Beaucaire
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The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:28 pm

With the hasty decision to agree on the installation of an American missile-installation in Poland the Geo-strategist might have some new meat for digestion...
Reactions from Russian military just took 24 hour to hit the wires- Polish missile sites would-of course- now be considered as a first strike targets in case of a major conflict .
For many military analysts there was absolutely no dam reason to proceed with the project to install those missiles-specially when using Iran as a lame-duck argument.
If you want to intercept Iranian long rang missiles targeting Europe,you rather install your anti-missile defence rather in Greece ,Turkey or Italy and not just in front of the Russians,who immediately will smell the fake reasons used for the charade..
In pure technical terms a ship-based anti-missile systems would be much more efficient -it could be based in the Black-sea or the Eastern-mediterranean rather than just under the Russians nose.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003620.html

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...N_5xk8Z20qcSJG0MilftDpsLwD92INHO80
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iliribdl
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:39 pm

It's great that Poland agreed to the deal, Europe needs protection from evil people that will do anything in their power to down democracy. (putin)
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LAXintl
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:59 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
hasty decision

And a very good one inlight of the bullish actions of the Russiana

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Reactions from Russian military just took 24 hour to hit the wires- Polish missile sites would-of course- now be considered as a first strike targets in case of a major conflict .

And this exactly shows the intentions of Russia. Europe will hopefully wake up and understand that Russian Bear is not their best friend, and its quite dangerous to be in bed with it.

Anyhow - why do the Russians care about a defensive system if they have no threating intentions against Europe?

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Reactions from Russian military just took 24 hour to hit the wires- Polish missile sites would-of course- now be considered as a first strike targets in case of a major conflict .

Here you are wrong. In order to intercept a missle, the further back you are the better.

The closer one is to the launch site, the more difficult it is intercept as reaction time is reduced and the trejectory might require one to chase the missle as it move away from the interceptor site.
Being farther back, and closer to potential targets is much better for an interceptor, as it not only allows for more time, however one is interception a target as its pretty much commitied and in likely on an entry trajectory path that is very rather easy to calculate and is very unlikely to change in decent, unlike during the assent phase if one was close to the launch site.
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Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:59 pm

Personally, I figure that Europe ought to be doing this themselves. Technically speaking, if Europe is in range of Iranian missiles loaded with whatever they can cook up, then it's incumbent on the EU to step up to the plate and protect their own backsides.

Europe's got a real problem with Putin and his crew next door.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Beaucaire
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:11 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
Personally, I figure that Europe ought to be doing this themselves. Technically speaking, if Europe is in range of Iranian missiles loaded with whatever they can cook up, then it's incumbent on the EU to step up to the plate and protect their own backsides.

Europe does not have any issue with Iranian missiles -why should it ?
Nobody in Europe is threatening Tehran other than some retarded Generals in Poland or Bernard Kouchner,who made a Freudian slip when he considered to "..carry war to Iran"...
(But who cares about Kouchner or Polish generals anyhow ...)
The Germans have persitantly be reluctant to agree supporting this strange idea-maybe because they are the founders of "Realpolitik..."
If the Americans think they sleep better with a missile -shield against Russian Ballistic missiles,why use Iran as a fake argument?
And if those ant-missile missiles are better working if launched late in order to better track the aggressor's weapon,install them in the UK...you win at least 4 minutes as compared to Poland...
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PPVRA
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trou

Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:20 pm

When was NATO, a defensive alliance, ever a threat to the Soviet Union? Yet it was still seen as a threat.

Was the Warsaw Pact seen with good eyes by the West/NATO?

If the development of defensive weaponry wasn't destabilizing, why is it that it spurs development of new offensive weaponry?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baroque
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:20 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
In pure technical terms a ship-based anti-missile systems would be much more efficient -it could be based in the Black-sea or the Eastern-mediterranean rather than just under the Russians nose.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
Personally, I figure that Europe ought to be doing this themselves. Technically speaking, if Europe is in range of Iranian missiles loaded with whatever they can cook up, then it's incumbent on the EU to step up to the plate and protect their own backsides.

Or more particularly why is the site in N Poland.

A great circle route to London from Tehran goes over S Poland not N Poland. Might be a help for Oslo, is Norway having a problem with Iran?

However, N Poland is on the Gt Circle route to NY. Funny thing that.

What about Los Angeles? Well, near Moscow would be really good to protect LA, so best ask Mr P really niceways.

And why have the detection system so far from the supposed launch area? Why not take up the Russian invitation? Oh they are not to be trusted. Forgot.

I await with interest an explanation of why it is better to DETECT them later in flight, rather than early in their flight.
 
Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:31 pm

That's OK, Europe.

Pull the pillow over your head and pretend that Russia doesn't exist and that you're not within range of Iran's missile program. I don't give a fat rat's ass.

I mean, it worked so well in the thirties, right?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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moo
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
Personally, I figure that Europe ought to be doing this themselves. Technically speaking, if Europe is in range of Iranian missiles loaded with whatever they can cook up, then it's incumbent on the EU to step up to the plate and protect their own backsides.

Problem is, by and large a missile defence shield is largely a method of self-delusion - they cost huge amounts of money, and they guarantee nothing.

So, we practically bankrupt ourselves (the cost of the US system is a projected $53billion for the years 2004 to 2009 - that's huge), and we gain zero protection against massed missile attacks, and basically zero protection against anyone else - our anti-missile shield takes out Irans missile threat, and Irans leaders deliver the (theoretical) nuclear warhead by Ford Pinto.

So, whats actually in it for us? Not a whole lot from what I can see.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:02 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
That's OK, Europe.

Pull the pillow over your head and pretend that Russia doesn't exist and that you're not within range of Iran's missile program. I don't give a fat rat's ass.

Europe has paid a heavy price in casualties throughout the last world-war - on both sides.
So have other countries in different lands-but Europe has to live and deal with Moscow on a day-to -day basis.
The Russians are our neighbours -not like somewhere in the US mid-west where, your major enemies are Halloween pumpkins or crazy weapon-freaks on shoot-out rampages in schools...
We have now economic interests,energy dependencies,common corporations,tourism,renewed trust among people ( if not by politicians..). Russians are all over the place in Europe,Middle East,Turkey..they are rather considered (slightly alcoholic ) customers than enemies-which is great !
So the European perspective is maybe a little different one than the perspective of think-tank driven media-comments in the US about war -mongering Russians.They are not-they are concerned about their backyard falling apart into the hands of the former enemy and joining a military alliance that has been the educated worst enemy imagination could create.
This has absolutely nothing to do with apeasement or giving in into threats-it has to do with grown confidence among people.
Whenever we speak about Russian-US relations, military aspects dominate the talks-why is that ? It's not like that in Germany,Turkey,Italy or Dubai..maybe a matter of common sens maturity and a strong feeling of being fed up with conflicts.
Why is Condoleezza in her rethoric better than a Russian foreign minister ? She is not-she has a different perspective -that's all.
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Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 8):
So, whats actually in it for us? Not a whole lot from what I can see.

I dunno....is it protecting the Falklands? You ARE there, aren't you? On the other hand yours could be a flag of convenience like mine. I do claim the tricolor of course, with some small modifications.

I do not see that there's anything in it for Europe that I am willing to pay for as a resident of a midwestern state, particularly if my government has to borrow the money from the Chinese to build it....and that's the big distinction.

They're big boys now, way I see it. Dealing with Russia is your own lookout.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trou

Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:15 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
If the Americans think they sleep better with a missile -shield against Russian Ballistic missiles,why use Iran as a fake argument?

There's no fake argument, the missile defense shield is intended to protect against a country like Iran who has a small arsenal. There will only be ten interceptor missiles in Europe, that is more than enough to knock out anything Iran could put up. It's no where near adequate against Russia who still has "thousands" of Nuclear warheads, if the system were designed to defend against the Russian arsenal there would be hundreds if not over a thousand of these interceptor missiles spread out across Europe as Hawk missiles were during the Cold War.

For the Russians to defeat the Missile defense system they need to launch 11 missiles, there are only ten interceptor missiles. The system is designed to protect against Countries like Iran, who would only be able to scratch a couple long range missiles together.
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moo
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 10):
I do not see that there's anything in it for Europe that I am willing to pay for as a resident of a midwestern state, particularly if my government has to borrow the money from the Chinese to build it....and that's the big distinction.

As a Subject of Her Royal Majesty, I would prefer it if you didn't waste your money either - but you aren't doing it for altruistic reasons, as the missile shield is protecting your country as well, and its better to shoot down the (potentially radioactive and toxic) missiles over someone elses territory than your own.
 
Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:52 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 12):
As a Subject of Her Royal Majesty, I would prefer it if you didn't waste your money either - but you aren't doing it for altruistic reasons, as the missile shield is protecting your country as well, and its better to shoot down the (potentially radioactive and toxic) missiles over someone elses territory than your own.

I do not see what being a subject of the Missus at Windsor has to do with it, although her face is plastered all over currency up north-I'm at a loss to explain that and it'll only get worse when His Nibs becomes His Royal Nibs....oh, well, nevermind....where was I?

The canard about wanting to drop them in other people's back yards rather than our own is, well, bogus. That presupposes that those missiles would be intended strictly for we'uns-and that's a big mistake to make, m'good fellow.

I think the idea is that they'd burn up in the atmosphere. It's simply easier to shoot down a moving target if you're standing still and closer to it, as any trapshooter could tell you...reduces the variables? Better to have them burn up in the atmosphere and crash rather than get where they're going to do what they're intended to, don't you see?

The other point is that the Iranians do not currently have a launch vehicle capable of reaching these shores. The Russians do, but that is a subject of M.A.D., which is still in existence as a normative force. That's really not where the threat originates.

Here's a pretty good rundown on their program.

http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief005-26.htm

and a range map.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
OV735
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:54 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9):
Whenever we speak about Russian-US relations, military aspects dominate the talks-why is that ? It's not like that in Germany,Turkey,Italy or Dubai..maybe a matter of common sens maturity and a strong feeling of being fed up with conflicts.

I would argue that Germany, Turkey, Italy or Dubai are rather blue-eyed. Believing that an aggressive nation that has murdered, oppressed and persecuted millions and millions of people over the last century (and gotten away with it, mainly because they were on the winning side of the WWII), has somehow changed into a peace-loving democracy over the few last decades is a bit naive, in my opinion. Russia is a growing threat, and will remain one. Germany as the European leading industrial country is of course deeply dependent on Russian gas and oil resources, and therefore they don't have the balls to say or do anything bad about Russia (think Gerhard Schröder, for example).

It is very good that the Europeans have a strong feeling of being fed up with conflicts. It is a very welcomed feeling. I love people who have a strong feeling of being fed up with conflicts. In fact, I have that feeling myself even. Except for one thing, of course. The big brown bear living next door is strengthening his military and obviously isn't in that mood yet, as he doesn't miss one chance to threat other countries or even attack them. As Russia grows stronger, it is more and more simple for them to take advantage of the blue-ey... oh, sorry, I mean the common sense and maturity, of the Europeans.  Wink

In that light, I think the missile shield makes perfect sense. Even if it is supposed to operate against the imaginary Iranian nukes, given its position, it has a good chance to work on Russia as well. Which is good, because while Western Europe is hiding their head in sand, the former Eastern Bloc countries like Czech Republic and Poland still remember well what an armed conflict with the Soviet Union feels like.

That's my 2 cents on the matter.
 
Scotty
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9):
This has absolutely nothing to do with apeasement or giving in into threats-it has to do with grown confidence among people.

It has to do with the US starting to believe that the EU represents a more stable power bloc in global economic and political terms than the US and that it offers a more mature negotiating partner for the rest of the world - particularly Russia and countries like Iran which the US only wants to demonise.

Maybe because it IS so sick of the conflicts of the 20th century that Europe wants to make sure it never happens again
 
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:37 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
With the hasty decision to agree on the installation of an American missile-installation in Poland

Just curious, but what was so hasty about it, Beaucaire? Perhaps the formal agreement itself was "hasty"; however, I've been reading about Poland being the base for an anti-missile system for a number of years now.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
If you want to intercept Iranian long rang missiles targeting Europe,you rather install your anti-missile defence rather in Greece ,Turkey or Italy and not just in front of the Russians,who immediately will smell the fake reasons used for the charade..

That MAY (I emphasize the 'may' because there might be technical reasons for doing otherwise) be true, but something tells me the Poles are a lot more amenable to basing the system in their country. As long as it will work being based in Poland then I assume the DoD took the path of least resistance. The Poles are known to appreciate the U.S. more than other European nations. And I've experienced that first-hand in my travels.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
Personally, I figure that Europe ought to be doing this themselves. Technically speaking, if Europe is in range of Iranian missiles loaded with whatever they can cook up, then it's incumbent on the EU to step up to the plate and protect their own backsides.

 checkmark 

Quoting Moo (Reply 8):
Problem is, by and large a missile defence shield is largely a method of self-delusion - they cost huge amounts of money, and they guarantee nothing.

They are not infallible, but they certainly give an aggressor plenty of reasons to second guess the merits of a strike. And as the system matures over the coming years, as it already has been maturing, the success rate will only increase further and the costs will diminish. This is true for any new hi-tech system. The ABMS is no different.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 10):
I do not see that there's anything in it for Europe that I am willing to pay for as a resident of a midwestern state, particularly if my government has to borrow the money from the Chinese to build it....and that's the big distinction.

They're big boys now, way I see it. Dealing with Russia is your own lookout.

 checkmark  I couldn't have stated it any better.
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Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:38 am



Quoting Scotty (Reply 15):
It has to do with the US starting to believe that the EU represents a more stable power bloc in global economic and political terms than the US and that it offers a more mature negotiating partner for the rest of the world - particularly Russia and countries like Iran which the US only wants to demonise.

Maybe because it IS so sick of the conflicts of the 20th century that Europe wants to make sure it never happens again

Lemme see if I got this right.

you think that we think that youse are a more stable block and offersa more mature negotiating partner for the rest of the world? Negotiating what?

Do you think you can buy peace when all Putin has to do is snap his fingers and half the homes in Europe will go unheated this winter?


And the reason for all this is because you're all so sick of the brutality of the 20th century that you want to make sure it never happens again?

The average American could be forgiven for thinking that much of the brutality of the 20th century that you speak of you brought upon yourselves, so, yeah, you probably are sick of it. That's Europe's crazy aunt in the upstairs closet, isn't it.

However, the writing's on the wall....better not fuck with Russia there, fellas.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
baroque
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trou

Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:49 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
Do you think you can buy peace when all Putin has to do is snap his fingers and half the homes in Europe will go unheated this winter?

I rather doubt it. On the other hand, poking a stick up the left nostril of an angry bear will only heat those houses in a one off manner, occasioned if the bear decides to lay waste to more than the fields of the Gauls.

Still no explanation of how a few missiles in N Poland are going to protect, say Paris, or probably even Berlin from an Iranian attack. They still seem to me to be placed to protect NY - though why it needs to be protected from Iran is beyond me.

But best keep a careful eye on all those Ford Pintos (or is that a carful eye?).
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:45 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
Nobody in Europe is threatening Tehran other than some retarded Generals in Poland or Bernard Kouchner,who made a Freudian slip when he considered to "..carry war to Iran"...
(But who cares about Kouchner or Polish generals anyhow ...)

Please show me a quote from these Polish generals you wish to insult concerning Iran.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
If you want to intercept Iranian long rang missiles targeting Europe,you rather install your anti-missile defence rather in Greece ,Turkey or Italy and not just in front of the Russians,who immediately will smell the fake reasons used for the charade..

No...for the same reasons why the interceptors in Poland are poorly located to interecept Russian missiles.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
In pure technical terms a ship-based anti-missile systems would be much more efficient -it could be based in the Black-sea or the Eastern-mediterranean rather than just under the Russians nose.

It would be more efficient, but do you know how much the Russians would bitch and moan then? That would be a REAL threat to their deterrent, one they couldn't track like a fixed site in Alaska.

This is a mountain out of a mole hill by Putin made so that his beloved neo-Stalinist ideals can have some sort of legitimacy.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9):
The Russians are our neighbours -not like somewhere in the US mid-west where, your major enemies are Halloween pumpkins or crazy weapon-freaks on shoot-out rampages in schools...

You might want to ask yourself if the Russians actually view you the same way. They seem quite content to occupy at least half of Europe. And you seem selfish enough to let those people suffer again so that you can continue your consumerism unfettered. If it has nothing to do with appeasement, then stand up for yourselves when necessary and stand together as one EU. Putin's strategy has been divide and conquer. That seems to suggest serious holes that he intends to exploit.

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Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:38 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
Still no explanation of how a few missiles in N Poland are going to protect, say Paris, or probably even Berlin from an Iranian attack.

If I was a betting man, I'd say that the Iranian 'missile threat' is a limited one. That is, if they can get the No Dong, Taepo Dong, Big Dong, or Long Dong Daddy or whatever it is they reverse engineered from the North Koreans and send it off in the general direction of wherever...

I mean, with the technology Iran's got there's really no way of predicting where the sumbitch will fetch up...I think the idea would be to hit it before it reached its apogee and maybe drop it down Chechnya way. Poland's strategically placed to do that. You know, they're almost to where we were with Redstone in the late 40s except that theirs is an unreliable Korean knockoff and they don't yet have a working warhead of the nuke type-but if they can make pesticides they can make Sarin and if they have a pharmaceutical factory they can also probably cook up serviceable anthrax powder too.

Now....thinking further...if the Iranians were to lob one or two missiles in the general direction of Europe, they'd most likely aim them at high value targets that are big-like cities. They're not going to be driving them through bathroom windows like we do because they don't know how to do that. So that's going to serve to restrict the targets and make it a safer bet to shoot em on the wing.

I think it's far more likely that if the Iranians ever get it mastered to where they can launch something with a warhead-biological, chemical, bomb or dirty warhead (most likely) and an idea that it could hit something the target will most likely be Israel. In that case it would be far better for everyone to shoot that sumbitch down, because if they manage to put it on a target, there'll be payback that will make your head spin. It really would be suicidal on the part of the Iranian government to play that card, but I'm not convinced they're not capable of it...for sure the Iranians are several fries short of a Happy Meal.

I may have remarked on this before but any trapshooter will tell you it's best to get close to the bird with your feet firmly planted and hit the bastard hard before he's really gotten his bird thing going.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Scotty
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:11 pm



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 19):
seem quite content to occupy at least half of Europe

Russia does not occupy at least half of Europe. Fact
 
Scotty
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:22 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
you think that we think that youse are a more stable block and offersa more mature negotiating partner for the rest of the world?

Yes

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
Do you think you can buy peace when all Putin has to do is snap his fingers and half the homes in Europe will go unheated this winter?

Of course not but as Churchill said "jaw jaw is better than war war". And if he did turn the gas off then we dont pay the bills.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
And the reason for all this is because you're all so sick of the brutality of the 20th century that you want to make sure it never happens again?

Its one of them. I am willing to predict that there will never be another war between Western European nations and probably no major conflict between any member of the EU including the recently accesses nations. Reality - Russia does more and more business with the EU and we welcome Russian citizens to our countries. In spite of the current hysteria, Russia is no longer a closed country and we work with them as partners in spite of Generals going off message and threatening daft things. Its been up to the EU to broker a Georgian ceasefire whilst the US Neocons resort to type and re-enact the Cold War via CNN

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
The average American could be forgiven for thinking that much of the brutality of the 20th century that you speak of you brought upon yourselves, so, yeah, you probably are sick of it.

We did. And are. And have hopefully learned the lessons.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
However, the writing's on the wall....better not fuck with Russia there, fellas.

Pessimist.

btw I didnt realise that France was part of the US

and vote Obama
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:24 am



Quoting Scotty (Reply 21):
Russia does not occupy at least half of Europe. Fact

Russia DID occupy half of Europe. Fact #1

Russia threw hissy fits for the past 20 years when that other half rejoined the rest of Europe. Fact #2.

Russia was pissed at first in the early '90s when their troops were bloodlessly tossed out of Europe. They were then pissed when their former victims joined NATO and shielded themselves from further Russia agression. They were then pissed off when that half joined the EU to bolster their economies and complete the transition away from Communism. Always pissed off, never a congratulatory note. Yeah, such a nice neighbor.  Yeah sure

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Dreadnought
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:28 am

I spent years in Russia during the 90s. I made many friends, and thoroughly enjoyed my contact with them. There is a pathos around Russians unlike any people I know. I also spent some time in Georgia, and can't really say the same. I found Georgians to be rather conniving.

That said, I have no doubt whatsoever that Russia engineered this entire event from start to finish. They may have gotten rid of communism, but their acceptance of strongman dictators and their ways is legendary. As any Russian - he will tell you that it is their fate to live under tyrants.

The EU has now expanded into Eastern Europe and calls itself the equal (or better) of the USA. I wonder how they will react when an EU member state is directly attacked by Russia. I figure it's only a matter of time. I lived in Europe for 20 years, and I doubt that they will react in any way until Russian tanks are rolling into

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
For many military analysts there was absolutely no dam reason to proceed with the project to install those missiles-specially when using Iran as a lame-duck argument.

There is also absolutely no reason for Moscow to bitch about a system that is defensive only. Are they afraid of Poland invading Russia? I don't think so.

With their invasion of Georgia, Russia's agressiveness has been made clear - the only reason they don't like Poland (or any 'near-abroad' nation) having such a system is they have ideas of reimposing control over them, if necessary by invasion.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 22):
Pessimist.

btw I didnt realise that France was part of the US

and vote Obama

I am a happy pessimist. Best of luck to you boys. I'm glad I don't have to be like the gennelmun from Estonia considering the Bear licking his chops and looking over at what he used to control.

My state flag is a tricolor.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Iowa+flag

Fact is, I turned out and caucused for the gennelmun from Illinois back in January of this year. 500 people in one place here is a big crowd.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
baroque
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:32 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
There is also absolutely no reason for Moscow to bitch about a system that is defensive only. Are they afraid of Poland invading Russia? I don't think so.

Like most powers, they are not keen on salami tactics being practiced on them.
 
tu204
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:10 pm

I do not understand what all the fuss is about! On both sides.
First of all, regarding our comments - what do you expect? It is a military target, ofcourse it will be added to our targets! As I am sure that every base in the USA has a Topol-M pointed at it. As I am sure every Russian base has an american missile pointing at it.
Now, the question is: why are the Polish politicians stupid enough to put themselves on the map for nothing?

Second: the actual system. It is obvious that it is pointed at Russia - not Iran, North Korea or whatever the americans say. Look at the geographic location! But it is definately a waste of U.S. taxpayer money as the system is absolutely useless. What will 10 rockets actually do? And if you are going against a quasibalistic Topol-M, you have several minutes to
a) identify launch of the missile
b) ready your missiles for launch
c) identify an intercept course and launch the interceptor
d) catch up to a ballisic missile before it splits into 6 warheads.

I understand that this is a political move "lets piss off the Russians again"
But at what cost? Next time arm a platoon with rocks and station them in Poland, it will be much cheaper and have the same effect. But it will not be another blow to an economy in a recession.
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OV735
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trou

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:42 pm



Quoting Tu204 (Reply 27):
I understand that this is a political move "lets piss off the Russians again"
But at what cost? Next time arm a platoon with rocks and station them in Poland, it will be much cheaper and have the same effect. But it will not be another blow to an economy in a recession.

I would say the meaning of it is similar to Russia sending its Tu-95 bombers on "training missions" to US border areas. The Bears are an easy catch for any modern fighter, so they have no real function in their designed role. Plus, their engines are hugely uneconomical to operate, there's whirlpool in the fuel tanks while the props are running. The money spent on the fuel could instead be invested in, for example, the fire safety of retirement homes. Paraphrasing yourself, Russia could send a pair of turtledoves flying over the Bering strait, it would have the same effect.

I understand that the comparison is way off cost-wise, the Polish missile project will cost more than any number of joyrides of the Bears will. But it proves the point - both the US and Russia spend cash on just reminding each other of the existence of the other side.

Cheers,
OV735
 
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Tu204 (Reply 27):
As I am sure that every base in the USA has a Topol-M pointed at it. As I am sure every Russian base has an american missile pointing at it.

By mutual treaty, they are supposed to be pointed at an empty part of the pacific ocean. I hope you guys are living up to that. Granted, it only takes a few minutes to reprogram, but it reduces the likelyhood of a mistake.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 27):
Now, the question is: why are the Polish politicians stupid enough to put themselves on the map for nothing?

For a defensive system, why would you care?

There is a way to test it. If Poland were to announce the creation of a defensive military wall - a sort of Maginot/Siegfried line, 10-15 miles back from Poland's eastern borders, would Putin bitch about it? I bet he does.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 27):
It is obvious that it is pointed at Russia - not Iran, North Korea or whatever the americans say. Look at the geographic location! But it is definately a waste of U.S. taxpayer money as the system is absolutely useless. What will 10 rockets actually do?

That should be proof enough that this is not aimed at Russia!

Think about it. If it were aimed at blunting a Russian attack, 10 interceptors is nothing. They would be talking about thousands of interceptors, not only to intercept warheads but the thousands of decoys Russia is capable of launching with their Topol-M's.

10 interceptors is only useful against a single, or maybe a small handful of missiles, probably non-MIRV. That's the kind of threat that Iran or Pakistan would pose, not Russia.

So, by your own logic, it is clear that this missile system is no threat whatsoever against Russia.

So the question comes back to why is this getting Putin and Co so upset?
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iairallie
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:54 pm

The Russians pushed them past the tipping point when they brutalized Georgia. All nearby neighbors of Russia are on edge. I know my relatives in Estonia are terrified. The 19th is an important date in Estonian independence my Mother's cousin wrote us yesterday. "How easily they have become acclimated to freedom how frightening that it can be taken away so quickly." They are hopeful their membership in the EU and NATO will provide them with protection this time around. Instead of the blind eye the world offered the last time the Russians decided to steal what isn't theirs and murder the innocent depriving an entire nation of their god given freedom. The Russians are liars and cannot be trusted. How ironic that Russia gets away with actually committing the blatant evils so many falsely accuse the US of.
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 30):
How ironic that Russia gets away with actually committing the blatant evils so many falsely accuse the US of.

I was curious about that. Notice how when the US invaded Iraq (in spite of all the UN resolutions and the long history of Saddam Hussein), millions of European and American leftists took to the streets to protest.

When Russia invades a democratically elected neighbor, where are the protests? Nothing. Not a sausage.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
haggis79
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):

When Russia invades a democratically elected neighbor, where are the protests? Nothing. Not a sausage.

well, I don't say the Russians are not to blame.... but still: the war was actually started by Georgia - they tried to fight their renegade region (South-Ossetia). Only that gave the Russians an excuse to invade. If they hadn't started it, chances are nothing at all hadn't happened. When Serbia fighted renegade Kosovo, it was actually the NATO who invaded Serbia....

I think larger part of the truth is, though, that the protestors hoped they would be able to change (or at least influence) the US' mind on Iraq... (and they better would have). Reality is, nothing is going to change Russia's mind on things - so people don't think it's worth protesting in large numbers. Another part of the truth: there have been protests in Europe (albeit smaller than against the war against Iraq) - your media just hasn't reported it, as it doesn't involve the US.

So yes, in some ways you are right that the US is viewed more critical than other countries. Part of the reason is also: we (young people in Europe critical against the US) do want to love the US like we once loved it. So we want it to be on a higher moral ground. Higher than having to lie about WMDs to start a war it's (vice-)president so eagerly wants. And especially at least as high as it requires other nations to be. We don't want the US to use different measures against other nations than it uses against itself or its allies. We do want to love the US - but that means we hate being disappointed. And that is exactly what happend at the beginning of this decade.

But I guess I digress...  embarrassed 
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:08 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
So the question comes back to why is this getting Putin and Co so upset?

well, imagine Russia would station interceptor missiles in Cuba to shield themselves from being attacked from, say, Mexico (for the sake of the argument let's just assume Russia had some beefs with Mexico for a moment). Wouldn't you be upset about that as well?
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iairallie
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:22 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
the war was actually started by Georgia

BULL it was started by russian agitators in the Southern Ossetia region. The Georgians were only protecting their territory. Their pre-soviet internationally agreed upon borders.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
Only that gave the Russians an excuse to invade.

The russians do not need excuses. They will take the thinnest of reasons and inflate them or if necessary make something up and lie.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 33):
well, imagine Russia would station interceptor missiles in Cuba to shield themselves from being attacked from, say, Mexico (for the sake of the argument let's just assume Russia had some beefs with Mexico for a moment). Wouldn't you be upset about that as well?

Stupid comparison. Mexico is not a nuclear power.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:32 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 33):
well, imagine Russia would station interceptor missiles in Cuba to shield themselves from being attacked from, say, Mexico (for the sake of the argument let's just assume Russia had some beefs with Mexico for a moment). Wouldn't you be upset about that as well?

The missiles have to be close to the target, for trajectory reasons. The interceptors in Poland are placed to defend potential targets in eastern NATO areas, like Berlin or Warsaw.

If Russia put such interceptors in Cuba, it would only be to defend Cuba - against what, I have no idea, as the US and Cuba have not threatened each other in over 45 years.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
well, I don't say the Russians are not to blame.... but still: the war was actually started by Georgia - they tried to fight their renegade region (South-Ossetia).

Within their own borders. What if France started giving French citizenship to everyone in the Ruhr, and then moved in troops to defend "their citizens", wouldn't Germany have a right to put a stop to it? (let's say the EU was not around).

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
I think larger part of the truth is, though, that the protestors hoped they would be able to change (or at least influence) the US' mind on Iraq... (and they better would have). Reality is, nothing is going to change Russia's mind on things - so people don't think it's worth protesting in large numbers.

Probably correct, but they didn't change Bush's mind a whit. Let's say that Bush suddenly invaded Iran. Knowing that the Americans will ignore European protests, I bet you they will still be out there. Protesting the U.S. is chic.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
Another part of the truth: there have been protests in Europe (albeit smaller than against the war against Iraq) - your media just hasn't reported it, as it doesn't involve the US.

Googling around, I just find a handful:

"several dozen" in Israel
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3583370,00.html

about 100 people in Los Angeles:
http://www.myfoxla.com/myfox/pages/N...EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

The lack of protest has drawn a pointed comment from the Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...havent-Left-got-Georgia-minds.html

Funny how the Not In My Name crowd always overlooks aggression by Communist or 'former' Communist regimes.

There's no such reticence when it comes to portraying George W. Bush as the new Hitler or daubing swastikas on the Israeli flag. Look at the protests against the wars in Iraq and Lebanon.

The same people who can't wait to burn the American flag in Trafalgar Square are only too happy to ignore Russian, Chinese and Iraqi genocide.

Where were all the marchers when the Russians were crushing Chechnya? Why so silent on Tibet? They must have been looking the other way when Saddam slaughtered the Kurds.

It hasn't been difficult to find apologists for the invasion of Georgia. We're told that the 'American-educated' Mikhail Saakashvili provoked the Russians beyond all reason. What did we expect encouraging the spread of democracy in former Soviet satellite states?

Putting a Western missile defence system in Poland is like waving a red rag at a bull, the sophisticates say. Putin has no option but to retaliate.

I don't remember them demanding the withdrawal of Soviet nukes pointing at Western capitals from East Germany. Back then, the Guardianistas were all for one-sided disarmament on our part.


Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
Part of the reason is also: we (young people in Europe critical against the US) do want to love the US like we once loved it.

I think that is a myth, but a common one. Obama says the same thing. He told a 7-year-old the other day, essentially, that life in the US sucks and that he doesn't want want that life for his children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d667NAI9HIM

My question to Obama, and to you, is this: When has the US been better? Slavery days? We had segregation and widespread racism until the 60s, and opportunities for minorities has been constantly improving since then. Standards of living have been steadily increasing for generations. "The poor" in the U.S. have flatscreen TVs, cars, and so much food obesity is a major problem. And they often own their own homes, as modest as they may be.

Employment over the past 10 years has hovered around the full employment level, and historically been at levels European countries could only dream of. Life expectancy continues to increase. We have the most innovative health care in the world (although health insurance is certainly an issue to solve). The U.S. economy throws off so much excess value that we import hundreds of billions of dollars every year buying stuff from other countries, employing millions upon millions of foreign workers.

We send massive amounts of food and medical aid to Africa and other messed up parts of the world. When we make a mess of things (admittedly, like in Iraq) we don't hit-and-run, but stick around to pour blood and treasure to make sure we not only fix the damage, but leave the place better than when we found it. Would you really rather have Saddam still around (and you would still suspect him of having WMDs)?

So I ask you again: When has the US been "better"?

Look, I lived in Europe for over 20 years, in France, Switzerland, England, and Poland. I know how so many people there (including a lot of people I call my friends) simply love to bitch about Americans and America. It's like a popular sport - you say the right things, and you know that you will fit right in with the "in" crowd at the the bars, discotheques and school cafeterias.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
Higher than having to lie about WMDs to start a war it's (vice-)president so eagerly wants.

Please cut that out - you only embarrass yourself. The Democrats now controlling Congress have held over 1,000 hearings and investigations into that accusation in the past couple of years, and have not found one single piece of evidence to support it.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
We do want to love the US - but that means we hate being disappointed. And that is exactly what happened at the beginning of this decade.

Haggis I appreciate what you have been saying (even if I think you are wrong), and I don't want to sound condescending. But like I have said I lived in Europe for a long time, and I think I can say that Europe has been a bit poisoned by a false image of the US, in my opinion.

For two centuries, the US was the mythical place where Europeans sick of their lives in the home country went to rebuild their lives in a new wilderness, mostly very successfully. That part of the myth is still true - the US is still a land of great opportunity.

The second part of the myth is that twice in the past century, American troops came over to save the butts of certain countries (sorry), then help stand guard at the Fulda Gap against the threat of Soviet Imperialism. The US funded the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after Big Mistake #2. In all those cases, Europe got to see the best of America. Handsome young men performing a noble duty, and typical young American men generally seem more rugged and brawny than Europeans (mainly because of a more protein-rich diet). Lots of money.

But the fact of the matter is that the US is a country just like all others. We have interests. We are not made up of 100% strapping young men, but have all sorts of dorks and dipsh&ts, just like everywhere (although I think we took things a bit too far with Britney Spears  ). And thanks to television, you now see Americans not as handsome and generous GIs, but as guests of the Jerry Springer Show.

So when you say,

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 32):
We don't want the US to use different measures against other nations than it uses against itself or its allies. We do want to love the US - but that means we hate being disappointed. And that is exactly what happened at the beginning of this decade.

I think it is you that have been misled by false expectations which you have built up on your own.

[Edited 2008-08-18 17:45:58]
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redflyer
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
Part of the reason is also: we (young people in Europe critical against the US) do want to love the US like we once loved it.

I think that is a myth, but a common one.

That is a big myth. Nobody ever loved the US back then, they certainly don't now, and regardless of future changes in global politics they never will either. I lived through the Cold War and travelled throughout Europe during that time when Russian missiles and tanks were arrayed on one side of the Iron Curtain and the only keeping them at bay were our missiles and tanks. I can tell you first hand that the animosity against the U.S. was just as big back then as it is now. Back then, peoples' attitudes were that if the U.S. weren't so aggressive the Russians would stand down; that only the U.S. gave them reason to have the mass of arms that they did. Different times, same scenario, same old argument. As long as the U.S. is the predominate super-power as well as super-economy with global influence, it will always be the Great Satan.
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Dougloid
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:55 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 36):


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
Part of the reason is also: we (young people in Europe critical against the US) do want to love the US like we once loved it.

I think that is a myth, but a common one.

That is a big myth. Nobody ever loved the US back then, they certainly don't now, and regardless of future changes in global politics they never will either. I lived through the Cold War and travelled throughout Europe during that time when Russian missiles and tanks were arrayed on one side of the Iron Curtain and the only keeping them at bay were our missiles and tanks. I can tell you first hand that the animosity against the U.S. was just as big back then as it is now. Back then, peoples' attitudes were that if the U.S. weren't so aggressive the Russians would stand down; that only the U.S. gave them reason to have the mass of arms that they did. Different times, same scenario, same old argument. As long as the U.S. is the predominate super-power as well as super-economy with global influence, it will always be the Great Satan.

Hey, Red....ever read "the Ugly American"?
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baroque
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:11 am



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 33):
well, imagine Russia would station interceptor missiles in Cuba to shield themselves from being attacked from, say, Mexico (for the sake of the argument let's just assume Russia had some beefs with Mexico for a moment). Wouldn't you be upset about that as well?



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
The missiles have to be close to the target, for trajectory reasons. The interceptors in Poland are placed to defend potential targets in eastern NATO areas, like Berlin or Warsaw.

And Russian missiles in Cuba would be not much worse situated to stop an attack from Mexico on Dallas as the N Poland ones are for Berlin from Iran. Have you checked where the great circle routes are?

If you were serious about protecting Berlin from Iran, the missiles would be in Turkey or Armenia. Poland protects from RUSSIA - but it protects the US, not Europe.
 
haggis79
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:04 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):

The missiles have to be close to the target, for trajectory reasons. The interceptors in Poland are placed to defend potential targets in eastern NATO areas, like Berlin or Warsaw.

sorry, but I don't buy that.... 1) it is much better to have the interceptors close to launch point than to target... because close to target the missile has most likely split up into several warheads. So you need several interceptors in the end where one had been enough at the start. Besides, why post the interceptors in North Poland when they are designed to defend Warsaw, which is in central eastern Poland? Are the missiles gonna take a scenic route? Please check the following link:
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=T...E=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=

2) So you are telling me the US is going to built a defense system for Europe first, before building one for it's home soil, despite the countries they wont to defend protesting? Sorry, but as you said yourself,

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
We have interests.

hence I don't really buy that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
Within their own borders.

which was to be secured by Russian peacekeepers having an UN mandate. As I said, I am aware that Russia certainly has its stakes in that whole thing... but it's not as easy as you make it. You sound actually very similar to the "European leftits" you always like to bash... for them "US=evil, Russia=good" - for you it's the exact opposite, but the narrow-mindedness of the reasoning is the same. Sometimes one could even get the feeling some guys are happy to have to deal with a "real" enemy again, and even the one you got used to over many decades.... how nice, makes things easier  Wink

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
What if France started giving French citizenship to everyone in the Ruhr, and then moved in troops to defend "their citizens", wouldn't Germany have a right to put a stop to it? (let's say the EU was not around).

Not if the UN had told us to keep our military out of the Ruhr because we had commited some serious war crimes there earlier.... (I don't know if we didn't do it anyway, but according to international law we would not have a right to do so)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
Protesting the U.S. is chic.

probably true.... bear in mind though, that many people (not all of them) are protesting GWB, not the US as such.... it may not make a difference to you, in their mind it does. If people protest Angela Merkel, they don't protest against Germany as such, either (again, most of them, apart from the maybe 5% anarchists amongst protesters - not to make a false impression, we don't have 5% anarchists in our society.... but they are much more demonstration-happy than usual people)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):

I think that is a myth, but a common one. Obama says the same thing. He told a 7-year-old the other day, essentially, that life in the US sucks and that he doesn't want want that life for his children.

It is certainly not a myth that my generation did love the US when we were teenagers - maybe not all of our image was true, but the US did act a lot less Cowboy-like back then. And please, I know you have many issues with Obama, but he certainly doesn't have to do anything with what we discuss right now.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
So I ask you again: When has the US been "better"?

Well, maybe not "better" - but "wiser". First off: I think, as said above, for many of us it's not an anti-US thing, but an anti-GWB thing. We might wonder "how the heck could this guy get elected (again)?", but we are not anti-US as such (when I'm talking about "we", I refer to people in my age and probably in my milieu as well - this is all I really can talk about. I realize there are people who are anti-US from a principle point of view, but they are not a majority). So maybe, to be more placative, one could say we are critical against US politics, but we don't hate the US (to take myself as an example, if I did hate the US it would be kind of stupid to go to Salt Lake City three times a year working on a joint project between my university here and the U of U in SLC).

In the 1990s the US may have pursued its interests as much as it does now, yet Bush I and Clinton were almost always more popular in Germany than our own counterparts (Kohl and Schröder). So what happened?

GWB and his crew (and yes, they are the main reason) just failed to give us the feeling of taking us, our concerns and our expertise seriously. Unforgotten over here is the "old Europe" by Rummy... we also don't like his approach to deny global climate change when we can see the consequences every winter in the Alps (no snow any more), his black-and-white thinking when dealing with global politics (his father, in contrast, even spoke with the Syrians when driving Iraq out of Kuwait. He also was smart enough not to go on with the war when his coalition only was built around freeing Kuwait).

Well, so far with the hard, international politics... but many of us are also interested in US internal politics - and what we see genuinely worries us. We have learned (of course not ourselves, but in the stories from our fathers and grandfathers) how quickly all the freedoms you took for granted can go away if you are not vigilant. GWB keeps talking about the enemy that hates our freedoms - but he is very happy to take away these very freedoms to achieve some percieved security (as are our politicians, unfortunately). "Innocent until proven guilty" - for guests entering your country this is not true any more, and this is certainly one point seriously hurting the image of the US in Europe. I realize that you need to defend yourselves... but is it really necessary to treat all visitors like criminals or illegal immigrants? I do know what I'm talking about, as mentioned above I undergo this very procedure several times a year.

So, putting things together: maybe it's not as much the content of US policies as its tone, that has hurt your image hardly over here. We do know that

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):

(...) the US is a country just like all others. We have interests.

and we respect that. It just would be nice if you would pursue them a little bit less recklessly. Because, when meeting on a personal level, I think the relationship between Germans and US citizens is usually very good - as long as no one starts to talk politics  Wink
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baroque
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:33 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 39):
Please check the following link:
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=T...TYLE=

But as I pointed out before, N Poland IS on the way to NY, and that is not the scenic route!

Nice plot by the way Haggis, I had not figured out you could get multiple plots on the one map.
 
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:52 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 39):
"Innocent until proven guilty" - for guests entering your country this is not true any more, and this is certainly one point seriously hurting the image of the US in Europe.

I assume you are referring to the whole Guantanamo issue with this statement, but you are making a sweeping generalization regarding the legal rights of foreign nationals in the United States that is simply not true.

Foreign nationals arrested for criminal violations in the United States are subjected to the same legal procedures that US citizens are. They are afforded the same right to council, the same right to a speedy trial, the same right to be judged by a jury, AND the burden of proof still lies with the prosecution; it's the same as it ever was.

It's fine to be critical of the Bush administration, and there's much to be critical of, but you would be wise to limit that criticism to events and circumstances that actually exist rather than making up ridiculous claims with no basis in fact.
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haggis79
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RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:02 pm



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 41):
I assume you are referring to the whole Guantanamo issue with this statement, but you are making a sweeping generalization regarding the legal rights of foreign nationals in the United States that is simply not true.

no, I refer to the treatment I must undergo when trying to enter the US as a tourist or for business. It is actually the duty of the immigration officers to assume that I want to immigrate illegally into the US until I can convince them otherwise. I was not refering to the Guantanamo issue (of course Gitmo has tarnished the reputation of the US over here as well, along with a number of laws and regulations taking away many freedoms even from US citizens - but that's not the point I was trying to make).

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 41):
Foreign nationals arrested for criminal violations in the United States are subjected to the same legal procedures that US citizens are. They are afforded the same right to council, the same right to a speedy trial, the same right to be judged by a jury, AND the burden of proof still lies with the prosecution; it's the same as it ever was.

I am well aware about that - still trying not to get into that situation, though...  Smile
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11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:00 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 42):
no, I refer to the treatment I must undergo when trying to enter the US as a tourist or for business.

You mean being finger-printed and photographed? That is hardly a serious violation of your rights, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the "Presumption of Innocence" in US law.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has every right to establish your identity and document your entry into the country. I have to be finger-printed and photographed to get my Drivers License. Does that mean I'm suffering a great miscarriage of justice? Of course not, that's absurd. Sir, you are grand-standing here. I understand you don't like Bush, and that's fine, either do I, but you do yourself no favors by making up a bunch of nonsense utterly disconnected from the facts.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 42):
... along with a number of laws and regulations taking away many freedoms even from US citizens

There you go again. Many freedoms? What are you referring to? I'm not aware of ANY rights that I've lost, let alone "many".  Yeah sure

.... back to the issue at hand. The issue of ABMs in Poland is one for the Polish and American governments to resolve. If other NATO members feel this proposal is inappropriate and/or dangerous, perhaps they should re-evaluate Poland's NATO membership.

As others have said, I think it's time for the US to step back and let the EU figure out how to deal with an increasingly belligerent Russia. We should refocus our efforts on sea-control in the North Atlantic and air defense of North America.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
haggis79
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:05 pm

RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:23 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 43):
There you go again. Many freedoms? What are you referring to? I'm not aware of ANY rights that I've lost, let alone "many".

does "privacy of electronic communication" ring a bell?

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 43):
You mean being finger-printed and photographed? That is hardly a serious violation of your rights,

yes, I do (amongst others), and I take the freedom to choose by myself if being finger-printed by the government constitutes a violation of my rights to me or not, thank you very much. Besides, it's not only that... whenever I book a ticket to the US the operating carrier is required to submit my credit card number etc. to DHS - basically all the stuff you are always warned about not to give away due to privacy/idendity theft concerns. If you're happy to tell your government all about your life, that's fine - I'm not.

Edited to add: read the following link, maybe then you understand better what I'm talking about.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/us...=1210781305-7TI0yYgVYqqqnszJSNl5/A

[Edited 2008-08-19 09:30:28]
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LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:26 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 39):
sorry, but I don't buy that.... 1) it is much better to have the interceptors close to launch point than to target...

Again you do not understand basic military planning, nor the physics involved.

Lets assume the US builds interceptor base in Turkey. If Iran launched missiles at Europe, intercepting them would be basically impossible for several reasons.

First, alert and reaction time would be reduced. Unless you expect a fully automated system which could be always subject to errors. Humans simply take a bit of time to confirm the launch and determine its destination and intent, so being close to the launch location you loose critical seconds/minutes.
Secondly and maybe most important, one does not hit a missile with a missile in the sense the interceptor simply 'chases' the target which would be nearly impossible as the Iranian missile would be moving away up into a yet to be determined trajectory at a high rate of speed. That means you interceptor would have to be several times faster, and have quite long range itself as the 'chase' might take a while. How interceptors really work is that once a target missile has been airborne for a bit its trajectory can be mathematically pretty well determined, and the interceptor will plan to intercept the target either in high cruise, or most preferably in its descent when its trajectory nearly 100% determined and unlikely to veer off. Hence why one wants to base interceptors close to the intended target location.

At the end of the day, Poland is quite strategic placed for being able to intercept things headed towards to Western Europe and potential longer towards the Americas.


In other news --- Ukraine offers West radar warning

Quote:
Ukraine offers West radar warning

Ukraine has said it is ready to make its missile early warning systems available to European nations following Russia's conflict with Georgia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7566070.stm
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
wardialer
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:51 pm

For one thing...Im for it...ANother thing...is that its a waste of money in the first place.
Now, If Iran says or commits to its words that its not producing nuclear weapons, rather there using it for energy, then I do not think Iran will threaten Europe in the first place...

That would make them a fool in the first place...

Russians were always felt threatened by the US until this day....they never ever liked the USA ever...And thats their silly excuse that the Americans will threaten them with these protective missile shields...Thats silly...
 
haggis79
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:05 pm

RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting Wardialer (Reply 46):
And thats their silly excuse that the Americans will threaten them with these protective missile shields...Thats silly...

that would be indeed silly if it was true... however, AFAIK the Russians are more concerned about the balance of power becoming imbalanced - i.e. they fear that the US one day will have the chance to nuke Moscow and St. Petersburg away without having to fear retaliation...
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DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:11 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 47):
that would be indeed silly if it was true... however, AFAIK the Russians are more concerned about the balance of power becoming imbalanced - i.e. they fear that the US one day will have the chance to nuke Moscow and St. Petersburg away without having to fear retaliation...

And for the umpteenth time: how do 10 interceptors based in Poland diminish Russia's ability to strike the United States with hundreds of warheads? The missile defense shield does not change the strategic balance between Russia and the United States one bit. It's a straw man argument and you know it.

Russia is making a stink for one reason only. They are trying to regain their political influence over Eastern Europe that they lost after the fall of the Soviet Union. It's about control and power, something Russia craves and something Russia abuses when they have it.

Get your head out of the sand people.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: The Polish Missile-shield :new Reason For Trouble

Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 44):
yes, I do (amongst others), and I take the freedom to choose by myself if being finger-printed by the government constitutes a violation of my rights to me or not, thank you very much. Besides, it's not only that... whenever I book a ticket to the US the operating carrier is required to submit my credit card number etc. to DHS - basically all the stuff you are always warned about not to give away due to privacy/idendity theft concerns. If you're happy to tell your government all about your life, that's fine - I'm not.

This is the most stupid thing I've ever heard of.

Haggis, do you not remember what happened here? And the role foreign travelers played in it? We're not about to make that mistake again.

The answer's simple. If it bothers you, stay home, because you're a guest in this country. If you're not an American citizen you have no "right" to enter this country.

It's a privilege, and it's subject to any restriction we think we need to impose on it.

Or would you argue that this country should not be able to control who enters it?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn

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