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nighthawk
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Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:35 pm

The ice coverage in the arctic is up 30% compared to this time last year, despite predictions that the arctic could be ice free this summer due to global warming.

If it continues to increase at this rate we could be facing a new ice age within the next 5 years. God help us all! Get your SUVs back out and set the coal fires to the third bar!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/15/goddard_arctic_ice_mystery/
 
wilco737
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:41 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Thread starter):
ice age within the next 5 years.

Wow, already in 5 years... that's so soon  Wink So what is true now? Will I die from the heat or from the cold?

WILCO737 (MD11F)
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DLPMMM
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:43 pm

You have it wrong!

Global Warming is the cause of this increase in arctic ice!

Next year it will be so hot that we will all be covered in arctic ice!

It's the end of civilization as we know it, all because our consumption taxes are too low!
 
vc10
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:47 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
So what is true now? Will I die from the heat or from the cold?

Well there might be some doubt as to whether the heat or cold will get you ,but you can rest assured you will die, so don't worry about it too much and instead be happy  Big grin

littlevc10
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:48 pm

The explanation is obvious: It is "Nuclear Fall" in anticipation of the global thermonuclear war and subsequent nuclear winter that is sure to come very soon, starting with either Iran or the new USSR.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
wilco737
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:52 pm



Quoting VC10 (Reply 3):

Well there might be some doubt as to whether the heat or cold will get you ,but you can rest assured you will die, so don't worry about it too much and instead be happy Big grin

Alrighty...  bigthumbsup  CARPE DIEM Big grin  rotfl 

Who knows when and how I will die... Maybe today, maybe tomorrow, maybe in 30 years...

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Tugger
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:00 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 5):
Who knows when and how I will die... Maybe today, maybe tomorrow, maybe in 30 years...

But if you could see how you would die, would you want to?  scratchchin   scared 

As to global cooling/warming.... uhhhhh I just don't know. Maybe I'll freeze to death while being comfortably warm.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
David L
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:02 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
So what is true now? Will I die from the heat or from the cold?

The rapid alternating between hot and cold will cause most of us to shatter into a thousand pieces. The best solution is to get fat.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
Global Warming is the cause of this increase in arctic ice!

 checkmark  There will be some such "explanation".
 
wilco737
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 6):
But if you could see how you would die, would you want to? scratchchin scared

Nope, I don't want to know when and how I will die...

Quoting David L (Reply 7):
The rapid alternating between hot and cold will cause most of us to shatter into a thousand pieces. The best solution is to get fat.

Shatter into thousand pieces? sounds scary...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
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nighthawk
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:10 pm

I love the following bit:

Quote:

We know that Arctic summer ice extent is largely determined by variable oceanic and atmospheric currents such as the Arctic Oscillation. NASA claimed last summer that "not all the large changes seen in Arctic climate in recent years are a result of long-term trends associated with global warming". The media tendency to knee-jerkingly blame everything on "global warming" makes for an easy story - but it is not based on solid science.

Now isnt this the whole argument for global warming? Dont all the models show that the raise in CO2 emmissions cause an increase in temperature and a melting of the ice caps? Kinda blows all the models out of the water then does it not?
 
David L
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 8):
Shatter into thousand pieces? sounds scary...

Don't worry about it - after you've shattered into a thousand pieces, you won't care.  Smile
 
wilco737
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:14 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 10):
Don't worry about it - after you've shattered into a thousand pieces, you won't care. Smile

An excellent point you have here  Wink Never actually thought about how it would be to shatter into thousand pieces... but it would be a mess to collect all these pieces Big grin

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ER757
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 6):
But if you could see how you would die, would you want to?

Depends - does getting to know allow me to prevent it from happening? If so, then heck yeah. If not, then no......

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 9):
Now isnt this the whole argument for global warming? Dont all the models show that the raise in CO2 emmissions cause an increase in temperature and a melting of the ice caps? Kinda blows all the models out of the water then does it not?

I'm confused - it's given me a headache  confused   headache 
 
RJdxer
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting Nighthawk (Thread starter):
If it continues to increase at this rate we could be facing a new ice age within the next 5 years

Damn...does this mean the good looking chicks won't be on the beach in Kiev?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
planemaker
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:34 am



Quoting Nighthawk (Thread starter):
The ice coverage in the arctic is up 30% compared to this time last year, despite predictions that the arctic could be ice free this summer due to global warming.

Just FYI, the article is from The Register... not a science site but a site mainly dealing with software/hardware/music news and opinions with a lot of satire and sarcasm. And, in case you didn't notice, the article is poorly written.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:42 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 13):
Damn...does this mean the good looking chicks won't be on the beach in Kiev?

Unfortunately that may well be the case. It also means that property I bought 30 miles inland at bargain prices wont quite raise in value and have a sea view like I expected. Sunbathing? I think snowboarding is going to be more like it  Sad

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 14):

Just FYI, the article is from The Register... not a science site but a site mainly dealing with software/hardware/music news and opinions with a lot of satire and sarcasm. And, in case you didn't notice, the article is poorly written.

Im aware of the source of the article - im a frequent visitor of the site, however their journalism is going downhill rapidly at the moment. The source of the article is irrelevent, the facts are what matters, ice levels have increased 30% and NASA say that global warming does not have a significant effect on the ice caps. Thats all that matters, and not how poorly written the article is.
 
planemaker
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:38 am

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 15):
The source of the article is irrelevent, the facts are what matters, ice levels have increased 30% and NASA say that global warming does not have a significant effect on the ice caps. Thats all that matters, and not how poorly written the article is.

What facts??? There are no facts other than the author's junk misinformation.

The author is asserting that "ice levels" have increased by 30%... no one else! Please notice that there is NO quote from ANY source to back up the author's assertion... just typical poor journalistic inferences to "trick" the unthinking reader into believing the author's point of view.

A case in point is your statement above... "NASA say that global warming does not have a significant effect on the ice caps."

That is not what NASA says.... no where in the NASA article does it say that. If you go to the link the author provides (and he obviously doesn't think that you would use to verify his "fiction") you will see that what NASA actually says is...

"The results suggest not all the large changes seen in Arctic climate in recent years are a result of long-term trends associated with global warming."

And I actually went to the sites that the author claims to have got his information from and this is what is ACTUALLY said on the University of Illinois site...

"Sea ice extent averaged over the Northern Hemisphere has decreased correspondingly over the past 50 years (shown right). The largest change has been observed in the summer months with decreases exceeding 30%.

...

Recent observed surface air temperature changes over the Arctic region are the largest in the world. Winter (DJF) rates of warming exceed 4 degrees C. over portions of the Arctic land areas."


So yes, the source of the news is indeed VERY important... as is the ability to read critically is just as important!

[Edited 2008-08-19 02:57:00]
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
AverageUser
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:16 am



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 15):
the facts are what matters, ice levels have increased 30%

Could you then please point us to that 30% in this near real-time graph (1 day delayed) from the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center?

http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png
 
RJdxer
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:48 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 14):
And, in case you didn't notice, the article is poorly written.

As long as the sources are verifiable the way it is written is irrelevant to the discussion.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 17):
Could you then please point us to that 30% in this near real-time graph (1 day delayed) from the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center?

And of course almost immediately Global Warming dogmatists initiate rule number one.

1. Impugn, insult, agitate. In this case Impugn any information that disagrees with global warming dogma.

The story says that the graph is the source that is in error.

So how did NSIDC calculate a 10 per cent increase over 2007? Their graph appears to disagree with the maps by a factor of three (10 per cent vs. 30 per cent) - hardly a trivial discrepancy.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
planemaker
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:59 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 18):
As long as the sources are verifiable the way it is written is irrelevant to the discussion.

Nonsense. I can write in an article that aerodynamic lift on an airfoil is due exclusively to pressure under the the wing and quote NASA as my source. You can verify that NASA is my source... but the claim is still WRONG!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 18):
And of course almost immediately Global Warming dogmatists initiate rule number one.

1. Impugn, insult, agitate. In this case Impugn any information that disagrees with global warming dogma.

That is what you are doing while I have actually gone to the sources and pointed out how the author invented his assertions. So instead of complaining about the article being shown to be a sham... if you really believe what the author wrote then try to provide links that back it up.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:21 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
as is the ability to read critically is just as important!

As is the ability to detect humour in a post / thread. You appear to be missing the whole point of the thread.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 17):
Could you then please point us to that 30% in this near real-time graph (1 day delayed) from the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center?

The graph you posted clearly shows an increase in the levels of ice in the arctic. Whether its 10% or 30% the point is the same - ice levels are increasing, which goes against what every model has predicted. Ice free this summer? Hardly.
 
flexo
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 17):

Could you then please point us to that 30% in this near real-time graph (1 day delayed) from the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center?

It is a little hard to extract exact numbers from the chart you posted but for the end of July it seems that it is showing an increase of about 25% (6.5 vs. 8 mil. sq. km).

Exact numbers would definitely be interesting!
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 20):
The graph you posted clearly shows an increase in the levels of ice in the arctic

Only from 2007 to 2008. I would say the relevant figure is the average of 1979-2000, and in this case, whatever the year, we are still below the average.
But even 1979-2000 is too short of an interval to determine global phenomena.

The interminable debates on global warming and global cooling and whichever it is are spurned by interest groups anyhow. It's turning us away from the real issues that have made us interested in global warming in the first place: can we not be more efficient in our energy usage? Can the planet sustain in an "orderly" fashion the 10 billion people we will be in the next 50 years?
 
planemaker
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:57 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 20):
As is the ability to detect humour in a post / thread. You appear to be missing the whole point of the thread.

I recognized those posting in jest... thus I haven't commented on their "jesting".

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 20):
The graph you posted clearly shows an increase in the levels of ice in the arctic. Whether its 10% or 30% the point is the same - ice levels are increasing, which goes against what every model has predicted. Ice free this summer? Hardly.

No... that is not true. If you go to the NISD web site (who produced the graph) you will see that they predicted (and hoped) that this years sea ice extent would be greater than last year's record low. No one said that the arctic would be ice free this summer!

Now, the predictions of increased sea ice extent than 2007 are not only reducing... they may go the other way...

The Arctic Ocean ice cover, which appeared earlier this summer to be headed for a moderate recovery after last year's record-setting retreat, has begun disintegrating so rapidly in recent weeks that experts now say the ice loss by mid-September could exceed even 2007's history-making meltdown.

The Canadian Ice Service is reporting an "unprecedented" opening of waters in the Beaufort Sea north of the Yukon-Alaska border, where expected increases in ship traffic have just prompted the U. S. Coast Guard to establish two new outposts on Alaska's north coast to strengthen its vessel-monitoring and search-and-rescue capabilities.


http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=714588
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
MD-90
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:12 pm

Here's another interesting article that I came across recently.

Global Warming, Global Myth

During the 20th century, the earth warmed 0.6 degree Celsius (1 degree Fahrenheit), but that warming has been wiped out in a single year with a drop of 0.63 degree C. (1.13 F.)
 
planemaker
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:41 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 24):
Here's another interesting article that I came across recently.

Interesting? In what way? Because it is published by FORCES... Big grin

FORCES is an acronym of Fight Ordinances and Restrictions to Control and Eliminate Smoking. That name reflects the organisation’s original intent when it was founded in 1995 in San Francisco, USA. When it became clear that smoking repression, and the use of “junk” science to justify it, was going well beyond the petty prohibition to smoke in public, and implied instead a fundamental subversion of professional ethics and social values on an unprecedented scale, the scope of FORCES greatly expanded, and so did its size, through many chapters and affiliates in the United States and around the world.

http://www.forces.org/static_page/who.php
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
RJdxer
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:32 am



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 19):
Nonsense. I can write in an article that aerodynamic lift on an airfoil is due exclusively to pressure under the the wing and quote NASA as my source.

But the source has to exist which in this case it wouldn't since that is not NASA's position.
They have however staked out a position that not all sea ice melt is attributable to global warming.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-131

The results suggest not all the large changes seen in Arctic climate in recent years are a result of long-term trends associated with global warming.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
A case in point is your statement above... "NASA say that global warming does not have a significant effect on the ice caps."

That is not what NASA says.... no where in the NASA article does it say that.

Perhaps you should have kept on reading.

"Our study confirms many changes seen in upper Arctic Ocean circulation in the 1990s were mostly decadal in nature, rather than trends caused by global warming," said Morison.
Now you can disagree if you wish but to claim:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 19):
That is what you are doing while I have actually gone to the sources and pointed out how the author invented his assertions.

Is just flat out wrong when you evidently haven't bothered to read anything other than papers that support the global warming dogmatists blinder view vision.

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 22):
But even 1979-2000 is too short of an interval to determine global phenomena.

Correct. As is 1608-2008

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 23):
No one said that the arctic would be ice free this summer!

Evidently didn't read the second link.

OSLO, Feb. 29 (Xinhua) -- The polar cap in the Arctic may well disappear this summer due to the global warming, Dr. Olav Orheim, head of the Norwegian International Polar Year Secretariat, said on Friday.

Nor did the articles author assert that it would.

Just a few weeks ago, predictions of Arctic ice collapse were buzzing all over the internet. Some scientists were predicting that the "North Pole may be ice-free for first time this summer". Others predicted that the entire "polar ice cap would disappear this summer".

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
just typical poor journalistic inferences to "trick" the unthinking reader into believing the author's point of view.

As opposed to scare mongering done by the global warming dogmatists?

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
So yes, the source of the news is indeed VERY important... as is the ability to read critically is just as important!

Yes it is and you have yet to show where the ice, at the time the article was written, had not performed as the author suggested.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 19):
So instead of complaining about the article being shown to be a sham... if you really believe what the author wrote then try to provide links that back it up.

The links are in the article and it is you that are asserting that it is a sham or wrong at the time of it's publication, with no facts of your own to back it up save cherry picked quotes.

Same old same old. Global Warming Dogma demands that any evidence that might intrude on the belief be instantly derided as heretic. It's every bit as bad as religions of the middle ages.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:56 am

I'm dumping my Prius tomorrow!!!!
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
AverageUser
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:20 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 21):
It is a little hard to extract exact numbers from the chart you posted but for the end of July it seems that it is showing an increase of about 25% (6.5 vs. 8 mil. sq. km).

I have trouble getting the 8 out of the chart above, to me it looks pretty close to 7,25. I borrowed my wife's measuring tape, and on my 12" screen the height of the 2008 ice was 30 mm, of 2007 25 mm, which is a 20% increase from 2007. However, by the same methodology, the current situation is 20,5/17,25 mm, or 18%.

It's a well-know fact that the ice will continue to melt until mid-September, and the gap between the record loss year of 2007 and the year 2008 is now shrinking, not increasing.

I don't know if anyone is interested in the fact that we're far below the 1979-2000 average.

This image from data processed in Bremen, Germany indicates that the main channel of the NW passage (the McClure Strait in particular) is now very close to being fully open, just like last year, when the news broke Sept 14. (link)

http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de:8084/amsr/arctic_AMSRE_visual.png
 
RJdxer
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 27):
I'm dumping my Prius tomorrow!!!!

Good idea, the bottom is about to fall out of those things as gas prices have come down.

http://www.dnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...cle?AID=/20080814/NEWS01/808140305

Consumers' single-minded focus on small vehicles," which peaked in June and July after gasoline reached $4 a gallon, "is subsiding as gasoline prices drop," the automotive consumer Web site Edmunds.com reported.

SUV's are back in style and the price is only going up!!!  laughing 

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/DrHansZarkov/suv2.jpg
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
flexo
Posts: 344
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 28):
I don't know if anyone is interested in the fact that we're far below the 1979-2000 average.

Of course that is something to worry about. Still it is interesting that for this year we do see an increase in ice coverage compared to last year (be that 10, 20 or 30%).

It remains to be seen if that evolves into a new trend or if it is just a "freak" year and the general trend of decreasing ice coverage will continue next year.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1967
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 29):
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 27):
I'm dumping my Prius tomorrow!!!!

Good idea, the bottom is about to fall out of those things as gas prices have come down.

Yea, until the Iran thing kicks up again or , we get a Cat 3+ hurricane in the gulf, or Venezuela starts talking smack again, or, well, you get the idea.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
steeler83
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:54 am



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 14):
Just FYI, the article is from The Register... not a science site but a site mainly dealing with software/hardware/music news and opinions with a lot of satire and sarcasm. And, in case you didn't notice, the article is poorly written.

Preaching to the choir here. I'm calling shenanigans on that one after coming to this statement:

Quoting Nighthawk (Thread starter):
we could be facing a new ice age within the next 5 years

Ok, I'll get my snow blower ready and trade in my Hyundai for a bulldozer...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:20 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 30):
Of course that is something to worry about. Still it is interesting that for this year we do see an increase in ice coverage compared to last year (be that 10, 20 or 30%).

Melting Arctic sea ice is not a Japanese train, and we really need to wait until the mid-September before any conclusions, it will be interesting to see what the actual final length of this year's season will be. What matters is how much multi-year ice there might aggerate and where, and with what thickness.
There's an interesting video link of the behaviour called "flushing" where multi-year ice is being removed from the Arctic zone in 2007-8 not by melting alone, but by sea currents as well.

From the 2007 data one can see that the Arctic sea ice now has a potential to be reduced at a very rapid rate, only this year the very rapid melting period of July was missing compared to 2007.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:53 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 18):
As long as the sources are verifiable the way it is written is irrelevant to the discussion.

They aren't.

Move along.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Scotty
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:53 am

Nighthawk can I borrow your umbrella please?
 
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ER757
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:36 pm

This story published today seems to refute the cooling story earlier. makes you wonder if we'll ever know who's right, or if there even is a definitive answer to the gloabl warming question

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080827/...;_ylt=AqfWnAZvSwpsJeQoTeN6XFSs0NUE
 
flexo
Posts: 344
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:00 pm



Quoting ER757 (Reply 36):
This story published today seems to refute the cooling story earlier. makes you wonder if we'll ever know who's right, or if there even is a definitive answer to the gloabl warming question

The interesting thing about the article is that they are saying this year's ice level is the second lowest in history.
Last year was the lowest, so the way I read it, this article confirms that the ice has somewhat recovered from last year. So basically this confirms the story from the OP.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:19 pm

I heard someone say the other day how the recent evidence that 'Global Warming' has reversed itself was "due to the hard work and concrete results by the environmentalists in governmen, the Kyoto Protocol..." and so on.

Make no mistake. If GW is proven to be a fraud - never happened - then people like Al Gore and Nacy Pelosi will try to take credit for having reversed GW in the face of those evil, oil-loving, tree-hating conservatives. And the Media will be right behind them. Just you wait.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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ER757
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:38 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 37):
The interesting thing about the article is that they are saying this year's ice level is the second lowest in history.
Last year was the lowest, so the way I read it, this article confirms that the ice has somewhat recovered from last year. So basically this confirms the story from the OP.

No, it said the ice level is its lowest since 1979, not since 2007.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:10 am



Quoting ER757 (Reply 39):
No, it said the ice level is its lowest since 1979, not since 2007.

So your saying in 1979 ice levels were even lower than they are now? Did the earth overheat, sea levels rise and the human population die during the 80s? Or did the earth recover and its natural cycle continue?
 
TUNisia
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:34 pm

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luckyone
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 9):
Now isnt this the whole argument for global warming? Dont all the models show that the raise in CO2 emmissions cause an increase in temperature and a melting of the ice caps? Kinda blows all the models out of the water then does it not?

Never mind the fact that as recently as the 1400's core samples have shown that Greenland had HALF as much ice as it did in the sixties????? Well before any "large-scale carbon dioxide emission."

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
The author is asserting that "ice levels" have increased by 30%... no one else! Please notice that there is NO quote from ANY source to back up the author's assertion... just typical poor journalistic inferences to "trick" the unthinking reader into believing the author's point of view.

Or this report by the Norwegian Meteorological Society.... http://www.petroleumnews.com/pntruncate/374872199.shtml

Face it ... termites and cows emit more "greenhouse gasses" than we ever will.

Also, can you please explain why Mars and Pluto are warming at a FASTER rate than Earth despite 1) having no known lifeforms and 2) being farther from the sun??? Hmmm, could it be that the sun is getting hotter. Oh wait, stars do that as they get older! Wow! Whaddya know!
 
baroque
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:20 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 21):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 17):

Could you then please point us to that 30% in this near real-time graph (1 day delayed) from the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center?

It is a little hard to extract exact numbers from the chart you posted but for the end of July it seems that it is showing an increase of about 25% (6.5 vs. 8 mil. sq. km).

Exact numbers would definitely be interesting!

WADR Flexo, are you not misreading the legend? 2008 is the little blue line heading its way down awfully close to the dreaded 2007 line.

Quoting Flexo (Reply 30):
Of course that is something to worry about. Still it is interesting that for this year we do see an increase in ice coverage compared to last year (be that 10, 20 or 30%).

It be not even 10% if you read the graph properly. As pointed out, a "slow July" has been followed by a quick August so expect an early Sept extent to be even closer to 2007 although nothing is certain bearing in mind how wind patterns affect ice distribution. What is certain however, is that annual ice melts a great deal more rapidly than multi-year ice that has been in place for a number of years, so other things being equal, a major reverse of last years retreat is not one of the mostly likely events.

I am sure AverageU will keep us posted on what happens. I cannot see that an early freeze is very likely!

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 33):
There's an interesting video link of the behaviour called "flushing" where multi-year ice is being removed from the Arctic zone in 2007-8 not by melting alone, but by sea currents as well.

Wow, that is one impressive video. It certainly demonstrates one way that the cat gets skinned. And it shows why winds and currents are so important.

The old saying was we know more about the moons backside than we do about the ocean's bottom. It might be true about the ocean's surface too. Most impressive.

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 40):
Quoting ER757 (Reply 39):
No, it said the ice level is its lowest since 1979, not since 2007.

So your saying in 1979 ice levels were even lower than they are now? Did the earth overheat, sea levels rise and the human population die during the 80s? Or did the earth recover and its natural cycle continue?

Oh god, this is beyond a joke. 1979 was the first year when measurements became available. So that IS EXACTLY NOT WHAT ER757 IS SAYING. SORRY I KNOW IT IS RUDE TO SHOUT, BUT IT CAN HELP WHEN FOLK ARE HARD OF EYESIGHT.

As far as we know, this is the second smallest extent of late summer ice EVER (well since the end of the last interglacial, would have to get back on what the extent was in the last interglacial).

I hope none of the guys posting about global cooling is an engineer upon whose skills I depend when flying!!

My eyes are dim
I cannot see,
I have not brought my specs with me.
This thread has tended to be a bit like the cheese in that song, but thanks to those who have tried to rescue it!
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planespotting
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:31 pm

Hmmm ... a quick google news search shows the OP's original statement to be a bit misleading:

From the USA Today:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/08/melting-polar-i.html

Calling it a "tipping point" for global warming, scientists said today that Arctic Ocean ice has melted this summer to the second-lowest level in three decades. The low point was reached just last September.


Quoting AP, http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...-mhR216BbP-65r8IrK1C6y8ZQD92QRQD81 :
More ominous signs Wednesday have scientists saying that a global warming "tipping point" in the Arctic seems to be happening before their eyes: Sea ice in the Arctic Ocean is at its second lowest level in about 30 years.

The National Snow and Ice Data Center reported that sea ice in the Arctic now covers about 2.03 million square miles. The lowest point since satellite measurements began in 1979 was 1.65 million square miles set last September.

If you do the math, the arctic ice levels are actually 23 percent higher than the record low of last September. However, NSIDC folks think with three weeks left of Arctic summer, ice levels will fall below the record low of 2007.

*edits - link problems*

[Edited 2008-08-28 08:51:36]
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ER757
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:35 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 40):
So your saying in 1979 ice levels were even lower than they are now? Did the earth overheat, sea levels rise and the human population die during the 80s? Or did the earth recover and its natural cycle continue?

No, I'm not saying it at all - the article says it! You didn't read it that way and I was pointing out what the article says. I'll be honest, I don't know what to think about the whole climate change issue. All I will say is that the climate is changing - facts are there, look at the receding glaciers, collapsing ice shelfs in Antarctica etc. Is this caused by human activity, is it a natural cycle, is it a combination of both? Is it necessarily a bad thing? Can efforts by man slow or stop it? Should we try and slow or stop it? Beats me........
 
AverageUser
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RE: Global Cooling - Arctic Ice Levels Increase

Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:33 pm

The Register journalist that provided the inspiration for this thread has now taken back what he wrote and is quoted as having said: "... it is clear that the NSIDC graph is correct, and that 2008 Arctic ice is barely 10% above last year - just as NSIDC had stated." (The correction by the author is now edited to the end of the original article referenced in #1.)

also http://www.desmogblog.com/arctic-ice...elt-media-misinformation-retracted

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