Pope
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Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:07 pm

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_c...n/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

For the first time McCain takes the lead over Obama. Granted the lead is statistically insignificant, the change from a couple of weeks ago is significant.

Get ready for 4 more years of whinning from the left. What does it say about liberalism if the Democrats and their Messiah can't unseat a 71 year-old? OMGoodness. Let the games begin.

Seems JCS17 was on to something.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/1947692/
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
mt99
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:27 pm

Funny how people say "Polls can be manipulated to say anything you want" to discredit polls- unless of course.. it says what YOU want it to say..

[Edited 2008-08-04 09:30:35]
Step into my office, baby
 
sv7887
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:35 pm



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
For the first time McCain takes the lead over Obama. Granted the lead is statistically insignificant, the change from a couple of weeks ago is significant.

Get ready for 4 more years of whinning from the left. What does it say about liberalism if the Democrats and their Messiah can't unseat a 71 year-old? OMGoodness. Let the games begin.

It's WAY too soon to make a judgment on who will be the winner..That said, it is funny the Press appointed "Messiah" (CHANGE! Yes We Can!) is struggling to keep with "McSame" a guy who has run one of the most disorganized campaigns in a long time.

The public is starting to ask questions and the Messiah's over-reaction to the Celebrity Ad and playing the Race Card did not do him any good..

His pathetic flip flops on drilling and now opening up the Strategic Oil Reserve (Completely Ineffective and stupid considering it is meant for a NATIONAL emergency) are ill-timed considering oil is BELOW $120 a barrel...
 
baroque
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 2):
pathetic flip flops on

That is it, I have flipped! Not flip flopped, but flipped.

Can both parties PLEASE take a self imposed ban on the term flip flop
OR
explain why changing your mind is not a good idea?

Keynes phrase was:
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

If you have a good explanation of why you should ignore facts, go ahead with flip flops, otherwise for heavens sake it is the worst of school yard yobbishness. Sorry but it is. Popular in the US, but really you leave the rest of the world wondering what you do in relation to facts.
 
sv7887
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
Can both parties PLEASE take a self imposed ban on the term flip flop
OR
explain why changing your mind is not a good idea?

It's a bad idea when it happens in response to public opinion polls and not any real thought. Mr. Obama is the worst I've seen yet...It's shameless pandering just like his newfound opposition to abortion under certain circumstances.

Until Last Wednesday he was steadfast against ALL offshore drilling and any attempt at "energy gimmicks." On Friday he realized this issue was hurting him in the polls and changed his mind and now is rolling out a slew of gimmicks that will make things worse.


Hypocrisy?

McCain changed his opposition too but right when the price of gasoline went over $4, on the pretext that "Well we have to do something" so the public accepted it as logical and not shameless pandering.
 
planespotting
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:27 pm



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
What does it say about liberalism if the Democrats and their Messiah can't unseat a 71 year-old?

It's a little too early to be asking that question since we're still 3 months from the actual election, but if it indeed happens then there are many questions to be asked.

Suffice it to say, John McCain has run a far-from stellar campaign so far. The same can be said about Barack, but McCain has had many more foolish/eye-rolling moments (as opposed to Obama's up-to-this-point heavy reliance on fluff-speak).

We shall see how the next few months pan out.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:35 pm

Rasmussen also still shows Mr. Obama comfortably ahead in the Electoral vote.

Wonder if we have a repeat of '00, and Mr. Obama wins, how much crying the righties will do this time. I mean, turnabout is fair play, isn't it?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
sv7887
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:39 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Rasmussen also still shows Mr. Obama comfortably ahead in the Electoral vote.

according to Real Clear Politics, he has a whopping 1 point lead over McCain in those states..not exactly comfortable.

This race is anyone's for the taking.
 
greggarious
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:42 pm

If I hear the words "change" or "hope" uttered by the campaign again, I will throw up.
THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN NEEDS SUBSTANCE!!!   

[Edited 2008-08-04 10:42:52]
 
mt99
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:59 pm



Quoting Greggarious (Reply 8):
If I hear the words "change" or "hope" uttered by the campaign again, I will throw up.
THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN NEEDS SUBSTANCE!!

Are you suggesting they need to "change"..  chuckle .

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 4):
It's a bad idea when it happens in response to public opinion polls and not any real thought.

Well - first we are in Iraq for "100 years".. now "16 months"...
Step into my office, baby
 
greggarious
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
Are you suggesting they need to "change"..

Ha ha ha, damn you!  Big grin But to answer your question... yes.

I spent the summer working on the Obama campaign, actually. It's amazing how my feelings on Barack differ before and after my time with him. His stance against a free trade agreement with Colombia, his love for ethanol, this recent switch to support offshore drilling, and perhaps most egregiously, his support for the FISA amendments bill, have been pieces of a spiral from being pro-Obama to now being anti-McCain.

Screw politics!
 
Pope
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 5):
It's a little too early to be asking that question since we're still 3 months from the actual election, but if it indeed happens then there are many questions to be asked.

Absolutely. 3 months is a ton of time. Remember, three months before the 2004 election, Anybody but Bush had a 15 pt lead over GWB.

But however you measure it, it's clear the race has tightened and BO's momentum is slowing. Of course the convention will put a halt to the slide in the polls so I expect two weeks after the GOP convention (the later of the two) we'll have a race that's a dead heat.

Finally, unless BO is 3% to 5% pts ahead come the eve of election day, I predict that he'll lose. This may be the proverbial tortoise and the hare.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
Can both parties PLEASE take a self imposed ban on the term flip flop OR explain why changing your mind is not a good idea?

If you have a good explanation of why you should ignore facts, go ahead with flip flops, otherwise for heavens sake it is the worst of school yard yobbishness. Sorry but it is. Popular in the US, but really you leave the rest of the world wondering what you do in relation to facts.

I have no problem with a politician changing their position if the circumstances surrounding an issue change substantially.

But when a politician votes back-and-forth in a contradictory manner of the course of just a few months, it doesn't reflect serious deliberation. It shows a spineless worm who is posturing to public opinion polls. Politicians deserve to be called-out when they do that.
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:41 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
Can both parties PLEASE take a self imposed ban on the term flip flop
OR
explain why changing your mind is not a good idea?

SERIOUSLY!!

I mean, we've had "stay the course" for 8 years, and look what it got us. Running for office does not mean stating a couple policy points, then sticking your head in the sand.

You Republicans like to say things like "listen to the people on the ground" when you criticize Obama, but if someone does listen to the people on the ground when the ground changes, you castigate it as a flip flop. Like, you'd rather him run the ship into the iceberg. Idiotic.

Look people, you can't criticize someone for having a different opinion from you, yell at him to convince him that he's wrong, then continue to criticize him when he sees it your way. Utter nonsense.

As Schwartzenegger said, "flip flopping is getting a bad rap."
 
sv7887
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:44 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 4):
It's a bad idea when it happens in response to public opinion polls and not any real thought.

Well - first we are in Iraq for "100 years".. now "16 months"...

He never really said that. He was commenting on getting US troops out of the line of fire and brought our long term stays in Japan, South Korea, and Germany in that example.

He said in his own words:

"But I have also said that any draw-downs must be based on a realistic assessment of conditions on the ground, not on an artificial timetable crafted for domestic political reasons. This is the crux of my disagreement with Sen. Obama."

Source:http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/072008/07292008/397202/index_html?page=2

He said he didn't care if it was 16 months or one year, but it has to make sense.

Obama and the DNC got elected to Congress on the premise the troops would be out by now. Lo and behold, the surge was effective and they have nothing to show for it.

It's pure politics. It's not like McCain hasn't flip flopped, but he's shown more integrity (especially on the Iraq issue) than Mr. Obama has. What risks have Senator Obama taken? What unpopular positions has he taken?

Repeating the words "change" and "hope" isn't much. McCain has at least attempted to DO something on Iraq, campaign finance reform, the Boeing tanker lease deal, and wait, his son is a Marine who served in Iraq!

His energy plan makes far more sense than Obama's "Pump up your tire pressure" BS. So Obama finally saw the opinion polls and changed his mind suddenly last Friday even after whining on Wednesday that offshore drilling was a gimmick.

People aren't dumb, even the Press is calling it a flip flop. The US Public isn't buying it as the polls have shown. The Messiah, ought to have a 20 point lead by now, but he doesn't.

The independents are still sitting this one out, and they will decide this election.

My sense is the Obama love affair is starting to wane and he's committed some major gaffes with his "Dr. No" energy policy and trying to hit McCain with the Race Card. Obama has no plan other than his false empty platitudes.

Google Deval Patrick and you'll see it's a rehash of his campaign.

So now Obama is taking a page from Jimmy Carter's playbook with the Windfall Tax, despite it's abject failure last time around. Since when do capitalist countries single out an industry for a 8% Gross Margin? What's next? Taxing Microsoft, Apple, Boeing?

The guy has zero economic sense period.
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:45 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 4):
Until Last Wednesday he was steadfast against ALL offshore drilling

He's still against it. But since you've thrown it down, please point at the time at which he drew a line in the sand and said that he was unwilling to compromise about this.

For that matter, please point out where he has said he is unwilling to compromise about anything at all. Until then, you have a lot of explaining to do when you criticize him for changing his position, ESPECIALLY when he changes his position to align with yours.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 5):
as opposed to Obama's up-to-this-point heavy reliance on fluff-speak

News for you: McCain is fluff-speak too, perhaps moreso than Obama.
 
sv7887
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 15):

He's still against it. But since you've thrown it down, please point at the time at which he drew a line in the sand and said that he was unwilling to compromise about this.

He's voted against it since 2006.

Obama's OWN Senate Website From 2006
http://obama.senate.gov/news/060802-senate_oks_gulf/

We're opposed to this bill," said Sierra Club spokeswoman Annie Strickler. She said better automobile mileage, as proposed in a bill co-sponsored by Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), would yield greater energy independence at less cost to the environment.

Obama voted against the bill and said the Republican leadership was being "dishonest" by believing the nation's energy problem could be solved with more drilling.

Up until LAST WEDNESDAY:

Obama calls offshore drilling a 'scheme':

"The oil companies are shoving this thing down the throats of Congress, because they know everybody wants to try to pretend they're doing something about the energy crisis,” Obama said. “This is not real. I know it's tempting. The polls say its one of the ways that a majority of Americans think we're going to solve this problem, but it's not real."

"I understand how desperate folks are. If I thought that I could provide you some immediate relief on gas by drilling off the shores of California and New Jersey… I'd do it.”


Source: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-calls-offshore-drilling-a-scheme/


So explain, why the sudden change of heart in just two days? Why call it a "scheme" and call it "not real"? Sounds like Blanket Opposition to me.

Even the LA Times thinks so:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/08/obama-drilling.html

And some more sources for you:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...ml?source=RSSattr=Politics_4312874


Obama is pressed on the issue repeatedly on the campaign trail, but he refuses to budge, preferring to take pains to spell out his reasons.

Please be in favor of offshore production," Steve Hilton, a retired federal government worker in Lebanon, Mo., implored Obama during a tour of a diner there Wednesday.

"I'm in favor of solving problems," Obama responded. "What I don't want to do is say something because it sounds good politically."


It's shameless pandering, and the Obama Apologists are going to have a hard time explaining this one.
 
redflyer
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:03 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 11):
But however you measure it, it's clear the race has tightened and BO's momentum is slowing. Of course the convention will put a halt to the slide in the polls so I expect two weeks after the GOP convention (the later of the two) we'll have a race that's a dead heat.

Finally, unless BO is 3% to 5% pts ahead come the eve of election day, I predict that he'll lose. This may be the proverbial tortoise and the hare.

Barrack Hussein Obama is going to have to have more than a 3% - 5% net lead in polls come election day if he is to win the election given that the Wilder Affect no doubt skews some of the poll numbers.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
But when a politician votes back-and-forth in a contradictory manner of the course of just a few months, it doesn't reflect serious deliberation. It shows a spineless worm who is posturing to public opinion polls. Politicians deserve to be called-out when they do that.

 checkmark 

It also says a lot when a politician's overall positions change from being the most liberal in the Senate to suddenly acquiring a taste for moderate ideals. I wonder what has changed in the past year on the political landscape or global stage to make Barrack Hussein Obama suddenly embrace positions that previously were anathema to his core beliefs and political ideology?
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
sv7887
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:07 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
Until then, you have a lot of explaining to do when you criticize him for changing his position, ESPECIALLY when he changes his position to align with yours.

He's pandering pure and simple, it's not an honest change of position at all. The man has shown no character in actually staking his ground in something he believes in.

I've already shown in my last post the hypocrisy he's displayed on drilling. He has zero character and revises his positions constantly according to public opinion polls.

You can spin it like you do all of Obama's gaffes. The press is calling him out on this one.
 
AirCop
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:15 pm



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
For the first time McCain takes the lead over Obama.

Apparently the Gallup Poll taken during the same time span disagrees with Rasmussen:

PRINCETON, NJ -- Registered voters show a slight preference for Barack Obama (46%) over John McCain (43%) if the presidential election were held today, according to the latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking results.
 
planespotting
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:20 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 15):

News for you: McCain is fluff-speak too, perhaps moreso than Obama.

Oh yeah - McCain has a lot more problems than FluffSpeak - I was just naming what I perceive as Obama's main weakness. But McCain can get away with more of it.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:24 pm

I had high hopes for this election season, but sadly things have deteriorated. The appeal of both candidates has been significantly diminished. Some of that is due to the traditional political campaign grind and some is due to both candidates being exposed as being far weaker than one might think.

McCain used to be a respectable politician (a rare item in DC) who stood up for what he believed in. Now, he's just a shell of that man. His campaign flails around wildly with no message, no goals and no plans. If the way McCain runs a campaign is any indication of how he would run the White House, we are in trouble. It's pretty embarassing that a man with substantial military experience has such poor leadership.

Obama was a refreshing candidate who seemed on the verge of offering something new. But he too has derailed himself with too many gimmicks and too few real ideas. He seems to have lost any real message and allowed himself to be drowned in a game of fingerpointing. His lack of experience is really starting to show and it is hurting him.

Despite all that, I will say that whomever wins will still be a better president than our current one.
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 16):
He's voted against it since 2006.

I'll ask the question again. Please point to me where he has drawn a line in the sand and said he was unwilling to compromise. Your post in no way answers the question except your conclusory statement, which are your words, not his.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 16):
So explain, why the sudden change of heart in just two days?

It's not a change of heart. He said he's still against it, but it bending on that is required to get an overarching energy policy that works, he's willing to compromise.

Compromise - it's a word that Americans may have to get used to again. It is the antithesis of the Rove 51% plan we've seen in the last 8 years.

As for Pope, I wouldn't be so quick to declare McCain the winner. From the article:

"Rasmussen Markets data gives Obama a 60.0% chance of winning the White House."
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:42 pm



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 20):
I was just naming what I perceive as Obama's main weakness.

I don't think it's a weakness. Americans by and large do not want to hear details. Details are boring as shit. They want overarching ideas, and it has been shown that the more cerebral a candidate is, the more "out of touch" he is portrayed. (Because the media thinks Americans are as dumb as they are.)
 
Pope
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
As for Pope, I wouldn't be so quick to declare McCain the winner. From the article:

Where did I declare McCain the winner? Take a look a my Reply 11.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:53 pm

Again, let's start seeing what the polls say after both conventions are over-about the 2nd week of September, we should have an idea where this race is headed. I think, like most races in the last decade, it'll be pretty close, but I think Obama still wins,and with a comfortable electoral margian.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
greggarious
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
I don't think it's a weakness. Americans by and large do not want to hear details. Details are boring as shit. They want overarching ideas, and it has been shown that the more cerebral a candidate is, the more "out of touch" he is portrayed. (Because the media thinks Americans are as dumb as they are.)

I think you're giving too much credit to the media and not enough to the American public here. I've gotten the impression this summer (and I'm not just speaking for myself) that people are clamoring for less rhetoric and for one of the candidates to simply step up to the plate, stop skimming the issues, and open up a dialogue that actually MEANS something. I feel like this is the main reason that the race is so close, much closer than it could be in my opinion.

If the American public wanted overarching ideas and/or a cosmetic campaign, Barack would be decimating John McCain at the polls right now. But I believe that it's a statistical tie right now because neither of these bloody politicians is willing to level with the general electorate.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
News for you: McCain is fluff-speak too, perhaps moreso than Obama

That's not a card you want to play. McCain has more legislative accomplishments in his little finger than Barry has managed during his entire career. Plenty of Democrats in Congress (at least the honest ones) would admit this.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:38 am

Where was John Kerry at this time in the election cycle during the last Presidential race?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/polls/index.html

Who ended up winning?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
AirCop
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:43 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 28):
Where was John Kerry at this time in the election cycle during the last Presidential race?

Behind about 6 points, per the graph that you posted.
 
AirCop
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:19 am

Alert: Check out this weeks Newsweek dated 8/11/08..
http://www.newsweek.com/id/150477/page/1

No matter what side you're on, there is some truth to this.
 
Flighty
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:22 am

The polls have always shown that McCain is headed for victory. People just often mis-read polls to believe Obama is winning. In reality, Obama has not been winning the serious good forecasts.

That's not to say Obama isn't leading the phone polls. But simply, that does not translate to winning the Presidency in November. He needs a way bigger phone poll number than he's got. 60% IMO. Otherwise, Obama is screwed and he's going to lose.
 
jetstar
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:26 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 11):
Finally, unless BO is 3% to 5% pts ahead come the eve of election day, I predict that he'll lose. This may be the proverbial tortoise and the hare.

Obama will need more like 10 or more points alone just to overcome the Bradley effect, white democrats who swear they will vote for Obama, but vote for McCain instead because Obama is black.

And don’t forget Hillary’s large group of supporters, if Obama wins she is just about finished for ever running for president again in 8 years, if Obama loses, she is still viable enough to run again in 4 years because McCain will be over 75. I read that about 25 percent of Hillary’s supporters will vote for McCain, just so Obama loses the election and Hillary gets to run again.

Obama did poorly in a lot of areas of the country judging by the amount of delegates Hillary won, if Florida and Michigan were counted Hillary would have won the nomination, so there is a lot of anti Obama democrats out there.

My feeling McCain will win
 
Flighty
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:30 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 32):
My feeling McCain will win

I agree for the same reasoning you describe.

McCain is likely to take Florida and even Minnesota. Especially if Minnesota's gov is the VP for McCain, which seems very likely.
 
baroque
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:17 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 4):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
Can both parties PLEASE take a self imposed ban on the term flip flop
OR
explain why changing your mind is not a good idea?

It's a bad idea when it happens in response to public opinion polls and not any real thought. Mr. Obama is the worst I've seen yet...It's shameless pandering just like his newfound opposition to abortion under certain circumstances.

I should have pointed out that my flipping was not a specific reaction to you Sv - although the chances of reacting to you would be higher because I still read your posts because you do tend to present arguments more than catch phrases. So please take the reaction to your use of a catch phrase more as a compliment than a criticism.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
But when a politician votes back-and-forth in a contradictory manner of the course of just a few months, it doesn't reflect serious deliberation. It shows a spineless worm who is posturing to public opinion polls. Politicians deserve to be called-out when they do that.

There is the point, if someone has really been a spineless worm, tracking down the characteristics of "spineless worminess" is surely a more useful exercise compared with name calling.

I realise that much of what passes on these US political threads is common currency in the US but is at the same time totally obscure to we aliens. I do sense however, that some of the "in-conversations" might at times be obscure even to US cognoscenti??

Anyway folks, my suggestion was not a specific criticism, but rather an appeal for more reasoned argument. Bit worrying though to find (again) that I am with Arnie S!  boggled 
 
AirStairs
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:25 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
Well - first we are in Iraq for "100 years".. now "16 months"...

We are in Iraq until the mission is satisfactorily completed (that determination is simply up to the military, don't ask me to provide it) WITH the condition that casualties are not being sustained. He used 100 years as hyperbole to highlight the policy that the military will not disengage prematurely. It was not a committment and nor is sixteen months.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
You Republicans like to say things like "listen to the people on the ground" when you criticize Obama, but if someone does listen to the people on the ground when the ground changes, you castigate it as a flip flop. Like, you'd rather him run the ship into the iceberg. Idiotic.

Uhh except that it generally follows common sense that you would take the time to listen to the people on the ground before making broad policy proposals in a serious campaign. Yes, this process takes more than 17 months and cannot be squeezed between primaries and rallies. Shocker, it might even take more than three years in government to become a knowledgeable and adroit world leader.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
Americans by and large do not want to hear details. Details are boring as shit. They want overarching ideas, and it has been shown that the more cerebral a candidate is, the more "out of touch" he is portrayed. (Because the media thinks Americans are as dumb as they are.)

This is one of the more truly resonating justifications for Mr Obama's popularity.
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:58 am

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 35):
Uhh except that it generally follows common sense that you would take the time to listen to the people on the ground before making broad policy proposals in a serious campaign

And which people on the ground did McCain study before coming to his conclusions on gas taxes, drilling, etc.?

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 35):
Shocker, it might even take more than three years in government to become a knowledgeable and adroit world leader.

Bullshit. There are extremely few issues that last for more than three years without mismanagement of that issue, or manipulation for political gain.
Truth be told, all you need to be a leader is followers.
Quoting AirStairs (Reply 35):
This is one of the more truly resonating justifications for Mr Obama's popularity.

And Reagan's.

[Edited 2008-08-05 04:59:39]
 
RJdxer
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:52 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 36):
Truth be told, all you need to be a leader is followers.

Yep, just ask Jim Jones, David Koresh, or any other number of cults and religions. Just because you can sell people into following you doesn't mean you have a clue as to which is the best way to go.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:13 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 37):
Just because you can sell people into following you doesn't mean you have a clue as to which is the best way to go.

Apparently, it is also true that just because you have been in the Senate for nearly 30 years doesn't mean you have a clue as to which is the best way to go.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
Apparently,

Except being in the Senate for 30 years provides a lengthy public record of leadership. Being in the Senate for 3 provides little. Hillary Clinton was elected to the Senate in 2000 and many people still said she wasn't experienced enough nor had enough leadership experience. There is a reason you don't go from 1st officer on a turboprop to captain of a wide body jet in one single step.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:40 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
Except being in the Senate for 30 years provides a lengthy public record of leadership.

You just said that it isn't leadership that matters. are you flip flopping?

And in what way has McCain served as a leader? He has certainly been media fodder, but what leadership positions has he held, on government or in the military?
 
AirCop
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:53 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
Except being in the Senate for 30 years provides a lengthy public record of leadership.

Who has been in the Senate for thirty years? Being a Senator doesn't imply leadership, could a person could very well be a back bencher..

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
Hillary Clinton was elected to the Senate in 2000 and many people still said she wasn't experienced enough nor had enough leadership experience.

Apparently the "many" you speak of didn't vote; you should do a roll call of all the Senators and see what they were doing prior to being elected it might be interesting.

Leadership is still second when it comes to judgment.
 
mt99
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 37):

Yep, just ask Jim Jones, David Koresh, or any other number of cults and religions. Just because you can sell people into following you doesn't mean you have a clue as to which is the best way to go.

Yup. Why do you think that the Iraq War was so popular in the beginning? Who was selling? Who was buying? (Im looking at certain President and at certain people here)

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 35):
He used 100 years as hyperbole to highlight the policy that the military will not disengage prematurely.

Just as "Mission Accomplished" was a hyperbole?
Step into my office, baby
 
RJdxer
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:24 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
You just said that it isn't leadership that matters. are you flip flopping?

I did? Where? You said all a leader needs is followers and I provided some examples of poor leaders who were good salesmen.

Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
And in what way has McCain served as a leader? He has certainly been media fodder, but what leadership positions has he held, on government or in the military?

I don't particularly care for John McCain but a quick check of his senate committee assignments should tell you everything you need.

http://mccain.senate.gov/public/inde...esLegislation.CommitteeAssignments

contrasted to Senator Obama's which seems to be a little vacant on details.

http://obama.senate.gov/committees/

I guess we can safely assume he is not the ranking member or committee chair on any of those committees.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 41):
Who has been in the Senate for thirty years? Being a Senator doesn't imply leadership, could a person could very well be a back bencher..

I don't know, I didn't state 30 years although several Senators have been there that long or longer. Agreed, being a Senator does not imply leadership. But within the Senate there are leaders and based soley on longevity Senator McCain has obtained several leadership roles.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 41):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 39):
Hillary Clinton was elected to the Senate in 2000 and many people still said she wasn't experienced enough nor had enough leadership experience.

Apparently the "many" you speak of didn't vote; you should do a roll call of all the Senators and see what they were doing prior to being elected it might be interesting.

If I was talking about her Senate run in 2000 that would be an accurate statement. I was, however, talking about her Presidential run this past year. If you are going to deny that many people felt she, even with her 7 years of Senate experience, was too inexperienced to be President then you are denying the completely obvious and wasting my time as well as yours.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 41):
Leadership is still second when it comes to judgment.

Agreed.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
D L X
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 43):
I don't particularly care for John McCain but a quick check of his senate committee assignments should tell you everything you need.

http://mccain.senate.gov/public/inde...ments

So... he's led the Commerce, Science, and Transportation committee and the Indian Affairs committee... and that means he's fit to lead the nation. I see...

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 43):
contrasted to Senator Obama's which seems to be a little vacant on details.

I'm not the one standing on a position that committee leadership (or even membership) makes someone a leader. That's your position that your evidence fails to support.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 43):
I did? Where? You said all a leader needs is followers and I provided some examples of poor leaders who were good salesmen.

Reply 37. You didn't disagree with my definition of "leader." No, instead you trivialized its importance by comparing cult leaders.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 43):
But within the Senate there are leaders and based soley on longevity Senator McCain has obtained several leadership roles.

I count two: Commerce, Science and Transportation, and Indian Affairs.



I'll say it again. I'm not questioning that McCain is fit to lead, but if you're going to say that Obama isn't, you better come correct with a good reason. ALL of the reasons I have heard for why Obama isn't fit seem to apply equally well to McCain.
 
waterpolodan
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 17):
Barrack Hussein Obama

Does it make you feel better to remind us all of his middle name?
 
RJdxer
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
and that means he's fit to lead the nation. I see...

I didn't say that, you did.

Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
I'm not the one standing on a position that committee leadership (or even membership) makes someone a leader. That's your position that your evidence fails to support.

If someone is a committee chair, they lead that committee no matter how you want to dissect it. They set the agenda for the committee period. Leader can have several definitions of which committee chair would be one.

Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
Reply 37. You didn't disagree with my definition of "leader." No, instead you trivialized its importance by comparing cult leaders.

Didn't trivialize at all. As I said above, the definition of leader can mean several things to include a cult leader. Leadership as it defines being President of the United States would probably also include the term "judgement" of which we have more than a few public examples for Senator McCain given his public record. Far more than we have from Senator Obama.

Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
I count two: Commerce, Science and Transportation, and Indian Affairs.

Now whose trivializing? How many committee chairs has Senator Obama held? Has he held any leadership role in the Senate at all?

Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
ALL of the reasons I have heard for why Obama isn't fit seem to apply equally well to McCain.

Such as lack of military experience? Lack of a public record?
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AirStairs
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:42 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 36):
Bullshit. There are extremely few issues that last for more than three years without mismanagement of that issue, or manipulation for political gain.
Truth be told, all you need to be a leader is followers.

I'm not speaking of specific issues, rather of platforms (philosophic and realist), policy analysis acumen and general knowledgeability that comes from being part of the legislative mechanism that runs the entire country, deals with foreign policy, and can over the long term observe the consequences of its decision making process.

Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
Apparently, it is also true that just because you have been in the Senate for nearly 30 years doesn't mean you have a clue as to which is the best way to go.

Your statement is absolutely true, 30 years experience alone doesn't qualify you for shit and doesn't make you a leader. But it does very strongly suggest that you are able to successfully navigate the convoluted political landscape and that you have a much larger toolbox to work with and base of relevant experience to draw judgment from than someone with 10% of your experience. Furthermore, a senator with a longevity has been held accountable by voters several times over his career, whereas Mr Obama has not passed this test, which may have had a different outcome had he not found the limelight.

Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
So... he's led the Commerce, Science, and Transportation committee and the Indian Affairs committee... and that means he's fit to lead the nation. I see...

I don't think anyone is arguing that Senate committee experience alone constitutes fitness to lead a nation, but that these committee positions and Mr McCain's longevity in the Senate indicate that Mr McCain probably has leadership ability and know-how; Mr Obama very well might have it too but the fact is that he has not yet "paid his dues" so to speak. He proved that he can get to the legislature but not that he can earn his stay there. His high profile would undoubtedly influence a future senatorial election just like Ms Clinton's did and will so we will probably not get to see how he performs by his own merit.

Quoting D L X (Reply 44):
I'll say it again. I'm not questioning that McCain is fit to lead, but if you're going to say that Obama isn't, you better come correct with a good reason. ALL of the reasons I have heard for why Obama isn't fit seem to apply equally well to McCain.

The answer is obviously largely subjective. "Fitness to lead" doesn't even really make sense; but, Mr Obama appears to me the guy that is probably smart and because he is so confident will take everything altogether too fast if the opportunity presents itself. I don't appreciate that characteristic in anyone really and place value of the idea of evolving a well-rounded and pragmatic outlook over a long time.
 
redflyer
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:47 am



Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 45):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 17):
Barrack Hussein Obama

Does it make you feel better to remind us all of his middle name?

It doesn't make me feel better, but does it bother you to be reminded of his middle name?
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
waterpolodan
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RE: Rasmussen Shows McCain Ahead

Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:22 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 48):

It doesn't make me feel better, but does it bother you to be reminded of his middle name?

No, but you wouldn't go through the effort of typing it if you weren't trying to make some point. Do you do the same for McCain? Nope. Why do it for him? Don't play the game that the lowest of the low conservatives are trying to play, fear mongering through word association.

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