BR715-A1-30
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Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:21 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23480167/

VIENNA - OPEC on Wednesday accused the U.S. of economic “mismanagement” that it said is pushing oil prices to new record highs and rebuffed calls to boost output, laying the blame on the Bush administration.

Somehow, I want to believe OPEC on this one.. Considering how Bush ran every business he ever ran into the ground, it looks to be that way for his running the country. >.<
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AirCop
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:30 am

Let see the price of a barrel of oil was $36 at the start of the Iraqi war, and now at $104, not that one this one factor is responsible for the price increase. Just pointing out the price change.
 
seb146
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:32 am

In that the Bush Administration did not put checks on American oil companies setting record profits quarter after quarter (as much as the Administration could) and not sounding as gung-ho about finding alternatives to oil. As you know, I am not a fan of the Bush Administration, but I would not lay the blame for high gas prices entirely at the feet of the Bush Administration. They do have their hand in it, but there are others to blame.
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RJdxer
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:46 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Somehow, I want to believe OPEC on this one..

And to a degree they are right. There is a surplus of oil above ground right now. Stocks in the U.S. alone are well above average.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 1):
Just pointing out the price change.

Due to three major factors, increase in demand from emerging countries, speculative price wars, and the fall of the U.S. dollar. I agree that this President has done a horrible job of reigning in government spending as did the last Republican controlled Congress. Unfortunately the latest Democratic led Congress is not any better. Until we get the cost and size of government under control, the dollar will have a hard time recovering and the price of everything will get more expensive.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 2):
They do have their hand in it, but there are others to blame.

Somebody needs to sit the commodities traders down and have a talk with them. They are one of the prime movers in the price change and expert after expert has been mystified at their actions. There is plenty of oil above the ground. Blaming the oil companies makes no sense. They have consistently made around 10% in profits and that's nothing to get all worked up about.
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Falcon84
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:02 am

No, it is not his fault. I think the war in Iraq has been a factor in the rise in prices, as well as the tension with Iran, which is Iran's fault more than the U.S., imho.

But simply, it is not George Bush's fault, period.
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seb146
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:06 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Blaming the oil companies makes no sense. They have consistently made around 10% in profits and that's nothing to get all worked up about.

How often have we heard "XYZ Oil Company has made record profits last quarter?" I think it is something to get worked up over. I agree that the oil companies are only part of the equasion. OPEC is another part.

One thing I don't get is Venezuela said it will not sell oil to Exxon. Fine. Open market, free trade and all that. We in the Pacific Northwest are told we have nothing to worry about with prices because we get our oil from Alaska. All of a sudden, we are paying 50 cents more a gallon because supposedly the refinery in Anacortes is undergoing scheduled maintenance. So, can we expect prices to drop 50 cents a gallon when the Anacortes facility is back? No. Prices *may* drop 10 or 15 cents a gallon. And I predict more record profits for the oil companies. Some group somewhere should be able to keep all that in check, right?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:09 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):

I'd agree, it's partially the fault of the Bush administration.

Mostly, however - the fault lies with

a) The insufferable amount of time and cost involved in building new refineries where we can refine the surplus of crude we already have. IF we could cut out the red tape, reduce the burdensome Environmental  redflag  required to even dig a hole in ground, and reduce the cost of procurring the land, eliminate the NIMBYs that don't want a refinery anywhere in a hundred miles radius of themselves, we could refine more fuel.

b) Big Oil. They are making record profits and laughing all the way to the bank. They don't want lower prices and they don't want more refining capability, they like the $$$$.

c) OPEC. They are just like Big Oil. Everything said above regarding big oil applies to OPEC.

d) Commodities Brokers are also making a killing. Again, it's all about the $$$$.

There's more . . . but most folks have already covered it.

It's NOT solely the fault of the PotUS no matter how badly BR715-A1-30 wants it to be.
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Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:14 am

It's like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon these days, everyone is trying to trace everything back to Bush.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 2):
In that the Bush Administration did not put checks on American oil companies setting record profits quarter after quarter (as much as the Administration could)

This is the most ridiculous argument I always hear. You think prices will go down if the government restricts corporate profits? That makes sense.  Yeah sure

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
How often have we heard "XYZ Oil Company has made record profits last quarter?" I think it is something to get worked up over. I agree that the oil companies are only part of the equasion. OPEC is another part.

You can't equate the size of the profit with the profit margin. They have nothing to do with each other (i.e. higher profit don't necessarily mean higher profit margins).
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Arrow
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:17 am

High oil prices are good for you. They are not nearly high enough. When they are so high that conservation becomes a necessity rather than dalliance, then they'll be high enough.

It isn't Bush's fault, although he more than anyone is responsible for the rather dramatic decline in the value of the US dollar (which is a piece of the oil price rise). We're all at fault. Look in the mirror for the culprit.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:19 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
How often have we heard "XYZ Oil Company has made record profits last quarter?"

Sure, but look at the volume of business they are doing. That is where the record profits come from. When you factor out the cost of doing business, what is left is profit and that has consistently been in the 10% range which is not unacceptable, even for the church. Record profits does not mean they are spiking the price and raking in the excess.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
Some group somewhere should be able to keep all that in check, right?

Yes, it was called the Soviet Union, and in todays world it's called the Peoples Republic of China. You want to live as a communist?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
b) Big Oil. They are making record profits and laughing all the way to the bank. They don't want lower prices and they don't want more refining capability, they like the $$$$.

See above, as to refining capacity they might like to add more but as you correctly pointed out, the cost of building won't justify the return. It's still cheaper to refine it overseas and ship it in.
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Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting Arrow (Reply 8):
High oil prices are good for you. They are not nearly high enough. When they are so high that conservation becomes a necessity rather than dalliance, then they'll be high enough.

It may help conserve a bit, but not as much as some people think. People are still going to have to drive places, and for the most part they are stuck with whatever gas prices they are given. People have to drive to work, bring kids to school, shop for groceries, etc. Add onto that the cost to the economy, as higher gas prices lead to higher prices for everything else, due to higher transportation and other costs, and it is certainly not a good thing.
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Pope
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:27 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 1):
Let see the price of a barrel of oil was $36 at the start of the Iraqi war, and now at $104, not that one this one factor is responsible for the price increase. Just pointing out the price change.

Using that logical, what was the price of oil before Nancy Pelosi took office? What is it now? Just pointing out the price change.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
OPEC on Wednesday accused the U.S. of economic “mismanagement”

Kinda like Hitler calling out Churchill on human rights abuses...

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Somehow, I want to believe OPEC on this one..

You would.

Look. Simple maths.

In 2000, world oil consumption was about 70 million bpd (of which the US was about 20 mbpd). Production capacity was about 75 million bpd. A surplus, ergo, low prices.

Today, world consumption is about 81 million bpd (of which the US was about 20 mbpd, just a fraction more than before). Production capacity is only 79 mbpd.

See the problem? The rest of the world grew demand faster than the US, and we passed the threshold where capacity has been overtaken. Anybody with a 3rd grade knowledge of supply and demand and elasticity will recognize that $100 per barrel oil was bound to happen around the time it did - Nothing Bush or even Clinton could have done to prevent it - apart from allowing us to drill where we need to drill and build new refineries.

You want someone to blame for high gas prices? Blame the environmentalists. They may not be completely responsible, but they are far more responsible than any president.
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seb146
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:59 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 9):
Sure, but look at the volume of business they are doing. That is where the record profits come from. When you factor out the cost of doing business, what is left is profit and that has consistently been in the 10% range which is not unacceptable, even for the church. Record profits does not mean they are spiking the price and raking in the excess.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
In 2000, world oil consumption was about 70 million bpd (of which the US was about 20 mbpd). Production capacity was about 75 million bpd. A surplus, ergo, low prices.

Today, world consumption is about 81 million bpd (of which the US was about 20 mbpd, just a fraction more than before). Production capacity is only 79 mbpd.

Over the past 8 years, oil companies have recorded record profits, even with capacity going up only 4 MBPD over 8 years and consumption going up 11 MBPD. What does the Church have to do with it? Tithing 10%? I don't get that part. But, I still think something less extreme than a Communest regeme should be able to get gas prices down.
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blrsea
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:00 am

If the Iraq war had not been started, the prices would have been more reasonable around $60-70 per barrel. When the Iraq war started, there were too many speculators driving up the prices in the market, and the sabre-rattling with Iran didn't help either.
 
Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:04 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 13):
But, I still think something less extreme than a Communest regeme should be able to get gas prices down.

But what do you suggest then? Regulating profits certainly isn't the answer.
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RJdxer
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:12 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 13):
Over the past 8 years, oil companies have recorded record profits, even with capacity going up only 4 MBPD over 8 years and consumption going up 11 MBPD.

Again, look at what it costs them to do business. Subtract that from the overall income, and you are left with the profit. The profit for these companies has not exceeded 10% (actually a little less) which is normal for any business. The oil comanies do not set the price of oil, the cartels and commoditties brokers do.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 13):
What does the Church have to do with it? Tithing 10%?

Yes, even Jesus doesn't demand more than 10%

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 14):
If the Iraq war had not been started, the prices would have been more reasonable around $60-70 per barrel. When the Iraq war started, there were too many speculators driving up the prices in the market, and the sabre-rattling with Iran didn't help either.

That in itself is speculation. But you are correct that speculators are driving the price, not supply since there is plenty of oil in stocks already pumped.
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VonRichtofen
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:23 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
which is Iran's fault more than the U.S., imho.

Oil shot up today because the US dollar tanked again against the Euro forcing traders to dump their US dollars and buy into commodity's like oil, pushing the price up. This spike, has nothing to do with Iran.

Whether it has anything to do with Bush? I'm not sure, can the tanking of the USD be put on him?
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:24 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
I think the war in Iraq has been a factor in the rise in prices



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
But simply, it is not George Bush's fault, period.

You kind of contradict yourself there...

The War in Iraq WAS George Bush's fault. He lied about the reason we went in there, and for some reason he is not yet impeached. Perhaps the next time a president goes to war with another country, he/she should state the reason under oath. Originally, we went into Iraq because of WMDs... We didn't find them, so now Bush says it was to "secure a democracy in Iraq" which frankly was none of his damn business. I can understand the WMDs, I mean, hell, if they were there, I'd have said "More power to ya." But he knew they weren't there, he lied, and went anyway. Daddy's Vendetta.
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Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:31 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 18):
He lied about the reason we went in there, and for some reason he is not yet impeached.

Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:59 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 2):
did not put checks on American oil companies setting record profits quarter after quarter

What manner of ridiculous BS statement/justification is that?!
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flanker
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:05 am

ahhh simple ignorant

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
What manner of ridiculous BS statement/justification is that?!

Lets redistribute wealth and go after those big evil oil companies for making too much money!! Thats liberalism for you.  mad 
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ltbewr
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:21 am

The war in Iraq, along with other instability in the region does help to bump up the price of oil. Iraq is pumping out less than in Saddam's day by at least 1 million bbls./day. The oil-for-food program discouraged production under Saddam, production facilities and investment declined and were not maintained to keep up production. Traders add a 'war premium' to oil as who knows when a major attack will affect supplies. To some extent, Pres. Bush's decision to go into Iraq just made a declining situation much worse. In total the war/war premium probably adds $20/bbl to today's price.
Perhaps more critical is rising demand by India and China, that have limited oil from within their own borders along with insatable demand in the USA.
 
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N776AU
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:22 am



Quote:
It's Bush's Fault?

Isn't everything though?
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Lufthansa411
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:43 am

Although I strongly believe that Bush has mismanaged the economy to the point of near collapse, he is not the only culprit.

Here are what I see as the 3 biggest contributors to the increase in the price of oil:

1. Instability in Nigeria
2. The value of the dollar
3. The Iraq War


China buys a large share of it's oil from Nigeria. During the elections last year and the resulting instability including riots etc. oil refineries were destroyed causing China to find other more stable sources to purchase oil from. That made oil prices shoot up.

Since oil is traded in $, and the value of the $ has declined so much, the price of oil elsewhere (not in the US) has remained relatively constant while in the US it has skyrocketed because it costs "more" per barrel to purchase to for a US consumer. My brother who lives in Prague has not really been effected, as the rate that oil has gone up has been relatively close to the Kc/$ exchange rate fluctuation.

The Iraq war has give a justification ethical or not for prices to increase. Just because demand increases doesn't mean supply has to. Its not like we have anyone else but ourselves to blame either. We made ourselves dependent on oil. OPEC may control the resource, but we control our demand.

I think OPEC is correct. George Bush has directly and indirectly caused oil to increase. The NY Times quoted Goldman Sachs as saying that businesses had about a month worth of reserves, by far enough to not be worried. The concern is more that Bush with screw things up more than he has and destroy the last hope we have of restoring relations with other countries-and finding solutions to oil dependence.


Lufthansa411
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Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:50 am



Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 24):
Although I strongly believe that Bush has mismanaged the economy to the point of near collapse, he is not the only culprit.

The President really gets too much credit when the economy is good, and too much blame when it is poor. What, in your opinion, has he specifically done to mismanage the economy?
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Arrow
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:58 am



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 25):
What, in your opinion, has he specifically done to mismanage the economy?

1. Spent billions on a pointless and totally unjustified war.
2. Borrowed those billions (through the friendly finance folks in China, India, etc.) through continual deficit financing,
3. Implemented tax cuts while he was running up the deficits.

Those chickens are coming home to roost in the form of a seriously devalued US dollar. Be grateful it is not in China's interest to hasten that slide by calling in all its notes. But watch out if there's a formal OPEC switch to the euro as a petrodollar, that would spell trouble.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:25 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 5):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Blaming the oil companies makes no sense. They have consistently made around 10% in profits and that's nothing to get all worked up about.

How often have we heard "XYZ Oil Company has made record profits last quarter?" I think it is something to get worked up over.

I believe MSFT made something like a 23% profit margin last year. Why aren't you screaming about being "gouged" by them, then? I've read reports showing Apple has a better than 50% profit margin on the iPhone. I bet you either have one, want one or know someone who does though.

As others have said, if you look at the raw dollar amount it looks like a lot - but it only LOOKS that way. As a percentage of return on investment, it's not spectacular compared to other industries. Oil is a very capital-intensive business, so you spend tens of billions of dollars for the infrastructure, raw materials, etc.

It costs a lot of money to make those "record profits" of which you speak. And again, a 10% profit margin is decent, but nothing to scream over.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
It's NOT solely the fault of the PotUS no matter how badly BR715-A1-30 wants it to be.

 checkmark 
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L-188
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:18 am



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 7):
It's like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon these days, everyone is trying to trace everything back to Bush.

Got to agree with you on there, it is just the lefties trying to blame everything on Bush,

Quoting Arrow (Reply 8):
High oil prices are good for you. They are not nearly high enough. When they are so high that conservation becomes a necessity rather than dalliance, then they'll be high enough.

Truely spoken like somebody who never has had to actually pay a heating bill in winter.
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Leskova
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:44 am

Bush's fault? I wouldn't say he's blameless in this, but he's certainly not the only one.

The fact that several nations, not only the US, seem to think that oil is an endless ressource, that it's just that black stuff that comes, in endless amounts, out of holes that we drill into the ground certainly isn't helping.

The US has, from the numbers above, at least managed to stay somewhat stable in its (far too high) oil consumption, but the real problem lies with the huge increases that some countries have "managed".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
You want someone to blame for high gas prices? Blame the environmentalists. They may not be completely responsible, but they are far more responsible than any president.

Ah, yes, the usual mantra. Anything goes wrong? It's the environmentalists fault. That logic is just as inane as blaming everything on Bush.

Yes, environmentalists frequently do get on people's nerves - but it's not like all of their ideas are absurd.

We are using too much oil these days, we should be much more focussed on finding alternatives.

Simply skipping environmental concerns and turning Alaska into a piece of Swiss cheese might alleviate the situation for a while, but in some years, we'll be right back where we are now. The difference will only be that Alaska will have turned into a complete wasteland.

My father was in the oil industry up until his retirement around 10 years ago... within the company that he worked for (at that time the company was 50% owned by Exxon) they were always looking at finding ways to get oil out of the ground with even less of an impact on the environment.

The company, at that time (haven't followed their fortunes since my father retired), was extremely profitable.

Environmentalism and profitability aren't exclusive - they, in fact, go hand-in-hand. At least if you're thinking of longterm profitability, and not just a shortterm boost to your bottom line.

Quoting Flanker (Reply 21):
Thats liberalism for you.

Might be time for you to review what the word liberal actually means - because you're about as far from the truth as possible...

Let me help you with that:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal

In there, you'll find definitions such as...

- marked by generosity
- given or provided in a generous and openhanded way
- not literal or strict

And just to remind you of that often-missed fact: liberal stems from the latin word "liber": free.


And then there's this page that you might want to look at:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberalism

... which lists these two interesting definitions:

- a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard
- a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties


I'd be very interested in hearing why you're so opposed to a concept that is based on protecting/furthering the "autonomy of the individual", and that's got "the protection of political and civil liberties" at it's core?

I know that the word "liberal" has been perverted quite severly by a lot of people - but next time you use it in an arguement, try to use it in the correct way...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 26):

1. Spent billions on a pointless and totally unjustified war.
2. Borrowed those billions (through the friendly finance folks in China, India, etc.) through continual deficit financing,
3. Implemented tax cuts while he was running up the deficits.

Those chickens are coming home to roost in the form of a seriously devalued US dollar. Be grateful it is not in China's interest to hasten that slide by calling in all its notes. But watch out if there's a formal OPEC switch to the euro as a petrodollar, that would spell trouble.

The executive branch's fiscal policy doesn't have as big an effect on the economy compared to the monetary policy enacted by the Federal Reserve. The current devaluation of the dollar has a direct correlation with the recent policies of the Federal Reserve over the past year, as opposed to the connections with the fiscal policy, which are tenuous at best.
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Arrow
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:23 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 28):
Truely spoken like somebody who never has had to actually pay a heating bill in winter.

You're joking, right? I've paid heating bills in places where winter temperatures would hit -40 and stay there for a while. Note the flag on my posts: it's not Jamaica.

Conservation will never take hold while energy is cheap.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 31):
Conservation will never take hold while energy is cheap.

But again, do you expect people to stop heating their homes? Stop going to work? Most people need to carry out these activities on their lives, and there is not a whole lot to cut out when it comes to oil usage. All it is going to do is put more burden on the average citizen.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:31 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Of course. Everything is Bush's fault and/or global warming, which is also Bush's fault.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:46 pm



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 10):
People are still going to have to drive places, and for the most part they are stuck with whatever gas prices they are given. People have to drive to work, bring kids to school, shop for groceries, etc

Well, that's perfectly OK, all they need to change is what to drive places. Whatever that has less than 6 cylinders and 3 liters of displacement is not even considered an engine. I like big engines too, but I was able to survive with my 1.3 litre Baleno quite well. With average fuel consumption around 6.2l/100 km (5.5 long highway routes)

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 32):
Stop going to work?

See above.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 32):
But again, do you expect people to stop heating their homes?

No, definitely not. But there is alot what can be done to improve this process - insulate the houses, replace the windows, replace the furnaces with more efficient models, etc... Without real pressure people won't do that.
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Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:06 pm



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 34):

Well, that's perfectly OK, all they need to change is what to drive places. Whatever that has less than 6 cylinders and 3 liters of displacement is not even considered an engine. I like big engines too, but I was able to survive with my 1.3 litre Baleno quite well. With average fuel consumption around 6.2l/100 km (5.5 long highway routes)

Cars coming out now already incorporate a good deal of energy efficiency, compared with a few years ago. Change is happening. And not everyone can drive a minuscule Euro-car; for people that need to carry a bunch of people or thing (furniture, etc.), they are completely impractical.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 34):

No, definitely not. But there is alot what can be done to improve this process - insulate the houses, replace the windows, replace the furnaces with more efficient models, etc... Without real pressure people won't do that.

Just like cars, many houses built recently and in the near past incorporate these energy saving techniques. It should be common sense to do these things anyway, but is saving that little bit of energy worth sending the economy even more down the tubes? I say no.
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Arrow
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 32):
But again, do you expect people to stop heating their homes? Stop going to work? Most people need to carry out these activities on their lives, and there is not a whole lot to cut out when it comes to oil usage. All it is going to do is put more burden on the average citizen.

Of course not, that's a stupid proposition -- but I do expect them to spend a little on better insulation, turn the thermostat down a few degrees (mine never goes higher than 15C), turn out lights, cold water clothes washing, drive a more efficient car or, even better, find ways not to drive it at all. There are dozens of ways people can use less energy without much change in their lifestyles -- but they won't do it if they aren't forced to do it, and the only "force" we recognize on this continent seems to be the market. So lets get that oil price up north of $150/bbl, and see if, finally, it will drive some serious change.

In North America we have built our whole lives around the car and we're the only place in the word to have done that. As a result, our per capita consumption of energy is downright embarrassing -- and all in the name of freedom. It needs to change, but it won't change until it becomes necessary to change.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Considering how Bush ran every business he ever ran into the ground

You sure about that? Check out his accomplishments as Managing Partner of the Texas Rangers  wink 

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:55 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 36):
So lets get that oil price up north of $150/bbl, and see if, finally, it will drive some serious change.

But as I was saying, the economic impact of that happening is not worth the meager savings it would create in the grand scheme of things. A better idea would be a bigger marketing campaign on the needs of energy consumption (at least a better one that is currently in place). Artificially raising the price of a needed commodity is no way to sway consumer behavior. We have seen in recent price spikes that it has little effect.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 35):
Cars coming out now already incorporate a good deal of energy efficiency, compared with a few years ago. Change is happening. And not everyone can drive a minuscule Euro-car; for people that need to carry a bunch of people or thing (furniture, etc.), they are completely impractical.

The efficiency of NA cars is incomparable to the EU models. And as far as the rest is concerned, the number of people who really need a vehicle capable of transporting a bunch of people or furniture is very limited. That's another problem in North America that we often use the word "need" instead of want.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 35):
Just like cars, many houses built recently and in the near past incorporate these energy saving techniques. It should be common sense to do these things anyway, but is saving that little bit of energy worth sending the economy even more down the tubes? I say no.

Well, to incorporate these changes on large scale would actually help the economy, because it means extra business. And if it won't happen, the fuel prices eventually may rise to uncomfortable levels.
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Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):

The efficiency of NA cars is incomparable to the EU models. And as far as the rest is concerned, the number of people who really need a vehicle capable of transporting a bunch of people or furniture is very limited. That's another problem in North America that we often use the word "need" instead of want.

The United States is far less densely populated than Europe, with far less public transportation opportunities than Europe. Because of this, people are far more dependent on cars. As was said before, ours is a car culture, but more out of the necessity than because we just feel like it. And cut the need vs. want baloney, many people depend on their cars, and anyone with a large family is not going to be able to get by with a tiny car. You're in no position to govern whether someone needs or wants something.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 39):

Well, to incorporate these changes on large scale would actually help the economy, because it means extra business. And if it won't happen, the fuel prices eventually may rise to uncomfortable levels.

And that extra business would offset the huge expenses incurred by all the industries that depend on oil and fuel to function? That's wishful thinking at best.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:44 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 40):
The United States is far less densely populated than Europe, with far less public transportation opportunities than Europe. Because of this, people are far more dependent on cars. As was said before, ours is a car culture, but more out of the necessity than because we just feel like it.

Thank you for the sociology lesson. Let me remind you, that all this can be done in a G5/Corolla/Sentra sized car with 120bhp 1.4l engine. With the speed limits around here more power is not necessary, this size of car is more than enough for daily commute. I guess you have no point here. We just love big engines. I'm not an exception. I'm driving a car lawnmower sized engine (2.4 L) right now, but I'm waiting patiently until my chosen V8 becomes available.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 40):
And cut the need vs. want baloney, many people depend on their cars, and anyone with a large family is not going to be able to get by with a tiny car.

Chill down please. You really don't need to explain to a father of 3 how families work. Yes, families can easily function with smaller vehicles. Did you know that in EU you can get Astra sized seven seaters? BTW, try to look around and see how many of of minivans and large SUV's are transporting nothing but air. Don't kid yourself, we drive large vehicles because we want to, and because we can afford it, not because we need to.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 40):
And that extra business would offset the huge expenses incurred by all the industries that depend on oil and fuel to function? That's wishful thinking at best.

These large expenses will hit all industries depending on fuel if we don't change our behaviour. Deny it is definitely wishful thinking.

[Edited 2008-03-07 16:45:59]
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Arrow
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:50 am



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 38):
A better idea would be a bigger marketing campaign on the needs of energy consumption (at least a better one that is currently in place).

OK -- just got back from running an errand (grocery shopping). I got caught in a 3-light-change traffic jam right around the local junior high school. What caused it? All the moms and dads picking up their able-bodied teenagers to give them a ride home. The weather here is good today, cloudy, mild, and no rain. Now, I'll concede that maybe 10% of those people had a legitimate reason for picking up little johnnie and giving him a ride somewhere -- the rest were saving their kids a half-hour (at the most) walk home. This happens every day, morning and afternoon, regardless of the weather (and I live in a very benign climate, at least by Canadian standards). Of the vehicles I watched pouring out of the school, I'd say more than half were honkin' big SUVs.

We have two serious problems in this country (on the continent as well, I would bet). We burn too much gasoline, and we have a childhood obesity problem. Tell me what kind of "bigger marketing campaign" is going to change that behaviour? I ask the question because, in fact, there is a "walk your kids to school" week early in the fall in our community, and my recollection is that the number of vehicles doing this shuffle didn't drop at all. The ONLY thing that is going to change this behaviour is when mommy says to little Johnnie "No, sweetie, I can't drive you to school today BECAUSE IT COSTS TOO DAMN MUCH!!! You'll have to walk."

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 38):
Artificially raising the price of a needed commodity is no way to sway consumer behavior. We have seen in recent price spikes that it has little effect.

See above. The spikes you are talking about -- measured in real dollars over 40 years -- aren't very big.

PS -- I know I'm an old fart -- but not once in my childhood in suburban Toronto did I EVER get a ride to school. I always walked, and it was about a mile in each direction. Nobody got rides, because most families had only one car and it went to work in the morning. I think we are regressing as a civilization.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
halls120
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:56 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
VIENNA - OPEC on Wednesday accused the U.S. of economic “mismanagement” that it said is pushing oil prices to new record highs and rebuffed calls to boost output, laying the blame on the Bush administration.

Everything bad is Bush's fault. The weak dollar, the poor economy, the price of oil, food shortages, AIDS, global warming, the disappearance of honey bees, and Donald Trump's comb over.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AirCop
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:57 am

Especially Donald Trump's comb over..  crackup 
 
Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 41):
but I'm waiting patiently until my chosen V8 becomes available.

Admitting hypocrisy doesn't help your cause.  Wink

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 41):
Chill down please.

I'm cool as a Canadian. And of course you can fit lots of people in the cars, just make sure not to bring any luggage along.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 41):
Don't kid yourself, we drive large vehicles because we want to, and because we can afford it, not because we need to.

Sure, some people drive them because they're "fashionable," but it would be foolish to lump all people into that category. And because you think you have a better idea of what people should drive, you'll decide for them by manipulating fuel prices?

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 41):
These large expenses will hit all industries depending on fuel if we don't change our behaviour.

The current price increase in crude has little to do with demand in our country, but the increased demand in developing countries and the devalued US currency.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 42):
BECAUSE IT COSTS TOO DAMN MUCH!!! You'll have to walk."

You really think that? The people who can afford those SUV's in the first place are just going to pay more for gas and keep doing what they're doing.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 42):
I think we are regressing as a civilization.

Because kids aren't walking to school? You really do sound like an old fart.  Wink
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
BR715-A1-30
Topic Author
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
Everything bad is Bush's fault.

Not everything, but 99% of it. After all, it wasn't his fault that my foglight burned out 3 months ago..... Or was it  Silly
Puhdiddle
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:31 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 35):
And not everyone can drive a minuscule Euro-car; for people that need to carry a bunch of people or thing (furniture, etc.), they are completely impractical.

Are you saying Europeans have smaller families and don't need to move stuff around? NOT!

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 40):
and anyone with a large family is not going to be able to get by with a tiny car.

That's bull. Recently I sat in the back of a European Honda Civic (a smaller version than the American Civic), and the back seat is roomier and more comfortable than the back seat of a Chevy Tahoe. It's all about efficiency of design. We Americans build big, heavy cars, but we don't use that space or weight nearly as effectively.

[Edited 2008-03-07 17:31:48]
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Newark777
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:41 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
Recently I sat in the back of a European Honda Civic (a smaller version than the American Civic), and the back seat is roomier and more comfortable than the back seat of a Chevy Tahoe.

And the trunk was the same size? That's amazing efficiency!
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Oil Price... It's Bush's Fault?

Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:13 am



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 45):

Admitting hypocrisy doesn't help your cause.

Let's call it a start.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 45):
And of course you can fit lots of people in the cars, just make sure not to bring any luggage along.

Ignorance at it's best.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 45):
And because you think you have a better idea of what people should drive

No, I have an idea what would save fuel without a dramatic change in our lifestyle, with existing technology. Quite rudimentary idea, by the way. If you have a better one, please present it. Only realistic ones, please.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 45):
you'll decide for them by manipulating fuel prices?

That was Arrow's idea. I think it's impossible to decrease the demand for fuel just by taxing the hell out of it European style without ruining the economy. However, if nothing changes, the fuel prices may eventually hit a level that will cause a lot of problems.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 45):
The current price increase in crude has little to do with demand in our country, but the increased demand in developing countries and the devalued US currency.

While it's true, the USA (4 % of Earth's population) still consumes 20 pro cent of global crude oil production. So a decrease in oil consumption in USA would likely have an impact on oil prices.
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