AGM100
Topic Author
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Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:27 pm

OK I have heard enough hate of "Big Oil "

Big oil, Finds it , drills for it .. pumps it out , ships it , refines it , blends it , moves it locally and makes 10% profit. Our government does nothing and makes 10% per gallon.


I love oil ! I use it all the time ,, it moves me and my family to school, church, vacations and we have a great life because of it. My fellow citizens should be proud that we in the US have the largest most powerful , innovative , high-tech oil companies. The oil companies have done a great job of getting the energy we need and putting it on just about every street corner so you can fill up anytime you need to.

Neither one of our Presidential candidates comprehend the situation ... both of them take the easy road of vilifying success . This is one American who is proud of the success of our energy industry ... its the finest ever.

And if you dont agree...... WALK.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
mt99
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:22 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):

And if you dont agree...... WALK.

Or use public transportation..

The fact that oil is good.. Yes i agree with you.. But how does that translate for us a society not become more efficient as a whole?

Why settle for a 13mpg car, when a 30mpg car can be engineered? Why settle for analog TV when you can have HDTV? Why settle for a 56.6 Modem, when you can have a T1 line?

You sound so un-American.
Step into my office, baby
 
National757
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:43 pm

Thank you Big Oil for:

Suppressing alternative energy sources
Encouraging automakers to build inefficient vehicles
Lobbying Congress to add loopholes to any MPG mandate
Increasing air and water pollution
Directly increasing the wealth and influence of extreme regimes in the Middle East
Indirectly causing Urban Sprawl and contributing to the ever increasing waistlines of Americans

Thanks!
 
AGM100
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:54 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 1):
The fact that oil is good.. Yes i agree with you.. But how does that translate for us a society not become more efficient as a whole?

No problem with that and I for one have done it as much as possible. Not to save the planet , not to hurt OPEC or XOM . I did it because if you are a intelligent human being you should always strive for efficiency so that you save more hard earned dollars. I do not drive Hybrids but I do drive economical cars.

Mt99 , their are many models on the market now that get close to 30mpg.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 1):
T1 line?

T1 Line ! man I have not heard that since like 2001 !  Big grin
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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Tugger
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:01 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
My fellow citizens should be proud that we in the US have the largest most powerful , innovative , high-tech oil companies.

Not to knock your comment the the USA's oil companies are probably the best in the world. But an interesting point to note is that most of these "big oil" companies are dependent on the "oil services" companies to actually "find it", "drill it" and"pump it out".

And the largest oil service company is Schlumberger, originally a French company that is now incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles. There are many, many more but these are the "grunts" of the oil industry that have the expertise, equipment, and skilled people to actually get the oil up:

"Schlumberger Limited is the world's largest oilfield services corporation operating in approximately 80 countries, with about 80,000 people of 140 nationalities. Schlumberger supplies a wide range of products and services from seismic acquisition and processing; formation evaluation; well testing and directional drilling to well cementing and stimulation; artificial lift and well completions; and consulting, software and information management."

Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
government does nothing and makes 10% per gallon.

Ummm, goverment DOES do something. It provides the framework for the stable society that consumes the oil and that stable society ensures the continued viability of said oil companies. Why do think business all around the world LOVES the USA?

Just something to chew on.....

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
mt99
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:07 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):

T1 Line ! man I have not heard that since like 2001 !

LOL.. Touche!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
not to hurt OPEC or XOM

How about eating big macs only - that way you will not hurt McDonald at your own detriment?

Same logic no?
Step into my office, baby
 
Flighty
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:07 pm



Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Suppressing alternative energy sources
Encouraging automakers to build inefficient vehicles
Lobbying Congress to add loopholes to any MPG mandate
Increasing air and water pollution
Directly increasing the wealth and influence of extreme regimes in the Middle East
Indirectly causing Urban Sprawl and contributing to the ever increasing waistlines of Americans

Thanks!

Could not have said it better!

They should also get a PhD for "hiding profits to make it seem like they have a 10% profit margin" which is also, incidentally, one if the high points of American comedy along with Richard Pryor, Steve Martin, Emo, and that Dane guy.

"We only make 10% profit margins...." say their financial reports.... LOL I almost die laughing each time they say it! It sounds so real, absolutely hilarious. Someone give them a medal, I have never heard something that funny in years. "We had $10 billion of miscellaneous costs..." AHAHAHAHAHA Big Oil, you've done it again. Priceless.

Who knew the American accounting system would be the medium for such ribald comic shennanigans?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
I love oil ! I use it all the time ,, it moves me and my family to school, church, vacations and we have a great life because of it.

Maybe your kids life won't be so great, with their reliance on the whims of foriegn nations, bloody wars fought in persuit of oil, massive air pollution and global warming.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Thank you Big Oil for:

Suppressing alternative energy sources
Encouraging automakers to build inefficient vehicles
Lobbying Congress to add loopholes to any MPG mandate
Increasing air and water pollution
Directly increasing the wealth and influence of extreme regimes in the Middle East
Indirectly causing Urban Sprawl and contributing to the ever increasing waistlines of Americans

Doubling the price of your main product so we can all have a good debate about our future
Doubling the price of your main product so clean alternatives become more feasible
Doubling the price of your main product so the politicians in your pockets get voted out
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:17 pm

..in the meantime oil has dropped to 116 $...(at least one hour ago..)
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 1):
Why settle for a 13mpg car, when a 30mpg car can be engineered?

Because millions of Americans can afford to drive such a vehicle and enjoy doing so. Build the same vehicle without any compromises at 30 mpg and consumers would buy it.
 
AGM100
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:34 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 6):
Same logic no?

My point was that I drive efficient vehicles to protect my money , not to hurt any business. It's personal responsibility , not some citizen of the world movement.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 4):
big oil" companies are dependent on the "oil services" companies to actually "find it", "drill it" and"pump it out".

Still factors into the cost per barrel , and the major oil companies spend alot of money contracting exploration and drilling operations as well.
[

Quoting Tugger (Reply 4):
"Schlumberger Limited is the world's largest oilfield services corporation operating in approximately 80 countries, with about 80,000 people of 140 nationalities.

O ya , love that ( SLB ) its a great company . I did not mean to imply that the international companies were inferior... they are not. Its funny I do not here them talked about much in the press .. its usually American companies.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Maybe your kids life won't be so great, with their reliance on the whims of foriegn nations, bloody wars fought in persuit of oil, massive air pollution and global warming.



Well my friend I will be in line on the day that I can go buy a car that I dont need to put gas into.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
mt99
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Because millions of Americans can afford to drive such a vehicle and enjoy doing so. Build the same vehicle without any compromises at 30 mpg and consumers would buy it.

You do'nt have to compromise. That is where American ingenuity, know how and technology comes in. I mean, you are not doubting that it exists ..right?
Step into my office, baby
 
mt99
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:43 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
..in the meantime oil has dropped to 116 $...(at least one hour ago..)

Who hoo!!!.. Bring on the Hummers, Tahoes!!!

It cant be like that anymore. I think we as as society have turned a corner of sorts. I believe that the close call of $5/gallon gas struck a chord with the general public and scared us.

So even if the price of oil goes down to below $100, i would expect calls for conservation and fuel economy and "green" energy to continue. To a point we got "scared straight".
Step into my office, baby
 
PPVRA
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:14 pm

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Suppressing alternative energy sources
Encouraging automakers to build inefficient vehicles
Lobbying Congress to add loopholes to any MPG mandate

Animistic fallacy. Look it up.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Increasing air and water pollution

It's not their fault, it's us who want/need oil.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):

Directly increasing the wealth and influence of extreme regimes in the Middle East

How is this their fault? They are only in business because we need them.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):

Indirectly causing Urban Sprawl and contributing to the ever increasing waistlines of Americans

Ah hell no, that is ENTIRELY the fault of government non-stop building of "freeways". And yes, the "free" does matter too.

So much for politicians having such a keen future view. We need them to plan for the future, right?? Good thing they completely know what they are doing.

[Edited 2008-08-05 13:16:23]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 4):

"Schlumberger Limited is the world's largest oilfield services corporation operating in approximately 80 countries, with about 80,000 people of 140 nationalities. Schlumberger supplies a wide range of products and services from seismic acquisition and processing; formation evaluation; well testing and directional drilling to well cementing and stimulation; artificial lift and well completions; and consulting, software and information management."

Dont get me started on Schlumberger! The gits are building a large tower next to their factory, and it blocks my view of ABZ runway :@ . Oh, and their downhole guages suck too  Silly

I'd like to thank big oil too. Without them I wouldnt be living free of charge in a 4 bedroom house, raking up expenses. Big grin

So i'd also like to raise a glass to Big Oil.
 
TylerDurden
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:29 pm

Actually, my oil and gas royalties have been paying big time this year...
And I made more than a few nickels on the speculation market..
So, really, thank you, big oil...


Oh, and my very smart broker!
 
AGM100
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting Tylerdurden (Reply 15):
Actually, my oil and gas royalties have been paying big time this year...

I was not positioned very well, although I did have XTO at 31.. sold off @ 62.00 that was the best hit I had.  praise  thank you...

I was holding Devon (DVN) for a while , but bought in and out at the wrong time A big negative KKaching !

How about a stock tip their Tyler  bitelip  ,, are you buying into the Diamond off shore ? (DO) I have my finger on the trigger but just cant pull it yet. I think it may be hold for a bit until things settle,
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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scbriml
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:16 pm



Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Suppressing alternative energy sources
Encouraging automakers to build inefficient vehicles
Lobbying Congress to add loopholes to any MPG mandate
Increasing air and water pollution
Directly increasing the wealth and influence of extreme regimes in the Middle East
Indirectly causing Urban Sprawl and contributing to the ever increasing waistlines of Americans

You could be more wrong, but not a lot.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
"We only make 10% profit margins...." say their financial reports.... LOL I almost die laughing each time they say it!

Why not share some of your obvious financial expertise and explain how they cook their books. I'm intrigued.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
TylerDurden
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:40 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
How about a stock tip their Tyler

Buy low....sell high!
 Smile

If I seriously knew how to do it myself...I wouldn't have a broker.

I bought into oil and gas wells at the tender age of 25..near Port Lavaca. It's taken four years to get three productive wells drilled.

The big windfall will be in about 60 days....since they pay 90 days after pumping.....
Kinda wish I held out for the expensive car!

Good Luck.
 
Flighty
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:49 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 17):
Why not share some of your obvious financial expertise and explain how they cook their books. I'm intrigued.

Since I've been inside a few companies before, I know it's possible to report profits when you have none. This is known as creative profit enhancing accounting practices. It's extremely common.

What is less common, is a desire and need to hide tremendous huge profit windfalls. You expense huge amounts paying down future infrastructure. You pay off old debts early. You do everything possible to avoid showing taxable profits, which of course go partly to the government.

ExxonMobil, and the rest employ top notch accountants. It is not illegal to smooth profits. But a wide range of profit-smoothers can go into any particular industry. You sink money in today that will give unnatural stability in future years. The point is, you can say you paid outside amounts for goods and services just to claim the money is gone. This is largely what oil companies are doing -- "investing" billions in the future. Except the financial accounting for these investments is made to look as unprofitable as possible for the present period. This is all so oil execs can go on TV and say "our costs have skyrocketed and we're not that profitable." This is pure creative accounting. In times of struggle, they would pull from this magical equity they have been pouring investment into during these fat years.

When a firm makes too much money, there are all kinds of ways to avoid booking those profits... if that is truly their desire. It's unusual. But it's exactly what is happening here. Their motivation is to hide profits. There are a million ways to do it legally. THerefore that is exactly what they are doing. An oil professional could offer more insight.
 
AirStairs
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:56 pm

I am interested to hear what big-oil bashers would propose to do if the oilmen CEOs and engineers and seismologists and service companies decided to close up shop, refusing permanently to reenter the industry and taking all of their supply chains and discovery and extraction technology and resources with them? Since they are allegedly the pollution problem they could just as easily become the remedy by ceasing operations altogether and I have no doubts that most have a comfy nest egg, IRA and a country house. There is no glut of experienced American geoscientists and new equipment and distribution infrastructure would take years if not decades to recreate. Small oil firms would not have the economies of scale to price it any cheaper than big firms do.

We can't reasonably maintain our obscene standards of living in the United States without lots of oil moving through advanced and high-input supply and value-added chains and yet somehow our expectations become the fault and doing of the supplier. If you don't like the business you are free to stick it to them all and close your wallet: that you are on a computer indicates that opting out is still too high a price to pay for those ideals, which is fine, but don't pretend that the decision is not entirely yours to make.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Increasing air and water pollution

This is entirely the decision of the consumer. Maybe you should be thanking Henry Ford and subsequent assembly-line manufacturers and urban planners for the dependence on automobiles. Barring the spill or accident that is uncommon by any standard, the corporation has a much smaller hand in air and water pollution than the consumer does.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
"We only make 10% profit margins...." say their financial reports....

I am not sure what sound evidence you can provide for their cooking of the books; but, you write like it is some kind of crime to maximize your margins. It is not in any other industry or sector and would undermine the principles of entrepreneurship if it were.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 4):
And the largest oil service company is Schlumberger, originally a French company that is now incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles.



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):
O ya , love that ( SLB ) its a great company . I did not mean to imply that the international companies were inferior... they are not. Its funny I do not here them talked about much in the press .. its usually American companies.

True that Schlumberger is incoporated in the Antilles, but it is essentially now an American company headquartered in and operating from Houston.  bigthumbsup 
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Suppressing alternative energy sources

For the cynic there is no question they have done this but they are innocent until proven guilty. But if they are guilty it should go down as one of the most anti-capitalist white collar crimes and the boards of all 5 big oil compainies should go to jail.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Encouraging automakers to build inefficient vehicles

No Proof, and the automakers shot themselves in the foot for being shortsighted. So do you think they will still listen to Exxon now

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Lobbying Congress to add loopholes to any MPG mandate

True but its our fault for electing corrupt scum to serve them and not the people.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Increasing air and water pollution

Any industry does this, big oil are better now but they used to be a lot worse.

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Directly increasing the wealth and influence of extreme regimes in the Middle East

Its not just the US that needs oil they would have gotten Rich from some other country (cough India and China).

Quoting National757 (Reply 2):
Indirectly causing Urban Sprawl and contributing to the ever increasing waistlines of Americans

Urban Sprawl was desired by the people and seen as the American Dream per say and it the fault of the person for being overweight (in most cases).

I think these companies have operated in an ethical manner but the cynic in me believes sometimes that they are all participating in accounting scandals to falsify their statement of earnings and balance sheets in order to increase their costs to make their profit margins lower than they actually are.

This is because if the public discovered that they were making 30% of each gallon of gas sold then they would be hell to pay.

But I have no basis for this anyways.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:07 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
When a firm makes too much money, there are all kinds of ways to avoid booking those profits... if that is truly their desire. It's unusual. But it's exactly what is happening here. Their motivation is to hide profits. There are a million ways to do it legally. THerefore that is exactly what they are doing. An oil professional could offer more insight.

Either point to some evidence or stop posting this malarkey. These are publicly held companies and hiding profits doesn't do them any bit of good at all, not to mention it saddles executive bonus packages. The 10-12% margin figure is accurate for most large oil companies, in some cases it's more and in some cases it's less. There are actual numbers to back that up, where are yours?

Instead of focusing on the very real issues of energy independence and alternatives for the future, you distract from them with this pointed garbage about book-cooking at Big Oil.  Yeah sure
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Flighty
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 20):
I am not sure what sound evidence you can provide for their cooking of the books; but, you write like it is some kind of crime to maximize your margins. It is not in any other industry or sector and would undermine the principles of entrepreneurship if it were.

This is a case where lying, and breaking the law, are 2 different things. The oil companies could be "unprofitable" today if they just extended their tactics just a bit further. But nobody would believe them. So, like many companies, they are employing "profit management" or "profit smoothing" to craft a profit number that seems reasonable (yet thin) to the casual observer. The true operational mechanics are known only to a few people.

It is all about impressions. Oil companies know they must report very healthy profits. Yet, they are also majorly inflating costs so they can re-shuffle some of this "blank money" around into little nests here and there, rainy day money if you will. It is perfectly legal.

I will give an example in the airline business. If you are making big profits, you can buy additional airplanes, or accelerate your payment schedule. You can fudge depreciation a little bit. Voila, your costs went up. If you want that money back? You can sell the equity in those airplanes to someone else, like IFLC. Airlines have done this since time immemorial. It is all about "operating costs," which is a black box that only company insiders can really discern. That's where all the magic happens. Funny enough, today's oil profit discussions often revolve around these remarkable "operating costs" the oil companies seem to be booking lately!
 
Flighty
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:13 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
Either point to some evidence or stop posting this malarkey. These are publicly held companies and hiding profits doesn't do them any bit of good at all, not to mention it saddles executive bonus packages.

Well, I am not citing sources. This is not scholarly reading, and for that I apologize. My name is Flighty, an anonymous internet poster. I am stating normal realities about P&L and what goes into it. There is a ton of leeway. It is an art form. If you feel that's not the case, I will gladly accept YOUR anonymous internet posting to that effect.
 
N1120A
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:28 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Build the same vehicle without any compromises at 30 mpg and consumers would buy it.

This guy already has.

http://www.saeenergy.com/

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):

Because millions of Americans can afford to drive such a vehicle and enjoy doing so.

Um, not nearly as many can afford driving such anymore.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:29 am



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
The oil companies have done a great job of getting the energy we need and putting it on just about every street corner so you can fill up anytime you need to.

Yup. And destroying the environment.

And then, when there's an issue with oil...we all get screwed.

Thanks, Big Oil. I can't wait until the day you go the way of the East India Company.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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STT757
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:42 am

Funny thing I saw this weekend while in Washington DC, I was at a Nationals game with my brother Friday night (Nationals finally broke a nine game losing streak while we were there) at their gorgeous new stadium which is called National Park (no naming rights, yet). It is heavily advertised by ExxonMobil, in between innings they had some contest where an entire row won $25 Gas cards from ExxonMobil.

The young girl who was passing out the cards being broadcast on the jumbo tron (and on tv?) handed them out to everyone except this one couple. The wife eagerly took the card while the husband tried (forcibly) to prevent her, when the young girl got to the husband she tried to give him the card several times. The whole thing is playing out on the jumbo tron, the girl kept trying and the guy was getting really pissed off. So the girl gives up trying to give him the card and continues down the row, the husband then nearly tackles his wife out of her seat, wrestles the card she got out of her hands. He then stands up (still on the jumbo tron) and throws the card off the deck into the crowd below, to the huge cheers of the crowd.

Take that ExxonMobil.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AirStairs
Posts: 390
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:16 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):

And then, when there's an issue with oil...we all get screwed.

You would rather corporations simply not go through the expensive process of exploration, drilling and distributing oil and refined products at all? "We" only get "screwed" because we as individuals choose to structure our lives in a way that bets and depends on cheap resources, and in the US have been either too shortsighted to see that oil would run out, or too comfortable to care.
 
max550
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Our government does nothing and makes 10% per gallon.

Except for build the roads we drive on to use the oil.
Regulating the oil companies so we don't have environmental disasters.
Funding and regulating airports and ATC so we can nearly eliminate aircraft disasters.
Giving the oil companies rights to the oil that they drill.

I don't like everything the government does, but to say that they get 10% for doing nothing is crazy. Maybe we should put oil companies in charge and see what happens.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:08 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
Either point to some evidence or stop posting this malarkey. These are publicly held companies and hiding profits doesn't do them any bit of good at all, not to mention it saddles executive bonus packages. The 10-12% margin figure is accurate for most large oil companies, in some cases it's more and in some cases it's less. There are actual numbers to back that up, where are yours?

Hiding Profits give them a huge PR benefit, the oil companies on the most part can get away with saying that they are getting screwed by OPEC and they are in it with the consumer. This covers their behinds until the next quarter when they do it again with the same results as we can't really boycott them. However if profit hiding is going on and is ever revealed although not illegal it would make Enron seem like a child crime even though that accounting scandal was illegal.

There are plenty of people that would still be mad that a 1% margin which would have been about $1.2 billion is this past quarter is too much and some like the Wall Street trader who isn't happy with the return and wanted more. You just have to decide what side you are on.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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Revelation
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:31 am



Quoting Max550 (Reply 29):

Except for build the roads we drive on to use the oil.
Regulating the oil companies so we don't have environmental disasters.
Funding and regulating airports and ATC so we can nearly eliminate aircraft disasters.
Giving the oil companies rights to the oil that they drill.

Not to mention paying for the most expensive military in the world to protect the "vital national interests" which "coincedentally" happen to coincide directly with those of Big Oil.

We need to get serious about Energy Independence, and Big Oil's greed has made that easy to do.

The threads here cheering $120/bbl oil make me laugh. US demand for gasoline is down. Everyone's talking about "staycations". Ford is shutting down truck plants and retooling them for European designed small cars. Chevy is producing an electic car (really a plug-in hybrid) in 2010. People that used to fill their tanks now buy just what they need to get by. Everywhere I look lifesyles are changing, and I doubt the genie is going back into the bottle.

Are people here really saying tons of technology will be applied to make sure every can keep affodring to drive huge pickup trucks? Gee, I hope no is holding thier breath waiting for that.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 29):
I don't like everything the government does, but to say that they get 10% for doing nothing is crazy..

 checkmark 
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Zone1
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:12 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
Yet, they are also majorly inflating costs so they can re-shuffle some of this "blank money" around into little nests here and there, rainy day money if you will. It is perfectly legal.

Refining oil is not as profitable as you might think. Because most of the US oil companies have to buy much of their oil on the open market, their maximum profit is what is called the crack spread--the amount of money you can sell all the components in a barrel of crude after refining. For a couple of days in May the crack spread was negative, so refineries were guaranteed a loss.
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:53 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
You expense huge amounts paying down future infrastructure. You pay off old debts early. You do everything possible to avoid showing taxable profits, which of course go partly to the government.

Is any of this illegal? Their accounts are all audited and published. Nothing they do can't be done by anyone else, so what exactly are you accusing them of?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Yup. And destroying the environment.

So that's all big oil's fault? The consumer has absolutely nothing to do with it?  rotfl 

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Thanks, Big Oil. I can't wait until the day you go the way of the East India Company.

Yes, your life would be very different without big oil. I'm just not convinced it would be better.
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baroque
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:08 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):
I did not mean to imply that the international companies were inferior... they are not. Its funny I do not here them talked about much in the press .. its usually American companies.

 banghead   banghead  Then again you are reading US press.

First oil wells probably drilled in Baku 1848 and in Poland 1854 not PA in 1859 (Canada first 1857).

As has been pointed out, most of the early geophysics techniques were developed outside the US.

Turbo drilling, from Russia. And a fair proportion of exploration techniques also came from Russia, including the origins of basin modelling - Lopatin (although it is true that the German Karweil showed the way slightly earlier than Lopatin).

At various times, the US oil industry has been way behind, but it has mostly been much better financed.

The original funding for BP incidentally mostly came from an Aus gold mine at Mt Morgan via a bank manager (and son of a solicitor) William Knox D'arcy. D'Arcy ran out of money, but before the telegram could arrive to stop the drilling, they struck oil at Masjid-i-Sulaiman in Iran. The site:
http://www.dukeswoodoilmuseum.co.uk/british_petroleum.htm
Has a copy of the letter announcing the discovery.
 
AGM100
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:28 pm



Quoting Max550 (Reply 29):
Except for build the roads we drive on to use the oil.
Regulating the oil companies so we don't have environmental disasters.

My point was only that taxes increase the costs of oil.... You are absolutely correct in your point , I am not suggesting that should not be taxed. Energy should indeed be taxed I have no problem at all with that. My problem is that we have representatives who chastise "big oil" like they are some evil empire. I was not born last night , I know their is a certain amount of corruption in energy sector corporations . But do we need our do nothing congressmen grandstanding and using "big oil" as a condensending remark to imply misdeeds. Its week , and shallow of them IMO

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
Then again you are reading US press

Correct , but I really have not heard anyone suggesting China, Ven , Arabia , Russia , Iran or anyone else .. not drill because its bad for the environment. You are correct that I am referring to our current dilemma here in the US.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
As has been pointed out, most of the early geophysics techniques were developed outside the US.



Bad choice of words on my part Baroque , My point was only that as US citizens we should be proud of our companies rather than vilifying them all the time. I argue this point with my friends who do hate the oil companies by pointing out to them to imagine the alternative. Imagine if we did not have Exxon, Chevron , Shell , Connoco..etc. Imagine all the positives these companies have brought to our lives. Thats all , just my point of view I guess.
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seb146
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:31 pm

So, because the profit margin only shows 10%, we Americans should not be pissed off? That is what I always hear and it maked me cringe. That 10% profit margin that big oil shows translates to over $11 BILLION in one quarter. In 3 months, ExxonMobile made over $11 billion dollars free and clear. That was a record over the last time, which was a quarterly profit of about $11 billion from big oil. Which was a record over the last time, which was a quarterly profit of almost $11 billion from big oil.

But, it is only 10%, so we shoud not be upset. Just ignore the $11 billion dollars per quarter ExxonMobile makes every three months. Just feel sorry for them they only show 10% profit when it is time to show their books.

Also, ignore the fact that some of that $11 billion comes from government subsadies.

Poor, poor big oil. Let's all feel sorry for them as they cry over their paultry $11 billion per quarter while the rest of us have to take 2 or 3 jobs just to scrimp by....
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:38 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
My point was only that taxes increase the costs of oil....

A windfall profits tax will not increase the cost of oil. It will give the oil company accountants an incentive to do more of what was mentioned earlier: paying down debts and prepaying on investments, as opposed to handing the windfall to the shareholders. And note in many cases, the ones making the decisions (oil executives) are also large shareholders.

How is it that the centers of oil production are a "vital national interest" when it comes to defending them, yet when the very struggle to defend them results in windfall profits, all we hear about is how the oil companies should be left alone? Shouldn't they be bearing a large part of the cost to keep their product flowing?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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baroque
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
Imagine if we did not have Exxon, Chevron , Shell , Connoco..etc. Imagine all the positives these companies have brought to our lives. Thats all , just my point of view I guess.

You might find that the Dutch think they own a bit of Shell, although there is (or used to be) a Shell USA. The majors have brought positives and some have developed useful techniques - Exxon and seismic stratigraphy. They have also tried some astonishing things such as trying to patent palynology after it was in the public domain for about 30 years - a bit like trying to patent maths!

However, by and large the non majors and the medium sized companies have been far more adventurous - and arguably more useful.

Unocal, Occy and Phillips have perhaps been much more useful per dollar. Pity Atlantic Richfield was swallowed up by BP.

Of the majors, BP has arguably the best discovery record. Shell by and large an appalling one - I think I have mentioned the joke that if you want to find oil, just drill within 100 km of the Shell local Headquarters. Which is not to say Shell does not do excellent work too.

Also worth noting that British Gas (later privatised) and Statoil (Norway) have demonstrated that state owned organizations can be excellent at oil and gas exploration.

Somewhere about 1990, Exxon seemed to get into the control of an extremely conservative bunch. Texas (as you might expect) has the best and the worst of the oil industry.

Probably the most unfairly maligned lot are the Russians. Their environmental record is awful, but some of their exploration has been top class.

The Chinese are busy as a bunch of bees, very idiosyncratic, but given the amount of effort they throw at oil exploration, not surprising they are being quite successful.

If you want to improve your oil industry, take 90% of the financial folk out and dispose of them - humanely if possible!  Wow!

US exploration is hindered by the restricted access to most kinds of data. I just got a file today that plots ALL of the exploration wells in Australia over Google Earth. With a bit more effort, I can retrieve completion reports for ALL of them. A little more effort again, and I can get samples from them. In the US, to simplify, this is basically impossible. Within 3 years of drilling, all information for Aus exploration has to be released. If the US did this you might find exploration was a bit easier, cheaper and more effective. But I will not hold my breath!

One large US major was so secretive they refused to tell me the well name, even though that was public record - even for a well with tight status. In the end they realised that this was dumb as they themselves no longer knew where to file the data - so we called it Claytons No 1 - the well you drill when you are not drilling a well. So that reminds me, after disposing of those accountants, move on to the lawyers, they are worse!

Rant over.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 36):
So, because the profit margin only shows 10%, we Americans should not be pissed off? That is what I always hear and it maked me cringe. That 10% profit margin that big oil shows translates to over $11 BILLION in one quarter. In 3 months, ExxonMobile made over $11 billion dollars free and clear. That was a record over the last time, which was a quarterly profit of about $11 billion from big oil. Which was a record over the last time, which was a quarterly profit of almost $11 billion from big oil.

What margin would you be happy with?

If you ever decide to invest in Mutual Funds or by Energy stocks then a margin of less than 8-10% would be meaningless as you get more from a savings account, and these returns are about average for businesses. If they dropped their margin their stock would plummit and then they would be near going out of business. Also no one ever talks about the fact that their costs are records as well.

Be outraged that they are not investing long term in the future and essentially pocketing the profits, which will mainly hurt the company itself because someone else will be the big energy giant when oil goes belly-up. Or be pissed when they say they need more tax cuts. They are not doing anything illegal (that hasn't been uncovered) but I do have my suspicions that they might be lobbying to suppress the development of alternatives or doing profit reducing tactics.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 36):
But, it is only 10%, so we should not be upset. Just ignore the $11 billion dollars per quarter ExxonMobile makes every three months. Just feel sorry for them they only show 10% profit when it is time to show their books.

Hey Wall street was actually not satisfied with that because they expected a higher return, that is kind of disgusting but the investor only sees the percentage of the $11 billion that they have stock in.
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:30 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Unocal, Occy and Phillips have perhaps been much more useful per dollar.

Phillips has grown from a struggling small independent run by oilmen, through various acquisitions and mergers, to ConocoPhillips, one of the big boys run by businessmen. Most of the small, independent oil companies have disappeared. Those that are left find life very tough trying to compete with the big boys.

While on the subject of big feats by small companies, Phillips "jack-up" of its Norwegian Ekofisk infrastructure must go down as one of the Worlds most amazing pieces of engineering. A total of 7 platforms were simultaneously jacked-up by a total of 6m in a jaw-dropping operation. Somewhere, I have seen a time-lapse video of it, I'll see if I can find it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekofisk

Quote:
The total lifting capacity of all these cylinders was approximately 80 000 tons and was published in the Guinness book of records as being the largest jack-up ever.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
baroque
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:32 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 40):
While on the subject of big feats by small companies, Phillips "jack-up" of its Norwegian Ekofisk infrastructure must go down as one of the Worlds most amazing pieces of engineering.

Ekofisk is all sort of amazing things. Including being produced from the Cretaceous chalk for more than 7 years under the incorrect impression that the source was overpressured and overlying Paleocene sands, when it was actually (IIRC) underlying, and at that stage undrilled, Kimeridgian shales. But a great discovery and a tricky field to produce.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 40):
Most of the small, independent oil companies have disappeared.

Still quite a few - thank goodness!! Perhaps they should not be named, but these days also a bit more widely spread geographically compared with say 1970.

One advantage the smaller companies have is that their accountants do not impose such impossibly large minimum sizes for discoveries as do some majors. I am not sure what has happened to the lower size limits as oil prices have leaped, but for a long time the largest companies have been inhibited by ROI requirements that meant finding fields of a size that by and large do not exist.

In the early 70s, one large company specifically preferred to find 2 fields of about 500 million barrels, rather than one 1 billion barrel field because it thought it could produce the two fields faster than one larger field. Then it realised that billion barrel fields were rare, and set a limit around 100 million to 200 million and as a result walked away from quite a number of what are now considered large oil provinces.

Also many companies were slow to value natural gas. In the Timor Gap, Phillips was early into that with a field called Bayu followed up by BHP at the nearly Undan, mainly gas but currently being produced dominantly for the condensate. So they won both ways you could say.

Bayu means wind and was a good choice for the name of a gas discovery! Not sure about the relevance of Undan - pelican. The choice of well names is a constant battle to get highly inappropriate names from another language used for a field. The rather sober names that are used are a sort of tribute to oil company and Department of Mines vetting systems you could say.
 
seb146
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:11 pm



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 39):
If you ever decide to invest in Mutual Funds or by Energy stocks then a margin of less than 8-10% would be meaningless as you get more from a savings account,

I have not seen anyone complaining about the 10% figure. I see people complaining about $11 billion in three months. If big oil were doing something meaningful instead of land grabs, I would not be as outraged, either. Even with the price of a barrel of oil falling, they are still raking in the dough and I find that outrageous also. I think compairing $11 billion plus per quarter to 10% margin is apples and oranges.
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AGM100
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:49 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 36):
That is what I always hear and it maked me cringe

Seb would you cringe if the oil companies lost money and were laying people off? The way I see it is that it will cycle back down like it was up to 2006 when the industry was way off on profit. Back when I should have bought 100,000 shares of XOM!  flamed 

The other way to look at it is the alternative could be that instead of XOM making 11 billion .. it could be going to another countries company coffers.

I dont know what the answer is to Seb , but I just dont want to go down the road of the Fed taking profits from a company just because they make money.
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:03 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 33):
Is any of this illegal? Their accounts are all audited and published. Nothing they do can't be done by anyone else, so what exactly are you accusing them of?

I am not an accountant, nor a lawyer. Although I have friends and a healthy interest. So don't take me as stating notable facts. Instead, I am arguing logically that companies CAN modify profits, they want to, and there are signs they DO, so I believe they do.

But their "operational" activities include financial transactions. Oddly, our accounting laws are mainly designed to avoid _positive distortions_ of profit, that is, reporting profits when there are none. Booking inventory as sold ahead (before it is sold), and a million other tricks are still tolerated, because they are not _financial_ mis-truths, but _operational_ shennanigans. And short term in nature.

Hiding profits (negatively distorting them) is much more murky. A company is entitled to do a range of balance sheet (cash intensive) operations to solidify their business. They need not report this as profit. For example, ExxonMobil could construct a new World Headquarters using golden bricks. Since this is a business expense, they could conceivably count these gold bricks as an "operational expense" of operating an oil company. Is the US Government really going to investigate what kind of bricks they used? No; nor can they go globetrotting and verify how much is being spent on oil infrastructure.


Corporate auditing is statistically sound and can be done well.. but this is mainly to catch embezzlement at the lower levels. At the top level, strategic decisions can be taken to "smooth out" profits rather than booking them all today (worse yet, distributing them as dividends to shareholders, who pay income tax -- after corporate profit tax was already paid). Oil companies are so big, and international, there are many places to hide money.

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 32):
Because most of the US oil companies have to buy much of their oil on the open market, their maximum profit is what is called the crack spread--the amount of money you can sell all the components in a barrel of crude after refining. For a couple of days in May the crack spread was negative, so refineries were guaranteed a loss.

Oil companies only need to buy oil that is profitable for them. Meanwhile, anything they pump is gravy right now. I am thinking these are the best of times for oil companies. So good, it is becoming politically sensitive. Hence, yet another meta-issue that creates pressure to "smooth" profits, in addition to taxes, regulatory, etc. There are citizens with pitchforks gathering outside the gates! You better believe oil companies want to avoid this kind of attention. Their lawyers and accountants are working overtime, rivaling Mozart and Isaac Newton in terms of creativity.
 
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
I dont know what the answer is to Seb , but I just dont want to go down the road of the Fed taking profits from a company just because they make money.

So maybe the Feds should let XOM hire their own army to guard their oil wells and their own Navy to guard their tankers? Yes, XOM already pays a lot of taxes, but so does every other US-based international corporation.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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baroque
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:37 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
I dont know what the answer is to Seb , but I just dont want to go down the road of the Fed taking profits from a company just because they make money.

So maybe the Feds should let XOM hire their own army to guard their oil wells and their own Navy to guard their tankers? Yes, XOM already pays a lot of taxes, but so does every other US-based international corporation.

Ummm, a number of companies do hire out an army in a number of countries. I will point if you look. Sometimes it is the national army and sometimes, probably not!

As for the tax issue, here is a suggestion straight from GWB - and a good one too - introduce tax imputation for dividends. This means that the shareholders get credit for tax paid by the company. There is an incentive for companies to pay dividends and the shareholders get really really angry if the company has not paid its taxes so they can have the tax imputed to the dividends.

The problems that Scbriml implies really are a major factor, but with one stroke, having dividend imputation removes most of the incentive to get up to these games.

Just look at the dividends paid by the average Aus company compared with those paid by many US companies. Pay dividends or go to the wall is what happens. And as far as the country is concerned, it wins in terms of company tax.

Probably have not explained it well, but it is a good system, and GWB did want to introduce it. There, I have said a good word for him.  bigthumbsup 
 
AirStairs
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 36):
So, because the profit margin only shows 10%, we Americans should not be pissed off?

Why should we Americans be pissed off if XOM showed a margin of 90%? Why should we be pissed of if it reports earnings of $111 billion? There is simply no reason to be mad about this.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42):
I have not seen anyone complaining about the 10% figure. I see people complaining about $11 billion in three months. If big oil were doing something meaningful instead of land grabs, I would not be as outraged, either.

So harvesting and distributing your most critical energy source is...unimportant?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42):
Even with the price of a barrel of oil falling, they are still raking in the dough and I find that outrageous also.

You find it outrageous that a private corporation is profitable when most of the rest of the private sector is faltering. That leaves a bitter taste of populism in my mouth.  crazy 

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42):
I think compairing $11 billion plus per quarter to 10% margin is apples and oranges.

You think that because you fail to consider the input costs of being in the oil business.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42):
I have not seen anyone complaining about the 10% figure. I see people complaining about $11 billion in three months.

I think this is because $11 billion is very hard for the average person to comprehend even though it is only 10% of their revenue, the same can be said that the US has a $9 trillion debt but it only is about 4% of the GDP.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42):
If big oil were doing something meaningful instead of land grabs, I would not be as outraged, either.

This is the real reason that so many people are mad at big oil and they use their profits as an excuse.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 42):
I think compairing $11 billion plus per quarter to 10% margin is apples and oranges.

No its not but the when they report and the media mentions it they should be required to also state the costs associated with that profit, but sadly the media doesn't do this because it isn't as big of a story.

Also try and look at it another way if you had one share of stock in Exxon in the past 3 months you would have made about $2-3.
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seb146
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RE: Thank You "Big Oil "!

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:31 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
The other way to look at it is the alternative could be that instead of XOM making 11 billion .. it could be going to another countries company coffers.

Like Iraq?

I would like to know how much they really make. How much do they pull in before the accountants decide to write out billions and billions of dollars to make it look like only 10%?
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