wardialer
Posts: 1140
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:44 am

Hi everyone,

It seems no good news in regards to the US economy and it will get worse says analysts.

In my opinion, and please, correct me if Im wrong, that Europe will be the super-power (along with Asia) of the world. By this saying, is that since the EURO is getting stronger in currency, it means that European countries will have the best economy power than the US.

For example, in Hungary, the economy is the best and its booming like crazy because the Forint currency, is the stongest in history....Hence....even Hungary and all of Eastern Europe is doing far well better than the USA.

So I think there will be no fix to the sinking economy in the US....and thats because of outsourcing....

Thats why the US has a few corporations thats on their soil but 80% of those companies are outsourced...
 
eelonghorn
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:18 am

What is wrong with outsourcing?
 
planewasted
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:06 pm

US economy is maybe going down, but why should that mean that it is impossible to recover?
Change some habits and strategies and it will become better. The population is well educated and americans arn't more stupid that anyone else.
But don't sit on your hands doing nothing thinking the problems will be solved by themselves.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:09 pm

I really don't consider the U.S to be a sinking ship.

Many things are cyclical in this world, and this is no different.

Things are tough right now in many aspects but that does not mean things will stay that way for the long term.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
that Europe will be the super-power (along with Asia) of the world.

Europe has a looooong way to go to achieve any kind of coherent and unified governing body that will allow it to have the diplomatic and economic influence on the world the US has.
Progress has been tremendous, but it's still no more than a bunch of very different countries that have facilitated exchange of goods and people amongst themselves, helped by a common currency.

Asia is also quite the motley crew of states which are far from speaking from a single voice, and are all still very much influenced, economically, by other countries, although their economies are booming.

A strong economy and currency is not the only criteria considered in the definition of a 'super-power'. The US is here to stay, and hopefully the next administration can do its bit to curve the failing finances.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Falcon84
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting EELonghorn (Reply 1):
What is wrong with outsourcing?

If it ever happens to you, pal, then come back and answer that question.

The fact you even ask that question makes me want to throw up. I guess, to you, there's nothing wrong wth taking good paying American jobs, with good benefits, and giving them to another nation, forcing your own countrymen to then look for jobs that don't pay nearly as wel,and with less benefits.

If you call that progress, then I pity you. That kind of attitude, imho, is as anti-American as one can get.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Derico
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:27 pm

Not a sinking ship, but one that has been 'on tour' without repairs for way too long.

The United States is a complete fiscal mess, with very poor fiscal and monetary decision at the moment, perhaps the poorest in 90 years. For example, two weeks ago it was informed that the US military would reactivate a fleet of warships to patrol the South Atlantic...

Usually, that would have prompted a massive outcry and criticism by South American nations, but this time the reaction was extremely muted, even from Venezuela (current US nemesis in SA), and Argentina, which has always been lukewarm to the United States. Even Brazil with it's aspirations of regional superpower didn't make much of it. Why?

Because deep inside the halls of power in those countries, they KNOW the US is in no shape to be parading ships that consume millions of barrels of oil, and cost billions of dollars, indefinately when there is no reason to do so in the South Atlantic Ocean... specially with major presidential elections coming up. So why is Bush doing this now? He gave no explanations. Then again, South American countries didn't really demand much of one as they usually would have.

The thinking is: if the US wants to spend even more oil and treasure on a pointless ''I'm still a superpower'' shoutout, and blow even more holes in it's budget and economy, go right ahead. "We" already know you are still a military superpower.

What we do know is that such pointless spending is an example of things that costing the United States TERRIBLY at home in crumbling infraestructure, and in the future of US children.

What the US is doing right now is suicide: they are buying incredibly expensive oil from the Middle East, expensive commodities from Asia and Latin America, imported fashion from Europe and electronics from Japan with a 50% devalued US dollar.

This trade imbalance fills up the vaults of all these nations with billions in currency reserves... almost all of whom then TURN AROUND and purchase an increasing float of US debt that country needs to sustain it's bloated budget. So in essence, American consumers are to some extent financing out of their own pockets the increase in their foreign debt which is being bought by foreign savings.

Putting money (or credit card debt) towards increasing your own nation's debt is not exactly the smartest economic policy. Bottom line the US has a lot of problems, that are very fixable, but I think they lack political will as well as social will to make changes. They are not unique in this though, most nations have change forced upon them when things become unsustainable.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
ltbewr
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:37 pm

There is no doubt that the good ship USA has taken on a lot of water and may floundering a bit, but it is far from sinking. That 'sinking' can be avoided if it's citizens make good decisions from consumer choices to leadership.
All of us in the USA must face certain realities. We must all start to live simpler lives within our means. No more big, fuel guzzling vehicles. Much smaller houses. Reduce personal debt. Be less greedy as to wanting money and stuff. Save to buy something rather than use easy credit. Not try to 'keep up with the Jones'. We also need to make more healthy choices in our consumption of food, reducing our excesses there with it's waste and health care impact.
We must challenge our leaders to make tough decisions and live with them including as to oil/energy use, to accept higher taxes to pay for our debts, to put in sound regulations to reduce future risks. Improve our schools systems. Make college affordable without huge debt. We must have a total revamping our our health care systems so no one is unable to get care due to the costs and is affordable for all.
We must stop the exporting of jobs and industry and indeed return some of it.
We must also end our war in Iraq - we can't afford it, they don't want us (at least our military forces) there anyway and it just reinforces more expensive hate against the USA. We also must back down as to threats against Iran and take our fight against al-Quada in Afghanistan.

We went through a similar crises in the 1970's - and we survived. We can get through this and be a stronger country in a different and better way.
 
Duff44
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:48 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
to accept higher taxes to pay for our debts

I agree with everything you said except that. If our government was 100% lean and still couldn't meet all of the obligations it needed to, then you would have a point. But when we do not actively close tax-haven loopholes and outright waste spending on earmarked projects, a tax increase is counterproductive.

But trusting Congress with money is like trusting a child molester to watch your kids... you won't see any improvement until it personally affects them, and since they're all rich it won't.
I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
 
Thorben
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:24 pm

The US has a lot of problems.

-Large fiscal deficit
-Large trade deficit
-Old infrastructure
-Many private households in deep debt
-One percent of the population in prison
-Large gap between rich and poor
-Large parts of the world are angry at the US and its Hippocratic foreign policy

to name a few. If I was nasty, I'd say they should rather elect an insolvency administrator than a president. The hole is deep, has been dug by wrong way of acting in a lot of years, it will take a long time to come out of it.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
SlamClick
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:47 pm



Quoting EELonghorn (Reply 1):
What is wrong with outsourcing?

Nothing. We should outsource our government today, this very hour. We could probably hire a Senate and House in Guatemala for about the salary of a single Senator. They could not possibly do a worse job and we could actually fire them (unlike the ones we have now) if they didn't do their job well.

As for outsourcing private sector concerns. It makes life better only for the real owners of corporations. Those of us who own "common stock" in those corporations might see a little gain, but we are mostly a buffer between the fat cats and any consequences from increasing unemployment.

The next bad thing about outsourcing is that the product SUCKS and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it other than buy a competing, equally sucky outsourced product. I've spent days and days shopping for an alternative to Chinese crap product and concluded that no such thing is available. In some cases I would cheerfully pay ten times the retail price to find such a thing. I have a machine shop building me a tripod right now because every store in town carries only Chinese crap. My tripod is going to cost more than $300 instead of the $15 or so for a Chinese POS but the latter will wobble.

That's what is wrong with outsourcing.

Original question:

Globalization. The dollar is probably being deliberately driven down right now by ecoterrorists having nothing to do with radical religion. Billionaires in other countries want to own some of our assets and are finding them a bargain.

One day we will do what a hundred other nations have done to us and to our citizens. We will just "nationalize" their investments right out from under them and the playing field will be more or less level again.

Some of you may consider me a rightie because you are so blinded by partisan politics or don't read my posts carefully but I've lost friends from the right by maintaining that capitalism is as evil as communism. It just works slightly better and I can't think of a better -ism. Business school brainwashees snicker and toss out buzzword-grenades but the most important thing a corporation can produce is jobs. The product is just an excuse. The jobs create the market, dummies! Henry Ford understood that and changed the world. He knew that people just like his employees were the market.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Klaus
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:23 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
-Large parts of the world are angry at the US and its Hippocratic foreign policy

The word is hypocritical.

The hippocratic oath is taken by medical doctors.
 
planewasted
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
As for outsourcing private sector concerns. It makes life better only for the real owners of corporations.

I don't agree. A country should do what it is good at compared to other countries. A company using outsourcing will have an advantage over a non-outsouring one, IF it is done right. I think the US companies would find it very hard to compete with European and Asian companies if they were not allowed to outsource. Then there would not be any American companies at all after a while...
 
NoUFO
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:33 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
I have a machine shop building me a tripod right now because every store in town carries only Chinese crap.

Ask your local retailer to stock up on Cullmann tripods.

Amazon.com sells some of them, too.
I support the right to arm bears
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:36 pm

We've been a sinking ship since 1776. Someone call me when it's time to board the life rafts.
 
Cadet57
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
We've been a sinking ship since 1776. Someone call me when it's time to board the life rafts.

Thats a funny joke!  sarcastic 

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):

Or Gitzo. Im pretty sure those arent chinese made.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
SlamClick
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:02 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Ask your local retailer to stock up on Cullmann tripods.

I can see at a glance that those, no matter where they are made, are too spindly to be stable with my long lens.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
Or Gitzo. Im pretty sure those arent chinese made.

Unfortunately for them I can have one scratch-built cheaper. So much for the economy argument for outsourcing. I can have a one-off built from raw materials by a local business owner for less money than I can buy their manufactured product.

Outsourcing apparently only has merit where the customer base can be conditioned to accept total garbage as a product.

Quoting PlaneWasted (Reply 12):
think the US companies would find it very hard to compete with European and Asian companies if they were not allowed to outsource. Then there would not be any American companies at all after a while...

That is an illusion caused by the utterly contrived international markets. I sometimes wonder who is paying our Congressional salaries because they certainly don't serve us. In almost any commodity you can name the US pays more tariffs to other countries than they pay to us for what they ship. Same with user fees like port charges or airport landing fees. Australia, just for one example used to charge us about ten times what we charged them for the same event - a 747 operation. If all tariffs were, by international treaty 100% reciprocal you'd see a world you wouldn't even recognize and the only reason it is the way it is now is because the thousand or so wealthiest people are non-nationals. They can move their fortunes around in ways unavailable to you and me.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
AirStairs
Posts: 390
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:59 pm

The title of this thread seems a little dramatic to me.

Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
In my opinion, and please, correct me if Im wrong, that Europe will be the super-power (along with Asia) of the world. By this saying, is that since the EURO is getting stronger in currency, it means that European countries will have the best economy power than the US.

With all due respect, you are wrong. It is some myth that congressmen would have you believe that China and India are swallowing up the world's money and energy and the US dollar will fall into oblivion. China and India's demand is quickly picking up pace, but the education of their workforces is still pitiful by western standards. The burgeoning Chinese and Indian middle classes that we continue to hear about threatening our oil security and weakening the dollar, make about the equivalent of $9 a day.

The Euro zone is strong but suffers from much of what the US does. The Euro is overvalued at estimates of around 30%, while analysts see the dollar undervalued. Yes, analysts are not and should not be unequivocally trusted. But per company research (proprietary so I won't name it), currencies will only correct about 12% per year, much slower than, say, an equity. Tighter monetary controls and market correction over time with put the dollar and euro in closer concert.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
Europe has a looooong way to go to achieve any kind of coherent and unified governing body that will allow it to have the diplomatic and economic influence on the world the US has.

 checkmark 

Aside from economic power, in which the aggregate Eurozone comes close to rivaling the US (but certainly does not operate as coherently), much more factors in to a status as world superpower, including (disappointingly or not) military clout that most of Europe does not have and seems unwilling to put forth (that is their prerogative).

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
If it ever happens to you, pal, then come back and answer that question.

The fact you even ask that question makes me want to throw up. I guess, to you, there's nothing wrong wth taking good paying American jobs, with good benefits, and giving them to another nation, forcing your own countrymen to then look for jobs that don't pay nearly as wel,and with less benefits.

If you call that progress, then I pity you. That kind of attitude, imho, is as anti-American as one can get.

It is painful progress, but a system that (if ironically) duly increases our standard of living with one hand as it takes our jobs with the other. I would not wish on anyone that their job be lost, whether it was handed to a foreign national or not. The reality is that a free market will seek the lowest costs of input possible in order to lower prices, garner market share, and maximize return. If you put a damper on this, you hinder economic growth across the board.

American industry is shrinking but still exists. It would be of more benefit it ourselves were we to insure that a huge variety of education disciplines were available to citizens of all means, as training a competitive workforce is the only real way out of the slump.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
-Large fiscal deficit
-Large trade deficit
-Old infrastructure
-Many private households in deep debt
-One percent of the population in prison
-Large gap between rich and poor
-Large parts of the world are angry at the US and its Hippocratic foreign policy

These are issues that most if not all countries are facing in some way or another, consumer debt being one that the US is particularly stung with. A weak dollar should help the trade deficit in the medium term. I can't agree on your point of infrastructure, though: it is not perfect but extremely reliable. There is not trash lining the streets like in Napoli and civic employee strikes are almost unheard of, in contrast to those in France and the like.


The media is in the business of sensationalising and speculating. I take this with a huge chunk of salt.




AirStairs
 
Thorben
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:25 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 17):
These are issues that most if not all countries are facing in some way or another, consumer debt being one that the US is particularly stung with.

Few countries do have extreme household deficits and trade balance deficits at the same time. Germany, China, Russia, Japan don't.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 17):
I can't agree on your point of infrastructure, though: it is not perfect but extremely reliable.

Old aircraft, old cars, many bridges unstable (crash in MSP), electricity system from the 1930ss (blackout couple of years ago).
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
SlamClick
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:26 pm

Well, in the two hours since my previous post about outsourcing, I did some laundry and ironing. I checked the label on a new shirt and got this:

VanHeusen
100% algodon
hecho in Cambodia


That's pretty good. Not even my consumer advisory tag can be printed in English.

VanHeusen you can go to hell. I don't mind that it is made in Cambodia or Nicaragua or Munchkinland, and I don't object to adding Spanish (porqué yo leo Español) but if you want to do business in "the largest market in the world" you need to at least acknowledge the majority of its people.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 19761
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:33 pm



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
Europe has a looooong way to go to achieve any kind of coherent and unified governing body that will allow it to have the diplomatic and economic influence on the world the US has.
Progress has been tremendous, but it's still no more than a bunch of very different countries that have facilitated exchange of goods and people amongst themselves, helped by a common currency.

It's also a very different model and very different vision. The U.S. was founded in one blow under a revolution with certain noble ideals of human rights and freedoms.

Europe was founded slowly, decades out from WWII. It was originally developed as an economic agreement, but now it is becoming more and more politicial. It lacks the pomp and circumstance of the U.S., but it is gaining more and more followers. Europe is expanding through voluntary addition. Europe basically sends the message that "If you like our model, you can come to us, and if we accept you, we will help you develop your economy so that you can participate in our economy." The human rights are not the big issue because they are simply a matter of course to Europe, not matters of ideal.

The GDP of the E.U. as a whole is larger than that of the U.S. However, it is more decentralized with a lower GDP per capita.

The entire idea of the E.U. is that it is supposed to be more Federalist than the U.S. is. That keeps it from becoming the same sort of monolithic nation that the U.S. has become. And in that, the E.U. doesn't believe in throwing its weight and might around like the U.S. does.

The E.U. is already the next economic superpower. It's just a new kind of superpower. And I like what I'm seeing.

The American empire is falling.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):

I noticed you said NOTHING about your fellow Americans who have lost very good jobs from outsourcing. How typically Republican. No wonder the Average Joe has been screwed over the last 8 years.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
MaverickM11
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
The fact you even ask that question makes me want to throw up. I guess, to you, there's nothing wrong wth taking good paying American jobs, with good benefits, and giving them to another nation, forcing your own countrymen to then look for jobs that don't pay nearly as wel,and with less benefits.

You know what really kills American jobs? Technology and innovation. We should probably ban both.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:51 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):

None of which has anything to do with 1. this thread or 2. the fact that you are a dog-in-the-manger internet troll still smarting from my calling you out on posting lies about me in another thread.

Actually all I ever needed to say about my "fellow Americans who have lost very good jobs from outsourcing" is right here:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
Business school brainwashees snicker and toss out buzzword-grenades but the most important thing a corporation can produce is jobs.

So American corporations, and foreign corporations wishing to do business in American markets need to produce American jobs.

Too complex a concept for you is it?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:58 pm

One thing you'll never hear from the business school wizards:
Only production and manufacturing creates wealth. Anything else (stock, finance and comodity trade, service industry) just redistributes existing wealth.
No economy can survive without a manufacturing base, and for this the economy needs skilled people, who know HOW to manufacture something. This doesn't just mean engineers and scientists, but also skilled workers and tradespeople.
If the industrial base of a country gets outsourced, the knowledge base will be destroyed and it will be much more difficult to recreate it.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
TUNisia
Posts: 1515
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:06 pm

The problem with this country (USA) is that we've gone from a country that manufactures mostly everything we need to a country that now imports mostly everything we need. It seems that nowadays the American way is to make something from nothing. We aren't producing anymore and we've seemingly become dependent on others to do everything for us.

The only way I (and this is my personal opinion) see that we can pick up is to initiate new public works projects en masse. This spurs manufacturing!

I'm not even in business school and I can connect the dots. We have money hungry fools running this country and a lot of money hungry fools waiting in the wings. They will be the downfall of this great land if something isn't done.

[Edited 2008-07-20 13:07:55]
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
In my opinion, and please, correct me if Im wrong, that Europe will be the super-power (along with Asia) of the world. By this saying, is that since the EURO is getting stronger in currency, it means that European countries will have the best economy power than the US.

For example, in Hungary, the economy is the best and its booming like crazy because the Forint currency, is the stongest in history.

Where do you get the idea that a strong currency equals a strong economy? China is booming mainly due to an artificially low exchange rate pegged to the US dollar.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
The fact you even ask that question makes me want to throw up. I guess, to you, there's nothing wrong wth taking good paying American jobs, with good benefits, and giving them to another nation, forcing your own countrymen to then look for jobs that don't pay nearly as wel,and with less benefits.

If the company can't make money paying those union backed "good paying American jobs, with good benefits" they will leave. It's that simple. Every time the union got increased pay and benefits without giving back corresponding increases in productivity, they were driving another nail into the coffin that was their livelihood... I don't like it either, but I could see it coming for thirty years.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
We must all start to live simpler lives within our means. No more big, fuel guzzling vehicles. Much smaller houses.

Within our means, yes... But why should I get a smaller house if I can afford the one I live in?

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
to accept higher taxes to pay for our debts

I already pay the government roughly 44 cents of every dollar I make... How much more do you think I should pay????  Yeah sure

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
-Large parts of the world are angry at the US and its Hippocratic foreign policy

The word is hypocritical.

The hippocratic oath is taken by medical doctors

Klaus, for probably the first time ever, I'm in total agreement with you..  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
Quoting AirStairs (Reply 17):
I can't agree on your point of infrastructure, though: it is not perfect but extremely reliable.

Old aircraft, old cars, many bridges unstable (crash in MSP), electricity system from the 1930ss (blackout couple of years ago).

Have you ever been to the US?? Sounds like you've been reading too much about us on the internet...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):

I noticed you said NOTHING about your fellow Americans who have lost very good jobs from outsourcing.

The jobs they lost were TOO good; that's why they went elsewhere...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):
I can see at a glance that those, no matter where they are made, are too spindly to be stable with my long lens.

Nope. No worries.



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
We've been a sinking ship since 1776. Someone call me when it's time to board the life rafts.

Thats a funny joke!

I think you got him wrong. He was saying that you hear from those panic attacks ("sinking ship!") from time to time, and life just goes on - not perfectly but it will.
As always, when a new President is going to be elected, some people will talk about doom and horror. At the same time, even in Iraq you can see a light at the end of the tunnel by now.

Drinkable water, climate and food will be bigger issues in future than the latest hickup at Wall Street.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
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RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:31 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 26):
Klaus, for probably the first time ever, I'm in total agreement with you..

Let's wallow in the bliss of the moment, then! Big grin
 
Dougloid
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:49 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
The hippocratic oath is taken by medical doctors.

I'm quite sure that if the US g=had a Hippocratic foreign policy with the oath's maxim "First, do no harm" that life would be a lot simpler.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:52 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
I have a machine shop building me a tripod right now because every store in town carries only Chinese crap.

Ask your local retailer to stock up on Cullmann tripods.

Amazon.com sells some of them, too.

Bah. Shop the secondary market. I got a Bolex tripod at an auction for a dollar. Nice one, too.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:18 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
I noticed you said NOTHING about your fellow Americans who have lost very good jobs from outsourcing. How typically Republican. No wonder the Average Joe has been screwed over the last 8 years.

He basically said what you did condensed here.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
As for outsourcing private sector concerns. It makes life better only for the real owners of corporations. Those of us who own "common stock" in those corporations might see a little gain, but we are mostly a buffer between the fat cats and any consequences from increasing unemployment.

I personally see outsourcing as a combination of greed (the evils of capitalism) and the lack of a will to become more efficient within the constraints of a country's laws. for example in the US you have to deal with safety regulations, paying a wage that can provide an sufficient standard of living, adhering to labour laws etc.

Also unions can be added in there which aren't bad as they are designed keep the employer in check, but unions have some bad policies such as keeping people based on seniority instead of productivity that should be illegal to do. These are all good things and think how the US would look if they had the standards of China where workers are basically as disposable as garbage bags and it once was that way.

Also as Slamclick says if people had an alternative then they would pay more for the domestic product if they had that alternative but the corporations don't answer to us. If more people did what he did this those jobs would come back in a heartbeat.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 29):
I'm quite sure that if the US g=had a Hippocratic foreign policy with the oath's maxim "First, do no harm" that life would be a lot simpler.

Yeah, maybe in a better world...!  mischievous 

In the meantime I'd even have settled for "don't do more harm than good" as an improvement. But I guess we'll get there again eventually...
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:26 pm



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 31):
Also as Slamclick says if people had an alternative then they would pay more for the domestic product if they had that alternative but the corporations don't answer to us.

And most consumers have proven they'll go for the cheap crap if given the choice (not all cheap crap is imported, by the way).

Greed is the cause of the problem there at least as much as in corporate boardrooms. If people actually rewarded quality and local investment, that would be what they'd get. That cheap crap is in many cases the only stuff you will find in wide distribution is to a large degree an expression of buyers' choices.

But I'm not ready yet to abandon all hope there.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:46 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
And most consumers have proven they'll go for the cheap crap if given the choice (not all cheap crap is imported, by the way).

Ten consumers want the $1 item.
One consumer wants the $10 version.

The purveyor of the $1 item has to build ten widgets. Actually it will have to build 16 and scrap six as defective, then give refunds because some of the retail outlets offer warranties.

The purveyor of the $10 item only one.

I don't think there is the slightest doubt about it, some form of insanity has crept into capitalism, some senile dementia, and capitalism, not necessarily the USA is about to go into convulsions and die.

We have created a business climate where if you are unfortunate enough to become the second-best in the whole world you are going to die. Soon. And it won't be natural causes, it will be cold-blooded merger that will kill you.

Ask the good folks at McDonnell-Douglas. Second only to Boeing and look what happened. When I was young there were SEVEN different corporations that made a profit manufacturing airliners in the U.S. Now there is one and it will probably be killed by Airbus in the next twenty years.

The first big change would be to make it all but impossible to merge companies. Good reason. It takes skill and intelligence to GROW a company. Any fool can merge two. Problem is the result is rarely as good as either of the merged companies were before. The culprits are two: Employee loyalty to one of the original companies and managerial ego needing to put its mark on everything. "Economy of scale" is a huge lie. The only reason it can even give the illusion of truth is because the merged giant will, briefly, have the power to squash a couple of competitors before it implodes.

God rot capitalism!
I sometimes wish I could believe in communism and didn't know what a total bunch of crap it is. Life would be so simple if I could pine for a communist takeover and not have to ponder some economic model that might actually work for more than a couple hundred years.

Did you ever notice that neither Star Wars nor Star Trek EVER brings up the subject of money? Not even their very imaginative writers can conjure up an economic system worthy of such a future.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:50 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
The entire idea of the E.U. is that it is supposed to be more Federalist than the U.S. is. That keeps it from becoming the same sort of monolithic nation that the U.S. has become. And in that, the E.U. doesn't believe in throwing its weight and might around like the U.S. does.

The E.U. is already the next economic superpower. It's just a new kind of superpower. And I like what I'm seeing.

The American empire is falling.

I have to laugh at this...Have you actually lived in the EU? I'm a British citizen and I am sitting and laughing at the absurdity of this statement...So what would you call Europe colonizing India, Latin America, Africa and the United States? Ask about their part in overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran..ROFL

If you think Europe somehow gained their power without war, without conquest, and without colonization, go ask Queen Elizabeth II to return the Jewels the British stole from the ceiling of the Taj Mahal along with all the wealth and plunder they took from India and Africa. I see all the A-Net libs screaming over the folly of the US occupation of Iraq, but has Britain ever apologized to India and paid reparations? I don't think so...

My father lived in England for 20 yrs, and my extended family have been living there since the early 60's. I personally have lived in and been educated in England (Masters from the London School of Economics). If you think 8% unemployment, high taxes, racial discrimination and race riots, (Bradford riots ring a bell?) and waiting lists for specialized medical care and even dental care (Go and see how many UK dentists accept NHS) are the answer, by all means go there.

America STILL is attracting the best and brightest from all over the world. Have you seen how busy US Embassies are abroad? In 2007 the quotas for H-1B's were filled in ONE DAY.

http://www.antaoandchuang.com/immigr...mporary-visas/work-visas/h-1b-visa

Immigrants such as myself will continue to flock to America because it is one of the rare places in the world that minimizes discrimination if you can produce period. Americans don't give a damn what color you are as long as you can do the work and do it well..

My dad was an Engineer in England and he was subject to racial discrimination and they wouldn't promote him beyond Senior Engineer...A US company gave him a visa and low and behold he was a Director 8 yrs later.

I used to get beaten up in UK schools and called racial epithets because I was Indian and even more recently had stamps literally thrown at me in a London post office and called a "Paki"...

Never happened in America, ever!

The strength of America is still in it's spirit of Innovation. We've gotten drunk on debt, self entitlement, and ignorance of the world.
 
photopilot
Posts: 3068
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 26):
If the company can't make money paying those union backed "good paying American jobs, with good benefits" they will leave. It's that simple. Every time the union got increased pay and benefits without giving back corresponding increases in productivity, they were driving another nail into the coffin that was their livelihood... I don't like it either, but I could see it coming for thirty years.

You know, I'm a manager in a union shop and it still bugs me to hear people blame the unions for all that ails a company. Did you ever look at a Union contract? Every one I've ever seen an administered has TWO signatures at the bottom (at least) from both the UNION side and the COMPANY side. So are you telling us that the company's bargaining representatives knowingly agreed to a contract that would cause harm to the company? Did someone twist their arms to sign?

But here's something that you never see mentioned as causing harm to a company. It's called Executive Bonuses and Stock Options. When an executive can increase his pay simply by making decisions that raise the stock price, with no thought to how that will affect the company LONG TERM, well you have a problem.
I once worked for a company that chopped Research and Development to nothing, chopped all investment in new machinery and updating their technology. Deferred chargebacks to their bottom line until a few years down the road. And guess what? In the short term, the company's books looked great. Profits were way up. Stock price was way up, and the proud executives took home millions in bonuses and options telling themselves what great managers they were.
Till a few years down the road when the competition (foreign or domestic) advanced and put the company at a competitive disadvantage. Of course by that time, the executives had bailed and taken their snake-oil charm and promises of great profits to another company to start the cycle over again somewhere else.
End result. The first company ran to the ground, on an viscious downward cycle of cutting and laying off staff in an effort to compete. But by then it was too late.... the smart company that had invested in the future..... at less short term profit..... bought the remains at fire-sale prices.

So BOTH sides are to blame in the downfall of North American businesses. There's a lot of things good about North American businesses, but LONG TERM business planning isn't one of them.

And now the turkey has come home to roost. Time for the USA to pay up. And it's going to hurt..... if you even survive.

nuff said.
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:33 pm



Quoting Photopilot (Reply 36):
Did you ever look at a Union contract?

Yes...

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 36):
So are you telling us that the company's bargaining representatives knowingly agreed to a contract that would cause harm to the company?

Yes, and then they went looking for a place to outsource when the contract expired...

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 36):
Did someone twist their arms to sign?

Yes, through sick-outs, slowdowns, work stoppages, strikes, etc...

Are you trying to tell me that a company can survive while perpetually giving increases in pay and benefits without getting increased productivity and/or efficiency in return?

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 36):
But here's something that you never see mentioned as causing harm to a company. It's called Executive Bonuses and Stock Options.

 checkmark  I'm with you on that one. I think the bonuses cause more harm than the options, but executive compensation overall is an area that should be completely overhauled. Last week in the US we read that Freddie Mac will need a government bailout and two days later we learn that the CEO made about twenty million bucks last year. It's unconscionable...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
AirStairs
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:47 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:34 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
Few countries do have extreme household deficits and trade balance deficits at the same time. Germany, China, Russia, Japan don't.

All of those economies (barring Germany) benefit from extremely weak currencies that afford them huge trade surpluses. Russia also sits on a heap of natural resources. The scale of Germany's market can't compare to the United States.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
but it is gaining more and more followers. Europe is expanding through voluntary addition.

Bringing in new members but letting those like Ireland and the UK slip out the back door. There is serious talk that after a Tory victory in 2010 (if you have seen Gordon Brown's numbers you know how likely this is), Britain may hold only economic agreements with the EU zone. Brussels has toyed with the idea of nulling Ireland's referendum or throwing them out altogether.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
The entire idea of the E.U. is that it is supposed to be more Federalist than the U.S. is. That keeps it from becoming the same sort of monolithic nation that the U.S. has become.

You completely and utterly contradicted the first sentence with the second. A federalist, centrally controlled system is the definition of "monolithic" (in your sense). The US is decidedly (and should be) more republican.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
And in that, the E.U. doesn't believe in throwing its weight and might around like the U.S. does.

It does, maybe even moreso, only inside its borders and toward its own members and Turkey.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
You know what really kills American jobs? Technology and innovation. We should probably ban both.

 checkmark 

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
Only production and manufacturing creates wealth. Anything else (stock, finance and comodity trade, service industry) just redistributes existing wealth.

Uhh... not quite: that is mercantilist thinking. Innovation is really the creator of value (which is wealth); financial instruments are a way assuming or offloading risk (and raising capital: in that sense, they are distributors of wealth). The notion that production and goods are the sole creators of wealth is only compatible in a zero-sum scenario where a definite amount of wealth exists and it is left to the industrialists to exploit it. We have seen that this is not the case: innovators are able to literally create new wealth out of value-added solutions.

Take for example the computer: the production of microchips is worthless without the mind that figured out how to put them together to make a value-added product. The manufacturers made and continue to make a hell of a lot of money, but those who continue to innovate in the way they are put together are the ones creating new wealth.




AirStairs
 
TUNisia
Posts: 1515
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:24 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:38 am

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 38):
innovators are able to literally create new wealth out of value-added solutions.

Where will these innovators come from that you allude to? Will they come from the US? A country that doesn't even teach geography to the majority of its students.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 38):
the production of microchips

Where are microchips produced?

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 38):
innovators are able to literally create new wealth out of value-added solutions.

Tell this to a US blue collar worker who lost their job in the last 10 years. You'll make a new best friend.

BTW.... a good video to watch...



[Edited 2008-07-20 17:43:10]
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:57 am



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 34):
Did you ever notice that neither Star Wars nor Star Trek EVER brings up the subject of money? Not even their very imaginative writers can conjure up an economic system worthy of such a future.

Star Wars does but it needed just to fill some sub-plots and thats about it.

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 36):
But here's something that you never see mentioned as causing harm to a company. It's called Executive Bonuses and Stock Options. When an executive can increase his pay simply by making decisions that raise the stock price, with no thought to how that will affect the company LONG TERM, well you have a problem.

This is a huge issue that has gone crazy in the North America which is the Rich vs Poor gap, and it is more destructive than it is made out to be, because the poor and middle class do the most to stimulate the economy. Also I bet the average salary for the board members of GM is much higher than those for Toyota which makes no sense because GM is bleeding profusely and Toyota is making money. And although GM is unionized and Toyota isn't the Toyota manufacturers make the same amount as the GM workers with the same benefits if their plants happen to be in the same country.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:30 am

Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
By this saying, is that since the EURO is getting stronger in currency

Don't be fooled by exchange rates. €1 bought almost 5 Polish Zlotys in early 2004, today €1 buys only 3.22 Polish Zlotys. Euro has lost value too, just not as quickly as the Dollar.

The difference between the Dollar and the Zloty went from 1:4 to 1:2 in the same time period.

Just because you are falling faster than your friend when you two go skydiving doesn't mean your friend is rising when you look back at him.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
If people actually rewarded quality and local investment, that would be what they'd get.

Taxes are a major disincentive to produce locally. Unless you are a big politicized industry, like automobiles, you probably can't afford to have the kind of influence and lobbyists huge car makers can to get tax cuts and other benefits. There are far too many examples of companies, particularly manufacturing, avoiding high taxation areas.

Of course, there are other things like labor costs to include, but the area of taxes (business-friendly environment) is one of the ways us "third world countries" compete with each other for foreign investments.

[Edited 2008-07-20 18:36:02]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 41):
Don't be fooled by exchange rates. €1 bought almost 5 Polish Zlotys in early 2004, today €1 buys only 3.22 Polish Zlotys. Euro has lost value too, just not as quickly as the Dollar.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Before (or better instead of) issuing such utterly laughable statements you should have informed yourself a bit better.

Poland is being prepped for full participation in the european Common Market including accession to the Euro Zone, among other things with substantial european aid. That the Zloty is rising from the near-junk status most eastern bloc currencies once had to the greater vicinity of the Euro is anything but accidental — it is simply a sign of the reforms taking hold which are a precondition of the Euro Zone accession.

Concluding from the rising Zloty to the Euro "losing value" is utterly ridiculous, especially when looking at the greater picture from pretty much any angle you'd like.

Of course the Euro could lose value again (and it probably will some day), but at this time you could hardly be any more wrong.
 
TUNisia
Posts: 1515
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:24 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:37 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 41):

Don't be fooled by exchange rates.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 41):
Euro has lost value too, just not as quickly as the Dollar.

Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
AirStairs
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:47 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting TUNisia (Reply 39):
Where will these innovators come from that you allude to? Will they come from the US? A country that doesn't even teach geography to the majority of its students.

History shows that they do in fact come from the United States and secondarily Japan. The iPod is the perfect example. Google? Generated hundreds of billions of dollars not out of production but innovation. Mobile phones, flatscreen televisions, nuclear power, even a franchise like Harry Potter (albeit British) is a perfect example: billions were made not from the manufacture of books (700 pages of bound paper is worthless), but solely for the ideas laid down on them.

It is because in the United States more than any other country, R&D is made the most attractive, we have the most receptive and spend-friendly population in the world, and such innovation is heavily rewarded.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 39):
Where are microchips produced?

Taiwan. This is exactly my point: the companies in Silicon Valley and Tokyo that innovate and design the product are creating all of the wealth, the manufacturers get a remarkably smaller share of the pie. Obviously some manufacture in house, but all the factors are still there.



AirStairs
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:28 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
If it ever happens to you, pal, then come back and answer that question.

The fact you even ask that question makes me want to throw up. I guess, to you, there's nothing wrong wth taking good paying American jobs, with good benefits, and giving them to another nation, forcing your own countrymen to then look for jobs that don't pay nearly as wel,and with less benefits.

If you call that progress, then I pity you. That kind of attitude, imho, is as anti-American as one can get.

Great post!

Let's see here...

What is outsourcing? It means pretty much what you already posted. Companies do that because to them, it's way cheaper to pay someone over in India to do the same job as an American employee. That means, the "USA" corporations save on employee salary expenditures, boosting profits. So, the companies themselves are looking rather healthy, while the working class slowly becomes the lower or poverty class.

If it were up to me, I would ban outsourcing. Either do that, or tax these companies out the arse because of this. Seriously, this country is supposed to be the land of opportunity. As of late, all that I am seeing and hearing about is how the dollar is shrinking in value, the job market is the worst in 20+ years, the skyrocketing cost of oil, etc... Yet, most of our senators and legistlators are worried about is lining their own fakokta pockets with our money...

Yeah, I would certainly like to change that. That is not what America is supposed to be about

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
Not a sinking ship, but one that has been 'on tour' without repairs for way too long.

Yeah, I don't think the US is a sinking ship per se either. Things are supremely bad here. I really want to find some other job should my internship end and the City of Philly doesn't extend my employment beyond August. I am really worried about that. I had to endure several months of unemployment and financial support from my parents for a while, and I really do not want to do that again. I am 25, and I have hopes and dreams, like getting married in the very near future. I think I am very well qualified to do a number of jobs, but apparently employers like to think otherwise. Sometimes I do wonder who is getting the jobs instead of yours truely...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:46 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 41):
Don't be fooled by exchange rates. €1 bought almost 5 Polish Zlotys in early 2004, today €1 buys only 3.22 Polish Zlotys. Euro has lost value too, just not as quickly as the Dollar.

Then the Pound Sterling has lost much of its value, too.  Yeah sure

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
That the Zloty is rising from the near-junk status most eastern bloc currencies once had to the greater vicinity of the Euro is anything but accidental — it is simply a sign of the reforms taking hold which are a precondition of the Euro Zone accession.

To be fair, the Polish strong and efficient economy is the main driving force behind the Zloty's appreciation. Poland combines nearly all advantages central Europe has to offer with comparatively low labor costs, which is why Poland is frequently perceived as an attractive alternative to even higher developed countries, i.e. the nearby Germany.

High interest rates result in high returns on investment in Zloty assets which make the currency more attractive to financial investors.

Funny enough, "early 2004", the first date PPVRA mentioned, was when Poland joined the European Union. Since then the Polish currency has continually been strengthened. How this speaks against the European Union or its common currency is a bit beyond me, but then again, I'm no expert. Big grin
I support the right to arm bears
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 45):
If it were up to me, I would ban outsourcing. Either do that, or tax these companies out the arse because of this.

I wonder how you want to keep those companies inside the U.S.A. if you ban outsourcing or heavily tax them?
I support the right to arm bears
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:36 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 46):
To be fair, the Polish strong and efficient economy is the main driving force behind the Zloty's appreciation. Poland combines nearly all advantages central Europe has to offer with comparatively low labor costs, which is why Poland is frequently perceived as an attractive alternative to even higher developed countries, i.e. the nearby Germany.

Absolutely — the issue is just that this is a rather normal transitional situation, Whether Poland can actually maintain a cost advantage over the long run when the cost of living and wages have adapted to central european levels is an entirely different matter.

Not that I believed that the poles were incapable of achieving that, it's just a lot more difficult than reaping the fruits of a singular situation which will not persist.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The USA: A Sinking Ship?

Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:40 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 45):
What is outsourcing? It means pretty much what you already posted. Companies do that because to them, it's way cheaper to pay someone over in India to do the same job as an American employee. That means, the "USA" corporations save on employee salary expenditures, boosting profits. So, the companies themselves are looking rather healthy, while the working class slowly becomes the lower or poverty class.

On the other hand those same workers were so desperate to consume like there was no tomorrow that they just had to buy truckloads of cheap, imported goods on credit instead of sticking to domestic quality products and to the extent they could actually afford.

It's not just the evil corporations, it's also a consumer culture not rewarding quality but instead the lowest possible price — at any cost, as it turns out.

[Edited 2008-07-20 22:41:41]

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