Falcon84
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Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:28 pm

And, as I've said before, if the nation we occupy asks us to leave, we should do so with grace and honor.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/19/almaliki.obama/index.html

Your comments are welcome.
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jcs17
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:06 pm

Whatever. Obama certainly didn't back the surge, nor did the Democrats. If it were up to them, Iraq would've been left in shambles and in the beginning of a civil war. Obama is simply taking advantage of a continuously improving situation on the ground in Iraq thanks to the Bush administrations efforts, a leader in Maliki who sometimes isn't known for his good judgment, and a press that creams themselves with any sort of Obama strategic "victory."
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4holer
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:12 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Your comments are welcome.

One should attempt to use correct spelling in the title when starting a thread.

As for the point of the thread, JCS took one word to pretty much sum it up.
Yes, the topic of Iraq is relevent, but threads based on spin serve no point.
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misbeehavin
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:16 pm

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 1):
continuously improving situation on the ground in Iraq thanks to the Bush administrations efforts

Ha! Of course it's improving. But that's because the Bush administration was responsible for it getting so bad in the first place, that there was no where to go but up!

[Edited 2008-07-19 15:27:04]
 
Platypus
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:43 pm

More of the usual from our buddy Falcon84.

As already mentioned above, the only way our troops can leave Iraq, is by way of a safe and secure Iraq, which is the case now, because of our military, GW's determination and McCain's push for the Surge, which Obama was dead set against!!! If Obama had his way, would we have left Iraq with our tales between our legs, all the while he, the media and political hacks wink  blaming Bush for the failure!

From the article:

White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said al-Maliki had made it clear that such decisions will be based on continuing positive developments.

Sorry buddy, but your attempt to give credit to Obama, while denying our Military and GW, is nothing but smarmy spin! Face it Falcon84, the surge worked, Iraq is secure, and Obama had absolutely NOTHING to do with it!!!

Cheerio
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NIKV69
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:13 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 1):
Obama is simply taking advantage of a continuously improving situation on the ground in Iraq thanks to the Bush administrations efforts, a leader in Maliki who sometimes isn't known for his good judgment, and a press that creams themselves with any sort of Obama strategic "victory."

 checkmark 

Couldn't have said it better.
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Platypus
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:16 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
Quoting JCS17 (Reply 1):
Obama is simply taking advantage of a continuously improving situation on the ground in Iraq thanks to the Bush administrations efforts, a leader in Maliki who sometimes isn't known for his good judgment, and a press that creams themselves with any sort of Obama strategic "victory."



Couldn't have said it better.

Same here!
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RJdxer
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:24 pm



Quoting Platypus (Reply 4):
White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said al-Maliki had made it clear that such decisions will be based on continuing positive developments.

Which is what the administration has said all along as well. From the story...

"But a spokesman for al-Maliki said his remarks "were misunderstood, mistranslated and not conveyed accurately."

Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said the possibility of troop withdrawal was based on the continuance of security improvements, echoing statements that the White House made Friday after a meeting between al-Maliki and U.S. President Bush.
"

So if it can be done in 16 months so be it. The ground work has certainly been laid. I still think Sen. Obama will be singing a different tune when he gets back here. One that liberal democrats will not like to hear.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:27 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 1):
Whatever.

Typical from you Jcs. Had McCain said the same thing, you'd be slobbering all over him with praise.

Again, if the leader of Iraq says he wants our troops out, we should leave. No formal request has been made from Iraq, and certianly won't be till after the Inaguration, but, at that point, if al-Maliki says he wants out troops out in 18 months, it is incumbent on us to leave. If they request we stay, then I think we have to stay till Iraq is satisfied.

It is up to Iraq-not us-to decide the timing.

Quoting Platypus (Reply 4):
White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said al-Maliki had made it clear that such decisions will be based on continuing positive developments.

And I agree with that, but our take on what is positive and what their's is might be different, and in that case, we need to bow to their wishes, not ours.

And, Platypus, why do you type everything out in praise of Mr. Bush as if you're putting out an election press release?  Smile

I didn't expect a different response from you or Jcs, as you're like lemmings going out to sea to drown.  Yeah sure
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RJdxer
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:01 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
If they request we stay, then I think we have to stay till Iraq is satisfied.

Oh how the winds change.
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jcs17
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
If they request we stay, then I think we have to stay till Iraq is satisfied.

I think these are yours...
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 9):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
If they request we stay, then I think we have to stay till Iraq is satisfied.

Oh how the winds change.

I've said that all along. It is up to Baghdad, not Washington, on when we leave, RJ. I came out in favor of the surge, and it has worked to a great extent. That has been undeniable, and it's been a good thing for us, and for the Iraqi's.

But, again, it is not up to Washington when we pull out. That's just arrogance to dictate to the nation we invaded to turn down any request they make to leave.
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RJdxer
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
I've said that all along

I guess it's time to go qoute digging again.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
I came out in favor of the surge,

With a HUGE qualifer attached which basically disclaimed any support whatsoever. That's been your modis operendi all along. As I've stated before, you hedge your bets so much that there is no way you can win or lose. You are the perfect fair weather fan when it comes to support. Oh well, time to start mining.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:30 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
I came out in favor of the surge,

With a HUGE qualifer attached which basically disclaimed any support whatsoever.

Your opinion. I stated we needed to do it to salvage the situation in Iraq. That we owed a debt of honor to our troops and the Iraqi people to make the best of a bad situation. And, to the credit of General Peatrus and President Bush, it did have positive effects.

Can I make that any more clear for you?
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AirStairs
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:00 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Again, if the leader of Iraq says he wants our troops out, we should leave.

Since when is Iraq's PM the commander of our military?



AirStairs
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:21 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 14):
Since when is Iraq's PM the commander of our military?

Since when is the President of the Untied States the head of the Iraqi goverment! If their goverment tells us to leave, we damn well better leave, unless you REALLY want to get out soldiers killed.

What kind of arrogant presumtion tells you we have the right to dictate to a soverign nation? It's THEIR NATION, not ours, and if we truly think they're soverign, we don't tell them "no" when we are asked to pack our bags.

That kind of imperialistic thinking is going to get more American soldiers killed. What absolute arrogance on your part.
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AirStairs
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:42 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
What kind of arrogant presumtion tells you we have the right to dictate to a soverign nation? It's THEIR NATION, not ours, and if we truly think they're soverign, we don't tell them "no" when we are asked to pack our bags.

Not dictate; but, carry out a mission to completion: yes. The United States plays no part in their legislative or parliamentary system and is not and could not "dictate" anything to Iraqis. They are sovereign, yes, and their government acts as such, but I would not go so far as to say independent yet.



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eelonghorn
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:09 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And, as I've said before, if the nation we occupy asks us to leave, we should do so with grace and honor.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/19/almaliki.obama/index.html

Your comments are welcome.

No surpirise to me, you should have waited for the dust to settle. Now, like Obama, CNN has had to flip flop. Does the link posted read as orginaly posted? Of course not. CNN CYA.
 
Platypus
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:03 pm



Quoting EELonghorn (Reply 17):
No surpirise to me, you should have waited for the dust to settle. Now, like Obama, CNN has had to flip flop. Does the link posted read as orginaly posted? Of course not. CNN CYA.

 laughing 

The Falconator, was not only drinking the KoolAid, but making it too!!!

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Cheerio
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:21 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 16):
Not dictate; but, carry out a mission to completion: yes.

If the leader of Iraq tells us the mission is over, IT'S OVER. End of story.

Now, again, you want to realy make us an enemy in Iraq? Then we should do what you suggest when that happens and tell him "Sorry, Charlie, but our mission isn't over. We're staying". That'll go over like a lead balloon.

When Iraq says it's over, we leave.
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Platypus
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:56 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
Quoting AirStairs (Reply 16):
Not dictate; but, carry out a mission to completion: yes.

If the leader of Iraq tells us the mission is over, IT'S OVER. End of story.

Now, again, you want to realy make us an enemy in Iraq? Then we should do what you suggest when that happens and tell him "Sorry, Charlie, but our mission isn't over. We're staying". That'll go over like a lead balloon.

When Iraq says it's over, we leave.

You're spinning it here buddy! And, ignoring what al-Maliki stated in the article you posted. No one is saying we will stay in Iraq against al-Maliki wishes. The consensus between Bush and al-Maliki is:

Conditions in Iraq would dictate the pace of the negotiations and not "an arbitrary date for withdrawal."

The reason why talks of withdrawing from Iraq can be discussed at this time, is because of the continued security on the ground, warrant such discussions, not because of Obama.Obama has no bearing on this matter. He's irrelevant! Despite what CNN, the Obama camp and you say!!! It's total BS!!! But, nice try buddy.  wink 

Cheerio


edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/19/almaliki.obama/index.html - 59k - 15 hours ago -

Iraqi PM disputes report on withdrawal plan

But a spokesman for al-Maliki said his remarks "were misunderstood, mistranslated and not conveyed accurately."

Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said the possibility of troop withdrawal was based on the continuance of security improvements, echoing statements that the White House made Friday after a meeting between al-Maliki and U.S. President Bush.
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AirCop
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:08 pm

Just a question; if the surge was such a success, why does the United States still have 20,000 more troops in Iraq, than prior to the surge?
 
Platypus
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:46 pm



Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
Just a question; if the surge was such a success, why does the United States still have 20,000 more troops in Iraq, than prior to the surge?

To maintain the level of security, the surge garnered! The US will stand down, when the Iraqis stand up! Which has been the plan from day one, and that day is not too far off because of the surge. If we did as many democrats, Iraq would be in chaos, and all US efforts would have been for nothing! The US's goal for a secure Iraq has happened! Sorry such news is so difficult for you celebrate.


Way to go US military!
What they have accomplisihed in the most unstable and complicated part of the world is extraordinary!

You guys Rock!  bigthumbsup 

Cheerio
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RJdxer
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Can I make that any more clear for you?

I think you already have. Just a small sampling of your flip flopping and qualifying statements over the past year and a half. I'd go back and get your statements before the invasion started but I believe you were operating under another screen name then and changed it after you so badly predicted the outcome of the 2004 elections? Regardless, it's clear you write to be able to distance yourself from your own comments.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ums/non_aviation/read.main/1594146

I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Reply 56

Liberate them? We've enslaved them in a near Civil War! They're not liberated. They live in just as much fear now than many did under Saddam. We've helped replace one evil with another.

We took down a dicatior, and replaced him with chaos, death and destruction.

Democracy? We haven't left "democracy" there. Elections held under the watchful eye of an occupying force isn't democracy. You cannot plant democracy somewhere where they never had it, and really don't want it. There is no democracy in Iraq. There is chaos. There is warfare. There is a nation on the verge of Civil War. That isn't democracy. That's the furthest thing from it.

Again, the point of this thread is to blame others, once again, for the shortcomings of President Bush, and the military and civilian leaders working for him, who have failed our troops, and failed our nation.




At least you remembered to call him President Bush.





http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...id=1491670&searchid=1492078&s=iraq

Here's The First Cut In The Iraq War
Reply 18

We're not talking about withhoding funds from troops already in the field, but troops who's presence may be dubious, at best, in improving the situation at hand in the field. It may be too little, too late, to send more troops. That should have been done on March 19, 2003.



I cannot recall a more stirring endorsement of a policy that I've read in a long long time.



http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...id=1492330&searchid=1493529&s=iraq

Throwing Tepid Support To Mr. Bush's Iraq Strategy


OP
I do not know if it will work-I am skeptical, that, at this late date, almost 4 years after we invaded Iraq, that it may be "too little, too late", but, for the sake of the Iraqi people, the region-and for our nation, I see no other choice but to go forward


That is called a "qualifier" and it's a huge one. After hearing that your support is the last thing I would count on as a leader in any field. If we were in battle I'd be keeping an extra eye on you because I would expect you to turn tail and run.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
Just a question; if the surge was such a success, why does the United States still have 20,000 more troops in Iraq, than prior to the surge?

This story should answer that question. Half way down.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...pentagon-troops-iraaq_N.htm?csp=34

BTW the JCOS chairmen agreed with the President and Iraqi Prime Minister on not setting any hard time table for withdrawl. If Sen. Obama is elected expect him to be fired shortly after for having the audacity to think of anything other than an immediate phased withdrawl with a hard date set for the last of the troops to leave Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/mullen_two_wars
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AirCop
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
BTW the JCOS chairmen agreed with the President and Iraqi Prime Minister on not setting any hard time table for withdrawl. If Sen. Obama is elected expect him to be fired shortly after for having the audacity to think of anything other than an immediate phased withdrawl with a hard date set for the last of the troops to leave Iraq.

Didn't every General/Admiral that voiced concerns about the handling of the conflicts in the middle east get fired by the current administration? So what would the difference be?
 
AirStairs
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:15 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
If the leader of Iraq tells us the mission is over, IT'S OVER. End of story.

I understand that what you are saying is the ideal, but it is simply not the case. I am 110% for the President and PM to come to a consensus, and I think they will. There is no reason not to. But a president's job is to always look out for #1, and ensure that his mission gets completed.

That a President Obama would take orders from Nouri al-Maliki (and likely others) is more than a little frightening.



AirStairs
 
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:34 pm

Al-Maliki said his remarks did not indicate that he was endorsing Obama over presumptive Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain.

Here is the title of the article in case you missed it - Iraqi PM disputes report on withdrawal plan.






 Yeah sure
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:43 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 25):
I understand that what you are saying is the ideal, but it is simply not the case. I am 110% for the President and PM to come to a consensus, and I think they will. There is no reason not to. But a president's job is to always look out for #1, and ensure that his mission gets completed.

Again, that's simply American arrogance to think we have any right to tell a soverign nation, who WE INVADED, that when they tell us to leave, that we decline! What kind of imbicilic mindset is that? All it will do is make us look even more like a bully, and will get American soldiers killed.

If any nation wanted our troops out-be it Germany, Japan, Britian-it doesn't matter-then we owe them the courtesy, as a soverign nation, in charge of their own future, to do so. Iraq is no exception. Again, it's pure arrogance to even imply that we'd tell a nation that WE HAVE OCCUPIED, for 5 years now, that, sorry, your request for us to leave, is denied.

We'll be fighting every man, woman and child in Iraq, and they WILL then, again, be a sworn enemy of the United States. Just a perfect scenario to push Iran and Iraq into allies against the U.S.

Simply incredible arrogance on your part.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 25):
a President Obama would take orders from Nouri al-Maliki (and likely others) is more than a little frightening.

Again, al-Maliki is the LEADER OF A SOVERIGN NATION. Isn't one of the reason those who support this war are in support of it, is because we would have a free, soverign Iraq? And then, now, you deny them that very soverignty by saying that when they tell us they no longer require our services, TO SAY NO? Good God. Unbelievable.

What really would be frightening for this nation and others, is for a President of the United States to deny the soverignty of that nation by such a dumbass move. And that's what it would be-a dumbass move.
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Platypus
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:13 pm

-Falconator

It is total arrogance, more the point ignorance, for one to believe that Al-Maliki would want the US to leave prematurely, because if we did, he'd be toast! He's a lot smarter than that. There's a delicate balancing act he must present to his people, he has a responsibility to their welfare, yet, he must also, to an extent pander to them and say, the US must leave someday, so to avoid being overthrown, which would be disastrous for the nation as a whole. Furthermore, the US is NOT forcing Al-Maliki or the Iraqi government on the US's continued presence in Iraq. That's just more spin from you my friend!

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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:19 pm

Quoting FXramper (Reply 26):
Al-Maliki said his remarks did not indicate that he was endorsing Obama over presumptive Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain.

Dick Cheney must have been pointing his hunting rifle at Maliki's head. He's a good shot you know...not at ducks but at people.

[Edited 2008-07-20 14:26:38]
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STT757
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:43 pm



Quote:
Confident Iraq rides U.S. political tides
Iraq's al-Maliki seems to back Obama's withdrawal plan but more at stake
t
AMMAN, Jordan - Confusion over the Iraqi prime minister's seeming endorsement of Barack Obama's troop withdrawal plan is part of Baghdad's strategy to play U.S. politics for the best deal possible over America's military mission.

The goal is not necessarily to push out the Americans quickly, but instead give Iraqis a major voice in how long U.S. troops stay and what they will do while still there.

It also is designed to refurbish the nationalist credentials of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who owes his political survival to the steadfast support of President Bush. Now, an increasingly confident Iraqi government seems to be undermining long-standing White House policies on Iraq.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25769311/

Quote:
But that is precisely what the Iraqis intended to do: exploit Obama's position on the war to force the Bush administration into accepting concessions considered unthinkable a few months ago.

Already, the Iraqi strategy has succeeded in persuading the White House to agree to a "general time horizon" for removing U.S. troops --- long a goal of the Shiite-dominated Iraqi government.

According to senior Iraqi officials, the decision to play U.S. politics emerged last month after Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari's trip to Washington for meetings with Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Obama and Sen. John McCain, the likely Republican presidential nominee.

The visit took place as the U.S. and Iraq were negotiating rules that would govern the American military presence in Iraq once the U.N. mandate expires at the end of the year.

The talks had bogged down over U.S. demands for extensive basing rights, control of Iraqi airspace and immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law for U.S. soldiers and private contractors.



Quote:
'Let's squeeze them'
With the talks bogged down, the Iraqis sensed desperation by the Americans to wrap up a deal quickly before the presidential campaign was in full swing.

"Let's squeeze them," al-Maliki told his advisers, who related the conversation to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

It's obvious that the Iraqi's see the Bush Administration as desperate to solidify some kind of agreement that secures the Bush policy with regards to Iraq for the future, the Bush Administration is being played and should stand firm to the Iraqis. If I were the Bush Administration I would bring both McCain and Obama to the negotiating table with the Iraqi's.

I'm all for pulling most of our combat brigades out of the Cities (slowly, so as to not reverse the success of the surge), however I do favor some permanent US bases in Iraq. I know that's a hot wire issue, but I feel for the blood and treasure the US has spent in Iraq the least the Iraqis could agree to would be for the US to maintain a military presence in the country. Away from the Cities, out of sight of most of the Iraqi population. However significant enough for training, counter terrorism strikes, and to prevent the total subversion of Iraq by Iran.

Not 160,000 troops, perhaps something in the range of 50,000-60,000 troops based at major airfields/bases away from the major Iraqi cities. Two Army Divisions (Eight Brigades), or about half or a little more than half of the current Army Brigade Combat Teams in Iraq. As well as two Marine Regimental Combat Teams, and a Marine Expeditionary force.

The four main operating bases the Iraqis should definately allow the US to keep;

Al Asad Air Base:
This is an incredibly massive airbase way out in the Western Iraqi desert, way out of sight from most of the population. It's large enough that US troops based there can conduct training operations totally within the perimeter or the surrounding desert without disturbing a single Iraqi, the closest village is some 20 miles across the desert. This base is currently a major Marine base, with an Air Wing and Regimental Combat team.

Camp Taqaddum/ Airbase:
This is another airbase in Western Iraq, not as large as Al Asad but it has the strategic value of again not being surrounded by an urban enviroment. The base is pretty much away from local population, however it's directly in the middle of Ramadi and Fulujah. A good base to keep, it's about 45 miles West of Baghdad.

Camp Taji:

Huge sprawling base with an airfield, 12 miles North of Baghdad. Former home of the Republican Guard, also Iraq's main armored maintenance facility. Great place to train Iraqi soldiers.

Joint Base Balad:
Another huge airfield currently the main logistical base, Air Force Expeditionary Wing.

Other bases;

Camp Speicher
Another large airfield, way away from local population. Near the city of Tikrit.

Baghdad International Airport/ Camp Victory/ Camp Liberty/ Camp Striker, Camp Slayer

Basically large base surrounding the airport, on the outskirts of Baghdad. Keep on eye on things.

Tallil Air Base

Kirkuk
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AirStairs
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:46 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Again, that's simply American arrogance to think we have any right to tell a soverign nation, who WE INVADED, that when they tell us to leave, that we decline! What kind of imbicilic mindset is that? All it will do is make us look even more like a bully, and will get American soldiers killed.

They haven't told us to leave. It makes no sense that they would at this point or any time in the near future and there is no indication that the moment that the Iraqi government wants US troops out won't be the moment that the US is pulling them out already.

But, you are right, "we" (our military)invaded, and are now in the position to determine what constitutes the appropriate time to leave. There is no reason to believe that the United States' military and the Iraqi government will have a different opinion on the issue.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
If any nation wanted our troops out-be it Germany, Japan, Britian-it doesn't matter-then we owe them the courtesy, as a soverign nation, in charge of their own future, to do so. Iraq is no exception. Again, it's pure arrogance to even imply that we'd tell a nation that WE HAVE OCCUPIED, for 5 years now, that, sorry, your request for us to leave, is denied.

Not quite. You see, Germany, Britain and several other countries have binding treaties signed with the United States that allows US bases to exist there. They agreed to it, and can decide otherwise if and when the agreements are up for renewal. Japan does not have a choice;

Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution: "Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes". To this end the article provides that "land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained".

As such the United States is responsible for Japanese defense.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Again, al-Maliki is the LEADER OF A SOVERIGN NATION. Isn't one of the reason those who support this war are in support of it, is because we would have a free, soverign Iraq?

Yes but as the occupying party, we have the ability to determine whether or not the occupied has met the standards of a free, independent, and sovereign country and concurrently have the responsibility to ensure that early withdrawl would not compromise American interests anywhere.



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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:57 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 30):
If I were the Bush Administration I would bring both McCain and Obama to the negotiating table with the Iraqi's.

That might be an interesting idea, but it won't happen. And reading the rest of what you put in is intriguing, and it could be the reality of the situation. Putting pressure on the Bush Administration, by openly saying they accept the basic premise of what Obama is saying is a shrewd move on their part. And you can't blame them for trying to get the best deal they can.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 31):
They haven't told us to leave

Understood. But my point was that if they do, we owe it to them, and all those Americans who have died on this mission, to leave when asked, and wish Iraq the best. That is simply the best way to do it. If we don't do it that way, we look like bullies.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 31):
It makes no sense that they would at this point or any time in the near future and there is no indication that the moment that the Iraqi government wants US troops out won't be the moment that the US is pulling them out already.

Again, I understand that, but that's not the point. The point is when the time comes, when they say leave, we do so in an honorable fashion.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 31):
Not quite. You see, Germany, Britain and several other countries have binding treaties signed with the United States that allows US bases to exist there.

Again, you're missing the point. Binding treaties or not, if they asked us to leave their soil, as a soverign nation, they would have that right, and we should do the honorable thing and leave. After all, we had treaties with the Philippines, and they voted that our bases should close. And we left, and didn't begrudge them their wishes. We should do the same in Iraq when the times comes-whether we agree with the timing or not. We cannot dictate to them, when we leave their country. That's just wrong.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 31):
Yes but as the occupying party, we have the ability to determine whether or not the occupied has met the standards of a free, independent, and sovereign country and concurrently have the responsibility to ensure that early withdrawl would not compromise American interests anywhere.

Wrong. It is SOLELY UP TO THEM. It's their nation, not ours. Unless we want to look like an old-time imperilistic nation-which, despite the naive beliefs of some around the world and on this board to the contrary, we really are not-then we leave when asked. It isn't up to us to decide the timing. It is up to Iraq, as a soverign, indepenent nation.
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:15 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 24):
So what would the difference be?

But I thought Sen. Obama was about change?
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:20 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 31):
Japan does not have a choice;

Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution: "Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes". To this end the article provides that "land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained".

As such the United States is responsible for Japanese defense.

Yet the Japanese foot most of the bill. You're wrong on this point sir - although it's a difficult process that an inept political organization like the Japanese government is woe to attempt - Constitutional amendment does provide Japan a choice. Should this government choose to renounce or amend Article 9, then the parameters you have outlined will no longer apply.
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:32 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Binding treaties or not, if they asked us to leave their soil, as a soverign nation, they would have that right, and we should do the honorable thing and leave.

A binding treaty would relinquish their right to do so as a matter of contractual obligation for that given period of time, or shoulder the penalty for an early termination. I am not talking about the waffly "shoulds" here I am talking about the reality of a binding treaty in writing between two nations.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Wrong. It is SOLELY UP TO THEM. It's their nation, not ours. Unless we want to look like an old-time imperilistic nation-which, despite the naive beliefs of some around the world and on this board to the contrary, we really are not-then we leave when asked.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
If we don't do it that way, we look like bullies.

Why all this worry about what we might look like? When tooth comes to nail do you really want some consensualist/apologist trying to easy the qualms of every small faction on earth? Harmony and diplomacy are always preferable and rarely unrealistic. But when the shit hits the fan I want someone who puts my safety much higher on the totem pole than what some fickle, effete population on another continent with nothing at stake thinks of him.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 34):
Yet the Japanese foot most of the bill. You're wrong on this point sir - although it's a difficult process that an inept political organization like the Japanese government is woe to attempt - Constitutional amendment does provide Japan a choice. Should this government choose to renounce or amend Article 9, then the parameters you have outlined will no longer apply.

I am admittedly not a Japanese Constitutional scholar, I only really follow the BoJ and maybe Mr Fukuda. Is there a scenario in which a repeal of Article 9 would represent a sensible or advantageous course of action? Only for my own curiosity.



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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:29 am

Maliki Spokesman Looks Forward to Withdrawal by 2010. Hmmm...  scratchchin 

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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:52 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 35):
Is there a scenario in which a repeal of Article 9 would represent a sensible or advantageous course of action? Only for my own curiosity.

Haha, that's a matter of considerable debate. Japanese right-wingers invariably are of the position that Japan already spends a lot on defense and self-responsibility wouldn't cost that much more - they also see military expansion as a good source of stable employment in an economy that is looking weak in the long term. And of course there's been talk since the 80s that relying on America for defense is both foolhardy and embarassing and it's long past time for Japan to use her own money and manpower to defend herself.

Fundamentally they are difficult arguments to stand against but given the difficulty of any kind of status quo change in this country, it's all still rather unlikely. Every little carrot the US throws out, like returning airspace rights to Japanese control or relocating bases that local populations don't like, seems to quell this kind of talk for awhile.
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:48 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 14):
Since when is Iraq's PM the commander of our military?

He's the head of state of Iraq, and our UN mandate to be in Iraq is about to expire. Without that or another agreement between the US and Iraq in place, he has every right to tell us to remove our troops.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 25):
That a President Obama would take orders from Nouri al-Maliki (and likely others) is more than a little frightening.

National sovereignty can be a bitch sometimes.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 31):
There is no reason to believe that the United States' military and the Iraqi government will have a different opinion on the issue.

There have been differing opinions on the issue of keeping the troops in Iraq. Iraq has already rejected a proposed SOFA on the grounds that its conditions were not acceptable.

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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:35 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
Just a question; if the surge was such a success, why does the United States still have 20,000 more troops in Iraq, than prior to the surge?

I'm glad someone is just as confused about the puppet show as I am.
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:51 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
Just a question; if the surge was such a success, why does the United States still have 20,000 more troops in Iraq, than prior to the surge?

Exactly. But they have done a good job of spinning it as a success. God help anyone who disagrees with that belief.
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting TUNisia (Reply 39):

I'm glad someone is just as confused about the puppet show as I am.

I'm not at all confused - this nonsense is plain as day. Notice how quiet the State Department has been about Maliki's numerous buddy-chats with Iran even as the latter has refused to back down from nuclear enrichment activities. Now they are too eager to applaud him for even having any kind of proposal to put forth.
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RE: Iraqi Pm Backs Sen. Obama's Plan For Withdrawl

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting JM017 (Reply 40):
But they have done a good job of spinning it as a success. God help anyone who disagrees with that belief.

I heard somewhere a deal was struck just as the "surge" was taking effect, that the United States made deals with the insurgent groups to have the insurgents lower the fighting. I just heard that yesterday, so I need to follow up on it.
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