jcs17
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Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:19 pm

http://starbulletin.com/2008/07/28/news/story05.html

Obama notes 'tragic' US past

Quote:
CHICAGO » Sen. Barack Obama, speaking to a gathering of minority journalists yesterday, stopped short of endorsing an official U.S. apology to American Indians but said the country should acknowledge its history of poor treatment of certain ethnic groups.

"There's no doubt that when it comes to our treatment of Native Americans as well as other persons of color in this country, we've got some very sad and difficult things to account for," Obama told hundreds of attendees of UNITY '08, a convention of four minority journalism associations.

The Hawaii-born senator, who has told local reporters that he supports the federal recognition bill for native Hawaiians drafted by U.S. Sen. Daniel Akaka, noted other ethnic groups but did not mention native Hawaiians when answering a question about his thoughts on a formal U.S. apology to American Indians.



Quote:
"I consistently believe that when it comes to whether it's Native Americans or African-American issues or reparations, the most important thing for the U.S. government to do is not just offer words, but offer deeds."

As usual when it comes to liberal Democrats, they are continually needing to apologize for America, and they are blatantly embarrassed by it. Liberals simply aren't proud of what the nation has achieved. They believe that everyone is a victim, no matter how long ago the injustice occurred.

As for that last quote, that'll go over very well. Reparations? Who the hell does he think he is? Jesse Jackson?

Anyway, Liberals, continue to drink the Kool-Aid while its cold.
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waterpolodan
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:34 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):

As usual when it comes to liberal Democrats, they are continually needing to apologize for America, and they are blatantly embarrassed by it. Liberals simply aren't proud of what the nation has achieved.

So he makes a reasonable statement about the culpability of the US government in the treatment of native americans and slaves, and you think that he isn't proud of anything this country has achieved? Talk about overblown. Tell me this, are you proud of our history of slavery and the pathetic way that we dealt with native americans in the 19th century? Of course not, nobody is, and although I completely disagree with the idea of reparations, I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that we as a nation did wrong in our treatment of these people. You can't just gloss over the past and pretend that we've only ever done wonderful things as a nation, that's burying your head in a stinking pile of ignorance. Yes, these injustices occurred generations and generations ago, which makes actual payments totally inappropriate, but if these groups are seeking a formal apology, what's wrong with giving them one?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:38 pm

"As usual when it comes to liberal Democrats, they are continually needing to apologize for America, and they are blatantly embarrassed by it. Liberals simply aren't proud of what the nation has achieved. They believe that everyone is a victim, no matter how long ago the injustice occurred."

Funny though, it was Reagan who apologized to the Japanese Americans who were imprisoned during WWII. Last time I checked he was not a liberal nor a Democrat.
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D L X
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:38 pm

It takes a special kind of jerk to decry someone lauding an apology for slavery and jim crow.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:40 pm

Quote function not working for some reason, so here goes:

You can't just gloss over the past and pretend that we've only ever done wonderful things as a nation, that's burying your head in a stinking pile of ignorance.

I agree, however - at some point can't the past be left as the past, or are we as Americans destined to forever flog ourselves over something that none of us had anything to do with?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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slider
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:44 pm

No one’s glossing over the past, and no one denies that our own past isn’t spotless.

What I detest and am tired of (and JCS nails this) is the continued self-inflicted paralyzing guilt that somehow everything we stand for is screwed up because of some of these events of the past.

When do the sins of the past go away? How long do we, my generation and even my kids’ generation(s) have to pay the price for it?

Moreover, what Obama doesn’t mention is that we’re past it. He’s a presidential nominee. If he succeeds, he poses the single greatest threat to the status quo for blacks in this country. No other crutches, no other places to hide, no other bogeymen to blame. Time to move on.

If Obama had any integrity, he’d shut his piehole about this stuff and listen to a guy like Thomas Sowell, or have Dr. Walter Williams be an economic adviser. Start bringing other successful blacks into the tent instead of decrying the fact the tent isn’t big enough. And sack up and tell Je$$e Jack$on that he DOESN’T accept his apology! Tell him to STFU and get onboard with the “change” (the mystical word that makes everything rosy!) that’s coming. He could stand in the gap and instead he’s standing with his cheese in the wind on this.
 
D L X
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:59 pm

EA CO AS says: I agree, however - at some point can't the past be left as the past, or are we as Americans destined to forever flog ourselves over something that none of us had anything to do with?

Here's the problem with that logic: it says in the future, we can cause harms, some utterly reprehensible, but we can escape liability by simply not doing anything about it until the only ones that could do something about it were not directly responsible for it. You know, kind of the same way we are racking up a huge national debt. Right? I'm not responsible for the debt that the WW2 generation racked up, so why should I have to pay it?
 
mt99
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:02 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
When do the sins of the past go away? How long do we, my generation and even my kids’ generation(s) have to pay the price for it?

If you are catholic never..

Just playing devils advocate here... how long should Germany apologize to the Jews?
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stlgph
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:40 pm

his words are no different than all kinds of stuff we've been hearing from scores of Presidents and politicians, both sides of the fence.

excitement over this is ... stupid.
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redflyer
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:58 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
Funny though, it was Reagan who apologized to the Japanese Americans who were imprisoned during WWII. Last time I checked he was not a liberal nor a Democrat.

Reagan apologized when the generation of both the victims and the oppressors were still alive. A very timely and effective apology. However, what Barrack Hussein Obama and others of his ilk are suggesting is that we apologize for certain things that happened generations ago. Frankly, if we are going to do that then I suggest we have certain European nations jump on the band wagon because it was actually their policies during our Colonial era that instigated the subjugation and slaughter of millions of natives as well as the implementation of slavery in the New World.
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Klaus
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:07 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
When do the sins of the past go away?

They don't. Ever.

What kind of people you are simply shows in how you're dealing with that fact.

If you don't want to be "inconvenienced" by reminders of the less savoury parts of your collective past, the only way to get there is to openly confront the past and make any further reminders redundant.

Positives and negatives don't simply "even out" arithmetically with positive achievements in other areas.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:14 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
How long do we, my generation and even my kids’ generation(s) have to pay the price for it?

To whom, and on whose behalf, is one to issue an apology? The ones who deserve the apology are likely already dead, with the exception of some survivors of more recent events, and the ones who should be issuing the apology are either already dead, refuse to apologize, or are in prison.

Nothing wrong with expressing personal sympathies, but the idea that one can apologize for others is silly and meaningless at best.

[Edited 2008-07-30 10:17:05]
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:25 pm

For some reason the quote function won't work in this thread.
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:41 pm

Well, it certainly isn't surprising since he has no connection to slavery except that maybe his white lineage(which he dumps on, ala his grandmother) may have been involved in slave trade. His father is Kenyan and wasn't a slave or a decendant of a slave. Obama said previously he was against repairations, but since it's obvious he's willing to change his position in order to gain support or votes.

As RedFlyer said, there are no slave survivors left, where the interned Japanese Americans were. And Native Americans were given their reservations for which gambling is their ongoing repairations.

This apology is nothing more than a campaign to open the door for repairations. He's not saying it, but that's left to the lawyers.
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AGM100
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:46 pm

Man, I cant listen to this guy talk anymore ... their must be bubble in his Wernicke . Why all the stammering and stuttering , pausing and I, I ,I, I ,I .. believe the legacy of a a a a a slavrey .. pause.. uh uh uh uh should be better .. uh uh uh repaired by good inercity schools and jobs for everyone...

Not on the link attached but I heard the audio version this moring.

Wow , good luck.
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D L X
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 pm

I love how people like AGM100 prefer people that talk in soundbites as opposed to people who think when they speak.
 
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
I'm not responsible for the debt that the WW2 generation racked up, so why should I have to pay it?

You don't... None of it has been paid thus far in your lifetime, and the way things are going, none of it will be paid during any of our lifetimes...  Cool
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:57 pm

For Obama supporters, you're in fabulous company
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dtwclipper
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:06 pm

"Reagan apologized when the generation of both the victims and the oppressors were still alive"

You missed my point.

The thread starter said
"As usual when it comes to liberal Democrats, they are continually needing to apologize for America, and they are blatantly embarrassed by it. Liberals simply aren't proud of what the nation has achieved. They believe that everyone is a victim, no matter how long ago the injustice occurred."

This is just horse hockey. I pointed out a clear example of a GOP president making amends for a part of our history, so it is not just Liberal Democrats who feel the need to look at our selves and see that all was/is not perfect. It had nothing to do with the victims being alive or not, that was just the way you decided to twist the story.
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slider
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:07 pm

Klaus- it has nothing to do with my being “inconvenienced,” it has everything to do with the fact that we’re trying to move forward very encumbered. I think as a German, you know this all too well and the generational self-flagellation that Germany has done about the Holocaust and WWII. Making denying the Holocaust a crime in fact. And the natural zesty proud German nationalism has been totally neutered out of this self-inflicted institutional guilt you have. It’s paralyzing really.

Now contrast that with slavery in the USA. It is 2008 by my calendar. And we’re still discussing ludicrous things like reparations? Like apologies? For what? Do words make it alright? OK, if so, then I’m sorry. Who’s happy with that?

Do you get my point? I’m taking it to a ridiculous extreme to show how ridiculous the concept is. If we teach history appropriately, and inculcate in our children a proud sense of who we are, while fully acknowledging the warts of the past, and instill a voracious sense of critical thinking and historical appreciation, these mindless and nonsensical gestures will be dismissed for the insanity that they are.
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:10 pm

I dont prefer sound bites , and I personally agree with Sen Obama's message about reparations . Just not sure how some people say that he is such a great orator .. I dont see it and his message gets lost in his speaking style.

You know it may be time for the Sen to give a speech about how great America is. Sure we are like any other nation , we have our painful sins.. but we are also a nation who tries to fix its problems.
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Platypus
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:12 pm

Obama should apologize profusely for his friend, mentor, Pastor of 20 years that's 2 decades people for the outrageous actions of Rev. Wright. However, Obama's actions suggest he sees eye to eye with Rev Wright! Obama expresses these views in a more subtle and conniving manner.

Obama has no problem putting down Amrica, yet condones Rev. Wright! Great judgement!  sarcastic 

See video " God Damn America" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ

Cheerio

P.S. Obama's one to talk!
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dragon6172
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:15 pm

Honestly I think all these formal apologies can fall in line with the baseball steroid hearings. Are there not more pressing matters that our elected officials can debate and come up with solutions for? It seems that to them, this is "working", or "accomplishing" something worthwhile. NO! Balancing a budget, winning a war, rebuilding our infrastructure, fixing health care. How about a little progress in these areas.

I guess the only thing congress can agree on is that our ancestors did some bad things, and that we are sorry. Super. Give everyone their tax money back and we will all buy some Hallmark cards and send our apologies. Save everyone a few thousand dollars, maybe Americans can use that money to fix their debt and pay for gas.
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redflyer
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
You missed my point.

No I didn't.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
I pointed out a clear example of a GOP president making amends for a part of our history, so it is not just Liberal Democrats who feel the need to look at our selves and see that all was/is not perfect.

There's a huge difference between making amends when the victims are still alive and making amends when they have long ago turned to dust.

By the way, I don't believe Reagan pushed for the reparations to the victims of the WW2 internment camps. I think all he did was sign the bill that was initiated and passed by the Democrat-controlled congress of the time.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 22):
Honestly I think all these formal apologies can fall in line with the baseball steroid hearings.

 checkmark 

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 22):
Are there not more pressing matters that our elected officials can debate and come up with solutions for?

Unfortunately, this proposal smells of money to those who are descendants of the victims. And as usual, the liberal thinking is that money - government money - is the answer to all that ails society.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:49 pm

Quote function still isn't working for me.


Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
You missed my point.

No I didn't.

I think you did, but that is a matter of opinion.



"By the way, I don't believe Reagan pushed for the reparations to the victims of the WW2 internment camps. I think all he did was sign the bill that was initiated and passed by the Democrat-controlled congress of the time. "

And he didn't veto it why again?

Why can't you people just admit that the OP's opening about Liberal Democrats hating America was B.S. flamebait and just move on.

It's hard being a "ditto head" isn't it?
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redflyer
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:06 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 24):
[quoting RedFlyer]By the way, I don't believe Reagan pushed for the reparations to the victims of the WW2 internment camps. I think all he did was sign the bill that was initiated and passed by the Democrat-controlled congress of the time.

And he didn't veto it why again?

Perhaps political expediency knowing with a Democratic-controlled Congress his veto would be overridden (just a guess)? Or maybe because he lived through it, saw the injustice first-hand, and knew that the victims were still alive and felt an obligation to do what he could. And that point in particular goes to the heart of this debate: I have no issues with making amends with past injustices as long as the purpose is clear and the reparations are tangible. What Barrack Hussein Obama and others like him propose to do is something that is intangible - where is the line drawn on injustices that were perpetrated centuries ago? Who is included in the class of "victims"? Which descendants are to be included - direct, indirect, relatives of either or both? How do you quantify the "injustice" for those descendants that are living? What if a descendant is currently living with a household income that is above the median average for U.S. households? Obviously those particular descendants are no worse off for what their ancestors suffered. I could go on, but you get the point.
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Platypus
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:07 pm

Excuse me,
But didn't over 600,00 Americans die because of the Civil War? Yes! Over 350,000 union and 260,000 Confederate soldiers died as a result to end slavery! What more is needed?

Enough with this $hit! There are more important things to worry about, like the Terrorists trying to kill us. This crap coming from Obama's mouth, his Rev too, only backs up extremists unfounded feelings regarding America! Idiot!


Cheerio

http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm

The Price in Blood!
Casualties in the Civil War

At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000. The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.
Don't Block the Shot
 
mt99
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:15 pm



Quoting Platypus (Reply 26):
Terrorists trying to kill us.

Good job Karl Rove, Good job...
Step into my office, baby
 
dvk
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:48 pm

The rampant paranoia of some of the right wingers is boundless. Some of you just need to give it a rest, and stop with the gross exaggeration.  ziplip 
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
sv7887
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:57 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 27):
Quoting Platypus (Reply 26):
Terrorists trying to kill us.

Good job Karl Rove, Good job...

Ummm have you noticed the two really tall buildings that are missing in New York City lately? How about a few US Embassies in Africa too?

Quoting Dvk (Reply 28):
The rampant paranoia of some of the right wingers is boundless. Some of you just need to give it a rest, and stop with the gross exaggeration. ziplip

Countered by the paranoia from the left that the government is interested in watching everything you do, throwing you into Gitmo, and that GWB is Satan who created Katrina, forced idiots to buy homes they couldn't afford, and god knows what else.


Kettle calling pot black..
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:05 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 27):
Ummm have you noticed the two really tall buildings that are missing in New York City lately? How about a few US Embassies in Africa too?

Well, they haven't heard about 9/11 yet. We'll see him change his tune when terrorist start blowing up buildings in Olso or Stavanger.
Made from jets!
 
dvk
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:13 pm

The quote feature wouldn't work for some reason, but Sv7887, those are YOUR words, and a confirmatory example of what I was referring to. I don't think W is Satan; he's just an incompetent boob.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
sv7887
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting Dvk (Reply 31):
Sv7887, those are YOUR words, and a confirmatory example of what I was referring to. I don't think W is Satan; he's just an incompetent boob.

I was just repeating the words of many on A.net and the kind of crap I listen to every day..
I don't have a problem with someone finding Bush incompetent, because he is, but making him a cartoon villain is pretty inaccurate.
 
bok269
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:21 am

In my mind, the time comes to move on once the effects of our actions are no longer visible. Today, a large portion of the Native American population lives in poverty (and many are dealing with other issues such as substance abuse and lack of health insurance). Thus, the issue is still relevant.
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AirStairs
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:59 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 33):
In my mind, the time comes to move on once the effects of our actions are no longer visible. Today, a large portion of the Native American population lives in poverty (and many are dealing with other issues such as substance abuse and lack of health insurance). Thus, the issue is still relevant.

How can we quantify which parts of the current native American social and economic issues are a direct result of discriminatory government action? The only thing we can do for them is to make absolutely sure that they playing field is level in every practical way. I am no expert on reservations and their infrastructure, but an example would be ensuring that schools and public hospitals are equally funded (this may be entirely out of federal jurisdiction, I have no idea.) Making health counseling and education as equally available.

If it is the case that native American social services are entirely self-funded...well, you simply have to come to grips with the reality that rural and isolated living is probably not going to earn you material prosperity in this society. If they insist on being autonomous, I would insist that they accept those parameters.

BUT I have a bone to pick with the argument that native Americans are put at an inherent disadvantage by the government when it comes to the level of poverty, health insurance coverage, obesity and alcoholism in some tribes. These are all results of personal decisions made in the context of different cultural norms; a lot of it stems from choosing to live in remote and rural areas. As far as I know, American indians are not restricted in their movement between the reservation and the rest of the country. It is beyond me why something like low health coverage is somehow made into an ethnic issue: it simply isn't.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
Positives and negatives don't simply "even out" arithmetically with positive achievements in other areas.

Just like "positives" (reparations) don't simply "even out" negatives (past injustice). An example from my own life, today:

I was talking to a fellow no older than 22 who lives in the urban area. He was stressed to make ends meet: He faced having to find a higher-paying job or more hours (he works part-time) to tie up the school bills. Today, he gladly declared that his mother "found my CIB [Certificate of Indian Blood], so I don't need a job anymore." This kid has not faced a lick of ethnic injustice in his life (I couldn't even determine his ethnicity by looking at him) and got enough free money to bump him over and allow him to go to school without contributing to what his family pays. What does that equal?

I am all for as much education for as many people as possible, but I fail to see the justice in that when I am faced with a 20% interest rate or cold hard cash (according to FAFSA, I need not apply).
 
RJdxer
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:26 am

I say pay them. Why not. Pay them and apologize. Then it's done and it can't be brought up again, ever. Wonder what the justice brothers would do for a living then?
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BN747
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:08 am

Now I understand why Rush Limbaugh received a $400 million dollar contract extension...because he has an audience out there who will allow themselves to FOREVER be victims of their own history. In other words, they're suckers for allowing real occurrences to be used as devices of division. This is the 'perfect' example.

You people who say 'you had nothing to do with it' .. also had nothing to with the signing of the Declaration of Independence either.. (or the fight for it). Yet you celebrate the heck out it while beaming with national pride. That signing occurred over a series of weeks. The obliteration of American Indians and the wholesale parting of Africa and it's peoples dragged and forced into free labor to berich and create this 'the most powerful nation ever'..occurred over several hundred years followed by years of government sanctioned oppression... and all you people can say is 'I had nothing to with it and it ought be forgotten'??? That's pure insanity. When you advocate 'history (no matter how uncolorful) to be forgotten or relegate it as 'that was a long time ago'.. then you ABSOLUTELY MUST do the same with the Declaration of Independence or any other cheerful event.. because both (Freedom & Slavery) are forever linked with their own existence and importance to the establishment of this nation..


Although you had nothing to do it, IT is a part of your history...whether you like that part of it or not!

You can celebrate and be proud of segments of your history BUT you can NOT disown and run away from other parts of your history. It stands out like a glow-stick when you try to 'deny' the unsavory part of your history..it uncloaks you as a fraud about a factual history you either accept in whole or disown entirely. US History cannot be parceled out like sprinkled vs cream-filled donuts. Unfortunately, too many teachers teach it in such fashion..skipping over the bad/painful and lingering on the 'good/favorable'. Many here are products of those teachings.

There are parts of history that are fun to talk about..


There are parts of history that are NOT fun to talk about.. this is one of those parts.

So why do some people get defensive about this subject and start attacking it? Because it makes them uncomfortable. So they attack instead of trying delve deeper into what it means to others more affected by such history than themselves. We're all affected by OUR history to some degree.. some more than others. And that's where the division comes into play.

Our entire history is laced with very power racial overtones. And this coming national election is going to be a test to where we stand as a nation on the issue of race. We already know by admissions via polling some Americans will not vote for Obama or any other black to be Prez of the US merely based on skin color. But how many? We are about to find out how big that number truly is. I personally don't think it's as big as it was 20 years ago, because younger people 'accept American's painful segments of US history' better than most adults. They are better informed because 'they were/are not afraid to look at it and examine it from every possible angle (and doing so with the understanding they had absolutely nothing to do with such past -- yet they embrace it as their national history) .

The 'I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' types here...are not like them, they are generally those who've skimmed over the 'painful parts' of history while reading/studying the 'delightful' parts over and over again and can do it day and night til the end of time... while never donating such intensity to our nations darkess moments. Therefore these are the prime candidates for a Rush Limbaugh moment, to use what they don't know about history to be used against them as they buy into the 'why are we discussing this? It's the past! Slavery ended years ago! and other shallow and mindless arguments.

I've witnessed here too many times the same "I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' types" reminding the Germans what their nation engaged in 60+ years ago, and amazingly, the Germans don't punk out and become 'I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' s.

I've witnessed here as well the same 'I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' types remind the French and other Europeans members that it was the USA that saved their bacon in WWII (and other actions)...

...but you've NEVER heard the 'I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' types (on this issue) say with regard to WWI and WWII - "well, I had nothing to do with saving Europe/England/France whatever..' .. it IMMEDIATELY becomes 'Yeah, WE saved your ass'.. suddenly in history it becomes 'WE'..but on the slavery/Indian annihilation it comes ' 'I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' .. you simply can't be more hypocritical than that. So where do you stand on your claim of 'American History'? .. yeah, you Americans-



BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
OlegShv
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:24 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):

 checkmark 

Excellent post, BN747. Every nation has low and high points in history. If low points will be downplayed in the classrooms and eventually forgotten, then these parts will likely happen again.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:52 am

I think there are far too many Americans who still have not come to terms with some of the not-so-nice things we've had in our past: the wars against the Native Americans; slavery; rounding up Americans of Japanese ancestery and putting them in camps during WWII. There are more, to be sure.

HOWEVER, I do not believe-with one exception-that any more apologizing need be done. Why? Simply because, with one exception, all those who were victims of these terrible things, are all dead. I don't seem a need to apologize to their posterity, in any way, shape or form.

That one exception is the Japanese-Americans, many of whom are still alive, and who had to endure the humiliation of being locked up by their own country for no reason except for the color of their skin. They deserve an apology, and have gotten it, and I think that's approproate.

At the same time, we still have PC freaks out there, who want the U.S. not only to apologize for everything under the sun, but want today's government, and today's citizens, to feel shamed and humiliated by the sins of their forefathers-and on top of that, want $$$ to go to the descendants of those who were wronged. And I disagree with that.

We should acknowledge that we've never been perfect, and that we have some dark moments in our past-just as we acknowledge all the positive things this nation has done for it's people and for the world over the last 2-plus centuries. But no other apologies are necessary.
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AirStairs
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:37 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
Although you had nothing to do it, IT is a part of your history...whether you like that part of it or not!



Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
You can celebrate and be proud of segments of your history BUT you can NOT disown and run away from other parts of your history.

Why do you try to characterize the opposing argument like that? I've not read one person in this discussion try to deny or negate that several state governments condoned slavery and that native American tribes were marginalized increasingly as the government moved westward. Yes, the government that represents I, as a white male, did this. That same government has since abandoned slavery and Jim Crow practices, violence against native tribes and Japanese internment and since that time has declared all citizens equal and protected from discrimination with respect to their ethnicity.

What further do you propose that I do about it? Can you logically justify giving preferential treatment and monetary rewards to individuals that were almost certainly not subject to the discriminatory government policy? The only way that reparations could even be considered are if they are paid only once, immediately upon the reversal and only in the amount that will replace the property destroyed, and accompanied by a formal admission of wrongdoing. It is now too late to accurately quantify what part of the lingering socioeconomic difficulties are causally related to former government policy.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
[Younger people] are better informed because 'they were/are not afraid to look at it and examine it from every possible angle (and doing so with the understanding they had absolutely nothing to do with such past -- yet they embrace it as their national history) .

Uhh, maybe it has more to do with the fact that younger Americans were not raised in a system that both told and showed them explicitly that blacks were not eligible for social interaction or public leadership?
 
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:39 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):

That one exception is the Japanese-Americans, many of whom are still alive, and who had to endure the humiliation of being locked up by their own country for no reason except for the color of their skin.

And the black Americans who've been denied due process, cheated, systematically eliminated from pursuit of the American dream from that same WWII era thru the 50's 60s and who's number far exceed those of the interred Japanese.. do not deserve an apology from a government that sanctioned their disenfranchisement?

As much as you like to paint yourself as 'a lover of history'..it completely escapes me how you cannot make the link between US BAD History to what you love soooo much US FAVORABLE history. Making that link is not enough, 'understanding that BAD HISTORY has cast a pall that reaches deep into this 21st Century. It reaches into the very heart of this very special Presidential Election looming ahead. If that BAD History were not so far reaching, so stinging...this 2008 Election would be no different from 1960, 1968, 1976, etc...(I'd say 2000, 2004 but that's a whole seperate issue).

The Armenian Genocide incident is a perfect of when you 'let the past be the past' when a people has been don't wrong. The wronged party is hellbent on keeping it alive and never to you forget about. YOU don't live in a country where YOUR ancestors have been systematically and legally wronged with followup consequences (leading up to recent times). So your inability to want to, try to understand those who have is loud and clear. In other words, should you experience a pain so great..don't for a minute expect someone who hasn't experienced the same to have sympathy, empathy or understanding of your situation, past, present or future.

The US wrongs on the subject are on a galactic scale, it's far larger than the Japanese Interment. 5 years vs 300+ years..as I said it's consequences reach right into the heart of this coming election. So for you to dismiss it so easily.. you're not much different than the ''I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' types.

To appreciate history as you say you do, is a testimonial to your affinity to the human events on which history stands. If your are endeared to that, then you to, MUST by your, honor the pain and suffering by a people living this very day whose 'history' is shown on their face every time you see them..that's right, their skin color. And that skin color cannot be separated from a very horrendous past. Did that person suffer what his deceased ancestors suffer? Of course not. But has he suffered from a condition created and based on what happened to his ancestors..odds are he very well.. he might have. You don't know, you can't be sure. Does his thoughts on past and the present (apology/no apology) matter too? A person who appreciates history ponders about those outside his own scope/views/experiences. Now I could be wrong you could be one of those history buffs who likes to argue/debate war generals, strategies, political figures, events..but not give a thought of the effects on the common people/masses caught and subjected to the eventual outcome. Basically, a superficial amateur historian.

Blacks, for the most part hate discussing their painful history because it's it is so painful. And they hate discussing with most whites because they know most whites cannot do so honestly and without reaching for the 'I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' card. They know no one today had anything to do with it. But they pain of watching others in a lunch room, on tv discuss their proud heritage..yet they can't speak of their 'painful heritage' with the same enthusiasm -- because it makes people uncomfortable or start throwing out 'I-Had-Nothing-To-Do-With-It' cards ... instead of engaging in conversation.

This is why the state sometimes has to do what's right instead of waiting for the people to do it..because the people never, ever will.

See- House Formally Apologizes for Slavery, Segregation
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,394182,00.html

With the people as confused as they always are (re:facts/wisdom/having foresight)..they'll never correct a social wrong unanimously or in a timelt fashion. The whole Civil Rights saga is verifiable proof of that. The state had to seize the day and make it so.


And this is one of those times the State foresees the wisdom in an action to benefit future generations (and current). The apology will make it easier for the most ardent of racists to actually contemplate a civil and thoughtful discussion on America re:Race and it's Horrifically Dark and Tragic Past...even though you cannot.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:44 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 39):

What further do you propose that I do about it?

Have meaningful discussions with someone (others) of diverse views..vs those with like minded views.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 39):
Can you logically justify giving preferential treatment and monetary rewards to individuals that were almost certainly not subject to the discriminatory government policy?

Why would I..I've not said that.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 39):

Uhh, maybe it has more to do with the fact that younger Americans were not raised in a system that both told and showed them explicitly that blacks were not eligible for social interaction or public leadership?

No, people like Falcon or myself weren't raised that way either. As I've stated, teaching of this subject has gotten far more indepth with each successive generation.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AirStairs
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:07 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
Have meaningful discussions with someone (others) of diverse views..vs those with like minded views.

In my personal life, I have frequent, honest and varied discussions with black white indian hispanic asian european muslim jew christian hindu athiest rich and poor. Going to narcotics anonymous daily in large part assures that.

Personal empathy is not the same as government involvement. The only justification for the government to step into these issues is to ensure that the letter of the law applies equally to each and every citizen. It is impossible, impractical, and illogical to attempt to account for and sufficiently renumerate every single injustice over hundreds of years, especially because victims (or their descendants) will likely feel that restorative measures were "not enough" while the rest of the population will view them as "too much." In a sociological sense, of course we have to remember these issues, discuss and learn from them, but nothing is "owed" beyond what was explicity taken and can be restored.
 
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:17 am

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Blackbird
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:39 am

Just because we didn't put all the Native-Americans in an ashtray after gassing them to death doesn't mean what our country did didn't amount to genocide.

However, I think Obama is just doing this to appeal to liberal-minded voters -- I'm pretty sure he has little to any concern about Native Americans.


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AirStairs
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:16 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 44):
Just because we didn't put all the Native-Americans in an ashtray after gassing them to death doesn't mean what our country did didn't amount to genocide.

The UN defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

This test probably does not fit the native American case because the intent was territorial, not cultural. The government primarily sought to expand through (unfair) purchases and (misleading) treaties. The government in a sense hoped for the dissolution of the indigenous lifestyle of hunting and the tribal structure, and subsequently used forced relocations, but as far as my (rather limited) understanding goes, military violence was in provocation or response to the understandable but violent indigenous backlash.

Although I put forth that the native American case probably wasn't genocide, consider it was for the sake of argument. Is genocide eternally unforgivable? We, like the Germans after the war (which was much more recent), have changed our government and changed our policy to reflect respect for all ethnicities and religions. Why do Germany and other nations with genocides in recent history get "excused," while the United States is still railed for its troubled past?

It is fair to put the Holocaust behind the modern German government and people just as it is fair to put crimes of entirely different governments behind us. That we aren't shouldering responsibility where we shouldn't doesn't mean that we strike these events from the history books. We will continue to learn about them an discuss them on academic and individual levels. But all the government can and should do is reinvent itself. It already has.
 
BN747
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:52 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 42):
In my personal life, I have frequent, honest and varied discussions with black white indian hispanic asian european muslim jew christian hindu athiest rich and poor. Going to narcotics anonymous daily in large part assures that.

And continued rich, rewarding experiences as such should always keep you ahead of the curve of 'change'..

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 42):
Personal empathy is not the same as government involvement.

No it isn't, but it could achieve so much more than relying on or waiting for 'gov't intervention' if it could be uniformally connected person-to-person, but personal interpretations/experiences prevent such occurrence. So with respect to such enormous social conflicts...the state must take a stand for everyone.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 42):
The only justification for the government to step into these issues is to ensure that the letter of the law applies equally to each and every citizen.

Perfect 1950s to 60s model, many Americans wanted social equality, some faster than others ... and some not at all and would go to their graves to keep it from happening. The gov't had to take the lead..because blacks and sympathetic whites were spilling blood trying to obtain it.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 42):
It is impossible, impractical, and illogical to attempt to account for and sufficiently renumerate every single injustice over hundreds of years, especially because victims (or their descendants) will likely feel that restorative measures were "not enough" while the rest of the population will view them as "too much."

True, BUT a single gross injustice that SPANS hundreds of years trumps "attempt to account for and sufficiently renumerate every single injustice over hundreds of years" and that is exactly what is being dealt with here.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 42):
In a sociological sense, of course we have to remember these issues, discuss and learn from them, but nothing is "owed" beyond what was explicity taken and can be restored.

 checkmark 


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AirStairs
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:33 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
So with respect to such enormous social conflicts...the state must take a stand for everyone.

I don't follow...what is the enormous social conflict that we are currently experiencing? That certain ethnicities tend to be unsuccessful economically (rather, to have greater proportions in poverty and poor health) is as far as I can tell not something that springs from the state's consideration of ethnicity as a factor in legislation or enforcement.

The native American case, of which I do not know the real nuances of, seems to be different than, say, the ratio of poor to rich blacks vs that of poor to rich whites, because the native Americans have demanded autonomy and are thus in part or in full responsible for the prosperity of their communities. There are grumbles of institutional racism against blacks up and down the line but they come off as overstated to other groups and cast aside to blacks, it is hard to say where the reality lies there.

I will not say that the odds are even because they aren't. Chances are, a typical black child is probably going to get public education of a lesser quality than his white counterpart. Chances are greater that he will be raised in a single-parent house than his white counterpart. Racial lines exist in America and, like I said, the odds are not even. But the opportunities are where they were not before. The social structures (ie the values, attitudes, and opinions of blacks and whites) did not change overnight as the law did. So outside of equal funding for education and the absolute protection of liberties, I don't see how the government can force acceptance.

Before I am misread, I want to clarify that my arguments are from a strictly legal or "philosophical" point of view as I understand it; I am only trying to make clear the distinction between legislative and unconstitutional discrimination (Jim Crow), and the more discreet but legal structures that emerged during Jim Crow and according to it, but did not die with the law (ie a poor, black, crime-ridden neighborhood, which stacks the odds against its children but is not illegal or discriminatory.) These structures are wrong but have do be dealt with in different ways.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
Perfect 1950s to 60s model, many Americans wanted social equality, some faster than others ... and some not at all and would go to their graves to keep it from happening. The gov't had to take the lead..because blacks and sympathetic whites were spilling blood trying to obtain it.

And the above were the proper circumstances for intervention. As the law stands now, every citizen is given equal opportunity, protection and freedom of movement within it, absolutely regardless of race and gender (and several others, as we know.) If that principle is breached, the government must step in. I fail to see what grounds they have to otherwise.
 
BN747
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:46 am



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 48):
I don't follow...what is the enormous social conflict that we are currently experiencing?

Because your time on the planet is rather limited..much in this discussion is rather limited within your 'real life' experiences with this issue. You've seen nothing yet, your true 'being put on the spot' test will come when you're in a life depending (meaning your making a living) situation as an owner, manager (of a business) or employee as an experienced adult man. You'll have witnessed and seen much much more than now. Your views changed and altered by as much. But back to your question, the gov't has determined that this 'race' thing and it's nonsense has gone on far too long. The end of racism has to begin somewhere..why not now? It's never the perfect time for many people. But the perfect time never comes, so...someone just has too pull the lever.

For instance if Congress had taken the above action saaaayyyyy... in 1998, 10 years ago. Every single one of us on this board (participating in this thread) would be having an entirely different discussion.

So 'The Apology' is meant to start the national dialog, to begin to take race and it's issues (which must include the past,present and future) to go toe-to-toe with issue itself. For some people..'there's nothing to discuss (they see no problems)', for others (who've lived longer than you) it's is long overdue! They want to see their kids/grandkids/great-grandkids grow up without the negative stigmas associated with race in which they endured (and of which was worse which past generation). Starting something like this won't be pretty or easy...and with this election ... it's gonna get downright ugly! Congress apparently sees ahead here that 'the election, the new (president, esp if Obama), after the election (Obama or not)...race is going grip this nation hard...and stick around awhile. So get ready. The end of racism (not entirely of course) could not have picked a better time to launch with an election showdown like this one. Everything after this will be child's play.

This is the 21st Century 'enormous social conflict' ... it is putting our political well-being to a test like no other before. With race creeping in from all angles, (because many of us are trying to block it, drown it out and pretend it's not that prominent)..when in truth, it's plain as day.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 48):
As the law stands now, every citizen is given equal opportunity, protection and freedom of movement within it, absolutely regardless of race and gender (and several

As the law stands... but a personal review of jails across the country and you see very unequaled jurisprudence. You're contradicting yourself, you're saying on one hand, you know things aren't quite equal all around yet, because as the law now stands...it is. Well, it isn't. Not in housing, education, banking, employment, judiciary, etc.


BN747
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RE: Obama: US Past "tragic," Hints At Reparations

Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):

BN747, this is your best post ever.

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