here's some comments on Europe.

“We really are thinking more about expansion teams in Europe in the decade,” Stern said. “And we think the Players Association would think the extra 60 jobs would be a really neat thing. So, we’re not focusing as much on the existing franchises themselves as we are upon new franchises.”

.......

Stern pointed to the NBA’s preseason foray into London as a shining example.

He cited London’s O2 Arena as a blueprint of what should be followed in other cities if Europe is to be considered for multiple NBA teams.

“The O2 Arena we played in in London, it is an NBA-ready arena,” Stern said. “We know there is an O2 World that’s likely to open - or scheduled to open - in October in Berlin.

“It is also going to be ready, and it’s being built by the same company - AEG - that built Staples Center (in Los Angeles), manages many arenas and, in fact, is going to manage the Beijing Olympic arena, which the NBA has an interest in economically and represents and assisted in designating them.”

Stern, for his part, was not looking down upon European facilities but noted that Americans are “spoiled” with “retrofitted” homes for their basketball teams.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=txnbaeurope&prov=st&type=lgns

Between the lines, he doesn't want to use European facilities for more than just the "retrofit".
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
UAL747
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:33 pm

It's funny though,

Mayor Mick Cornett of Oklahoma City has been campaigning this tax increase for the Ford Center for the past month it seems like on local TV, however, the night before the vote, there were several news polls that were conducted and they indicated by a large percent something like 55% against the tax increase, yet it passed yesterday. With the low voter turnout, probably less than 10% of the community, I wonder if the Yeas outdid the neighs based on apathy.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
rfields5421
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:38 pm



Quoting RJAF (Reply 1):
This is really sad. The Supersonics or the Sonics will always be associated with Seattle!

Just as the Jazz are always associated with New Orleans.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:39 pm

Just found another good article from a couple of years back which shows Stern will not use most current European arenas.

"It is a dream of mine, but we did our research and the research said there were no buildings, no public support for such buildings and no ownership groups at the present time.

"But at some time, the research said that new buildings would be in place for family and business entertainment, which is not done now in Europe. Football [soccer] is not used for family and business entertainment. The family and business entertainment can go to the opera or theater or other such places, but not sporting events.

......

The lack of suitable venues -- not travel or scheduling problems -- remains the biggest single obstacle to possible European development.

The 19,000-capacity KolnArena in Cologne, Germany, where the Sixers, Phoenix Suns, Maccabi Tel Aviv and CSKA Moscow play over two nights next Tuesday and Wednesday, is the only venue currently considered "NBA ready." Smaller venues, lagging behind their American equivalents in features such as suites, concessions and parking, would not generate the necessary income over a 41-game NBA home season.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2614550

Stern has long said that the absence of NBA-sized buildings had been the biggest obstacle to putting franchises in Europe. Now that a marketplace is developing for large arenas capable of providing revenue streams to support NBA franchises, the league can seriously begin to consider expansion overseas.

With the very likely expansion to Europe and the already announce China expansion, I don't know if Seattle will see a team for awhile. They may end up being like LA and the NFL.

Stern's preference has been to develop international partnerships with local federations and business interests, as in the formal announcement last month of NBA China. ESPN and four Chinese investors have already pledged $253 million to the nascent project.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...international.expansion/index.html
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
N1120A
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:06 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):

Stern is the general and he has alot of influence in the manner.

I realize that. I just don't think he will actively push the move. I am sure he wont stand in the way either.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):

And do you think that FIBA will let the NBA use them? They will fight the NBA till their last breath.

FIBA really wouldn't be in control there.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):


Between the lines, he doesn't want to use European facilities for more than just the "retrofit".

I would say that there are quite a few that will work turn key right now.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 37):

Just as the Jazz are always associated with New Orleans.

Well, not at this point.
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slider
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:17 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
Here you have a major metro area...over five million last time I checked...

Not even close...3.2MM total metro.

Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
Is this what pro sports has come to?

What do you mean COME TO? It's been like this for years.

I think paraphrasing Karl Marx is appropriate here--it is not religion, but SPORTS that is the opiate of the people. Until people stop going, stop forking over the dough and stop acting like dumbasses, the very few who have a financial stake in the game will continue to call the shots. At your expense.
 
MSYtristar
Topic Author
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
Not even close...3.2MM total metro.

My bad. Still, 3.2 is nothing to sneeze at.

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
What do you mean COME TO? It's been like this for years.

Yea, it just seems to have become increasingly worse as the years pass.
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:10 pm

BTWm, Per Oklahoma City Radio Stations:

The Sonics deal is not as of yet sealed. Assuming that the Sonics DO decide to come to Oklahoma City, the tax raise will seek $120,000,000. 100 mill to renevate the Ford Center and 20 million to build an NBA practice arena. SHOULD the Sonics decide not to come, then only 100 million will be raised for the renevation of the Ford Center.

While I think the deal is probably in the bag, there still is a possibility that we might not get them, though I think it would do well for the Oklahoma City Community's economy. Though, I still fail to see why a nearly brand new facility needs renovations....

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:46 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):


Between the lines, he doesn't want to use European facilities for more than just the "retrofit".

I would say that there are quite a few that will work turn key right now.

You obviously haven't read my sources that state there is only one right now and plans for three or four.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 38):

The lack of suitable venues -- not travel or scheduling problems -- remains the biggest single obstacle to possible European development.

The 19,000-capacity KolnArena in Cologne, Germany, where the Sixers, Phoenix Suns, Maccabi Tel Aviv and CSKA Moscow play over two nights next Tuesday and Wednesday, is the only venue currently considered "NBA ready." Smaller venues, lagging behind their American equivalents in features such as suites, concessions and parking, would not generate the necessary income over a 41-game NBA home season.

In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
N1120A
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:51 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 43):

You obviously haven't read my sources that state there is only one right now and plans for three or four.

Your sources also very obviously leave out some important factors. How much parking do you really need in Europe? A place like Festhalle Frankfurt is so well connected to public transport that you aren't going to need parking in the same way you need it in the US. The one issue I can see being a stumbling block is the suite thing.
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fumanchewd
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:09 am

David Stern says that the current stadiums won't work. I wouldn't doubt if he is using false premises but the key is that he won't use the current ones (with the exception of London and perhaps Real Madrid's).

I think its interesting, but some are speculating that they would need a five team conference in Europe and visiting teams would need to stay for over two weeks. Some believe that the number of games played in a season would need to be shortened as well.

It appears that the NBA is trying to make basketball as globally popular as football (soccer). I think that it will work great in Asia, but I am not so sure about Europe.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
N1120A
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:16 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 45):
Some believe that the number of games played in a season would need to be shortened as well.

That would be a terrible idea. As it is, it takes a whole season, if not also some playoff games, for many teams to be profitable for the year.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 45):

It appears that the NBA is trying to make basketball as globally popular as football (soccer). I think that it will work great in Asia, but I am not so sure about Europe.

Well, I don't know if basketball will ever match football, simply because of the accessibility of football for the poor. Further, I do think that basketball has been the one specifically American sport that actually has done well on a purely global stage, unlike American Football which hasn't done well outside of Germany and Baseball which has done well in northern Latin America and east Asia. The fact that Europe has very successful and very lucrative pro basketball leagues has to say something to the popularity of the sport and its potential.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:06 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
Well, I don't know if basketball will ever match football, simply because of the accessibility of football for the poor. Further, I do think that basketball has been the one specifically American sport that actually has done well on a purely global stage, unlike American Football which hasn't done well outside of Germany and Baseball which has done well in northern Latin America and east Asia. The fact that Europe has very successful and very lucrative pro basketball leagues has to say something to the popularity of the sport and its potential.

I agree. However, I think that one of the most challenging aspects is the available talent. If teams start to become diluted in talent it will collapse. Some may say that there are currently too many franchise players on the same teams now, however. i.e. cleveland, dallas, etc.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
ouboy79
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:17 am



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 30):
The Gaylord company after all, is an Entertainment company, owning Opry Land, and other amusement parks, entertainment ventures, hotels and resorts, and of course, the News Channel 9 and the Daily Oklahoman, which was the precursor to their immense wealth.

Umm...Griffin Family owns KWTV Channel 9, and KOTV in Tulsa...not the Gaylords.  Smile In fact, the two hate each other after the split up on the joint NewsOK.com project.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 36):
the night before the vote, there were several news polls that were conducted and they indicated by a large percent something like 55% against the tax increase, yet it passed yesterday.

Which stations? I never saw one poll that saw this measure failing at all.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
I realize that. I just don't think he will actively push the move. I am sure he wont stand in the way either.

Stern called the mayor of OKC today congradulating him on the victory and for showing their ambitions in wanting to support the NBA, should they move.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 42):
While I think the deal is probably in the bag, there still is a possibility that we might not get them, though I think it would do well for the Oklahoma City Community's economy. Though, I still fail to see why a nearly brand new facility needs renovations....

It lacks the room for suites, restaurants, and space for conventions within the facility. The Big 12 also expressed a desire for additional features in order for OKC to secure a spot in the rotation of the Big 12 basketball championship games.
 
N1120A
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RE: Seattle Sonics To OKC? WTF?

Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:46 am

BTW, one of the big things brewing is that the Sonics still owe the City of Seattle 2 years on a pretty iron clad lease. I am wondering what is going to happen there.
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