Pope
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Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:43 am

The IRS released the 2006 data and it demonstrates that the 2003 Bush tax "cuts" created the largest ever tax increase on the rich.

The data shows that the top 1% paid 40% of all federal income taxes, the "highest share in at least 40 years." The top 1% earned 22% of all reported income yet paid almost double their share in taxes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1216...d=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

The bottom 50% of US taxpayers paid less than 3% of all federal taxes.

No President has ever taken more taxes from the rich than GWB. This dramatic increase in taxes resulted in a reduction the federal deficit from 3.5% of GDP in 2003 to 1.9% in 2006.

The CBO wrongly had predicted that these tax cuts would result in a $1 Trillion decrease in revenue.

Someone please tell me when the rich have paid their fair share of taxes because it seems that they're doing more than enough now.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
AirStairs
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:46 am

One is too many, and a thousand not enough. They will continue to demand more. Where is John Galt?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:47 am



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Someone please tell me when the rich have paid their fair share of taxes because it seems that they're doing more than enough now.

I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.  Yeah sure
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Confuscius
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:48 am



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1216...looks

Banner says: A Daily Political Newsletter from WSJ.com's Opinion Editors

(Rupert Murdoch Publication)

Bottom of web page says:

See all of today's editorials and op-eds, plus video commentary, on Opinion Journal.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
Pope
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:51 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.  

Fantastic response. Make the issue about me and ignore the facts. Oh yeah and once again, when give the opportunity to answer the question, you chose to avoid the matter.

Perfect.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:56 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.

What does an "unfair life" have to do with an unfair proportion of tax? And where in the quoted article or elsewhere did any wealthy person complain about how "unfair" their lives are? I've never heard any such thing.

I'm the last person to defend wealthy people when they're in the wrong, because they should never be, but on a matter like this, what's with the vitriol?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Pope
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:56 am



Quoting Confuscius (Reply 3):
(Rupert Murdoch Publication)

I guess George Soros is the only one who can offer an opinion that liberals will accept. While the piece may be an op-ed, the data cited can be accessed from the IRS's website. But again, why debate the data when it's so damning. Attack the source. Are you saying that the data isn't correct or you don't like where it's coming from?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:00 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 6):

I guess George Soros is the only one who can offer an opinion that liberals will accept.

I'll listen to Warren Buffett any day of the week.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:04 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
What does an "unfair life" have to do with an unfair proportion of tax?

I was being sarcastic. If you're that wealthy, much in life isn't unfair. I was just chiding Pope for being such an advocate of the rich.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Quoting Pope (Reply 6):

I guess George Soros is the only one who can offer an opinion that liberals will accept.

I'll listen to Warren Buffett any day of the week.

Agreed. I'd listen to him over Soros, who is just a blowhard.
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N1120A
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:06 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):

Agreed. I'd listen to him over Soros, who is just a blowhard.

Soros is no blowhard. That man knows what to do with and how to make money.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:11 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Soros is no blowhard. That man knows what to do with and how to make money.

Maybe he does, but I still see him as a blowhard.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Pope
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:11 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
I'll listen to Warren Buffett any day of the week.

Has Warren Buffet disputed this data?

From what I've seen Buffet has made statements regarding the mega-rich (himself, Bill Gates, a couple hedge fund managers - maybe those who represent the top 0.001% of earners). But the article clearly points out that the top 1% starts at $386,000. Nobody can argue that these people are in the same situation as those who measure income in the hundreds of million of dollar.

While these mega-rich really don't care how much tax they pay because it make no difference to their lifestyle. Someone who earns a hundred million plus may not really see the difference of paying an extra $2 or $3M in tax. But someone who earns $400,000 sees a difference with a $12,000 difference in their after tax income. But in either case, it can't be said that the rich as a group don't pay their fair share of income - which is exactly what liberals like Obama like to argue.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:14 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.

who you should be critical of is the wealthy that seek to avoid paying tax by hiding their squillions in offshore bank accounts.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:19 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):


Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Someone please tell me when the rich have paid their fair share of taxes because it seems that they're doing more than enough now.

I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.

Why is it that "the rich" can never pay too much? I don't understand why there's always such a "Yeah - stick it to 'em!" mentality among the Democratic base.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:21 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 12):
who you should be critical of is the wealthy that seek to avoid paying tax by hiding their squillions in offshore bank accounts.

Oh, trust me, I am. Many get their millions off the hard work of others, then hide their money in offshore accounts, and give nothng back at all to this nation. They're just siphons, imho, who care only about themselves.
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:24 am



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Why is it that "the rich" can never pay too much?

Perhaps it's because the richest can often afford lawyers who find every loophole, and every offshore hiding place for them, so that many of them don't pay anywhere near what they could on a normal tax rate?

One advantage of being filthy rich is you can afford such help, and many do. You know it and I know it.
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Pope
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:28 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
They're just siphons, imho, who care only about themselves.

As alway, you let him speak long enough and he'll demonstrate his hypocrisy. One minute you're arguing against the conservatives imposing their morality on others, and here you are imposing a morality of care on the rich. I love it. You're so predictable.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:32 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
As alway, you let him speak long enough and he'll demonstrate his hypocrisy. One minute you're arguing against the conservatives imposing their morality on others, and here you are imposing a morality of care on the rich. I love it. You're so predictable.

Ah, so you have no problem with the rich not paying their fair share by finding every loophole, or putting their money in offshore accounts?

Again, I'm glad the rich have such a strong advocate. They really need one like you, to look out for them.

I don't see how I'm imposing morality on anyone, dude. I can't impose what I thnk about that, and change how it works, can I? But, I guess when it comes to my opinions, you thnk I'm not allowed to have them. I'll remember that.
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Mir
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:38 am



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
The IRS released the 2006 data and it demonstrates that the 2003 Bush tax "cuts" created the largest ever tax increase on the rich.

I wouldn't call that a tax increase on the rich. As far as I know, the rich are paying less tax per person/household under Bush than Clinton. It's more of a statement of how the wide the gap between rich and poor has grown that the rich as a whole pay so much more in taxes than the poor as a whole.

-Mir
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EA CO AS
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:47 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Why is it that "the rich" can never pay too much?

Perhaps it's because the richest can often afford lawyers who find every loophole, and every offshore hiding place for them, so that many of them don't pay anywhere near what they could on a normal tax rate?

One advantage of being filthy rich is you can afford such help, and many do. You know it and I know it.

Certainly, but even then, the rich - after taking advantage of loophole after loophole - still pay WAY more as a percentage of income than you or I ever will.

So how is that right?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:56 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
and here you are imposing a morality of care on the rich.

the law is the law, its quite clear that many wealthy individuals go to great lengths when it comes to avoiding tax payment, just ask UBS and the commission that is now investigating clients & their schemes to hide money.

seems you have a disregard for the law?! I note that Australian businessman and owner of Westfield shopping centres is also caught up in this, ripping off yours & the Australian taxman to the tune of around $70 million.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
Certainly, but even then, the rich - after taking advantage of loophole after loophole - still pay WAY more as a percentage of income than you or I ever will.

So how is that right?

so how is it right that they can setup numbered accounts in Switzerland and Lichtenstein and avoid their tax liability altogether?

[Edited 2008-07-21 18:58:30]
 
steeler83
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Perhaps it's because the richest can often afford lawyers who find every loophole, and every offshore hiding place for them, so that many of them don't pay anywhere near what they could on a normal tax rate?

That's why I'm not that big of a fan of the filthy rich. Okay, so they know how to make money, fine. But, then, they want to make $10 million into $100 million and so on and so forth, and they'll find any way possible to keep from paying taxes and what have you. It seems to me that half of them don't even donate to charities.

Look at Bill Gates. Sure, he found out ways of making himself into a mega billionaire. What did he do? He gave, IIRC, a THIRD of his worth to several charities over in Africa. Sure, there are tax breaks for those who give to charities I believe, but this guy didn't just do that for the sake of tax breaks. He and his wife then went to Africa to see how his donations were being used and how things were progressing. I am sure there are some others who follow by this example, but not that many IMO.

Ok, so there isn't anything wrong with making yourself into a very wealthy figure. I just don't like the fellows who basically fall in love with the idea of making money. My grandmother always said that the love of money is the route of all evil -- true words, IMO.

Mr Falcon84, I do agree with you to a degree about how the rich should pay their fair share of taes, because many of them, as you say, do not. Those, for the most part, seem to be those who have pretty much fallen in love with money. I am sure that many of they probably even split with their wives because they're in it for money and could probably get someone else for a "trophy wife."

To everyone else, yes, I may be a democrat, but refuse to label myself as a "bleeding-heart liberal." I do not really believe in a redistribution of the wealth. People have made their millions, and kudos to them. I do not have any respect for anyone who deliberately hides money to get out of paying taxes, just so they can continuously replicate their green and replicate their green...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Flighty
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:03 am

The rich pay a ridiculously low tax rate. The upper middle class pays much higher rates, and it sucks. (greater than 40% for some people, of their gross income). Meanwhile, the "rich" investor class pays 15% on capital gains, typically deferred below 15%. Hello? Only suckers have a job. This economy penalizes actually working. It rewards being an aristocrat, with no job who collects dividends.


Bush cut taxes on the rich low enough that they actually __stopped dodging__ capital gains taxes as much, which made tax revenues shoot up. Thus, since the rich have so incredibly much money, they paid an increased amount of money in taxes even though their effective tax rates have FALLEN for years.

Overall, this has been a good thing. Freer capital flows have enhanced our entire economy. The rich got richer on that. So did the entire country. Meanwhile, the tax cut on the rich resulted in higher revenue. It's the Laffer curve for real this time. The only problem is fairness.
 
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:09 am



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
Look at Bill Gates.

For a guy with $64 billion, Bill Gates has paid an __extremely__ small amount in taxes to the US Government during his lifetime.

He pays a higher AMOUNT than most people, but pays a lower RATE than anybody except the lower middle class, as well. It is hard to justify why Gates, who has paid maybe $1 billion in taxes in his lifetime, should retain $60 Billion in wealth while upper middle class people, pay much greater shares of their lifetime wealth in taxes. This is because our government punishes those who work hard. It also rewards the middle class, the lower class and people just getting by. Quite simply, there is almost no reason for someone earning $100,000 to try to earn $200,000. You get almost none of that money and your quality of life suffers.
 
steeler83
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:16 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
Quite simply, there is almost no reason for someone earning $100,000 to try to earn $200,000. You get almost none of that money and your quality of life suffers.

Amen
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
The data shows that the top 1% paid 40% of all federal income taxes, the "highest share in at least 40 years." The top 1% earned 22% of all reported income yet paid almost double their share in taxes.

There isn't any "their share" involved. Different income groups pay taxes based on their ability to pay and live a life that is by any definition is excellent. Taxes do not cause wealthy people to become poor, it changes their spending and or earning and or reporting habits. It encourages money flows to change direction or to flow to where they are needed. The fact is the wealthy are direct beneficiaries of the taxes they pay by way of a society that is the strongest in the world. Without their contributions the USA would not be as strong as it is and it can quite effectively be argued that the wealthy should pay more because they get a fantastic deal of living in the USA.

The other question that goes begging is how much did the top income payers income have to go up in order to generate that additional tax revenue?

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):

The bottom 50% of US taxpayers paid less than 3% of all federal taxes.

Median household income in the USA is ~$45,000 (and if your single its a bit less than half that). How much more should they pay out of their $45,000? How much does it cost you to live on a annual basis? I haven't been able to find a Median Cost of Living stat like they have for income but I can imagine it is some where awfully close to $45K for a typical "household" (which is what, a middle aged family of 3 or 4?).

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
The CBO wrongly had predicted that these tax cuts would result in a $1 Trillion decrease in revenue.

And we still spent a half trillion more than we brought in, all with a sitting Republican president that could have vetoed out of balance budgets but didn't.
And it did result in a decrease from what WOULD have been brought in. The real question is how did the tax cuts affect the money flows. If the money is forced back into society through job creation that the net effect was positive. If the cuts served to concentrate the money more (say into money and hedge fund managers) with foster distribution into the wider society then they were harmful overall.

One of the real questions is how much of their actual yearly flows of money (not "income" as defined by the IRS) and how much was their overall wealth affected? Did a "person of wealth" lose wealth or gain? If they gained then the taxes are not deleterious.

Just my opinion (an opinion from one the most heavily taxed income brackets - middle to upper middle class).


Some interesting information:
Fiscal year 2008 federal revenues will come from four major sources: individual income tax (48 percent), corporate income tax (14 percent), payroll taxes (36 percent), and excise taxes (3 percent). Estate and gift taxes, customs duties, Federal Reserve earnings/losses, and miscellaneous receipts will account for -1 percent.
Source: Budget of the United States Government Fiscal Year 2009, Historical Tables
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/hist.html


Also, from the Census:
Bottom 20%:
$0 - 17,984
(3.4% of the income)

Lower Middle 20%:
$17,985 - 34,000
(8.7% of the income)

Middle 20%
$34,001 - 54,453
(14.8% of the income)

Upper Middle 20%
$54,454 - 86,867
(23.4% of the income)

Top 20%
$86,867 - No limit
(49.8% of the income)

Also interesting is the following statistic:
Top 5%
$154,120 - No limit
(21.4% of the income)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
RJdxer
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:30 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
One advantage of being filthy rich is you can afford such help, and many do. You know it and I know it.

So you just take whatever figure comes up after you figure out you adjusted gross income right? You don't look to add the mortgage interest deduction, child deductions....you just pay that first figure right? And you don't even support any accountants in the process as they do.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
But, I guess when it comes to my opinions, you thnk I'm not allowed to have them. I'll remember that.

You are free to have your opinions and we will remember them.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
the rich are paying less tax per person/household under Bush than Clinton.

And in doing so they are actually paying more since they have more of their income to use as investment.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Meanwhile, the "rich" investor class pays 15% on capital gains, typically deferred below 15%. Hello? Only suckers have a job. This economy penalizes actually working. It rewards being an aristocrat, with no job who collects dividends.

????? The 15% capital gains is on top of the income tax. What accountant do you use?
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:53 am

I do want to ask Pope and RJdxer something: why do you give a shit what the government taxes the rich for anyway? Are you filthy rich, either one of you? If that were the case, I'd understand your concern, but you guys bitch and moan about how badly the rich are treated all the time. They have EVERYTHING. Money, prestige, power, and the ability to throw all of it around, yet you, and other conservatives, act like they're the most put-upon group on the face of the earth.

You take the side of the rich over the Average Joe; you also seem to take the side of corporate American over those who work their asses off for them every day, and make rich people out of those who sit at the top of said corporate ladders.

So, why do you care so much what happens to those who control the vast majority of the wealth in this nation?
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AirStairs
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:17 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
The rich pay a ridiculously low tax rate. The upper middle class pays much higher rates, and it sucks. (greater than 40% for some people, of their gross income). Meanwhile, the "rich" investor class pays 15% on capital gains, typically deferred below 15%. Hello? Only suckers have a job. This economy penalizes actually working. It rewards being an aristocrat, with no job who collects dividends.

Uh... that capital gains tax is the nice fat cherry on top of the income tax that the IRS collects regardless. The interest in my savings account is taxed; sorry, but you're wrong in that area.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
This is because our government punishes those who work hard.

You're right, the government is the jockey on the back of those who work hard, think hard, and innovate, with the riding crop at the ready, prodding them on lest they work at a slower pace and allow the entire government and country to fall into underfunded disarray.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
He pays a higher AMOUNT than most people, but pays a lower RATE than anybody except the lower middle class, as well. It is hard to justify why Gates, who has paid maybe $1 billion in taxes in his lifetime, should retain $60 Billion in wealth while upper middle class people, pay much greater shares of their lifetime wealth in taxes.

Because the $64 billion or so number is net worth. He does not "have" $64 billion on hand, but his liquidated value including Microsoft equity, stock options, and god knows what else he has up his sleeve is, in aggregate, worth $64bn at market value.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
You take the side of the rich over the Average Joe; you also seem to take the side of corporate American over those who work their asses off for them every day, and make rich people out of those who sit at the top of said corporate ladders.

If life were so simple I would not have to work so hard to get to the top of "said corporate ladders." If only...
 
Flighty
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:39 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 28):
Uh... that capital gains tax is the nice fat cherry on top of the income tax that the IRS collects regardless.

Which equals zero, if you have zero wages. The really rich individuals I know don't make wages, because why would they need a job... they are rich.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 26):
????? The 15% capital gains is on top of the income tax. What accountant do you use?

On top of huh what? Really... if you own a share of Microsoft, whose value grows to $20 billion, you pay zero tax. When you cash it all in, you pay 15%. Interesting, maybe surprising.... but true.

If you like, visit the following site and input the following: zero wages and $10,000,000 in capital gains.

You'll see that your tax bill is a little under $1.5M, or 15%. Which a smart accountant can push lower. Go ahead, try it out.

http://www.dinkytown.net/java/Tax1040.html
 
jcs17
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:44 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.

Oh Falcon, Lord of the Working Class, please impart more of your class envy onto those reading these message boards. Actually, I'm just kidding, kind of. I sure hope I make less than you, and I'm sure I do. Yet why is it that I hope that the rich... and myself... are taxed even less. Oh yeah, I forgot, they gave me a job. The owner of my company (privately held) makes $12.5 million a year, as he less than tactfully told us once. He's an absolute jackass, his payment plans are terrible for us, and yet I don't want him paying more in taxes. Why? That guy is going to make $12.5 million dollars a year no matter what. Obama can jack up the upper-class tax rate to 50% and I'll make less money. Through less customers and my owner wanting to make $12.5 mil, I'm screwed. In your circumstance where you have a union at your side it's fine to play class envy and jerk management around. However, in most circumstances (you know, the real business world where unions don't exist) it isn't acceptable and will lead to less money in your pocket.

Low taxes for all! Rich and poor alike!
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:01 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
For a guy with $64 billion, Bill Gates has paid an __extremely__ small amount in taxes to the US Government during his lifetime.

He doesn't "have" $64 billion though - that's just what his holdings (mostly stock) would be worth if he sold it.

Which he hasn't.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
It is hard to justify why Gates, who has paid maybe $1 billion in taxes in his lifetime, should retain $60 Billion in wealth while upper middle class people, pay much greater shares of their lifetime wealth in taxes.

Again, he has that wealth on paper only - it's not like he's got $64B sitting in a bank somewhere earning 20%.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
I do want to ask Pope and RJdxer something: why do you give a shit what the government taxes the rich for anyway? Are you filthy rich, either one of you? If that were the case, I'd understand your concern, but you guys bitch and moan about how badly the rich are treated all the time.

Okay, let me put your question another way so you can understand how ludicrous it is:

"Why do you give a shit about equality for minorities and women? Are you black, either one of you?"


Point being, you don't need to be treated unfairly to think that being treated unfairly sucks.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:03 am



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 31):
Okay, let me put your question another way so you can understand how ludicrous it is:

"Why do you give a shit about equality for minorities and women? Are you black, either one of you?"


Point being, you don't need to be treated unfairly to think that being treated unfairly sucks.

You're comparing minorities and women to the rich? That's rich. Minorities and women HAVE been treated unfairly throughout history. The rich haven't. Ever. So it's not a valid comparison, my friend.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:13 am



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 30):
He's an absolute jackass, his payment plans are terrible for us, and yet I don't want him paying more in taxes.

If that's what you think, Jcs, then you've got a few screws loose. But I'm not surprised by that.

Oh, and when you get up that corporate ladder, remember how shitty he treats you, and I hope you'll try to treat your employees a little better. Based on your past attitude about most working stiffs in this world, I don't think you'll remember the lesson.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AirStairs
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:28 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 29):
Which equals zero, if you have zero wages. The really rich individuals I know don't make wages, because why would they need a job... they are rich.

Most high net-worth individuals, including ones who inherit, have their money managed professionally, generally in a mixture of the equities, mutual funds and bonds. All income from bonds and dividends is taxable.

Even if they were to park that money in a standard savings account, the interest is taxable. Do you really think they just stash their cash under the bed and take some out when they need it?

The tax is not on "wages" it is on "income."

Quoting Flighty (Reply 29):
if you own a share of Microsoft, whose value grows to $20 billion, you pay zero tax.

But you pay tax on all of the dividends in the meantime, on top of the fat wad when you cash out. When you die, your children will again pay tax on that money, and so forth.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:31 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 31):
Okay, let me put your question another way so you can understand how ludicrous it is:

"Why do you give a shit about equality for minorities and women? Are you black, either one of you?"


Point being, you don't need to be treated unfairly to think that being treated unfairly sucks.

You're comparing minorities and women to the rich? That's rich. Minorities and women HAVE been treated unfairly throughout history. The rich haven't. Ever. So it's not a valid comparison, my friend.

You know I respect the hell out of you, but honestly - who are you to decide what level of unfair treatment is acceptable?

Unfair treatment is unfair treatment, no matter how you slice it - be it having a far larger percentage of your income taken from you than others, or being told you have to sit in the back of the bus because of your skin color.

Are there two WILDLY different levels here? ABSOLUTELY! And I'd never argue otherwise.

However, at the end of the day, it's not right to say that some levels of unfair treatment are somehow just ducky because darn it, those people we're treating unfairly have advantages we don't.

"Harrison Bergeron" anyone?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
TUNisia
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:33 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 34):

But you pay tax on all of the dividends in the meantime, on top of the fat wad when you cash out. When you die, your children will again pay tax on that money, and so forth.

It's a shame more people aren't/weren't tuned into municipal bonds.
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
RJdxer
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:43 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
They have EVERYTHING. Money, prestige, power, and the ability to throw all of it around, yet you, and other conservatives, act like they're the most put-upon group on the face of the earth.

And you act like they've done something wrong or that they don't deserve their lot in life. Class envy is such a sorry way to live your life.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
You take the side of the rich over the Average Joe;

The point being there shouldn't be any sides. Yet you make a point at every turn of basically saying they should have every thing taken from them. Besides, I aspire to be one of them. Won't happen unless I hit the right 7 numbers but then it could just as easily happen to someone playing their last buck. Are you then going to trash that person?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
you also seem to take the side of corporate American over those who work their asses off for them every day

Nobody has a gun to your head saying you have to work for corporate america. If you feel so put out then strike out on your own. Find a niche that isn't being filled, start your business and make your pile. In the meantime complaining about those that have just makes you look petty.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
and make rich people out of those who sit at the top of said corporate ladders.

Yes they of course just showed up and filled out the application for President or CEO, they didn't show any sense of purpose or intellect until the job interview for those positions.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
So, why do you care so much what happens to those who control the vast majority of the wealth in this nation?

Because they can move and in doing so take their wealth with them and that would be a very bad thing for this country.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 29):
... if you own a share of Microsoft, whose value grows to $20 billion, you pay zero tax.

Please don't advertise yourself as an accountant. I sold some stock last year. I purchased the stock at 25 dollars a share and sold it at 36 dollars a share. That means I made 11 dollars a share. The total of the sale minus what I had paid for it in the beginning since it wasn't tax differed was counted as income. I paid capital gains taxes on that same amount. So guess what, I was taxed twice. Obviously the income tax I paid on that amount since it was lumped in with my other income and subject to deduction was much lower but where you got the idea that the profit was not counted as income is beyond me.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Super80DFW
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:45 am

What about the idea of a "Fair Income Tax"?

(Hypothetical) There is a Fair Income Tax of 20% from income levels.

(Quoting Reply 25) The households making: $0-$54,453 get a raise in taxes. The households making $54,434+ get a decrease in taxes.

I guess there is really no "fair" way to tax citizens because there will always be people that say "the middle class are taxed to much", or "the rich aren't taxed enough."
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
AirStairs
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:57 am



Quoting TUNisia (Reply 36):

It's a shame more people aren't/weren't tuned into municipal bonds.

Which can be kind of a trade off with lower yields, but with obvious tax and rating advantages. But the muni auction-rate issuers are getting bent over the kitchen counter these days paying a penalty coupon in the 20% range and higher. Not a fun place to be, that market.

Vanilla muni bonds should be fine, though.
 
jcs17
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:58 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):

If that's what you think, Jcs, then you've got a few screws loose. But I'm not surprised by that.

Oh, and when you get up that corporate ladder, remember how shitty he treats you, and I hope you'll try to treat your employees a little better. Based on your past attitude about most working stiffs in this world, I don't think you'll remember the lesson.

Why would I care about my owner? After all, he started off as a salesman in another industry. He worked his way to the top, and I respect him for it -- despite his white-trash, asshole tendencies.

I'm actually not interested in the corporate ladder, I never have been. The job I'm working at now is just to support me as I write several business models and attempt to get funding through angel investors and (hopefully not) venture capitalists. However, a business plan that I have written up is in the same field as my current employer. I would pay the employees hourly [less] (because its not a tough job) and gives them much more benefits (because no one gives them enough in the industry). It's not about working stiffs, Falcon. It's about what you and I are worth and what we do to better ourselves and make ourselves more valuable -- thus increasing our pay.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
AirStairs
Posts: 390
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:09 am



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 40):
I'm actually not interested in the corporate ladder, I never have been. The job I'm working at now is just to support me as I write several business models and attempt to get funding through angel investors and (hopefully not) venture capitalists.

Good luck; my dad started this process about four years ago when he branched out from medicine into medical technology. I don't know whether or not you are married; but, all I can say is that my mother had a lot of sleepless nights. A lot of disappointment but a lot of success as well. Again, good luck.
 
Flighty
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:19 am



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 31):
Again, he has that wealth on paper only - it's not like he's got $64B sitting in a bank somewhere earning 20%.

True, paper wealth, but very real... Gates owns the bricks, mortar and trademarks of Microsoft.... it's not mere promissory notes. He owns real stuff. It's real wealth.

Could he convert it into US dollars overnight... no. Could he do it in 24 months... sure.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 34):
Do you really think they just stash their cash under the bed and take some out when they need it?

No, they invest it. But they also professionally "minimize taxes." This means, for example, they do not desire bond income. This is taxed too highly so they do not want it. Rich people are certainly in the 40% tax bracket. They do have a little "standard income" just like you say.

But mainly, they live off capital gains. This is taxed at 15% or lower. This is their bread and butter...

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 34):
The tax is not on "wages" it is on "income."

They avoid taxable income as much as possible. Ideally, they substitute with capital gains, or some other exotic thing they cooked up to avoid taxes. They don't just collect 3% on bonds, then pay income taxes of 40%... they would be chumps to do that. Let alone working for a living... HAH... wealth management is 40% investing and 60% avoiding taxes.

It is amazing how much money you can make without paying taxes. Here's a normal rich guy...

"The income tax return shows that the Cheneys owe federal taxes for 2007 of $602,651 on taxable income of $2,528,068. " That's a rate of about 23.8%. Well done, Dick!

The Clintons also paid around 25% for 2007, on income of like $30 million.

Hedge fund managers are legendary for paying under 10% on many millions in income. This is because they are friends with the best tax lawyers on Wall Street. Ever heard of tax lawyers? What do we suppose they do all day...?....  Smile That's right, helping rich guys dodge taxes.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 34):
But you pay tax on all of the dividends in the meantime, on top of the fat wad when you cash out. When you die, your children will again pay tax on that money, and so forth.

You're right. But by the way, this is one reason why rich people hate stocks that pay dividends. The taxes eat up the dividends, if you are in a high bracket. It's very inefficient, subject to the "triple tax." So they go for more growth stocks.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 36):
It's a shame more people aren't/weren't tuned into municipal bonds.

Exactly. Rich people love them... since they are in the highest tax brackets. So, a tax free municipal bond is like gold to them. Typically an auction winner for munipal bonds will be a rich guy or gal who must pay 40% on their income out in the real world, so their scenario gets the most value out of the muni bond and its tax exemption.
 
AirStairs
Posts: 390
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:55 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
No, they invest it. But they also professionally "minimize taxes." This means, for example, they do not desire bond income. This is taxed too highly so they do not want it. Rich people are certainly in the 40% tax bracket. They do have a little "standard income" just like you say.

But mainly, they live off capital gains. This is taxed at 15% or lower. This is their bread and butter...



Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
They avoid taxable income as much as possible. Ideally, they substitute with capital gains, or some other exotic thing they cooked up to avoid taxes. They don't just collect 3% on bonds, then pay income taxes of 40%... they would be chumps to do that. Let alone working for a living... HAH... wealth management is 40% investing and 60% avoiding taxes.

I am a little surprised that you are telling me what "they" do or how much standard income "they" have because I both use a money manager and work for one.

The notion that "they" live solely off capital gains is silly: do you think that some significant inflow finds its way to some special fellow's doorstep every year? I have never cashed out on even a small part of my portfolio. Where are all these phantom capital gains coming from?

And why wouldn't anyone minimize his tax liability to the greatest extent possible?
 
Flighty
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:22 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 43):
I have never cashed out on even a small part of my portfolio. Where are all these phantom capital gains coming from?

?? Then how do you live? Do you have a job? ......

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 43):
The notion that "they" live solely off capital gains is silly:

Haha... silly in what way?

It's called living off your wealth....

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 43):
And why wouldn't anyone minimize his tax liability to the greatest extent possible?

indeed
 
MD-90
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:34 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Oh, trust me, I am. Many get their millions off the hard work of others, then hide their money in offshore accounts, and give nothng back at all to this nation. They're just siphons, imho, who care only about themselves.

Envy is an ugly thing when it consumes somebody.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:33 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 45):
Envy is an ugly thing when it consumes somebody.

nothing envious about tax cheats or law breakers, if people want to live/work/operate in a country then pay the fucking taxes as mandated by the laws of the land, what stinks is the way rich people think they are above the law because of their wealth.

no surprise there.
 
Pope
Topic Author
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:02 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
why do you give a shit what the government taxes the rich for anyway? Are you filthy rich, either one of you? If that were the case, I'd understand your concern, but you guys bitch and moan about how badly the rich are treated all the time.

I'm not filthy rich but by the Democrat's definition I am rich. Remember that's anyone with an AGI above $75,000. But truth be told, I've made much more than that. What upsets me is the Robin Hood mentality of the liberal movement that demonizes me for being financially successful. I've busted my ass to get where I am. I've taken tremendous entrepreneurial risk and had it paid off. I've gone without in order to ensure my employees have excellent health care, disability insurance and retirement plan. Yet in the eyes of you liberals I'm a tax cheat who gets up in the AM looking to screw the "average Joe".

Well let's be honest, our country has got a lot of lazy workers who expect to be given what the rest of the world busts their ass for. I sickens me to see my hard earned money taken from me to subsidize their existence. I sickens me to see the size of government grow every day. It sickens me to see liberals attempt to blame everyone but the individual for their failures.

At one point the US was the greatest country in the world. If you worked hard, you could succeed. Therefore most people worked hard. At some point we became fat, dumb and happy and lost the desire to work hard (yet still insisted that we maintain the same standard of living).

Life is about choices. How much you study in school, what field you go into, what risks you take, etc. . . You want to ignore the consequences of those choices and then through them back on the rich.

For example, I know you work in the airline industry. As a child I dreamt of being a pilot. But when I studied the economics of what that meant, I decide there was no way I was going to tie my financial well being to that of the airline industry. In retrospect, I believe that choice has been proven right on.

You chose to go into the airline industry and constantly complain about what mgt is doing to you. Now, why should your decision become my burden?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
You take the side of the rich over the Average Joe; you also seem to take the side of corporate American over those who work their asses off for them every day, and make rich people out of those who sit at the top of said corporate ladders.

You make it sound like people who run companies were born in their executive role. That's rarely the case. The richest people in this country grew up middle class or poor and developed massive wealth within one generation. Look at Gates, Buffet and Walton. None of them grew up rich. They busted their asses to get to where they got. I can tell you as an employer, I see two, three or four lazy applicants for every hardworking one I get.

Now let me ask you a question - how many employee's livelihoods depend on the decisions you make. How many paychecks do you sign and are responsible for making sure there's money in the account to cover? Before you lambast the rich, try thinking about the tremendous responsibility it is to run a company. My greatest fear is that if I make the wrong decision, people will lose their jobs. Try going to sleep with that responsibility every night.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:52 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 45):
Envy is an ugly thing when it consumes somebody.

I hold nothing envious for those who make it big in this country, then, out of greed, avoid every possible way to avoid paying a fair share back in taxes. And, no, that doesn't mean a 50% tax rate. If the rate is 20%, and they avoid paying, I still hold them in contempt.

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
I'm not filthy rich but by the Democrat's definition I am rich.

Arrogant presumption on your part.

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
Remember that's anyone with an AGI above $75,000.

I don't consider that as "rich", and neither does anyone I know of, Pope. You might be doing a bit better than most, but rich? I don't think so.

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
What upsets me is the Robin Hood mentality of the liberal movement that demonizes me for being financially successful.

On that, I agree with you. But I'm not attempting to deamonize the rich. I believe all loopholes should be cut out, completely; I believe offshore tax shelters should be put out of reach for anyone; I think the wealthies should pay a fair tax-certainly not 50%, certainly not 40%. Certainly not 30%. But a fair tax.

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
I've taken tremendous entrepreneurial risk and had it paid off. I've gone without in order to ensure my employees have excellent health care, disability insurance and retirement plan. Yet in the eyes of you liberals I'm a tax cheat who gets up in the AM looking to screw the "average Joe".

If that's the case, you are not a tax cheat. Not everyone is. Not even a majority is, I would suspect. But there are people, far, far richer than you, who do cheat, who do not play by the rules. Those are the ones I'm talking about Pope, not someone who plays by the rules, and treats their employees well, as you obviously do.

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
You chose to go into the airline industry and constantly complain about what mgt is doing to you.

Not I. I think we have excellent upper management, and they do a good job in running this airline. And I don't begrudge them their salary, because they earn it. I DO begrudge someone a huge salary who simply destroys a company, and then floats away on a golden parachute of millions of dollars. I chose what I do, and I'm happy being where I am.

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
Try going to sleep with that responsibility every night.

Then that means you take your job seriously, and WANT to play by the rules. For that, I have nothing but respect for you. There are many who don't give a damn about those who work for them, and are willing to make a fortune at the expense of their workers. I worked for one of them for a time-his name was Frank Lorenzo. He destroyed one company, nearly destroyed a second, and sailed away with a nearly $50 million buyout. And he didn't care.

And there are many who don't care, and use their power of wealth to walk all over people. If you're not one of those, then that's terrific. You should be commended. But I'm not referring to you in this. I'm referring to the many who are out there who make more money than you and I could ever imagine, then find ways to cheat and scam and not put in their fair share to move this nation forward.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Pope
Topic Author
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RE: Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:12 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
Arrogant presumption on your part.

That's not a presumption. The DNC has repeatedly supported policies and tax regimes that establish $75,000 as "rich". So is the arrogance mine or that of the DNC and its supporters.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
I don't consider that as "rich", and neither does anyone I know of, Pope. You might be doing a bit better than most, but rich? I don't think so.

Your party's policies disagree with you on that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
On that, I agree with you. But I'm not attempting to deamonize the rich. I believe all loopholes should be cut out, completely; I believe offshore tax shelters should be put out of reach for anyone; I think the wealthies should pay a fair tax-certainly not 50%, certainly not 40%. Certainly not 30%. But a fair tax.

Over 50% of my gross income goes to taxes. How's that fair?

By the way, you know which President closed the most tax-loop holes ever? Your arch enemy Ronald Reagan. He scrapped the 1954 tax code and created a whole new one in 1986.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
If that's the case, you are not a tax cheat. Not everyone is. Not even a majority is, I would suspect. But there are people, far, far richer than you, who do cheat, who do not play by the rules. Those are the ones I'm talking about Pope, not someone who plays by the rules, and treats their employees well, as you obviously do.

The vast majority of people are not tax cheats. It's presumptious of you to generalize the rich as tax cheats.

Now, for someone to use the tax code as its written is hardly being a tax cheat. If the government doesn't like the way the code is being used, they can always amend it. In fact, the vast majority of the complexity of the tax code is an attempt to close tax loopholes.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.

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