MCOflyer
Topic Author
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Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:21 pm

Inn a year or two I am going to have to decide on whether I want a house or a houseboat. Being in Florida I am split biased as each have their ups and downs. Now I do have experience living in both as my dad let me live one summer aboard his 32ft cruiser "Our Time." In addition I have been boating all my life but have lived in houses all my life. What would you do if you were in my shoes? For those wondering, a house boat can cost cheaper than a house if you get the right boat.

Hunter

[Edited 2008-08-16 10:31:10]
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2121
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:56 am

A boat is a hole in the water that you throw money into.

If you are renting, it makes no difference. If you are buying, get a house or condo.

Remember the 3 F rule:

If it flies, floats, or f*cks, it is cheaper to lease.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:48 am

As cool as a houseboat would be, I think actual property with a house is a much better investment. Buying a house is like investing in a RRSP that you live in.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
QFA380
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:58 am



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):

Yeah, buying a houseboat to live in seems like a rather unintelligent idea to me. You end up getting a mortgage on a guaranteed-to-depreciate asset. If the shit hits the fan you are royally screwed, you default on the loan and end up still oweing the bank after they have taken your only asset, not to mention finding buyers would be difficult so the bank will be almost giving it away. At least with a house you should theoretically get a return once you decide to sell.

Remember that in 20 years your boat will be absolutely worthless while a house will be worth more.

One thing though to consider is that you are young, should be having fun and living on a houseboat would be cool but until when? you may get sick of it within a few months but you still have this boat. You could say that the bonuses of a houseboat could be you can move around often but you still have a job and probably a car. Another thing for you, if you become a truck driver, long-haul then you are leaving your boat around for up to 2 weeks at a time, without seeing it at all. Much easier to steal a houseboat than a house.

You need to ask yourself though, will I regret this in 5, 10, 20 years? Is the coolness of living on a houseboat worth putting yourself behind so much? I read a post by Pope and something about the sooner you start investing the money, the the better you will be, a great deal better.
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:10 pm

You think the housing market is bad right now, take a look at the boat market, it's absolutely abysmal. Not to mention the fact that fuel prices are making even the most serious boaters think twice about even putting their boat in the water these days.

Just curious: the way you've hopped from job to job (low paying ones at that), how will you be able to get a mortgage? Is your dad going to get it for you?
 
bagoldex
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:47 pm

Indeed, I wouldn't give you a $15,000 car loan with what I've read of your work history. Securing financing for a boat typically requires at least a 50% down payment, and if the boat is more than 20 years old, forget financing all together. I think the question you should be asking yourself is what kind of job can I get with what I have that will permit me to function fully in society, not idiotic questions like should I get a houseboat.
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 4):
You think the housing market is bad right now, take a look at the boat market, it's absolutely abysmal. Not to mention the fact that fuel prices are making even the most serious boaters think twice about even putting their boat in the water these days.

Just curious: the way you've hopped from job to job (low paying ones at that), how will you be able to get a mortgage? Is your dad going to get it for you?

Your mistake Husky, is attempting to inject logic and common sense into this thread... Big grin
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
AirCop
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:35 pm



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 5):
Indeed, I wouldn't give you a $15,000 car loan with what I've read of your work history. I think the question you should be asking yourself is what kind of job can I get with what I have that will permit me to function fully in society, not idiotic questions like should I get a houseboat.

 checkmark 

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 4):
Just curious: the way you've hopped from job to job (low paying ones at that), how will you be able to get a mortgage?

Logic and common sense appears to be lacking with the tread starter, personally with some the recent treads I'm thinking that he is living in a dream world.
BAGold is right, MCOFlyer your number #1 goal should be to function fully in society first, before worrying about toys.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:13 pm

Hunter,

One thing that I learned from my grandfather (who was a fairly successful business man) was that you cannot go wrong in most real estate situations.

If you are able to indeed get yourself into a situation where you are able to own your own property (house boat would NOT be real-estate in this case), and NOT rent it, you will be far-better off financially than you would be by buying a houseboat-toy. (yes, that's exactly what it would be... a toy.)

If you can afford it, find yourself a nice piece of property / home that you can grow into with a family, should that be the route you decide to go down.

You will build equity in a home, you will NOT build equity in a house boat.

A houseboat can be put on par with a car, or a motorcycle etc. It's not something that will make you money, a home will.

Also.. for anyone who may be discouraging you from buying a home due to the US' stalled home market, do not let yourself be misled.

The real-estate market will once again rebound, and as long as you are financially responsible (i,e, take a mortgage from a bank that is reputable, is not stiffing you with fees and insanely high interest rates, etc) and keep your toy-buying to a minimum, you will be in a much better financial position.

Remember -- You can always borrow against your house (in circumstances where you need to) when you've built equity.

You cannot borrow against a houseboat or a car. They only depreciate in value.

One last piece of advice. Where you can, AVOID RENTING. all you are doing is making someone else rich. Most mortgages on condo's/homes are in and aroudn the same cost as renting a similar property. If you need to, get a second job to make some extra cash in the interim, so you can OWN the property.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:53 pm



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 5):
Indeed, I wouldn't give you a $15,000 car loan with what I've read of your work history. Securing financing for a boat typically requires at least a 50% down payment, and if the boat is more than 20 years old, forget financing all together. I think the question you should be asking yourself is what kind of job can I get with what I have that will permit me to function fully in society, not idiotic questions like should I get a houseboat.

well, what i read into this thread, and looking at pictures of his parents' house, it makes me think that Hunter would not exactly be the one buying it...
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 9):

well, what i read into this thread, and looking at pictures of his parents' house, it makes me think that Hunter would not exactly be the one buying it...

What do you mean???

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:39 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 4):
You think the housing market is bad right now, take a look at the boat market, it's absolutely abysmal. Not to mention the fact that fuel prices are making even the most serious boaters think twice about even putting their boat in the water these days.

I share a boat with my dad and we DON'T think twice about fuel cost. We DID when we had bigger boats. For example the last boat my dad owned drank 35 gallons of fuel per hour. This one drinks 1-2 gallons per hour at cruising speed.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 4):
Is your dad going to get it for you?

No he is not. What business is it to you?

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:19 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 11):
No he is not. What business is it to you?

I was actually speaking specifically about the mortgage, not the house. But when you come on here and ask for advice about buying a house, it naturally leads people to question how you're going to pay for it. I'm quite familiar with the mortgage-lending environment from both a professional and personal perspective, and the details of your employment history, which you openly share with anyone and everyone on this site, makes me wonder how you're going to qualify for a mortgage by yourself.

I apologize if you took offense to the question.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 11):
I share a boat with my dad and we DON'T think twice about fuel cost. We DID when we had bigger boats. For example the last boat my dad owned drank 35 gallons of fuel per hour. This one drinks 1-2 gallons per hour at cruising speed.

That's great that your boat uses such little fuel, but my point was the entire boating market has taken a tremendous hit, even more so than houses. That should make anyone considering buying a boat think twice about whether it is a particularly good place to sink a substantial sum of money.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:35 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 11):

No he is not. What business is it to you?

I'm glad you chose to skip over my post. (sarcasm)

Hunter, if i may say in your defence, you have a lot to learn.

When you post questions on a internet forum, and ask personal opinions of people, and invite people into your life via other threads talking about your educational background, your parents, your boats, your cars, your trucks, etc.. you're going to be criticized.

I've witnessed a half-dozen threads posted by you (and others) over the past few months, where you've opened yourself to criticism, whether you like it or not.

If you want to enjoy yourself on a.net, learn to ignore the little jabs and comments, and take the advice that you think is the best...

One thing that being on a.net requires, is a thick skin.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
RJdxer
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:45 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Thread starter):
Inn a year or two I am going to have to decide on whether I want a house or a houseboat.

At your age I would choose the house. It will look at lot better on your credit report as you get older.

In a few years I will have the same decision to make as I will be nearing retirement age. I may just go with the boat depending on the price of fuel. When we lived in Nashville we had an apartment that looked out over the Cumberland River. I used to see houseboats going by all the time. I had a chance to talk to a skipper of one at a marina near the land between the lakes. He said he had retired 5 years earlier and was spending his days plying the rivers and intercostal waterways. He showed me a map of how it is possible, by using the intercostals and river systems to not see the same stretch of river for years. No billboards, no parking fees unless you pull into a marina. Sounded like a great way to spend some retirement years. But you're a long way away from that unless you happen to hit the right numbers in the lottery. Buy the house and don't let these other negative individuals get to you.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 5):
Securing financing for a boat typically requires at least a 50% down payment,

According to? I can search boat loans and find 3 companies that advertise 5-10% down loans depending on the size of the loan and the customers credit.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 8):
Where you can, AVOID RENTING. all you are doing is making someone else rich. Most mortgages on condo's/homes are in and aroudn the same cost as renting a similar property.

As noted above, when we lived in Nashville we had an apartment that overlooked the Cumberland River, no way I could have afforded a condo or house with the same view.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:08 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 10):
Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 9):

well, what i read into this thread, and looking at pictures of his parents' house, it makes me think that Hunter would not exactly be the one buying it...

What do you mean???



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 11):
Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 4):
Is your dad going to get it for you?

No he is not. What business is it to you?

Hunter, it wasn't six months ago you started a thread on how you had to make the most important of your life: WHAT BOWLING BALL TO BUY!!!!  Wow!

That was interspersed with the saga that is your work history. In the last 12 months you've had more jobs than most people have in their life. We not only know how many shoes you own, we've seen pictures of them. You share your whole life on here. It's like watching a low budget soap opera.  boggled 

And now, you're buying either a house or houseboat, while unemployed, and we're not supposed to wonder how you plan to pay for it???  Yeah sure
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:31 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 15):

And now, you're buying either a house or houseboat, while unemployed, and we're not supposed to wonder how you plan to pay for it???

I am employed with my local community college. For your information, I never mentioned anything of my parents and its none of your business.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:44 pm

Lots of people live on houseboats (aka "Floating Homes") in Seattle. I know 2 people who do. Their experiences have been similar: at first, it seems really cool. When stuff happens, not so much.

One of the biggest downsides: everything you drop, bump, or otherwise mishandle is lost. One of them has lost 3 cellphones, a $150 textbook, his keys, more than one bag of groceries, and plenty of other stuff. Divers can find stuff, but not always, and it isn't cheap.

The other had a BBQ stolen off his deck by boat-operating thieves. Then, a pipe burst, which nearly sank the houseboat. Not so much of a problem on land. He remodeled, only to realize his design had dangerously altered the center of gravity. Fixing that cost even more $$$$$.

Loans are probably going to be difficult in this financial climate. Houseboat loans in Seattle are fairly difficult to find, and the interest rates tend to be higher than for real estate.
 
AirCop
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:12 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
I am employed with my local community college.

A part-time low wage one at that..job vs. career, big difference. MaidensGator hit it on the head, very tread you start is the "biggest decision in your life".

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 15):

And now, you're buying either a house or houseboat, while unemployed, and we're not supposed to wonder how you plan to pay for it???

I thought the sub-prime market was dead..
 
flight152
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:15 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
I am employed with my local community college.

Until someone says something you don't like, you feel "threatened", then quit.
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:16 am

ThreeIfByAir,

I have spotted several boats I want to get and they are cheap. One is a 36 Monk aft cabin and the other is a 40ft Defeaver. Both are going for 130-160K.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
AirCop
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:24 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 20):
Both are going for 130-160K.



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 20):
they are cheap.

 faint  No way that anyone can say a $130-$160,000 boat is cheap.  footinmouth 

Everyone is still interested on how you plan to purchase this, with a part-time low wage job, It just doesn't make sense unless your parents are purchasing it for you.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:35 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
I am employed with my local community college. For your information, I never mentioned anything of my parents and its none of your business.

as was mentioned, you do throw out a lot of information about yourself on this forum.

In a previous thread, you showed pictures of your parents' home. For what i know about florida real estate, it can't be cheap to have a canal front large home with a large boat out back.

Given the fact your employment history that you have put out on here, and the fact a lot of the times, you mention 'my parents let me' or 'my dad let me', it is not an illogical jump for someone to think that they are somehow chipping in for it.

If they are not, good for you. However, you have had trouble keeping 'dead end' jobs and burger joints and seven elevens. I can't imagine many instructors making great wages at community colleges, so whatever job you do have there(while going to school, and all the tutoring you are getting), i can't really see you paying off a mortgage, or getting one. On the other hand, it seems many US Banks/mortgage lenders were very keen on giving people mortgages that should have never gotten them.

Onto the question at hand though. I would prefer a house ON LAND. As was mentioned, living on a boat could be fun at first, but it will probably get old. Boating can be a great hobby, but honestly, its a hobby unless you are a fisherman or captain or something along those lines. What makes you want to live on a boathouse anyways?
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:55 am



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 22):
What makes you want to live on a boathouse anyways?

Its fun and interesting. Plus theres always something to do on a boat (hint hint).

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 22):

Given the fact your employment history that you have put out on here, and the fact a lot of the times, you mention 'my parents let me' or 'my dad let me', it is not an illogical jump for someone to think that they are somehow chipping in for it.

Ever since I lost a member of my family, my dads been a best friend to me. I can do whatever I want but always make sure I live up to their standards. Hes done stuff he shouldn't have that he did and please don't ask what those favors were.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
johns624
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:07 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
Hes done stuff he shouldn't have that he did and please don't ask what those favors were.

There you go again. If you don't want people here knowing about personal details, don't even bring them up...
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:39 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
Its fun and interesting. Plus theres always something to do on a boat (hint hint).

All I can think of is :

1. Fixing it.

2. Repairing it.

3. Painting it.

4. Writing checks for it.
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:43 am



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 25):

1. Fixing it.

2. Repairing it.

3. Painting it.

Spot on. I enjoy cleaning out the boat. When you go to take her out, she'll love you but in the end you know it was worth it. Also, boats are great for renting out but thats another story.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:02 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 26):
Also, boats are great for renting out but thats another story.

No. The rental of live aboard boats is mostly a tax dodge to take depreciation, interest, and maintainance deductions. The actual rental part is a big money loser. It is also rather difficult to rent a boat out if you live on it.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
Ever since I lost a member of my family, my dads been a best friend to me. I can do whatever I want but always make sure I live up to their standards. Hes done stuff he shouldn't have that he did and please don't ask what those favors were.

You are a sucker for the punishment you get on this website.

- You've posted half-nude pictures of yourself, which you *had* to know were going to be kicked around the site in a joking fashion, and then said we were all being mean by the comments we were making.

- You've routinely posted threads that contain personal information, but as soon as someone says something about it, you play all defensive.

You really need to take a step back and look at what you're doing.

You don't need to try to fit in. Just be yourself.

And, back to the thread at hand..

first of all, unless you're an exception, there is NO way you're going to be able to afford a 130,000$ boat with a single income, from a community college. There is absolutely no way.

Let's math this out..

it's common knowledge that most people can qualify for a mortgage that's 3x their income.

Let's make assumptions.. most community college jobs below the administration side, would pay in and around the 25,000$ range.

If you take 25,000 x 3 that's 75,000$.

And, at that, that's with MOST of your income going into your home.

Hunter, you have to see why most people are skeptical when they read one of your threads. They seem to be almost so overstretched in reality that no one can take them as being serious.

I only hope you can realize that you don't have to try to be anything but yourself here.. unless that's the problem.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
bagoldex
Posts: 270
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:46 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 9):
well, what i read into this thread, and looking at pictures of his parents' house, it makes me think that Hunter would not exactly be the one buying it...

Chances are when someone posts pictures like that, it's not really theirs.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:31 pm



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 29):
Chances are when someone posts pictures like that, it's not really theirs.

The sad thing is, it wouldn't surprise me if it WAS indeed his parents.

He keeps starting threads and dropping hints to stuff, which he doesn't realize is not only dangerous, but it's also quite tacky.

Maybe it's just the youth.. there's a lot of them on here who do the same thing.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
Its fun and interesting.

I bet it's "fun and interesting" to be living on a house boat on the western coast of Florida right about now...
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
kmh1956
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:03 am



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 25):
All I can think of is :

1. Fixing it.

2. Repairing it.

3. Painting it.

4. Writing checks for it.

Let's not forget scraping barnacles and pumping out the bilge when it backs up.....
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:09 am

Check out my thread on Fay man. I know people over there and all report good.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:17 am

To all of the OP's detractors: if you don't like his posts or think they are worthless etc, don't read them.

He may not have a high paying job, but he may have savings/a trust fund etc that he can use to pay for it (judging by a pic I once saw of his family home, it's safe to assume that he is from a wealthy family). It's of no interest to us.

So, back on subject - whilst a boat would be fun, a house would be more sensible. In all likelihood the value of a house would go up, and in all likelihood the value of a boat would go down. Buy a house and have a small cheap boat in the garage to get your H2O kicks.
Fortune favours the brave
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:34 am

Honestly, I would seriously think twice about buying a home at your age. I came very close to purchasing my first home last year when I moved out to Arizona. As I was going through the process of figuring out which area to live in, how much to spend, townhouse or home; I came to the realization that at the age of 23 (at the time) I just wasn't ready for such a commitment.

A home seems very rewarding but it can be a tremendous burden too. Lots of maintenance and if you purchase at the wrong time and the house declines in value you may be in it for a while. If I wake up next year and say, 'hey I want to move to San Diego,' I would probably owe more on the house than it is worth.
 
MCOflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:55 am

I may just lease an apartment for a while but it makes sense to purchase a house if the payments are compatible right?

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:11 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 36):
I may just lease an apartment for a while but it makes sense to purchase a house if the payments are compatible right?

Owning is almost 99.9% always better then renting/leasing anything. Why pay some else money thats just going to pay off his/her mortgages and lifestyles and you get nothing out of it? I don't know what its like down in the US, but here a mortgage payment is usually a little bit less then an average rent payment. All the money that you pay towards getting a house paid off will eventually come back to you in one way or another if you ever decide to sell it. The only problem most people have when it comes to buying a house is coming up with a down payment. Owning a house makes your financial life a lot easier.
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allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Housboat Or House; Need Advice Please

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Thread starter):
I am going to have to decide on whether I want a house or a houseboat

Forget both - split the difference and buy a trailer. Buy lots of plywood and and store it in your guestroom for the next hurricane. Try buying in an older retirement community - if the area's not up-to-date, you could get a bargain, and just think of the neighbors - women old enough to be your grandma bringing you pitcher after pitcher of lemonade while you regale them with absurd questions, word games and meaningless drivel.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 28):
You are a sucker for the punishment you get on this website.

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