MadameConcorde
Topic Author
Posts: 9218
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:11 pm

There seems to be more and more knife attacks (stabbings) in and around London. Some victims like the two young French scientists are being stabbed to death and it seems that these attacks are becoming frequent. This is horrible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7501258.stm

Four stabbed to death on same day

Four men, including a teenager, were stabbed to death in one day in separate attacks in London.

A 19-year-old youth, who has not been named, suffered multiple stab wounds in Edmonton, north London.

Later on Thursday two men in their 20s were killed in attacks a few miles away in Leyton and Walthamstow, east London.

A man in his 40s died from stab wounds after being found at the back of a disused pub in Tottenham High Road, Tottenham, north London.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:16 pm

There are so many stabbings because guns are illegal... Gun control works...  Cool
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:20 pm

Honesty...gun control.

People aren't able to defend themselves from criminals who aren't able to afford black market weapons.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:25 pm

Neither of the above.

Not every answer is guns.

Knife crime has certainly spiralled out of control this year, and noone really knows the answer.

For sure if guns were in circulation - the problem would be FAR worse.

All of these knifing incidents are in run down, poor areas, with high levels of violence (not just knife crime). With guns, we would be seeing a news story every hour.
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:38 pm



Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 3):
All of these knifing incidents are in run down, poor areas, with high levels of violence (not just knife crime).

See, I think the same way, it is a society issue, not the tool used.

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 3):

Knife crime has certainly spiralled out of control this year, and noone really knows the answer.

From what I have heard there is now a movement by some of your doctors to ban "pointy" knives.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:32 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:03 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):
People aren't able to defend themselves from criminals who aren't able to afford black market weapons.

How many of these attacks were related to self-defense? I'd guess they just couldn't reach a gun at the moment and had to do it with knives.
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
MadameConcorde
Topic Author
Posts: 9218
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:21 pm

Mr Bonomo, a student in the proteins that cause infectious disease, had been stabbed 196 times, with up to half the wounds inflicted after he was dead. Mr Ferez, who hoped to become an expert in ecofriendly fuels, had 47 separate injuries.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4265622.ece

Is New Cross also a run down and poor area with high levels of violence?

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 3):
All of these knifing incidents are in run down, poor areas, with high levels of violence

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 728
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:03 pm

The reason for all these killings is because youths think its cool to have a knife and there is no deterrent. If you kill someone here you serve a very pathetic sentence or don't even get caught. I live in east London and commute across London and its clear to see, the criminals are stabbing people because they can without fear.
These incidents have largely been confined within the young black male community who constantly blame society for the way they are behaving saying "they have nothing to do except turn to crime"

Not a day goes by without at least one person being stabbed to death in London now and its continually increasing, yet if the police increase stop and search everybody claims its racist to predominantly stop black youths but the figures speak for themselves, it is predominantly black youths killing each other. Not middle class white kids who they seem to always stop at stations allowing the hoodies to walk straight through in order to meet equality and diversity targets.
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:35 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
Is New Cross also a run down and poor area with high levels of violence?

New Cross is very run down and is over-represented with immigrants, but it doesn't have a dangerous reputation yet. However, I really hate meeting friends there and I don't like changing trains there after dark or walking back to my car.

Goldsmith's College is round there so lots of students knocking around in the pubs and stuff. Still a bit menacing in places and you would have to be very careful.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3542
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:46 pm

It probably started out with just a couple of people carrying, then other people though they have to carry one for self defence, then before you know it just about everyone is carrying a blade. Apparently there is also more chance of the blade being used against you even if you are carrying it for self defence !!.


It's also partly PC gone mad. The Police are between a rock and a hard place because of it and also because of the pathetic sentances handed out by senile judges who live in mansions in the country where that kind of thing doesn't happen !!.

Also the lack of morals in society these days, in a society where teenage girls aspire to be glamour models or footballers wives and guys just want what the footballers have, but don't want to work to get it. We have the highest teenage pregnacy rates in Europe, where these young girls are having kids, but are little more than kids themselves and let their offspring run wild without any form of dicipline and often a lack of a father figure in the child's life doesn't help either.

The kids feel helpless and alone and turn to the gangs who then become their "family". If these young men feel that they are safe in an environment with their peers around them, there is another option where they can feel secure and actually help society by learning morals and discipline - BRING BACK NATIONAL SERVICE !!!.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 5914
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 1):
There are so many stabbings because guns are illegal... Gun control works...



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 1):
Honesty...gun control.

People aren't able to defend themselves from criminals who aren't able to afford black market weapons

You guys just love stories like this, don't you? One of the reasons stabbings are up is that kids are fearful for their safety and carrying knives for protection, and, unfortunately, they use them. The situation would be far worse if they were carrying guns instead of knives. Note that these attacks are in what are generally considered less-than-safe areas.

I hate to disappoint you guys, but an increase in incidents like this will NOT have people clamouring for the right to carry even more dangerous weapons. The way to go will be through increased policing, and spot-checks, until the problem is eliminated, or at least reduce to "acceptable" levels.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 728
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 9):
BRING BACK NATIONAL SERVICE !!!.

You must be joking, Why should I have to do National Service. I respect the country but have no interest what so ever in having any connection or commitment to our armed forces. I work hard at college why should i have to go through national service because some backward children can't control themselves.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3122
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:13 pm



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 7):
The reason for all these killings is because youths think its cool to have a knife and there is no deterrent. If you kill someone here you serve a very pathetic sentence or don't even get caught. I live in east London and commute across London and its clear to see, the criminals are stabbing people because they can without fear.
These incidents have largely been confined within the young black male community who constantly blame society for the way they are behaving saying "they have nothing to do except turn to crime"

Our judicial system is beyond contempt. All decisions on whether to prosecute rest with the Crown Prosecution Service who appear to be only interested in their success rate, thus they decline to take many cases to court leaving the Police to wonder why they bother to arrest miscreants in the 1st place. Then if they do decide to prosecute they often accept a guilty plea for a lesser offence in place of the original charge as they think this is "in the public interest" By this system an attempted murder results in a conviction for assault. Finally the judges are working to sentencing guidelines which are totally wet and result in custodial sentences for only the most serious crimes.

An example of our sentencing policy can be seen from the recent Naomi Campbell case, she received 200 hours community service and a paltry fine due to her previous good character and lack of criminal record, because the judge would be hauled over the coals if he had taken into consideration her US conviction or long history of abusive behaviour which hadn't resulted in a conviction.
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 10):
Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 1):
There are so many stabbings because guns are illegal... Gun control works...



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 1):
Honesty...gun control.

People aren't able to defend themselves from criminals who aren't able to afford black market weapons

You guys just love stories like this, don't you?

No I don't love it, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why the news in the UK is about stabbings... Gun don't kill people... Take away the guns, the people will still kill people...

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 12):
Our judicial system is beyond contempt. All decisions on whether to prosecute rest with the Crown Prosecution Service who appear to be only interested in their success rate, thus they decline to take many cases to court leaving the Police to wonder why they bother to arrest miscreants in the 1st place. Then if they do decide to prosecute they often accept a guilty plea for a lesser offence in place of the original charge as they think this is "in the public interest" By this system an attempted murder results in a conviction for assault. Finally the judges are working to sentencing guidelines which are totally wet and result in custodial sentences for only the most serious crimes.

Where I live, criminals do hard time. Possess a gun during a felony, 10 years... Fire it, 20 years, injure someone, Life... No early release... And victims are allowed to shoot first...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:41 pm

I think this calls for an immediate ban on knives in the UK.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3542
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:47 pm



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 11):
Why should I have to do National Service. I respect the country but have no interest what so ever in having any connection or commitment to our armed forces. I work hard at college why should i have to go through national service because some backward children can't control themselves

Point taken, however rather than being restricted soley to the armed forces, people could choose to do it in a certain area such as caring for the elderly, or helping out on community projects etc as well as having the military option for those that choose that route ?.

Just idea's, as the government doesn't seem to be doing anything about it !!.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 5914
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:29 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 13):
No I don't love it, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why the news in the UK is about stabbings... Gun don't kill people...

The same tired old cliché . . . if you say it often enough I suppose you'll actually believe it.

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
I think this calls for an immediate ban on knives in the UK

Why? Knives have many useful purposes.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:39 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
I think this calls for an immediate ban on knives in the UK.



Why cause when we have a shooting the NRA supprters always call for more guns, cause even if guns are the problem, more guns have to be the solution. So with that same logic then more knifes for everyone.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
JoshSixtySeven
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:52 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:58 am

Another example of how everything hits the fan when you let an unelected Scotsman run things.

Don't get me wrong I'm not blaming anyone for the things that go on in London these days, but it's outrageous that you can't have some form of self defense weapon.

Better yet, let's get stringent with offenders, and give our police forces both the man power and the weaponary to go and target these thugs in the places they reside. I remember seeing some whistle blower type thing a year or so ago, in which a cop spoke out about how his force wouldn't dare go into known gang hang outs as he knew they'd be massacred.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd sure feel safer being allowed to carry either my telescopic baton or a gun.
Speed has never killed anyone, it's suddenly becoming stationary that gets you...
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:20 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):

Probably because they didn't have guns to shoot each other with instead.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 10):
One of the reasons stabbings are up is that kids are fearful for their safety and carrying knives for protection, and, unfortunately, they use them.

And how does that make it any different from any other country?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:34 am



Quoting JoshSixtySeven (Reply 18):
Better yet, let's get stringent with offenders,

I definitely get the impression that the UK is sometimes way too lenient when it comes to prison sentences, just as the US is sometimes way too strict. But be careful what you wish for.

The reality is that changing a sentence from 10 to 20 years or 25 years to life makes little difference. All you really accomplish by keeping people past age 60 or so is wasting money.

Of course sending a repeat offender to jail for a week means nothing. Sentences are punishments, but they also serve to reduce the risk to society. Sentences have to be long enough that they're feared. For some serious offenders (repeat violent offenders) sentences need to continue until age has pacified the person.

Longer jail terms generally get a decreasing return on investment. The fear, and thus deterrent effect, of a possible jail term increases far less than linearly with its length, while the cost to the government increases more than linearly.

The US example shows some of the problems you get with long jail terms. People that get long prison terms for things like drug possession, theft, etc., especially for a first offense, become better criminals in jail. Many lose important family bonds, jobs, etc., things that they need to stay away from crime. Thankfully the UK does not seem to suffer from the reactionary criminal justice policies seen in the US. All too often we react to a single crime in the news, or a perceived epidemic of some sort with calls for doubling prison terms, etc.

I don't say this out of sympathy for offenders, but as a citizen that does not want the government to waste money on prisons. The US has a massive incarceration rate (and cost). What does it get us?

Quoting JoshSixtySeven (Reply 18):
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd sure feel safer being allowed to carry either my telescopic baton or a gun.

Sure, but I'd feel a lot more scared of the borderline thugs that would start carrying those things if they were legal. There are plenty of "law abiding" people out there who would become much more dangerous when armed. Having a weapon can mean the difference between ignoring a perceived insult and having the guts to "stand up" to the offender.

I trust myself with a weapon, but I sure as hell don't trust everyone else, even if they know that I might be armed.
 
virgin744
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 5:51 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:42 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 13):
Where I live, criminals do hard time. Possess a gun during a felony, 10 years... Fire it, 20 years, injure someone, Life... No early release... And victims are allowed to shoot first...

That's why I love the American Judicial system over the British one!  thumbsup 
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12495
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:53 am

One also has to consider the high rates of youth unemployment, broken families, lousy schools, weakened cops, the drug trade and what seems to be much higher rates of mental illness today in the UK, like in some areas of the USA.
Get the young into 'make work' jobs if on the dole instead of importing workers or some type of paid community service. Make decisions to revise the criminal sentencing laws and remove judges that don't do the job. Allow more patrol cops to carry guns on their person. Go after the drug trade that leads to a lot of crime in general. Deal with mental illness better instead of giving some ill person some meds and letting them out on the street without proper support.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:32 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 13):
Where I live, criminals do hard time.

Hard time costs us money, both direct costs and indirect costs (lower tax revenue, more welfare for the prisoner's family, etc.). A lot of the people doing hard time really are not worth the money required to lock them up. The trick is figuring out who's worth the money. Mandatory hard time is, for many crimes and criminals, mandatory wasted money.

The problem is if you shorten 100 sentences (say via parole) and produce 99 productive, law abiding citizens and 1 violent repeat offender (yes, the numbers are idealized), that 1 will make the news and lead to calls for longer sentences and the elimination of parole.
 
lewis
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:01 pm



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 7):
I live in east London and commute across London and its clear to see, the criminals are stabbing people because they can without fear.

When I lived in East London there were lots of places I would avoid being at during night-time or sometimes even during the day. New Cross to the south of where I lived is very bad. One of my friends that lived near New Cross Gate was stabbed in a nighbus, on his thigh and the criminal involved didn't even want to mug him.
 
User avatar
allrite
Posts: 2400
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:39 pm

The British justice system has been hamstrung ever since the Australian government implemented restrictions like skills tests on immigrants from the UK. No longer can Britain ship out its miscreants to the colonies, leaving the mother country to be enjoyed by decent folk who only speak the Queen's English (and with a old fashioned BBC accent too).  Smile

More seriously now, it would be interesting to compare current crime rates with those of 220 years ago. High unemployment amongst certain communities (eg famers and manual workers displaced by the industrial revolution who immigrated to the cities cf modern immigrant groups), binge drinking and drug problems (you'd once rather drink gin than London's water).

As modern society places a greater emphasis on material wealth (from plasma screens to diamond "gangsta/footballer bling"), less emphasis on knowledge and education and treats people as financial commodities rather than with respect, is it any wonder many youth are a bit screwed up.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
davehammer
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:28 pm

Before I start I will say how horrible it must be for the victims of violent crime anywhere, and they all have my sympathies.

One of the reasons for the obsession with knife crime is that it is flavour of the month with the media. The actual rates of this type of crime are barely higher than recent years, just that the media has taken up a crusade against it. While I commend the media for highlighting the problem, this usually provokes one of two responses.

First you have the 'Daily Mail' type response - Hang em, Flog em, It was never like this in our day. Lets all make them do National Service. It's all that rap music and stuff they listen to etc. What we need is for the police to just kick seven shades out turd them and lock them up.

Then we have the 'Guardianista' response - It's not their fault, they're products of a society that are against them. The Police hate them, everyone hates them, they're just lashing out. Lets throw money at the problem and hope it goes away. If it doesn't it's all down to an 'ism' of some description.

This then creates outrage on either side of the argument. As a Londoner I don't walk around fearful of being stabbed. That would simply mean letting them win, if I need to go somewhere I will. Some areas are best not to visit but thats the same in any major city in the world, Paris, NYC, anywhere. If people think otherwise they're deluding themselves. What has changed in recent years however is the way in which people are so quick to label the police as a result of the McPhearson report into the Steven Lawrence killing which effectively branded the police as 'institutionally racist.' This has in effect hamstrung efforts by the police to get to grips with crime largely specific to ethnic minority groups. The obsessive labelling of 'hoodie' culture doesn't help either. It's also in part fuelled the 'Everyone is against us' stance from some of those who are committing these crimes.

What is clear IMHO is that 1) The Media isn't helping. 2) The Police are far too hamstrung with regard to profiling and anything to actually take a serious stance on this. 3) There has to be a conscious movement away from crime by these kids, and for them to stop blaming their 'ills' on society and anything else. Society doesn't make you stab people. Get out, get a job, get respect the way that everyone else does. Respect is earned not a god given right.

Quoting Allrite (Reply 25):
As modern society places a greater emphasis on material wealth (from plasma screens to diamond "gangsta/footballer bling"), less emphasis on knowledge and education and treats people as financial commodities rather than with respect, is it any wonder many youth are a bit screwed up.

Absolutely.

In London, the Rich/Poor divide is very geographically obvious. This has been exemplified by Docklands Million pound apartment complexes right next to housing estates. The "have's" in gated complexes just along the street from those surviving off dole money. This phenomena was exemplified in the BBC programme 'The Tower' which charted the fortunes of the Pepys estate in Deptford after one of the tower blocks was sold to private developers to be made into luxury flats.


I digress, I've gone well off course but I think much of the change has to come from those who are committing a crime. There are so so many opportunities for these people in London to make something of themselves, many just don't seem to want to take them.
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:49 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
See, I think the same way, it is a society issue, not the tool used.

Yes - you could argue that. Hence why most of this violence occurs in run down, poor areas.

You really want to give them guns?
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3122
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:44 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 20):
Sentences are punishments, but they also serve to reduce the risk to society.

Here in the UK we are told that the purpose of prisons is to rehabilitate people, not to keep them from harming the innocent; anyone else think this is total ************ ?
 
DC10extender
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:09 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:53 am

Well, I can't exactly speak for Britain but these things are usually the cause of liberal judges giving very lenient punishments to law breakers. At least in my county that is.
Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:41 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 1):
There are so many stabbings because guns are illegal... Gun control works...

Most gun-rights supporters on here say that banning guns doesn't lead to less gun violence because criminals will still be able to get guns, and can produce some valid statistics to support that.

But UK gun violence rates are extremely low. So why are the criminals in the UK seemingly not able to get guns? Do they have them but choose not to use them? This seems to be at odds with the "banning guns only prevents law-abiding citizens from having them to protect themselves" philosophy.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:51 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 20):
Sentences have to be long enough that they're feared. For some serious offenders (repeat violent offenders) sentences need to continue until age has pacified the person.

The best deterrent, besides a punishment fitting the crime, is the knowledge that you WILL be caught, that you will NOT be able to get away with it and that you WILL be held accountable. This, on the other hand means more cops ON THE STREET, like old fashioned foot patrols.
In manycountries though such patrols (and the neighbourhood cop of yesteryear, who knew everybody on his beat) have been replaced by mobile units, which only come on call, due to cost cutting.

Quoting Allrite (Reply 25):
More seriously now, it would be interesting to compare current crime rates with those of 220 years ago. High unemployment amongst certain communities (eg famers and manual workers displaced by the industrial revolution who immigrated to the cities cf modern immigrant groups), binge drinking and drug problems (you'd once rather drink gin than London's water).

220 years ago you still had the medieval "bloody code" in England (the legal system was only reformed in the 1830s), with more than 200 capital offenses, including those, which today would be considered minor.
Even back then judges or juries, who e.g. wouldn't wouldn't want to sentence a starving child to death over the theft of a piece of bread, would rather find it not guilty.
So, if the punishment is seen as being too harsh, it can have exactly the opposite effect, crime does not get punished.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:48 am



Quoting Davehammer (Reply 26):
One of the reasons for the obsession with knife crime is that it is flavour of the month with the media. The actual rates of this type of crime are barely higher than recent years, just that the media has taken up a crusade against it. While I commend the media for highlighting the problem, this usually provokes one of two responses.

Flavour of the month is certainly a factor. I can remember a time - but vague when but probably early 50s when there was a great fuss about knife crime. I would be surprised if this is the first "knife wave" since then.

No Allrite, before you ask my export to Australia was not a major factor in the decline of that 50s wave of knife crime.  Big grin

Then again the UK sent us a certain person prominent in WA for a while who was close to a one man crime wave!!

Unpopular thought but taking drugs out of the hands of criminals would probably be a help. Each time you introduce a new drug law, you increase the price of the drugs and make the associated crime more profitable and very soon after much more violent. If folk want to zonk themselves out (as long as they do not harm anyone else), maybe that is preferable to corrupting a fair proportion of the society and then knifing or shooting another part. I know there is a problem with some types of synthetic drugs that turn folk violent, but I sure a competent chemist could fix that!!!
 
egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
There seems to be more and more knife attacks (stabbings) in and around London. Some victims like the two young French scientists are being stabbed to death and it seems that these attacks are becoming frequent. This is horrible

Whilst I agree about the deaths the problem is not isolated to London say it happens in many of our cities such as Manchester , Leeds & Birmingham. I suspect more of the knife attacks are reported in London.

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
I think this calls for an immediate ban on knives in the UK.

Other than than the fact is they use kitchen knives more often than not.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:31 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
The best deterrent, besides a punishment fitting the crime, is the knowledge that you WILL be caught, that you will NOT be able to get away with it and that you WILL be held accountable. This, on the other hand means more cops ON THE STREET, like old fashioned foot patrols.

 checkmark  But give them Segways, otherwise how are they going to gain weight? Big grin In my last residence I noted during a parade that there was a very strong correlation between a police officer's age and his/her weight, much more than with the general population.

Quoting DC10extender (Reply 29):
Here in the UK we are told that the purpose of prisons is to rehabilitate people, not to keep them from harming the innocent; anyone else think this is total ************ ?

No. If you can rehabilitate someone you prevent harm to the innocent. The question is whether this can be made to work. Many prisons tend to dehabilitate people. Take a drug user, petty thief, etc. and stick him in jail for a year. Usually you'll end up producing a better criminal. Prisons that provide education, etc. do produce slightly better outcomes. How much better? Probably not that much.

In the end, old age works very well at rehabilitation.
 
virgin744
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 5:51 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:26 am



Quoting DC10extender (Reply 29):
Well, I can't exactly speak for Britain but these things are usually the cause of liberal judges giving very lenient punishments to law breakers. At least in my county that is.

Unfortunately, UK judges can only sentence criminals to the length of prison term thats written in the books for the crime in question. For example, if stabbing someone (who is injured & not killed) is punishable by 5 years in jail then the judge cannot pass a sentence more than 5 years regardless of how unrepentant the attacker was or how vicious the attack was. Furthermore, most knife attacks are most likely probably only suspended sentences rather than a 5, 10 or 20yr jail time, but in this current climate its possible that knife crime is taken more seriously and attackers are made examples of.
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:08 am

Immigrants, particularly those from Eastern Europe and former Communist countries, think nothing about carrying knives on them in public. With a flood of immigrants in the UK came a flood of people walking about with knives, so the people who felt threatened also started arming themselves with knives either for self defence or, sadly, on the estates where there is a large immigrant population, to give them some status.

Unfortunately the police and politicians ignored the problem, triggered by Tony Blair and his Government's decision to open the UK borders and ensure "political correctness" by allowing the immigrants to live like they were still in their own country.

However, knife crimes in the UK are in reality no worse than many other countries – it is just that a knife crime warrants headline news in the UK, whereas in somewhere like Detroit it is an everyday occurrence.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
bill142
Posts: 7861
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:16 am

Just put them on a ship and send them to Australia

Signed
1787
 
JJJ
Posts: 2287
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:47 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
But UK gun violence rates are extremely low. So why are the criminals in the UK seemingly not able to get guns? Do they have them but choose not to use them? This seems to be at odds with the "banning guns only prevents law-abiding citizens from having them to protect themselves" philosophy.

Guns (especially handguns, shotguns are fare more common) are extremely uncommon. If you're carrying for protection, when you know your likely opponent won't have a gun you're much less likely to escalate unless you're planning to do something very serious (bank, gang violence, etc.).

That means that even the black market for guns is small and expensive which effectively puts guns out of reach of average thug. There are exceptions to this, of course, arms trade is rife within certain communities (gypsies, certain eastern european groups, etc.) but the mental block that using guns is VERY serious still works. Now, wait until some group decides it's ok to walk around with guns and you have a recipe for disaster.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 728
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:25 am



Quoting BCAL (Reply 36):
, particularly those from Eastern Europe and former Communist countries

In London it is nothing whatsoever to do with Eastern Europeans. A majority of those involved are Black. Most of them have also been born and raised here so it is a British problem.
 
metroliner
Posts: 847
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:35 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:37 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
it is a society issue, not the tool used

 checkmark 

There are too many factors to name a single one - however, if you yourself were a poor, disaffected youngster with little education, constant exposure to drugs, violence, crime, you probably would turn to a gang believing not only tha it would give you protection, but also some sort of social framework.

Gang mentality is a big factor.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 36):
Immigrants, particularly those from Eastern Europe and former Communist countries, think nothing about carrying knives on them in public. With a flood of immigrants in the UK came a flood of people walking about with knives, so the people who felt threatened also started arming themselves with knives either for self defence or, sadly, on the estates where there is a large immigrant population, to give them some status

Oh come off it, BCAL - it's so easy to name immigrants as the culprits, when the majority of this crime is perpetrated by Brits. The majority of knife crime occurs among young, poor Brits - no matter what 'race'.

As a legitimate Eastern European immigrant to the UK, I find that statement moderately insulting, though I am more used to seeing it in the tabloids than on airliners.net. However, I take your point that a scared public - an ignorant/deluded/prejudiced one - is more likely to take weapons to 'defend' itself.

Toni
Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:27 pm



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 40):
I find that statement moderately insulting

Metroliner no offence was intended and I apologise if you found my statement insulting. Of course many Eastern European immigrants are law abiding UK citizens but there remains a small sector who believe that it is their right to arm themselves with knives, like in their home countries. Their carrying knives has escalated the problem.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
metroliner
Posts: 847
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:35 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:25 pm



Quoting BCAL (Reply 41):
Metroliner no offence was intended and I apologise if you found my statement insulting.

Okay, none taken, apology accepted - no sense in being overly sensitive  Smile

Quoting BCAL (Reply 41):
many

"The vast majority of"?

Quoting BCAL (Reply 41):
a small sector who believe that it is their right to arm themselves with knives, like in their home countries. Their carrying knives has escalated the problem.

No doubt anyone arming themselves is escalating the problem - but you're missing the woods for the trees if you blame immigrants. Eastern Europeans in particular are unfairly judged here - Poles, Russians, those from the Blatic states - all come here to do work that Brits no longer want to do.

It's young people more than anyone who need to be shown that there is another way. As in the case of Ben Kinsella (who was murdered on York Way, some 300m from my flat), young people are taking to knives in a far more serious and irresponsible manner than those involved in organised crime. 'Happy slapping', phone camera murders, gangs prowling the streets - we Brits need to give young people something better to aspire to.

I had better stop before I turn into Jeremy Kyle...  Smile
Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 3):
For sure if guns were in circulation - the problem would be FAR worse.

It takes real effort to kill a bystander with a knife. Guns, not so much.

In a nation where criminals rarely have guns, police are much less likely to resort to lethal force (I would hope). In this way you get fewer "justified" killings of innocent people (Amadou Diallo, for example,) though such cases still occur in the UK (Jean Charles de Menezes).

If you take every gun crime and replace the guns with knives, you immediately eliminate the chance of innocent bystanders being killed. Unarmed people can also realistically defend themselves from knife-bearing criminals.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 37):
Just put them on a ship and send them to Australia

Which will in turn send them to Nauru.
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:25 pm

For most of these people they seem intent to replicate their genetic home country.

I don't think it is a surprise to know that gun and knife crime is particularly prevalent in Jamaica and other poorer nations on the planet.

Although we can't point fingers at any one culture for this latest fashion.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 43):
Quoting Bill142 (Reply 37):
Just put them on a ship and send them to Australia

Which will in turn send them to Nauru.

No we voted him out last year, the Nauru camp is closed, probably so is Nauru come to that.

I rather think that in spite of Ronnie Biggs, the stats are probably that in the past 20 years, Aus has sent more crims to the UK than vice versa.
 
MadameConcorde
Topic Author
Posts: 9218
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:32 pm

The Observer, Sunday July 20, 2008
Another stab death as police call for more search powers

London's increasing reputation as the stabbing capital of Europe was reinforced yesterday after a partygoer was murdered less than a mile from where 16-year-old Ben Kinsella died three weeks ago. The victim, named locally as Elliot Guy, the father of a newborn baby who, according to neighbours was in the capital to help decorate his mother's home, was the 55th person to die from knife wounds in London this year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/20/knifecrime.ukcrime
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
johns624
Posts: 1249
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:59 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 43):
Unarmed people can also realistically defend themselves from knife-bearing criminals

Would you like to explain how? The only realistic defense that I can think of is to run like hell and hope that you're faster than them.
 
egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:19 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 46):
London's increasing reputation as the stabbing capital of Europe was reinforced yesterday after a partygoer was murdered less than a mile from where 16-year-old Ben Kinsella died three weeks ago. The victim, named locally as Elliot Guy, the father of a newborn baby who, according to neighbours was in the capital to help decorate his mother's home, was the 55th person to die from knife wounds in London this year

Glasgow is Western Europe's capital actually it was on today's edition of the One Show on the BBC.
 
wingscrubber
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 1:38 am

RE: Why All These Knife Attacks In London?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:01 am

Too many idle over-aggressive youths, 'chavs' and the 'afro-brits' (playing on the 'african american term') are the main culprits.
They are arming themselves to feel tough and respected, and seek to prove themselves by bullying to the point of murder. Modern movie/music culture re-inforces the notion that you have to be tough and ruthless to be respected.
The cause is idleness, joblessness, and alcoholism I would suggest, the alcoholism probably caused by the latter two. The solution would be to engage said youths/young men, to 'disarm' them by chanelling their aggression/angst/desire to prove themselves into clubs or a profession or something otherwise productive.
National service would do wonders for this, I was an air cadet myself.. not quite the same thing but it kept me off the streets in my teens. Some indigenous industry might help too, what with Britain no longer having any real mass 'working class' industry, or at least, not in the urban centres anyway, the result is there's alot of bored unemployed young men on the streets causing trouble.
And finally, because schools now have such a soft touch, and can't use canes, kids of high school age grow up with zero respect for authority and run amok.

That's my observation anyhow... the UK has gone soft!
Resident TechOps Troll

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: blueflyer, buzzard302, Hillis, LittleFokker, Okie, PanHAM and 10 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos