Falcon84
Topic Author
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Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:19 pm

It seems our conservative friends-not just on here, but all over the good old U of S.A. (some of you need to go back to the 70's to understand that one), are already in high gear with their anti-Obama crusade.

A few questions for our conservative brethren on here:

1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

3. Who, in your heart of hearts, do you think REALLY is going to win the election?

I ask simply to find out why such vociferous venom against the man. Like Mr. McCain, he doesn't seem to be a bad guy; like Mr. McCain, he's served honorably (albeit for far less a time) in the United States Senate.

And personally, I think all these trivial non-issues make it look like the GOP can't beat him on the issues, and simply are going right to personal attacks.

And, in my heart of hearts, I'm as confident of an Obama win as I have been since he wrapped up the nomination. I wanted John Kerry to win in '04, but never quite felt as confident as I do this time.

I think Mr. McCain is a good man; I think he's served his nation well. But I believe, at 72, his best days are behind him, and having a 72-year old at the helm is not the best thing for this nation. I beleive that Mr. Obama offers the best chance to move the nation forward, and in a different direction than the failed policies of the last 8 years.

Comments, obviously, are welcome.

p.s. I bought an Obama t-shirt and yard sign today. As soon as the sign gets to my house ,it will proudly go on my front lawn.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RJdxer
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:29 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

I don't know, maybe the same could be said for what has been said about McCain. The whole age thing for example. Since when did we start practicing age discrimination in politics?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

Why is it when legitimate questions are raised about his judgement it instantly becomes "hate"? Same with:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I ask simply to find out why such vociferous venom against the man.

How is it vociferous venom to question his stated polices and aims as President or question his past judgements and personal associations.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Who, in your heart of hearts, do you think REALLY is going to win the election?

I don't know, it's only the last part of July. Anything is possible between now and November.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:03 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

Well, since McCain now leads Obama among those most likely to vote, something is happening...

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/07/gains-for-mccai.html

The other polls show a steady increase for McCain. I think it's going to keep going that way until November...

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

I don't hate either candidate, nor do I like either of them particularly...

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Who, in your heart of hearts, do you think REALLY is going to win the election?

Probably McCain...

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

And personally, I think all these trivial non-issues make it look like the GOP can't beat him on the issues, and simply are going right to personal attacks.

There are plenty of non-issues being thrown about by both sides... But on the issues that mean something, I couldn't support Obama...

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I beleive that Mr. Obama offers the best chance to move the nation forward, and in a different direction than the failed policies of the last 8 years.

What exactly does that mean? Seriously... I keep hearing change, but I don't hear to what...

Falcon, I think you've made up your mind. RJdexer probably has made up his mind too. No offense to either of you.

I honestly haven't decided. I'm one of those voters that both candidates target heavily because I've been a registered non-partisan for more than 30 years. Frankly, I usually vote with my wallet. And it looks like if Obama gets in I'll be paying a lot more. I already pay way too much. But if we could only vote out every member of Congress, I'd go along with anybody for President...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
HOMER71
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:14 am

I'm sorry your messiah is getting attacked, but I think one of the reasons for it is because the media love, errr, coverage of him is disproportionate to the quality the man possess as a viable candidate.

He's a good speaker (as long as his advisers tells him what to say), but he doesn't bring much to the table regarding his ideas, other than it's the opposite of what Bush is doing and making use of buzz words like "change" "hope" "believe" "Oprah", etc.

I won't be voting for him because I disagree with him on almost every political position/issue and Hollywood is climaxing over him, which always raises a red flag for me...
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
StarAC17
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:36 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

Yes, Rush Limbaugh is not being paid $400 million to tell people what cigars are good he influences millions of decision and so do other commentators.

Bill O'Reilly said it this week that Talk Radio is predominately right wing and has railed these guys for 3 hours, 5 days a week.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

Some do and those people have problems with themselves and some greatly disagree with him that it comes of that they hate Obame.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Who, in your heart of hearts, do you think REALLY is going to win the election?

IMHO its a toss up even now, but it looks more and more that Obama has to maintain the status quo at this point and not mess up with blunders and he will likely win. The disadvantage to being the media sweetheart is that when Obama messes up in a minor way its a much bigger deal than what I consider big McCain mess ups. Such as his bad geography skills shown by not knowing that Iraq and Afghanistan are separated by Iran and not knowing that Czechoslovakia hasn't existed for 16 years much worst that saying blue collar workers are addicted to religion and guns. Topping this McCain is supposed to be the better traveled of the two and if Obama did this there would be right wing outrage about his lack of experience

However I don't think a good portion of voters see it how I do and that is one reason it remains a solid toss up.
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Falcon84
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:49 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
Well, since McCain now leads Obama among those most likely to vote, something is happening...

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics....html

If you read the article closely, it says that was the Gallup daily tracking poll. Today's USAToday poll shows Obama up 48-40%.

And, again, Obama still holds a commanding electoral lead.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
What exactly does that mean?

It means exactly what he says. I think of the two he'll be the better president, and offerrs the best chance to move this nation forward. Clear enough?

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
I honestly haven't decided.

You already said you cannot support Obama.

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 3):

I'm sorry your messiah is getting attacked

Thank kind of crap. I have one "Messiah", and He does not reside on this planet. No, it's not Ronald Reagan.  Big grin
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even Aug

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:01 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
What exactly does that mean?

It means exactly what he says. I think of the two he'll be the better president, and offerrs the best chance to move this nation forward. Clear enough?

No, you're playing his game... You say we'll move "forward." That's saying nothing. I hate to tell you this, but no matter who's elected, in four years we'll be four years forward...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
I honestly haven't decided.

You already said you cannot support Obama.

I did not say that. If I did, please point it out. I said I can't support higher taxes. Right now, I'm closing in on paying Uncle Sam half the money I make. How much do you think is enough?
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 6):
I did not say that. If I did, please point it out.

OK:

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
But on the issues that mean something, I couldn't support Obama...

There ya go.  Smile

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 6):
Right now, I'm closing in on paying Uncle Sam half the money I make. How much do you think is enough?

About 20% less than that.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:28 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

I believe he's an empty suit. He won't do any town hall debates, and when he's away from the scripted, he seems overwhelmed and lost in the train of thought.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

It's not hate Falcon, at least not on my end. I just don't like his politics. I don't like his socialist agenda. He wants to expand gov't control over all basic services, he wants to raise taxes to astronomical levels.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Who, in your heart of hearts, do you think REALLY is going to win the election?

I think that Americans will come to their senses and wake up from this acid trip that they're on and McCain will win.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I ask simply to find out why such vociferous venom against the man. Like Mr. McCain, he doesn't seem to be a bad guy; like Mr. McCain, he's served honorably (albeit for far less a time) in the United States Senate.

I don't think Obama is a bad guy either. I don't wish him any ill will. I just don't like the way he thinks.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And personally, I think all these trivial non-issues make it look like the GOP can't beat him on the issues, and simply are going right to personal attacks.

The only reason why Obama is being targeted is, becuase the media is in this state sheer frenzy over him, making him out to be Jesus Christ himself. THe media is turning him into a lightning rod. When it comes to a sheer debate on the issues, without a script, Obama is going to tank, bigtime.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And, in my heart of hearts, I'm as confident of an Obama win as I have been since he wrapped up the nomination. I wanted John Kerry to win in '04, but never quite felt as confident as I do this time.

He needed the help of super-delegates to insure his nomination. Hillary was neck and neck with him until the end.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I think Mr. McCain is a good man; I think he's served his nation well. But I believe, at 72, his best days are behind him, and having a 72-year old at the helm is not the best thing for this nation. I beleive that Mr. Obama offers the best chance to move the nation forward, and in a different direction than the failed policies of the last 8 years

Oh brother, where art thou?
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MaidensGator
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:29 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):

There ya go.

You got me... But if you read my whole original post, you'll also see I said I honestly have not decided for whom I will vote. I get two choices, and I've voted before for what I considered the lesser of two eviIs. I don't equate that with supporting a candidate. I still want to hear some concrete proposals from each of them. I really don't just want to hear "change". There will be a change no matter what; the question is if it will be for better or worse.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 6):
Right now, I'm closing in on paying Uncle Sam half the money I make. How much do you think is enough?

About 20% less than that.

I would love paying 30 percent... So you and I do agree on some things....  Wow!
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
planespotting
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:34 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 1):
The whole age thing for example.

Oh come now, you're not that naive ... age is front and center in American politics whenever a young guy runs against an old guy - and it started with Kennedy v. Nixon in 1960.


While I've always been an Obama supporter, I was feeling pretty good about McCain when he was locking up the GOP nomination. Since then though, his campaign has basically been sitting still, making fairly minor gaffes here and there but really not doing much, other than commenting on his opponent.

I'm sure when he announces his VP candidate he'll get some momentum, but he better hope he announces it after Obama, otherwise Barack will come out with his a day or two after and steal all of McCain's thunder.
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MaidensGator
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:48 am



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 10):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 1):
The whole age thing for example.

Oh come now, you're not that naive ... age is front and center in American politics whenever a young guy runs against an old guy - and it started with Kennedy v. Nixon in 1960.

And you're calling RJ naive???? On election day in 1960, Nixon was 47 and Kennedy was 43.  Yeah sure
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
stlgph
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:58 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

eh, why bother? if some people fret that much on the internet, can you imagine just how much emotional damage there is on the inside or actual life? it's a bit disheartening. i do feel sorry for some.




well, correction.

many.
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AirCop
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:06 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 8):
I don't like his socialist agenda. He wants to expand gov't control over all basic services, he wants to raise taxes to astronomical levels.

Source?

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 6):
I'm closing in on paying Uncle Sam half the money I make. How much do you think is enough?

Ouch! I paid 8% in federal taxes last year, no social security for me, the other half yes, which I find the SS withholding  eyepopping  . So the total on a top 10% income around 12%.
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
Ouch! I paid 8% in federal taxes last year, no social security for me, the other half yes, which I find the SS withholding eyepopping . So the total on a top 10% income around 12%.

I started my own business this year, so when I pay myself salary out of the company, I have to pay both sides of SS, plus the 28% fed. Too many of my paychecks get over 40% deposited to the IRS... Hopefully, at the end of the year I'll get some back, but the 15.3% SS is gone with the wind, and I don't have a lot of deductions. When I worked for someone else, I got used to having over 30% withheld. Going over 40% pisses me off...  Angry
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
alfa75
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
Frankly, I usually vote with my wallet. And it looks like if Obama gets in I'll be paying a lot more. I already pay way too much.

I make pretty good money, very high 5 figures, and do you know what I got extra in the last round of tax cuts? $6.00 after taxes in a bi-weekly paycheck. Big deal. It doesn't even cover the $6.00 a week I spend in lottery tickets!

The problem in the US is that the Republicans are good with turning a phrase and people fall for it. Democrats are called tax and spend liberals. Well guess what, we spend it on what the citizens of the country need like healthcare. Republicans are untax and spend, then they go out and start a war that we have to borrow money from China to pay for. Real smart, what a great legacy for our kids.

I understand voting with your wallet, but I would rather vote for the guy who is going to make the USA a leading nation in the world. We used to be a respected country and look where we are. Our dollar is weaker than ever most of us can hardly afford to travel abroad anymore. That is how it effects my wallet. I would rather pay more taxes at home in order to have a strong dollar and the respect of other countries.

Besides, do we want a president who thinks Czechoslovakia is still a country? I though he had the "Foreign Policy Experience".
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RJdxer
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:22 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 2):
RJdexer probably has made up his mind too

I'm already disappointed in my choices. There is no "lesser" of two evils in this election, either choice is equally poor.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
It means exactly what he says. I think of the two he'll be the better president, and offerrs the best chance to move this nation forward. Clear enough?

I have to admit I'm confused on this too. Exactly what is "forward"? I hear that every 4 years and yet somehow I am told 4 years later that we are not moving in that direction.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 10):
age is front and center in American politics whenever a young guy runs against an old guy - and it started with Kennedy v. Nixon in 1960.



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 11):
And you're calling RJ naive???? On election day in 1960, Nixon was 47 and Kennedy was 43.

Beat me to it! Kennedy painted Nixon as part of the old guard, not old.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:27 am

Made from jets!
 
stlgph
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:30 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):

www.barackobama.com/i'mgonnastealyo...punk/

uh ... do you even bother to check things for yourself?
thanks for the laugh, though.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
alfa75
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:36 am

The best things in life aren't things!
 
planespotting
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:43 am



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 11):
Quoting Planespotting (Reply 10):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 1):
The whole age thing for example.

Oh come now, you're not that naive ... age is front and center in American politics whenever a young guy runs against an old guy - and it started with Kennedy v. Nixon in 1960.

And you're calling RJ naive???? On election day in 1960, Nixon was 47 and Kennedy was 43. Yeah sure



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 16):
Quoting Planespotting (Reply 10):
age is front and center in American politics whenever a young guy runs against an old guy - and it started with Kennedy v. Nixon in 1960.


Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 11):
And you're calling RJ naive???? On election day in 1960, Nixon was 47 and Kennedy was 43.

Beat me to it! Kennedy painted Nixon as part of the old guard, not old.

Ah yes - the call out was well deserved. I guess it's hard to imagine Nixon as something other than an old man. But in all fairness, Nixon did try to paint Kennedy as young and inexperienced, while Kennedy said the opposite about Nixon.

I dare say they did such a good job that people 50 years later still think one was super old and the other super young!

haha
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AirCop
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even Aug

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:51 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 17):
www.barackobama.com/i'mgonnastealyourmoneypunk/

Your credibility is zero. I'm going to put you down as an uninformed voter..
Nice way to treat your other board members.

[Edited 2008-07-30 19:58:48]
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:53 am



Quoting STLGph (Reply 18):
uh ... do you even bother to check things for yourself?

Uh, ever hear of a joke-though-hyperlink or do you really take yourself that seriously?
Made from jets!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:55 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
uniformed

A uniformed voter? I have many uniforms, soon to be Delta
Made from jets!
 
AirCop
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:00 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 23):
I have many uniforms, soon to be Delta

Perhaps..

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 22):
Uh, ever hear of a joke-though-hyperlink or do you really take yourself that seriously?

Just a cute way of saying I didn't check it out..
 
AirCop
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:10 am

Just checked out the Washington Post web site, this will be enough to make some people here seriously ill; half way down under Campaign 2008 the title reads: President Obama continues Tour..
 
dc863
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:39 am

If one doesn't want the third degree, then don't run for President. Any candidate whether Dem, Rep, or Independant will be grilled, raked over the coals etc etc.
Obama and the media are currently on honeymoon. If Obama gets elected there will come a time when this same media MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS etc will love tearing him down.
 
AirStairs
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:17 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

I would encourage you to reframe your thinking. 99.999% of anti-Obama sentiment is "nothingness" and "a bunch of non-issues" but what do you think debating about John McCain's on-the-fly geography skills and melanomas and splitting words constitutes? That somehow becomes relevant to the long-term prosperity of the nation where Mr Obama's public choices are still irrelevant.

I will give you that it is largely nonsense, but it is ALL nonsense, not just what is directed towards Mr Obama.

Quoting Alfa75 (Reply 15):
The problem in the US is that the Republicans are good with turning a phrase and people fall for it. Democrats are called tax and spend liberals.

Really......really? I invite you to count how many times the terms "neocon" and "warmongerer" and "imperialist" and "McSame" have been dropped on these boards and you will have a small sample of the larger discourse. It is a two way street, my friend.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

No; I have the feeling that I wouldn't get along with him in person but that's a separate issue entirely and one that has no bearing on my support (or lack thereof) of his policy.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And personally, I think all these trivial non-issues make it look like the GOP can't beat him on the issues, and simply are going right to personal attacks.

I would say that in the context of a domestic campaign, the distinction between the former Czechoslovakia and the modern-day Republics is about as trivial as it gets, and yet somehow an error in unrehearsed words is excused into the realm of intelligent debate.

I simply don't understand how you can take the position that "the Democrats" (since you lump the GOP into a body of cohesive action) are simply not taking part in irrelevant PR campaigns that the Republicans are. It is a sad part of the modern political discourse that it is so long and drawn out that we are simply left with little to do but split hairs and pay attention to trivialities. But ask Britney Spears, that simply comes with being in the spotlight.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I beleive that Mr. Obama offers the best chance to move the nation forward, and in a different direction than the failed policies of the last 8 years.

I try every time I hear this, I really do, to understand what "forward" means and I have been offered nothing concretely. Is your vision of "forward" some Euroamerican community where rainbows and organic crops abound and rich and poor rub elbows while grazing on arugula?? Please enlighten as the above image is all I have been able to tease out of his PR consultants.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:44 am



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 20):
But in all fairness, Nixon did try to paint Kennedy as young and inexperienced, while Kennedy said the opposite about Nixon.

Nixon had been a Congressman, Senator, and two term Vice President. Kennedy, a Congressman and Senator. Kennedy's biggest problem with his youth wasn't from Nixon, it was from his own party. His biggest problem overall was being Catholic. Nixon claimed he was inexperienced because Nixon had been Vice President for 8 years.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 20):
I dare say they did such a good job that people 50 years later still think one was super old and the other super young!

Because one died super young and the other died super old.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Charles79
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:42 pm

Is it true that we still have over 90 days of this sh..... left! Man, this election is really getting old. Am I the only one who's already annoyed with it all?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 16):
I'm already disappointed in my choices. There is no "lesser" of two evils in this election, either choice is equally poor.

And I agree with you, RJ, though perhaps for slightly different reasons. I'm a socialist, and I also happen to be a gay man. You would think that I would be worshiping Obama right about now, yet I can't bring myself to even consider him as a presidential candidate, let alone vote for him. In my view he's not qualified for that job, he's message of change is based on fairy tales and unicorns, and his "presidential trip around the world" doesn't make him an overnight expert on foreign policies. Beyond that, he simply does not inspire confidence in me, and there's something about him that I just can't trust. The democratic party blew this election with this candidate me thinks; they couldv'e had the WH in a platter, instead they chose the less experienced, furthest left candidate of the choices they had.

Which brings me to McCain. I really like and respect McCain, I don't think his age is that much of a negative, and he has a nice record of crossing boundaries to work with the other party. McCain, though, stands too close to the republicans on many issues such as gay marriage, the Iraq war, national health care (i.e. he doesn't want one), etc. I honestly think that the US will be better with McCain than with Obama but again I can't bring myself to vote for him.

I have no idea who I'll vote for right now, guess I'll wait for the VP picks for a better idea. As for the OP questions:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

I think it does. Take the new celebrity ad for instance; it's no secret that our country is obsessed with celebrities and the way some people adore Obama is irrational to a certain extent. It was a brilliant ad and I'm sure will resonate with many folks.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

I don't think anyone hates either candidate, Falcon. We may not like their positions or don't think they're qualified but hate is too strong of a feeling to invoke during an election.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Who, in your heart of hearts, do you think REALLY is going to win the election?

Well, as a gay man I wish I were wrong cause it would mean 4 more years of being denied basic rights that my straight friends take for granted but I think McCain will win. The democrats blew their chance IMO.
 
Pope
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:59 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It seems our conservative friends-not just on here, but all over the good old U of S.A. (some of you need to go back to the 70's to understand that one), are already in high gear with their anti-Obama crusade.

That calls for the newly unveiled HYPOCRISY METER:

Big version: Width: 347 Height: 334 File size: 19kb


Let's go back to the archives and see how much the member formerly known as Alpha1 posted about the 2004 election and George Bush before August of 2004. Just one more example of the do as I say not as I do mentality of the OP.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 29):
I think it does. Take the new celebrity ad for instance; it's no secret that our country is obsessed with celebrities and the way some people adore Obama is irrational to a certain extent. It was a brilliant ad and I'm sure will resonate with many folks.

It wasn't brilliant, it is nothing short of childish and classic Karl Rove style campaigning from a man who said that this was not going to be a negative campaign. When all else fails, attack the other on a non-issue right? Brilliant  Yeah sure
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
AirStairs
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:14 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 29):
Is it true that we still have over 90 days of this sh..... left! Man, this election is really getting old. Am I the only one who's already annoyed with it all?

Yes I am on the cusp of resolving to ignore the political media until October when I will look at both of their platforms and use whatever knowledge of government that I have to make my best judgment about what they can and can't make happen.

These analysts and commentators are seriously eroding the discourse of policy and philosophy in this country.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 29):
I'm a socialist, and I also happen to be a gay man. You would think that I would be worshiping Obama right about now, yet I can't bring myself to even consider him as a presidential candidate, let alone vote for him. In my view he's not qualified for that job, he's message of change is based on fairy tales and unicorns, and his "presidential trip around the world" doesn't make him an overnight expert on foreign policies. Beyond that, he simply does not inspire confidence in me, and there's something about him that I just can't trust.

I agree 100% with everything you said except the third word. I actually have trouble categorizing myself as libertarians are now lumped with all the far-outness of Ron Paul and I don't have a lot of confidence in third parties (ideally, yes, in reality, no). I don't think centrist is entirely accurate either. Who knows.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 29):
McCain, though, stands too close to the republicans on many issues such as gay marriage, the Iraq war, national health care (i.e. he doesn't want one), etc. I honestly think that the US will be better with McCain than with Obama but again I can't bring myself to vote for him.

The thing is though about a lot of these token republican issues (ie running on a pro-life platform) is that very little action is taken one way or another, it is more of a kind of rallying point to galvanize voters, media hype, you get the picture. The parties are obviously converging over the Iraq war now and are simply arguing history (one is the "I told you so" and the other is the stubborn denial to admit that maybe I was not right--equally useless).

Isn't it interesting to compare the "values" election of 04, when the pockets were deep, to this year's? Almost no mention is given to those issues and what is said does not nearly reach the depth of media coverage and analysis as it did in 04.

Healthcare, well, coming from a family of physicians I simply can't agree with you there.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 29):
Well, as a gay man I wish I were wrong cause it would mean 4 more years of being denied basic rights that my straight friends take for granted but I think McCain will win.

I dropped the gay issue from my political consideration a while ago. I used to get heated about it but the reality is that if Mr Obama served even two terms, substantive change in gay marriage etc would very unlikely be made, and if it were, it would be on the state level.

I think the government perspective and relationship to all marriages needs to be reframed and reduced; but, pragmatically, that overhaul simply won't be the priority until economic and military times are much rosier.
 
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czbbflier
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:09 pm

Wow. A civilized discussion concerning the upcoming election for a change.

Congratulations to all.

I'm see how people believe that Obama is not 'the annointed' one and that McCain is still tied too closely to the Bush Admin despite his 'liberal' history.

What is a concern, however, is how the slightest imperfections concerning either candidate are raised to such hysterical levels.

Both candidates have their faults. Both candidates have their shortcomings.

* * *

However, I would be curious to read in a single post, what the advantages are, in point form, to Obama, and in another single post, in point form what the advantages are to McCain.

Think of as many as you can, and put the advantages that would appeal to undeclared, undecided voters first.

Then, to the same person who posts the advantages to their preferred candidate, post what they think are the drawbacks to the individual they chose and then in third post, what they think of as the disadvantages associated with 'the other guy'.

Once this is done, I'd like to see the results in table form of all the data collected!

Curious to see the final product......
 
SlamClick
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:40 pm



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 10):
age is front and center in American politics whenever a young guy runs against an old guy - and it started with Kennedy v. Nixon in 1960.

Well, maybe not that election. Their ages were 4 years, 4 months, 20 days different. I remember the election very well, though I was too young to vote in it. The big issue was Kennedy's being a Catholic, not their ages.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:50 pm



Quoting Alfa75 (Reply 15):
Besides, do we want a president who thinks Czechoslovakia is still a country?

Do we want a President [Obama] who thinks the USA has 57 states?

Both of these remarks were probably just slip-of-the-tongue and utterly irrelevant.
On the other hand, anyone who ever believed that either of them was significant might just lack the intelligence to participate in the demcratic process as an adult.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:41 pm

Okay, housekeeping chores done, time to answer the o/p questions.

1. Yes. It will make two differences, more or less offsetting. The far right will believe it all and the far left will believe none of it. And it is mostly crap unless Snopes is part of the grand left conspiracy because they dispute most of the anti-Obama stuff.

2. I don't hate the man at all. I just think that if you add up the total days he has been present for duty as a Senator he is about as experienced as the typical intern. In other words, hardly at all.

3. Probably Obama. Partly because the under-40 crowd who think it is okay to live with and off your parents until your 30s, and that it is never going to be necessary to grow up beyond fratboy age, apparently thinks 72 to 76 is an age of irrelevance.


Those are your answers. Now a few comments that might be pertinent.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
our conservative friends...are already in high gear with their anti-Obama crusade

I know what you are talking about. I have many friends and relatives emailing me warnings about Obama every single day. Can't remember the last time I actually read one in its entirety.
HOWEVER
Their frenzy isn't the palest shadow of the pro-Obama hysteria. Have you seen his events? It is adoration based on nothing but adoration. He is a celebrity and as such, he will be given godlike immunities undreamed of by Reagan's crowd.

It is that alone that will keep me from voting for him. He is way too adored for having accomplished precisely dick for our own good. Never in all of human history did someone get drafted into leadership by such acclaim without it ending badly. Through no particular fault of Obama himself, the kind of power he will have will damage us. It cannot be otherwise.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
like Mr. McCain, he's served honorably (albeit for far less a time) in the United States Senate.

Neither man has served "honorably" in the Senate. They, both of them, have enriched themselves personally at our expense. They will be wealthy for the rest of their lives on the strength of having gotten through a single term without being impeached and you call that "honorable." I do not.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
and simply are going right to personal attacks.

I dont think this is a personal attack: Obama attended, with some regularity, a church that frequently, if not every single Sunday, preaches hatred of white America and he claims to have never heard such a message. He is full of crap. He looked us right in the eye and he said, in effect: You, the people of the USA are not worthy of a good lie, so I"m just going to claim that I never heard such a message. Unforgivable in a thousand years. Unforgivable if McCain had done it. It was a lie when uttered, it will be a lie a year from now, though I expect his disciples to cry "old issue" when it is brought up. It will still be a lie.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
McCain... at 72, his best days are behind him

Physically, of course they are. But we don't elect Presidents to armwrestle our enemies. Mentally, how is he doing. His mother seems pretty bright and alert. And the issue is not whether his best days are behind him, but does he still have four or eight years of good days ahead of him? Or do you favor EVERYONE leaving at the peak of their game. Because it might be suggested that right now - in the middle of this campaign - is as Good as Obama is ever going to get. Are his best days behind him too?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
p.s. I bought an Obama t-shirt and yard sign today. As soon as the sign gets to my house ,it will proudly go on my front lawn.

This is precisely why I worry about Obama. I've voted every year since 1968 and I have NEVER ONCE worn so much as a lapel button for one of the candidates. See arguments about celebrity privilege for reasons why.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
seb146
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. Do you really think all this anti-Obama nothingness-and so far, that's what 99.999% of it is, a bunch of non-issues, makes any kinid of difference in the election?

To intelligent voters from all parties, no the ADS mean nothing. We look past that. However, to the "Inside Edition" crowd who simply can not fathom anything more than sound bites, yes, it makes a huge difference, unfortunatly. Who ever can win with sound bites, will win the election.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. Do you honestly hate the man that much?

Certain outlets do. I think (my opinion) Obama is simply pulling what Bush's minions did: gather ONLY Obama supporters, weeding out detractors. Remember Bush always has people outside his rallies to weed out the anti-Bush crowd? The difference is: Very few people have to be weeded out of Obama rallies and I don't think it would make much of a difference to him if they were there.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. Who, in your heart of hearts, do you think REALLY is going to win the election?

Obama.

That said, I also wish there were more of a third-party voice. I dislike the two-party system. I see the United States as having a political elite, and then the rest of the country. There are some issues I agree with Republicans on and a few issues I agree with Democrats on and other issues I think they are both wrong.

Also, I am sick of the political ads. Gordon Smith and Jeff Merkley have both been running ads in Oregon since about May 24. Our primary was May 21. I now only turn on the TV when I have to: Corner Gas (WGN 9PM Pacific) and occasionaly C-SPAN. Otherwise, I have XM on.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
AirCop
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:47 pm

I wonder it the Republican ads came out early this cycle, due to the Olympics? That will be two weeks of really low press interest in the campaigns, then followed by the usually dull conventions. Does anyone really pay attention to the conventions anymore?
 
SlamClick
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 37):
I see the United States as having a political elite, and then the rest of the country.

I agree. And it has every flaw and vice that European style nobility has, made worse by the illusion that any common person can be annointed. Not without some irreversible ring-kissing they can't.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 37):
no the ADS mean nothing

That is mostly because the ads are the politicians' own words and we all know they mean nothing - from your candidate or mine.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 37):
I also wish there were more of a third-party voice.

Me too. I part with both parties on several issues I consider huge. I realize that the Rs are not terminally serious about abortion or gay marriage at least to the point of losing the whole center, nor are the Ds serious enough about gun control or tax increases to the point of losing large numbers of votes over them but I cannot embrace either party if it means taking their stand on those and other issues. We've said it before, they are both self-serving liars and all you can do is pick which flavor of Kool-Aid you DON'T want to have poured down your throat.

At least in 2008 all pretense of democratic process will be abandoned with "super delegates" designating out next President. If it wern't for local issues being on the same ballot I wouldn't bother anymore.

Since computers exist, perhaps it is time for the citizens to vote directly (as stupid as I think you all are  Smile) since I believe that the true majority would like to cherry-pick the issues.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 37):
Also, I am sick of the political ads.

If the great Satan (corporate advertising) ever has its ways and mandates PVRs that will no longer fast-forward through the commercials all of my television sets will go to a landfill that very day. I have not watched a commercial for anything, much less a political ad in over a year. Won't do it. I may pay close to $200 a month for hundreds of channels I've never watched but watching a single commercial is too high a price to pay for having television. I'll retreat to the 19th century (with internet service)
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Obama This...Obama That: And It's Not Even August!

Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:04 am

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

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