richm
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Hi,

Does anyone know if there are air brake kits available for cars? Now I'm not talking about the kind that they fit to trucks. I'm talking about ones which are similar to those fitted on planes. I know I'd look like a bit of a plank and the person behind me will probably think I've been smoking something. (Which is also the reason why I'm posting this on here and not on some car forum - I'm sure you guys understand!  Smile) but imo it'd be pretty cool to have air brakes extending during heavy braking. So does anyone have any suggestions? I'm not even sure if such a thing exists. I did do a search on Google, but could only find the normal type of automotive air brakes!

Cheers!

- Rich
 
AsstChiefMark
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:40 pm

Geez Louise! Don't let MCOflyer find out about this!
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WrenchBender
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:45 pm

The term you are looking for is "Speed Brakes" not "air brakes". Short of high performance special purpose vehicles I can't think of any.

WrenchBender
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ajd1992
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:53 pm

The Bugatti Veyron has one at the back but then again that does do 250mph/400kmh so that sorta needs one  Silly

Other than that, i don't even know where about you'd mount the thing, plus all the associated hydraulics and whatnot.
 
ShyFlyer
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:54 pm

Just open the doors.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
Queso
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:54 pm

At the speeds passenger (or sports) cars travel, speed brakes are useless unless they are larger than would be practical. Want proof? Push your car door open at 70mph and see how much it slows. Almost nothing at all. And that is a large surface area.

Look at the size of drag chutes on dragsters, they are many square meters in size and they begin to deflate as the speed decreases below 150mph or so.

Another good example is the travel trailer I pull behind my 4x4 truck. It is about 80 square feet in surface area but the truck still easily pulls it. I can coast down a moderate grade at 70mph without adding any power and still accelerate.
 
VonRichtofen
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:54 pm

Air Brakes for cars? What's next big rig steering wheels optional on Dodge Calibers?
 
oly720man
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:02 pm



Quoting RichM (Thread starter):
I'm not even sure if such a thing exists.

Very unlikely. At car speeds under braking they would hardly have any effect. It would be like putting air brakes on a racehorse.

Also check your car insurance to see if they're happy with the change, should you go ahead with it. A non standard item may invalidate your policy.
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AirTranTUS
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:20 pm

I think NASCAR has airbrakes on the roofs of those cars. You see them pop up in crashes.
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AsstChiefMark
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 8):
I think NASCAR has airbrakes on the roofs of those cars.

Those a speed brakes. Air brakes are found on large trucks. They make a "compressed air leaking" sound when they're applied.
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WrenchBender
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:27 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 8):
I think NASCAR has airbrakes on the roofs of those cars. You see them pop up in crashes.

Yes they deploy when the vehicles go backwards acting as spoilers to prevent flip overs.

WrenchBender
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RacingGreen07
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:29 pm



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 7):
Very unlikely such thing exists.

The McLaren SLR boats an air-brake that deploys upon hard braking.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 7):
At car speeds under braking they would hardly have any effect.

I heard the Bugatti Veyron's air brake ALONE has the same stopping power as a normal sized saloon!


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richm
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Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:42 pm



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 11):
IThe McLaren SLR boats an air-brake that deploys upon hard braking.


Big version: Width: 600 Height: 314 File size: 56kb

Wow, that looks impressive. I'd love to have one of those on my car!

Cheers.  Smile

- Rich
 
MD-90
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 11):

The McLaren SLR boats an air-brake that deploys upon hard braking.

But does it actually provide any worthwhile braking force or does it just act to preserve the car's balance under hard braking? Since under heavy braking the c.g shifts towards the front, causing the rear end to lighten up. Braking too much in a turn might be helped by having that spoiler.

And I'm not sure if that's actually an "air-brake." I'd call it a spoiler.
 
RacingGreen07
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:16 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 13):
And I'm not sure if that's actually an "air-brake."

I kinda see what you mean. But even McLaren themselves call it an air-brake.

Deployed at settings of either 10, 30 or 65 degrees.

At 30 degrees the air brake provides down force to keep the car glued to the road.

At 65 degrees it increases a cars stability in turns.

In a straight line the air-brake is very useful. Like the Bugatti Veyron, the air brake creates as much stopping power as an ordinary saloon vehicle.
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 10):

Yes they deploy when the vehicles go backwards acting as spoilers to prevent flip overs.

Tell that to Elliot Sadler  Wink I think he spends at least a few races every year on the roof.
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oly720man
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:13 pm



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 11):
I heard the Bugatti Veyron's air brake ALONE has the same stopping power as a normal sized saloon!

At what speed?

The drag from the air brake at 250mph on the Veyron may be the same as the braking force on a saloon at 70mph. The air brake also acts to force the rear of the car down and increase the wheel braking efficiency.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:31 pm



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 11):
I heard the Bugatti Veyron's air brake ALONE has the same stopping power as a normal sized saloon!

Yes however this would be around 400 kph. Most Saloon cars I have driven can not reach these speeds  Wink and I have driven a BMW 745Li and a few others of that caliber. Air friction goes up exponentially I believe. So the amount of effect the "Speed Break" has is quite substantial at around 400kph but around 200 kph it would not have nearly as much affect. It would also create alot of down force on the back end of the car helping you maintain control. I would hesitate to call it a spoiler like an airplane because spoilers are used to distrub lift, helping an airplane stay on the ground and what not and using alot more energy to fly at the same speed/altitude which would do one of two things keep an airspeed constant while you decend or keeping your altitude constant while you slow down. I have also heard that spoilers are sometimes used inorder to spool up the engines (to avoid spool up time) however that is used mostly close to the ground with gear and flaps out so I highly doubt this is a practical method if used at all.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
Geez Louise! Don't let MCOflyer find out about this!

I already have. I think it is a good idea.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):

Those a speed brakes. Air brakes are found on large trucks. They make a "compressed air leaking" sound when they're applied.

Trucks have a jake brake. Shown here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UCvXKgEo5i8

I need one of these. I could modify a one but my car is aerodynamic. No room one Big D (my Dodge Caliber) unless you integrated it into the roof. That would look cool. Activate a button and hit the brakes and you come to an instant stop. Predigious.

Kinghunter
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:33 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 18):
I already have. I think it is a good idea.

The title was changed since I posted that. It was originally, "Air Brakes for Cars."

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 18):
Trucks have a jake brake.

Yep. They're illegal to use in most places around here. IIRC, it's a $500 to $1000 fine. The only place the truckers are allowed to use them is on the open road.
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cpd
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:08 am



Quoting RichM (Reply 12):
Wow, that looks impressive. I'd love to have one of those on my car!

Others that have one include:

Isdera Commendatore 112i
McLaren F1 (non-LM, GT and GTR models)
Bugatti Veyron
Mercedes Benz SLR
Lamborghini Murcielago / LP640
Ferrari F140 (aka Enzo Ferrari)
Porsche Carrera GT

On the Mclaren F1, it angles up at certain speeds, and under brakes, it goes almost vertical. On the F1, the spoiler serves a second purpose for cooling the rear brakes. Once in operation, it also opens up some air ducts for brake cooling.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:45 am



Quoting Cpd (Reply 20):

On the Mclaren F1, it angles up at certain speeds, and under brakes, it goes almost vertical. On the F1, the spoiler serves a second purpose for cooling the rear brakes. Once in operation, it also opens up some air ducts for brake cooling.

Sounds like a jake brake for semi's. Both reduce wear and tear on parts thus causing a longer service interval and reducing replacement of both parts.

Kinghunter
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57AZ
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:33 am



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):
Yep. They're illegal to use in most places around here. IIRC, it's a $500 to $1000 fine. The only place the truckers are allowed to use them is on the open road.

That generally assumes that the Jake brake is on the engine. On some newer coaches, the retarder is on the transmission and can be used pretty much anywhere-virtually silent compared to the engine brake. Out here in the West, Jake brakes are permitted pretty much anywhere unless posted otherwise. Nothing like descending a 6%, 4 mile grade from a 10,400 foot pass without touching the air!

Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 14):
I kinda see what you mean. But even McLaren themselves call it an air-brake.

And they're wrong-it's a speed brake. To operate a vehicle with air brakes one has to have a Commercial Driver's License with Air Brake Endorsement or additional training for private coaches. Unlike hydraulic brakes, air brakes are not idiot proof and one has to know how they work to safely operate the vehicle.
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cpd
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:20 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 21):
Sounds like a jake brake for semi's. Both reduce wear and tear on parts thus causing a longer service interval and reducing replacement of both parts.

Kinghunter

Gordon Murray used the airflow around and underneath the F1 for many purposes, some of it is for sucking the car down on to the road at speed (amplified by fans), others include the duct that runs from the rear brake discs up to the spoiler, where the movement of the brake discs causes air to be sucked in the duct for cooling purposes.

That's part of the reason it remained the fastest thing on the road for so long - he applied Formula 1 design principles to a road car, making things serve dual purposes, or be as light and small as possible. (eg, the steering assembly weighing just 1.5kg - instead of 12kg as on a normal car).
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:25 am



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 22):

And they're wrong-it's a speed brake. To operate a vehicle with air brakes one has to have a Commercial Driver's License with Air Brake Endorsement or additional training for private coaches. Unlike hydraulic brakes, air brakes are not idiot proof and one has to know how they work to safely operate the vehicle.

Thank you. I already knew that but wanna know why they call it that?

Mark,

They are not illegal if you use them properly as in stopping. That is what they are designed for. If not, you would see trucks going off steep grades all the time. I like the jake and am a firm believer in them.

Everyone knows what a sunroof looks like so that is what my speed brake would look like except it would be smaller like 6in tall and the exact width of my car. My car will only do 126 (gov limited), so a good addition to the speed brake would be air holes in the front bumper (where the lights are at the bottom of the bumper) to cool the brakes.

Kinghunter
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57AZ
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:51 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 24):

They are not illegal if you use them properly as in stopping. That is what they are designed for. If not, you would see trucks going off steep grades all the time. I like the jake and am a firm believer in them.

Correct. Their main purpose is to control the speed of the vehicle on steep or long descending grades without requiring the driver to make excessive use of the air brakes. Excessive use of air brakes will result in heating the brake drums, causing them to expand and inducing brake fading.
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Scooter01
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:04 am

These are some pics of a 1955 Mercedes Benz 300SLR...
http://i29.tinypic.com/168d45k.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/jhfqq1.jpg

-not sure if I would be comfortable using them though.....

Scooter01
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andz
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:14 am



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 11):
The McLaren SLR boats an air-brake that deploys upon hard braking.

I just saw Hamster driving it in Cape Town on Top Gear, and he showed it working, looks naff lol.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:43 pm



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 25):
Correct. Their main purpose is to control the speed of the vehicle on steep or long descending grades without requiring the driver to make excessive use of the air brakes. Excessive use of air brakes will result in heating the brake drums, causing them to expand and inducing brake fading.

Thank you sir for confirming my suspicions. I have seen several and can have my friends who drive semi's post pictures of them on here.

Kinghunter
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:52 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 24):
They are not illegal if you use them properly as in stopping.

I'll take a picture of the police officer ticketing a trucker for using Jake brakes in a populated area. Every community in the area has posted that using them is illegal. It's a pretty common law in the upper midwest.

Nothing worse than being awakened at 2 AM by a jackass trucker.
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Francoflier
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:20 pm

I think there's a huge amount of confusion on this thread about all sorts of braking devices that have nothing in common...

The brake RichM was reffering to is an aerodynamic device that produces drag. Found on few cars and only effective at very high speeds. Every manufacturer calls it something different because so few cars boast it that there's no need for name standardization. It's a fancy gadjet anyway, so whatever it takes to attract the buyer works...

The 'air brakes' trucks and semis use is a simple drum brake system, except the actuators pushing the pads are pneumatically powered through the on-board compressed air system.

The 'Jake brake' is an engine system which modifies the engine valve sequence. It opens a valve at top of travel of the compression stage so as to take advantage of the braking force provided by that compression without loosing its effect when the compressed air springs the piston back down (since diesels aren't throttled). All that compressed air from the cylinder is exhausted, hence the noise and legal issues.

And then there's the electromagnetic brake, which is used on trucks too, but has nothing to do with air and wasn't mentionned here anyway...
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57AZ
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:48 pm



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 30):
I think there's a huge amount of confusion on this thread about all sorts of braking devices that have nothing in common...

Not really. We're just splitting hares and the incorrect usage of terms. You left out transmission retarders. They have the same effect as Jake brakes but do not make any significant amount of noise. Most coaches use them in addition to the air brakes and emergency spring brakes.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:52 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 29):

Nothing worse than being awakened at 2 AM by a jackass trucker.

Well I would rather be awakened by him than his truck crashing through my house. Don't you agree?

Kinghunter
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:59 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 32):
Don't you agree?

No.

There's no need to Jake brake to go from 45 mph to 25 mph in 1500 feet on flat terrain. Standard brakes will do fine.
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jetmech
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:26 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 30):
The 'Jake brake' is an engine system which modifies the engine valve sequence. It opens a valve at top of travel of the compression stage so as to take advantage of the braking force provided by that compression without loosing its effect when the compressed air springs the piston back down (since diesels aren't throttled). All that compressed air from the cylinder is exhausted, hence the noise and legal issues.

Interesting. There actually appears to be two types of retardation device available to large vehicles that use the engine as the retardation device. There is the compression release "jake brake" as you have mentioned, as well as an exhaust brake that restricts the passage of exhaust gasses from the engine.

I was only ever aware of the latter. I wonder which of the two is the most popular device? It appears that the "jake brake" would require more comprehensive and intrusive modifications for fitment.

Regards, JetMech
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Francoflier
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:25 am



Quoting JetMech (Reply 34):
as well as an exhaust brake that restricts the passage of exhaust gasses from the engine.

Interesting... That one compresses the exhaust gases in the exhaust manifold during the fourth stroke. It makes sense, as the noise can then be muffled in the regular exhaust muffler.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 31):
You left out transmission retarders.

How do those work?
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57AZ
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:18 pm

Transmission retarders generallty consist of a vaned flywheel buit into the retarder housing. When the driver activates the retarder, the transmission directs oil into the retarder housing. This action counteracts the flywheel, absorbing energy through the driveshaft. The absorbed energy creates heat which is dissapated through the engine's cooling system. Resistance to the flywheel is augmented by stators inside the housing. The more oil that is admitted into the housing, the stronger the braking from the retarder.

Transit coaches are built so that when the operator depresses the brake pedal, the retarder kicks in immediately while the brake will not activate until the pedal is depressed further. On highway coaches, the retarder is controlled using a joystick mounted on the left side of the driver's dash panel. The position will either have three or six positions, depending on the selection of the company. Most companies warn drivers not to make sudded speed corrections employing the retarder alone as it is not interconnected with the brake lamps. A coach can easily drop 15 to 20 mph if full retard is selected, creating the possibility of a rear end collision.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:27 pm

alan, How do you know so much about this stuff?

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57AZ
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:38 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 37):
alan, How do you know so much about this stuff?

Reason I know what I do about braking is that I spent a year driving over the road motorcoaches that were outfitted with transmission retarders and air brakes. I also spent ten years working for a tourist railroad in the Operations and Mechanical Departments and am the Training Manager for a street railway here in Tucson.

The big difference between the transmission retarder and jake brake is that the transmission retarder uses pnumatic pressure from the transmission oil to provide resistance and braking versus exhaust gases.
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Francoflier
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RE: Speed Brakes For Cars

Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:41 am



Quoting 57AZ (Reply 36):

Thanks!
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