jcs17
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Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:34 am

I was watching some news channel this evening and they were doing interviews on the street about what people's number one issues are going into the election. The first ten people said something along the lines of the economy, or gas prices, or Iraq, and/or The War on Terror. Then it came to some early-20s, self-righteous woman (I would prefer to use more colorful language to describe her), and her answer was "the right for an abortion."

I don't think I've ever been that annoyed in a year.

You might know me as being very conservative on these boards, but when it comes to abortion, I can see both sides of the argument. I could truthfully care less, except in mid or late-term and partial-birth situations, where abortion is particularly barbaric. Birth control doesn't bother me, I'm a big fan of it... Anyway...

Going back to my highly annoyed state, I thought about that woman's statement. She is trying to say that having her fetus' brains sucked out by a vacuum is some sort of founding right, first of all. Secondly, it's the most important thing in the US? How narrow-minded a (insert creative words for a woman here) are you really? Does she actually feel that the right to abortion should be something that is celebrated and kept in the public mind!? What a selfish, sorry, and disgusting woman.

I'm sorry for ranting, but this actually really pissed me off.
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AirStairs
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:49 am



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
what people's number one issues are going into the election...her answer was "the right for an abortion."

Lucky for her there ain't much fightin' left to do, she can waltz into her neighborhood's Planned Parenthood for a full suite of abortion options.

Why this is a government issue and not completely governed by the AMA I do not understand in the first place. Yes, I mean, theoretically, while the fetus is inside her she can do what she will, but the existence of common sense is something I have not learned to count on and so would probably not trust her to take care of it in a timely and quasi-humane manner.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:59 am



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
Secondly, it's the most important thing in the US? How narrow-minded a (insert creative words for a woman here) are you really? Does she actually feel that the right to abortion should be something that is celebrated and kept in the public mind!? What a selfish, sorry, and disgusting woman.

I'm sorry for ranting, but this actually really pissed me off.

It pisses me off as well to see abortion remain as a top of the docket issue in the minds of many. Regardless of my thoughts on it, its been 35 years....stare decisis!

However, I am positive you will find more conservatives put priority on the abortion issue, which I suppose is natural, since they would be on the 'losing' end of Roe v. Wade..
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
QXatFAT
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:04 am

The abortion issue will be on my California ballot this year as a proposition.

As for me...I am voting against abortion.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:13 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 3):
The abortion issue will be on my California ballot this year as a proposition.

As for me...I am voting against abortion.

You're not 'voting against abortion'. That is a huge oversimplification of what is actually going on.

Proposition 4, if approved, would not allow an abortion within 48 hours of parental notification in the case of a minor. This will be it's 3rd appearance on the California ballot.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
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N328KF
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:20 pm

The abortion issue really grates my nerves. I don't actually care what people do (unless it is my baby or my baby's baby), but people waste far too much time and energy on this when there are more pressing issues. It's just like gay marriage...I am in general supportive of the concept, but really, getting all bent out of shape over it (especially the anti- folks) when there are bigger fish to fry...

This is why the aliens that rule the universe have not gotten in touch with us yet. Until we get our shit straight and keep worrying about pedantic crap, they'll want nothing to do with us.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
dvk
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:20 pm

Why should this woman's single issue voting offend you any more than the very large group of conservatives who still vote based on that single issue? Voting for the "pro-life" candidate is still the overriding concern of a large bloc of voters, particularly conservative Catholics and other conservative Christians. For many of them, nothing else matters. How are they different from the women who annoyed you, except for being on the other side of the issue?
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
Then it came to some early-20s, self-righteous woman (I would prefer to use more colorful language to describe her), and her answer was "the right for an abortion."

As if this issue affects her daily life more than the economy, war, terrorism, etc. etc. Seriously, how many times does this chick expect to get herself knocked up?

Sounds like she's just an extremely cheap slut to me...
 
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scbriml
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 7):
As if this issue affects her daily life more than the economy, war, terrorism

Two of those three could easily be absent from her daily life.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Two of those three could easily be absent from her daily life.

Well you could parse it much more finely then--gas prices, taxes, healthcare, housing market, inflation, stock market, environment, job market, etc. etc.

I think you have to be a little off if abortion is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of an important issue that affects your life consistently.

Unless you're a slut.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
I don't think I've ever been that annoyed in a year.

Seeing as you seem to be annoyed on here all the time, that's some feet!  Big grin

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
You might know me as being very conservative on these boards

No!! Never even entered my mind!!  Big grin

As for the lady, it's a free country, she can think whatever she wants. We are free to annoy people in the U.S. But, before you go ballistic, Jcs, I think had I seen it, I would have probably reacted somewhat the same way-what with all the problems facing this nation, this lady is concerned only for herself, it seems.
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slider
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:15 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 1):
, I mean, theoretically, while the fetus is inside her she can do what she will,

Well, that's where the argument begins. Because that's nothing theoretical to many.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 2):
Regardless of my thoughts on it, its been 35 years....stare decisis!

But Roe V Wade didn't effectively answer the abortion question.
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:28 pm



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 4):

Proposition 4, if approved, would not allow an abortion within 48 hours of parental notification in the case of a minor. This will be it's 3rd appearance on the California ballot.

And likely lose again.

Quoting Slider (Reply 11):

But Roe V Wade didn't effectively answer the abortion question.

Casey did.
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huskyaviation
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:42 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Casey did.

Actually, not really, and I don't think a lot of people feel particularly comfortable with the "undue burden" test or the "mystery of human life" crap that O'Connor talked about in that opinion.

[Edited 2008-07-22 13:42:59]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:04 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 1):
Why this is a government issue and not completely governed by the AMA I do not understand in the first place. Yes, I mean, theoretically, while the fetus is inside her she can do what she will, but the existence of common sense is something I have not learned to count on and so would probably not trust her to take care of it in a timely and quasi-humane manner.

Because Americans love for their government to dictate morality and behavior while providing absolutely no useful services such as transit, healthcare, or oversight of corporate activities.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:12 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 13):
and I don't think a lot of people feel particularly comfortable with the "undue burden" test or the "mystery of human life" crap that O'Connor talked about in that opinion.

I'm not a fan of the undue burden test either. That said, the precedent as well as the general consensus is in favor of preserving a woman's right to control her body.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
slider
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:18 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
That said, the precedent as well as the general consensus is in favor of preserving a woman's right to control her body.

Actaully, the much longer and nearly eternal precedent is to protect human life.

Abortion as a means of brith control and convenience is a purely modern and Western construct.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:29 am

Isn't it ironic that people who are pro-life are often anti-death penalty? Conversely, the opposite is often true as well.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:37 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 16):


Abortion as a means of brith control and convenience is a purely modern and Western construct.

Riiiight. That is why abortions have existed since before any semblance of modernity existed.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Falcon84
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:41 am



Quoting N328KF (Reply 17):
Isn't it ironic that people who are pro-life are often anti-death penalty?

Actually, it's usually the other way around. Those who are pro-abortion are often against the death penalty, and those who are anti-abortion are more often than not, strong proponents of the death penalty.

I'm against abortion in most cases, and I'm against the death penalty in most cases.
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Pope
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:51 am

While in an ideal world my hope would be that abortion wouldn't exist. But we don't live in an ideal world. Notwithstanding my personal belief that abortion is the killing of a human life, I guess my political position is that abortion should be as Bill Clinton put it: "safe, legal and rare"

That being said, I think that the abortion issue is generally misunderstood by most of the electorate. Ultimately the issue requires a subjective determination of whether a state's interest in protecting unborn life is greater than a woman's interest in her own body. If Roe were overturned, it wouldn't make abortion illegal anywhere. The states, and therefore ultimately the people, would have to pass legislation outlawing the practice within their jurisdiction.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:54 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
I guess my political position is that abortion should be as Bill Clinton put it: "safe, legal and rare"

Reading that almost gives me a stroke, Pope.  Big grin But I do agree with you.
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AirStairs
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:09 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Because Americans love for their government to dictate morality and behavior while providing absolutely no useful services such as transit, healthcare, or oversight of corporate activities.

The government is incapable of providing almost any social service in a productive, efficient, or helpful way and should not attempt it beyond basic infrastructure and a very few others.

Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
Ultimately the issue requires a subjective determination of whether a state's interest in protecting unborn life is greater than a woman's interest in her own body.

This is the determination that I am uncomfortable with the state making. I don't like abortion or the idea of it at all; it is wrought with ethical issues, but the way I see it as a matter of law, as long as something is literally inside your being, don't (or shouldn't) you have complete liberty and jurisdiction over it unless subpoenaed (ie blood, DNA, paternity tests)? It seems that crossing that line would only lead to smoking and drinking bans during pregnancy, etc.
 
Pope
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:11 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 22):
This is the determination that I am uncomfortable with the state making. I don't like abortion or the idea of it at all; it is wrought with ethical issues, but the way I see it as a matter of law, as long as something is literally inside your being, don't (or shouldn't) you have complete liberty and jurisdiction over it unless subpoenaed (ie blood, DNA, paternity tests)? It seems that crossing that line would only lead to smoking and drinking bans during pregnancy, etc.

So you support 3rd trimesters abortion without any restriction. Your position would literally allow a woman on her way to the delivery room to stop on a whim and drive to an abortion clinic. Is that really what you advocate?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
I guess my political position is that abortion should be as Bill Clinton put it: "safe, legal and rare"

I too, completely agree with that
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AirStairs
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:42 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 24):

So you support 3rd trimesters abortion without any restriction. Your position would literally allow a woman on her way to the delivery room to stop on a whim and drive to an abortion clinic. Is that really what you advocate?

Yes, in THEORY, the scenario you described would fit my definition of what the government's role should and should not be, although even then, it is hard to draw a solid line because to my understanding, a baby is partially removed before its cranial contents are vacuumed out, so defining "born" would only bring up further and more frivolous arguments.

But no, in PRACTICE, I am aware that the ideal extension of liberty and personal choice (in this case) is not pragmatic or suitable and brings to rise too many variables to be effective as policy. It also does not promote what I would hope to be some kind of cultural value for the preservation of life, although I do know that values are not and need not be universally held.

This is why I pointed to the fact that abortion is a much more complicated issue than one that can be reduced to a few sentences. Even "safe, legal and rare" fails to identify any kind of definitive or philosophical framework for a policy.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:42 am

Wish it was the only issue. Then I could just vote Democratic and not even think about it. Of course there actually are other issues, most of them far more important.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 2):
I am positive you will find more conservatives put priority on the abortion issue

Oh, count on that! The email I get from ultra Republican friends is full of self-righteous condemnation of it. It astonishes me to see such religious sentiments (complete with clip art of a blue-eyed Jesus) from three men who, from my personal knowledge, have not set foot inside a church except for a wedding or funeral in fifty damn years.

To state the obvious, I too am a conservative, but I have to part company with them over what I see as a religious matter - including the fact that if you don't have the religion you don't have the problem.

Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
"safe, legal and rare"

I would add "not Government funded" and that is where I seem to part with my liberal friends.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Pope
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:47 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 26):
Yes, in THEORY, the scenario you described would fit my definition of what the government's role should and should not be, although even then, it is hard to draw a solid line because to my understanding, a baby is partially removed before its cranial contents are vacuumed out, so defining "born" would only bring up further and more frivolous arguments.

It seems to me that your argument ignores the fact that an unborn baby is alive. Therefore, the state has just as much of an interest in protecting that life from undue harm as it does as protecting a 1 sec old baby from cold blooded murder.

If your response is that the unborn fetus is not alive, please define life.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:47 am



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):

I would add "not Government funded" and that is where I seem to part with my liberal friends.

Well, depends on how you look at it. I think all health care should be government funded, which includes abortions.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
SlamClick
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:50 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
I think all health care should be government funded, which includes abortions

Which is why I part company with most liberals. I do not believe that it shoud and would prefer to die from the next major disease to find me than to have my fellow Americans shackled with such a colossal reverse-Robin Hood scam as that.

But ask our resident liberal-doc about how he wants the government to take tax money away from all of us and give it to him.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:56 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
all health care should be government funded, which includes abortions

How about liposuction, boob jobs, nose jobs, botox, viagra etc. etc. If you think the taxpayers should pay for those for whoever wants them I don't want them, so how about I get an equivalent amount of cash instead?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
AirStairs
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 28):
It seems to me that your argument ignores the fact that an unborn baby is alive. Therefore, the state has just as much of an interest in protecting that life from undue harm as it does as protecting a 1 sec old baby from cold blooded murder.

To me it is still not an issue of when "life" may begin: I know that fetuses are alive, but do not see theoretically how any choice involving the internal body or contents thereof can be left to the government over that specific individual.

I would think that we are all really at the mercy of our mothers (part of the value of the mother-child relationship) and while I, PERSONALLY think a fetus deserves respect, care, and a birth, I can't see how it would be the state's role over the mother's to extend that protection.
 
Pope
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:59 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 32):
To me it is still not an issue of when "life" may begin: I know that fetuses are alive, but do not see theoretically how any choice involving the internal body or contents thereof can be left to the government over that specific individual.

If you admit the fetus is alive how is it not entitled to protection under our Constitution?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:04 am



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):

How about liposuction, boob jobs, nose jobs, botox, viagra etc. etc. If you think the taxpayers should pay for those for whoever wants them I don't want them, so how about I get an equivalent amount of cash instead?

There is a big difference between an abortion and plastic surgery.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 30):
I do not believe that it shoud and would prefer to die from the next major disease to find me than to have my fellow Americans shackled with such a colossal reverse-Robin Hood scam as that.

I'm really not getting that. Perhaps if you rephrase.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Flighty
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:08 am



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
Secondly, it's the most important thing in the US?

Certainly, for many Christian soldier types, it is the most important thing in the US, yes.

This woman was merely responding to a monumental effort by grassroots religious organizations to modify US laws and the US Constitution to take rights away from women. She was being "conservative" in the sense that she wants the status quo.

Radical zealots are plotting to use the Supreme Court, via a Republican presidency, to execute this modification of American laws, American medicine and American culture. She is right that it is a major issue.
 
AirStairs
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 33):
If you admit the fetus is alive how is it not entitled to protection under our Constitution?

Because I place a higher value on the individual's right to govern the inner workings of his or her body more than the state's ability to intervene. Whether you view it as a legality or not, a fetus is at the mercy of its carrier: we can encourage her to make prudent and responsible choices, even provide incentives for adoption. But as a self-determining being she makes the call on what lies inside her body.
 
Pope
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:22 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 36):
Because I place a higher value on the individual's right to govern the inner workings of his or her body more than the state's ability to intervene.

I certainly respect your right to that opinion. But under our constitutional framework, the decision about whose rights are more important is clearly within the realm of state powers.

The fundamental flaw in the traditional pro-choice argument is that the fetus is not alive. As soon as you admit that it is you concede that the state has an interest in protecting it's life. Now each state is free to determine whether the mother's interest in control over her body is greater than the fetus' right to life. Pro-choicers want to ignore the state's right to protect life and focus only on the rights of the mother. Yet there is an intellectual, legal and moral disconnect between the arbitrary decision to the absolute protection of one life at the destruction of the other.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:29 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 37):
But under our constitutional framework, the decision about whose rights are more important is clearly within the realm of state powers.

No it isn't. The Supreme Court has determined this and they are the ones who decide what law governs.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Pope
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:32 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):

No it isn't. The Supreme Court has determined this and they are the ones who decide what law governs.

Go back and read what we've written. This exchange pre-supposes Roe was overturned thereby returning the issue to the states.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
jcs17
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):

Seeing as you seem to be annoyed on here all the time, that's some feet!

You, of all people, actually telling me I'm irritable is some feat as well.  Smile

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):

Certainly, for many Christian soldier types, it is the most important thing in the US, yes.

Radical zealots are plotting to use the Supreme Court, via a Republican presidency, to execute this modification of American laws, American medicine and American culture. She is right that it is a major issue.

I acknowledge that. However, calling them religious zealots is bit much, no? When I think of a religious zealot, my mind drifts to a magical, happy place called Saudi Arabia... not Baptist Church-going America. The Middle Eastern variety of zealot is the one I worry about at night, not some Bible-thumper who wants to ban abortion... and I think anyone who convinces themselves otherwise is either extremely selfish or diluted. American medicine? American culture? C'mon friend, put away that tinfoil hat. If abortion was that important an issue to Republicans, it would be gone already. Unfortunately, we have more pressing issues on our plate, such as the economy, the War on Terror, etc.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
AirStairs
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 37):
I certainly respect your right to that opinion. But under our constitutional framework, the decision about whose rights are more important is clearly within the realm of state powers.

In what part? It has been a while since AP US History, but I am just curious as skimming over it I don't find much. It might be implicit, but I don't find where it offers the states the authority to weigh the rights of the two.
 
AirStairs
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:44 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
Go back and read what we've written. This exchange pre-supposes Roe was overturned thereby returning the issue to the states.

I suppose my argument would be the same whether or not the laws were state or federal. I philosophically disagree with their ability to figuratively "reach inside" a body and make a value judgment on what is done with or inside it, abortion or otherwise.

I recognize that this is not a pragmatic solution because of the "fuzzy lines" and variables that arise--I think we know them well enough that they don't need to be itemized here. In principle and some degree of practice, though, I am for anything that gets the state or Fed hands out of it.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:50 am



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 41):
If abortion was that important an issue to Republicans, it would be gone already.

 Confused
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N328KF
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:58 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
Actually, it's usually the other way around. Those who are pro-abortion are often against the death penalty, and those who are anti-abortion are more often than not, strong proponents of the death penalty.

This is actually what I meant. Whoops.  Wink
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
QXatFAT
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:18 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
Actually, it's usually the other way around. Those who are pro-abortion are often against the death penalty, and those who are anti-abortion are more often than not, strong proponents of the death penalty.

 checkmark 

More times then not it is Christians as well that are the pro-life and for the death penalty. Mainly this is the case because of capital punishment in the Bible as well as a the human inside of the stomach being able to have a chance to live.

Good point though Falcon. With me being a Christian, I have always wondered why a lot of people in my Christian faith can not come to a solid answer on this.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
Flighty
Posts: 7716
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:26 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 41):
magical, happy place called Saudi Arabia... not Baptist Church-going America.

What's the difference? Fundamentalist Christian clerics are just as violent as fundamentalist Muslim clerics.

I do not fear Islam any more than I fear creationist Bible believers who believe Earth is less than 10,000 years old, who have A-bombs and B-52s. That to me is a recipe for all manner of bad dreams, some of them real.
 
Pope
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 40):
In what part? It has been a while since AP US History, but I am just curious as skimming over it I don't find much. It might be implicit, but I don't find where it offers the states the authority to weigh the rights of the two.

Are you saying that the power to prevent murder is not a power that a state possess?

If I understand your arguments correctly, you have admitted that abortion is the killing of a human life. However, you have argued that because of the competing interest of the mother, that killing should be permitted. While the competing interest approach is certainly valid, doesn't it need to be tempered by other considerations? For example post viability the mother's life is no longer necessary for survival. Therefore, since abortion results in the certain killing of life and delivery does not, why should only the mother's interest be considered. Does the fetus not have any constitutional rights or are they limited by the rights of the mother?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
baroque
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:52 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):
What's the difference? Fundamentalist Christian clerics are just as violent as fundamentalist Muslim clerics.

I do not fear Islam any more than I fear creationist Bible believers who believe Earth is less than 10,000 years old, who have A-bombs and B-52s. That to me is a recipe for all manner of bad dreams, some of them real.

Indeed is not strong enough.

Very interesting attitudes in some of the other posts. One thing I have learned (again it seems) is that parthenogenesis must be quite common in the US.  biting   covereyes 
 
N1120A
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RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:09 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
This exchange pre-supposes Roe was overturned thereby returning the issue to the states.

Casey would be the case that they would have to overturn.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Abortion As An Election Issue

Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:45 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 49):
Casey would be the case that they would have to overturn.

It would have to be both, I think--Casey established the standard to protect a woman's right to receive an abortion, but Roe established the constitutional right itself. I don't think overturning Casey alone would be sufficient to reverse the whole line of abortion jurisprudence.

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