Boeing747_600
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Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:33 pm

I had previously posted this under the thread PETA Makes Proposal To DFW Airport , but at the forum moderator's suggestion, I've created a separate thread for it here.

My point is that, kooky as they undoubtedly can be, the PETA nuts are decidedly less dangerous than the NRA and other assorted gun-nuts that want to eliminate the perfectly reasonable restrictions agains carrying handguns at ATL.. While they are not asking to take guns past security, they are asking to carry handguns in other areas of the airport, which is currently a violation of the Hartsfield Airport Regulations.
 
jhooper
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:50 pm

The airlines permit passengers to check firearms onto aircraft. Since they're not allowed past security anyway, I don't see why the ban is necessary. If I buy a firearm in Georgia, I need to be able to transport it back home to Texas; should I not just be able to follow the airlines' and TSA's procedures for transporting the firearm safely? And with hundreds of air carrier airports in this country, how am I supposed to keep track of which airports allow firearms in the unsecure areas and which airports don't?

Besides, when are the gun control nuts going to figure out that the people who pay attention to the law to begin with aren't a threat to you. The 'bad guys' are bringing their guns to ATL (and wherever else they want to), and unless you post the X-ray machines at the airport entrance, you're never going to catch them.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:54 pm

And hopefully the local Hatsfield regulations will be overturned, as the intended Georgia statue allowing carriage of fire arms very clearly makes mentions "Mass Transit" as public location where firearms are permitted.

I fully support gun rights in the public including non-restricted areas of airports, and fully support Georgia and its citizen rights to bear such arms as the law intends.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
SPREE34
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting Jhooper (Reply 1):
Besides, when are the gun control nuts going to figure out that the people who pay attention to the law to begin with aren't a threat to you. The 'bad guys' are bringing their guns to ATL (and wherever else they want to), and unless you post the X-ray machines at the airport entrance, you're never going to catch them.

DING! I love common sense.

It's too late for "gun control" as it is most often defined.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
johns624
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:05 pm

That would mean that even if you have a valid CCW permit, if you're going to pick up or drop off anyone at ATL, you're unprotected from the time you leave your house until you get back.
 
413X3
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
as the law intends.

only according to those on the right aisle of the political side.
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:16 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 4):
you're unprotected from the time you leave your house until you get back.

You are not serious, are you?
You feel unprotected while not carrying your personal firearm?

11.000 weapon murders a year do speak for themselves, no?
 
Boeing747_600
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:25 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 4):
That would mean that even if you have a valid CCW permit, if you're going to pick up or drop off anyone at ATL, you're unprotected from the time you leave your house until you get back.

No! That's an incorrect interpretaion of the regulations. You can have your gun in your vehicle. You just cannot carry it with you on your person into a public area of the airport.

Moreover I'm sorry, but I completely fail to understand this paranoia about "protection with firearms" while driving to and from the airport!! You have a better chance of being mowed down by an errant 18-wheeler than being car-jacked by some thug.

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 1):
The airlines permit passengers to check firearms onto aircraft. Since they're not allowed past security anyway, I don't see why the ban is necessary.

I'll go with the numerous studies worldwide that have demonstrated that the possession of weapons in a public place by people not involved in a security function has the potential to do more harm than good. This includes well-intentioned, well-trained and law-abiding vigilantes as well. The public areas of the airport outside of the secure areas ought to be off-limits to unauthorised weapons too. A concealed handgun permit is not an autorisation to carry it in a place where the management have deemed it a security hazard. You may differ with their analysis, but I and many others would prefer to trust their judgement over that of the gun lobby.

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 1):
I need to be able to transport it back home to Texas;

Pack it in your suitcase unloaded. No questions, no worries. Plus isnt transporting a gun to Texas a bit like carrying coals to Newcastle?! Big grin
 
jhooper
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:29 pm



Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 7):
Pack it in your suitcase unloaded. No questions, no worries.

That's what I'm worried about. If weapons are banned from the check-in area, then do I not subject myself to arrest by merely having my unloaded weapon in my suitcase? Maybe I misunderstand the regulation.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:34 pm



Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 7):
Moreover I'm sorry, but I completely fail to understand this paranoia about "protection with firearms" while driving to and from the airport!!

 checkmark 

A voice of reason. Thank you for that.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:37 pm

You Europeans will never understand...
 
Boeing747_600
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:37 pm



Quoting Jhooper (Reply 8):
That's what I'm worried about. If weapons are banned from the check-in area, then do I not subject myself to arrest by merely having my unloaded weapon in my suitcase?

No. The statute only applies to concealed handguns carried on one's person. Unloaded packed weapons are not a problem.
 
scxmechanic
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:38 pm



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 6):
11.000 weapon murders a year do speak for themselves, no?

Well there would be less deaths if more people carried a gun to defend themselves. Who would want to rob or otherwise try to harm someone if they thought they were armed?

An unarned person is a victim waiting to happen into their own crime scene. I know myself, I don't leave home without a handgun on my person.
 
bennett123
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:40 pm

I always understood that the US Constitution referred to "a well regulated militia" not anyone who feels like it.

Surely the more guns are out there, the more will go off by accident, and the more that can be stolen or misused.

Is the US really that dangerous that everyone needs a gun.
 
scxmechanic
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 pm

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
No. 04-278
TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO, PETITIONER v. JESSICA GONZALES, INDIVIDUALLY AND AS NEXT BEST FRIEND OF HER DECEASED MINOR CHILDREN, REBECCA GONZALES, KATHERYN GONZALES, AND LESLIE GONZALES
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE TENTH CIRCUIT
[June 27, 2005]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162325,00.html

On June 27, in the case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court found that Jessica Gonzales did not have a constitutional right to police protection, even in the presence of a restraining order.

By a vote of 7-to-2, the Supreme Court ruled that Gonzales has no right to sue her local police department for failing to protect her and her children from her estranged husband.

The post-mortem discussion on Gonzales has been fiery but it has missed an obvious point. If the government won't protect you, then you have to take responsibility for your own self-defense and that of your family. The court's ruling is a sad decision, but one that every victim and/or potential victim of violence must note: calling the police is not enough. You must also be ready to defend yourself.

In 1999, Gonzales obtained a restraining order against her estranged husband Simon, which limited his access to their children. On June 22, 1999, Simon abducted their three daughters. Though the Castle Rock police department disputes some of the details of what happened next, the two sides are in basic agreement: After her daughters' abduction, Gonzales repeatedly phoned the police for assistance. Officers visited the home. Believing Simon to be non-violent and, arguably, in compliance with the limited access granted by the restraining order, the police did nothing.

The next morning, Simon committed "suicide by cop." He shot a gun repeatedly through a police station window and was killed by returned fire. The murdered bodies of Leslie, 7, Katheryn, 9 and Rebecca, 10 were found in Simon's pickup truck.

[Edited 2008-08-19 15:46:31]
 
Boeing747_600
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:47 pm



Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 12):
Well there would be less deaths if more people carried a gun to defend themselves. Who would want to rob or otherwise try to harm someone if they thought they were armed?

The perpetrator always has the element of surprise, unless one is so paranoid that he/she assumes a sniper-like perch at all times in public. So with all your handgun training, if a murderous thug wanted to rob you, I'd sadly have to say that the odds are in his favour. But hey! Its your choice - if you feel that you can defend yourself - Go ahead! Pack heat! Unless you're packing heat where its against the law, in which case, sorry, but you're going to jail! Big grin
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:48 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
You Europeans will never understand...

Correct, we won't. We don't like getting shot.

Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 12):
Well there would be less deaths if more people carried a gun to defend themselves. Who would want to rob or otherwise try to harm someone if they thought they were armed?

An unarned person is a victim waiting to happen into their own crime scene. I know myself, I don't leave home without a handgun on my person.

Exactly HOW paranoid can one get?
The statistics prove you wrong.

USA: 11.000 weapon murders on 300 Mio inhabitants = 37 for every million residents.
Germany: 350 for 85 Mio. = 4 for every mio. residents.

Yes, I see. Weapons DO make it safer.

[Edited 2008-08-19 15:49:35]
 
scxmechanic
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:54 pm



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 16):
Yes, I see. Weapons DO make it safer

If you could get all the guns from criminals then I wouldn't feel the need to feel so strongly about personal protection as I do. Since the criminals aren't going to hand over theirs then I damn sure aren't gonna be disarmed.

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 15):
Go ahead! Pack heat! Unless you're packing heat where its against the law, in which case, sorry, but you're going to jail!

I DO "pack heat" as you say where and when its legal for me to do so. You won't find me carrying in a Federal Building, bars or other places where they are banned. But can't say the same about guys who carry illegally looking to do harm.
 
Boeing747_600
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:56 pm



Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 14):
and, arguably, in compliance with the limited access granted by the restraining order, the police did nothing.

So what would you have them do when he is in compliance ?!?! We're supposed to believe that if Ms Gonzalez had a firearm and was trained to use it, this murderous punk would have avoided all contact with her and their children?! Sorry, but that's ludicruously naive!
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:57 pm



Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 7):
Plus isnt transporting a gun to Texas a bit like carrying coals to Newcastle?!

Classic!

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
You Europeans will never understand...

Nor will a lot Americans.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 13):
I always understood that the US Constitution referred to "a well regulated militia" not anyone who feels like it.

But they use that vague reference to support their gun obsession. That Article of the Constitution was meant to facilitate a defensive organization against a common enemy in the absence of a standing army. With the US Army well armed and controlled, that Article is pointless in today's society. Back in the 1790's it was necessary, today it isn't.

Cue the right-wing attack fest.  sarcastic   duck 
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Nicoeddf
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:57 pm



Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 17):
If you could get all the guns from criminals then I wouldn't feel the need to feel so strongly about personal protection as I do. Since the criminals aren't going to hand over theirs then I damn sure aren't gonna be disarmed.

Don't you feel, that the relative simple way of getting a firearm in the US for everybody at the age of 16 (please correct me on that) is making people more prone to use it in a certain "anger" situation whereas somebody in e.g. Germany with no access to firearms would maybe just start a major beat up?
Lots of people are literally pushed into becoming a "criminal by law" due to the ability to possess and use firearms easily.

If you carry a weapon, you gonna use it. If you don't you can just use your fists.
Think about it...
 
pilotntrng
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:11 pm

Although I am a Republican, I disagree with this gun crap. We, USA as a whole, are not very intelligent. I personally believe that handguns should be outlawed, because of the lack of common sense and the overall evil that criminals do. I say lack of common sense, because I had a friend in high school that was killed because another friend was screwing around with a handgun and it went off in the guy's face. People are not smart enough to be armed.The evil is grown men shooting at each other for dumb ass reasons and end up killing an innocent child. If it should happen that we as civilians need to be an armed militia, then use the hunting rifles, etc. etc. This isn't the 1700 or 1800's were it would be possible ( if needed) to over throw the government. This is just a guess, but I think the US armed forces and police forces around the country are a little better armed than a friggin hand gun.
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johns624
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:17 pm



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 20):
everybody at the age of 16

It's 18 for rifles and shotguns and 21 for handguns. Every purchaser undergoes a Federal background check.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 20):
If you carry a weapon, you gonna use it.

Guns don't make people evil or criminal.

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 7):
law-abiding vigilantes

Oxymoron--as opposed to a regular moron!

Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 19):
That Article of the Constitution was meant to facilitate a defensive organization against a common enemy in the absence of a standing army.

That's not what the SCOTUS ruled in Heller vs. DC. None of the first 10 Amendments are rights that the government is giving you. They merely reiterate God-given rights that the government says that they won't interfere with.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 13):
I always understood that the US Constitution referred to "a well regulated militia" not anyone who feels like it.

Yes it does -- and its definition and intent was an important element just this summer in the Supreme Court decision regarding District of Columbia's law that restricted hand gun ownership within the district.

The court again (every few decades such cases come up) affirmed citizen basic Second Amendment right to bear arms and interpreted the 'milita' to mean the according to the courts majority decision.

the "militia" reference in the first part of the amendment simply "announces the purpose for which the right was codified: to prevent elimination of the militia." The Constitution's framers were afraid that the new federal government would disarm the populace, as the British had tried to do. This "prefatory statement of purpose" should not be interpreted to limit the meaning of what is called the operative clause --- "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Instead, the operative clause "codified a pre-existing right" of individual gun ownership for private use.
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PanAm747
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:21 pm

Is it just me or has this thread devolved into a non-aviation related topic?

Moderators: Please either delete or move to "Non-Aviation".

This topic is supposed to be about guns at the Atlanta airport.
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bennett123
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:30 pm

So if the framers of the Constitution meant "anyone can own a gun or guns for private use, why refer to a Militia". Surely, they also referred to this Militia being "well regulated"
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:32 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 22):
It's 18 for rifles and shotguns and 21 for handguns. Every purchaser undergoes a Federal background check.

So you can carry a shotgun with 18? Yes, I think that is reasonable...

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 22):
Guns don't make people evil or criminal.

I know, the typical argument. But as you see in unbiased statistics, they certainly do. Pls read again my reply 20.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 24):
This topic is supposed to be about guns at the Atlanta airport.

True, and with all the above said, I say it is well within reason to forbid weapons on your "private ground". So it is well within reason for ATL airport to forbid them.
If US law says something different, then be it...
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:22 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
Yes it does -- and its definition and intent was an important element just this summer in the Supreme Court decision regarding District of Columbia's law that restricted hand gun ownership within the district.

So Justice Scalia's reading of history is automatically the correct one? Who said that?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
scxmechanic
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:23 am

If it was private ground then they have every right to forbid guns or anything else they feel deem harmful. But since they use public funds to run and operate the airport, its not private property.
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:28 am



Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 27):
But since they use public funds to run and operate the airport, its not private property.

Do they exclusively use public funds?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:29 am



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
So Justice Scalia's reading of history is automatically the correct one? Who said that?

Well Justice Scalia wrote the majority opinion and at the end of the day, what the highest court in the nation says goes.

Anyhow - this is not the first time such cases have appeared in front of the court. Its pretty damming that in case after case, decade after decade the court has repeatedly upheld citizens Second Amendment basic rights to bear arms.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:40 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
Well Justice Scalia wrote the majority opinion and at the end of the day, what the highest court in the nation says goes.

What if it's objectively wrong? I'm not saying it is, but I can at least imagine a situation in which a justice selectively quotes history in order to advance a political agenda.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
Anyhow - this is not the first time such cases have appeared in front of the court. Its pretty damming that in case after case, decade after decade the court has repeatedly upheld citizens Second Amendment basic rights to bear arms.

When was the last time (prior to the the case you quoted) that the Supreme Court did such a thing?
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Kent350787
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:04 am

Is it worth continuing to fight the gun control fight in the US?

If, as a nation, you guys are prepared to accept a gun homicide rate massively higher than the rest of the western world, just get over it.

And, whatever we all think about Mike Moore, the US/Canadian gun ownership/homicide comparison surely says something about US society (Moore's conclusion, if you haven't heard it - "Guns don't kill people, Americans with guns kill people")

Kent
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:05 am

I'm all for gun rights, but the NRA has lawyers not brains.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
sv7887
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:29 am



Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 32):
Is it worth continuing to fight the gun control fight in the US?

Considering the US Supreme Court agrees with the spirit of giving people the right to bear arms I'd say yes.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 26):
So you can carry a shotgun with 18? Yes, I think that is reasonable...

Then I'd imagine you'd object to allowing people to drink, drive a car, smoke pot, get married, have abortions at 16-18?

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 22):
Guns don't make people evil or criminal.

Pretty much the point...The same argument can be illustrated in the knife crime in London. Does owning a knife make you evil?

From Today's News in Denver:

Pistol-packing woman, 85, forces intruder to call 911

POINT MARION, Pa. — An 85-year-old woman boldly went for her gun and busted a would-be burglar inside her home, then forced him to call police while she kept him in her sights, police said.

"I just walked right on past him to the bedroom and got my gun," Leda Smith said.

Source:http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/19/pistol-packing-woman-85-forces-intruder-call-911/
 
L-188
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:41 am



Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 21):
This isn't the 1700 or 1800's were it would be possible ( if needed) to over throw the government.

I dunno, with the way the democrats run this country it may become needed.

I bet you right now in Europe there are a hell of a lot of Georgians that wish they had privately owned firearms....and a bunch of ruskies that are glad they don't.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:07 am



Quoting Jhooper (Reply 1):
Besides, when are the gun control nuts going to figure out that the people who pay attention to the law to begin with aren't a threat to you. The 'bad guys' are bringing their guns to ATL (and wherever else they want to), and unless you post the X-ray machines at the airport entrance, you're never going to catch them.

Hmmm....they do this in Istanbul, Turkey.  scratchchin  You have to go through security just to get into the airport. Maybe the Turks are onto something.  wink 

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 20):
Don't you feel, that the relative simple way of getting a firearm in the US for everybody at the age of 16 (please correct me on that) is making people more prone to use it in a certain "anger" situation whereas somebody in e.g. Germany with no access to firearms would maybe just start a major beat up?
Lots of people are literally pushed into becoming a "criminal by law" due to the ability to possess and use firearms easily.

If I find myself in a "life or death" situation, I don't want the situation to be "fair" - I want every advantage possible.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 20):
If you carry a weapon, you gonna use it. If you don't you can just use your fists.
Think about it...

And why wouldn't I? See above. I mean, why should I "just use my fists" if someone's attacking me with only their fists?
I'm smart enough and honest enough with myself to know that I'd get my ass kicked by most in any major "beat up". I'm not a physically strong person. So I will choose to give myself the advantage and use a weapon of some form. End of Discussion.
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Kent350787
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:35 am

If you're happy with banning guns from some places (such as landside at airports, schools etc.), why aren't you happy to ban them from all places?

Kent
 
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jetmech
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:12 am



Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
You Europeans will never understand...



Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 19):
Nor will a lot Americans.

I'd have to say that I am another one of the many that did not "understand". However, I have slowly become more sympathetic to the self defence side of the argument. I currently find myself sitting on the fence, and see validity in some of the arguments from both sides of the debate.

Some comments that make sense to me from the pro side of the argument include;

Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 17):
If you could get all the guns from criminals then I wouldn't feel the need to feel so strongly about personal protection as I do. Since the criminals aren't going to hand over theirs then I damn sure aren't gonna be disarmed.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 36):
I'm smart enough and honest enough with myself to know that I'd get my ass kicked by most in any major "beat up". I'm not a physically strong person. So I will choose to give myself the advantage and use a weapon of some form.



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 34):
An 85-year-old woman boldly went for her gun and busted a would-be burglar inside her home, then forced him to call police while she kept him in her sights, police said.

Other arguments are in line with my original sentiments on the issue;

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 15):
The perpetrator always has the element of surprise, unless one is so paranoid that he/she assumes a sniper-like perch at all times in public.



Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 19):
With the US Army well armed and controlled, that Article is pointless in today's society. Back in the 1790's it was necessary, today it isn't.



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 20):
Don't you feel, that the relative simple way of getting a firearm in the US for everybody at the age of 16 (please correct me on that) is making people more prone to use it in a certain "anger" situation whereas somebody in e.g. Germany with no access to firearms would maybe just start a major beat up?



Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 21):
I say lack of common sense, because I had a friend in high school that was killed because another friend was screwing around with a handgun and it went off in the guy's face. People are not smart enough to be armed.

Unfortunately, the gun situation is completely out of the bag in the US, so the only real remaining option may be to deal with it as best possible. Part of "dealing" with the gun situation in the US includes acceptance of periodic massacres, where one low life idiot takes the lives of many others.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 32):
Is it worth continuing to fight the gun control fight in the US?
If, as a nation, you guys are prepared to accept a gun homicide rate massively higher than the rest of the western world, just get over it.

I think what most of us don't understand about the situation in the US is what - as others have pointed out - appears to be such paranoia about merely stepping out of ones house.

Quoting SCXmechanic (Reply 12):
An unarned person is a victim waiting to happen into their own crime scene. I know myself, I don't leave home without a handgun on my person.



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 13):
Is the US really that dangerous that everyone needs a gun.



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 16):
Exactly HOW paranoid can one get?
The statistics prove you wrong.

USA: 11.000 weapon murders on 300 Mio inhabitants = 37 for every million residents.
Germany: 350 for 85 Mio. = 4 for every mio. residents.

Yes, I see. Weapons DO make it safer.

I really could not fathom wanting nor having to carry a firearm on my person at all times during my daily routine. What is it about the US that makes it so much more dangerous than other first world countries? I find it hard to believe that there is a higher percentage of criminals in the US population, compared with other developed nations.

Could it actually be that the widespread availability of firearms is partly responsible for the elevated rates of crime? One would think it may have something to do with it, as the ease of availability of firearms is the only real difference between the US and other first world countries.

It is a somewhat vicious cycle as well. The widespread availability of guns may be partly responsible for elevated crime rates, which gets beaten up in the media, which creates more paranoia which then increases demand for firearms.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 22):
Guns don't make people evil or criminal.

Nope, but they have greatly facilitated many abhorrent crimes carried out by those who aready were "evil" or "criminal".

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
I bet you right now in Europe there are a hell of a lot of Georgians that wish they had privately owned firearms

I bet most Georgians are actually wishing the Russians weren't there in the first place, rather than wishing they had firearms. I'm sure the threat of armed civilians would not have stopped the invasion in the first place.

It is questionable how effective armed civilians would be against a fully trained professional army. How does this justify gun ownership in the US however? The US is probably the country under least threat of invasion by another, unless you really are that paranoid of the Canadians or Mexicans.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
and a bunch of ruskies that are glad they don't.

Could this also apply reverse with respect to US soldiers facing insurgents?

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
johns624
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:31 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 38):
Nope, but they have greatly facilitated many abhorrent crimes carried out by those who aready were "evil" or "criminal

I wasn't talking about criminals. The person I was quoting made it sound like he thought that having a gun would turn a person evil.
As far as carrying a gun, it's just like carrying a spare tire in your car or an insurance card in your wallet. You have it because, although you probably won't need it, if you do, you'll really need it!
 
baroque
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 6):
Quoting Johns624 (Reply 4):
you're unprotected from the time you leave your house until you get back.

You are not serious, are you?
You feel unprotected while not carrying your personal firearm?

11.000 weapon murders a year do speak for themselves, no?

Apparently not in a language we all understand Nico.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 32):
If, as a nation, you guys are prepared to accept a gun homicide rate massively higher than the rest of the western world, just get over it.

Seems so, and increasing the ability to shoot is apparently the only way to lower the homicide rate. Funny I always thought that Wyatt Earp had a different concept. I must have got it wrong.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 36):
Hmmm....they do this in Istanbul, Turkey. scratchchin You have to go through security just to get into the airport. Maybe the Turks are onto something. wink

And primitive old Jakarta has had that at Cengkarang ever since it was opened in the mid 80s. So nothing to do with Jemaah Islamiyah.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 38):
What is it about the US that makes it so much more dangerous than other first world countries?

It is all the guns JetMech me old mate, all the guns, that is what.
 
sv7887
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:41 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 32):
If, as a nation, you guys are prepared to accept a gun homicide rate massively higher than the rest of the western world, just get over it.

Seems so, and increasing the ability to shoot is apparently the only way to lower the homicide rate. Funny I always thought that Wyatt Earp had a different concept. I must have got it wrong.

I think it's not that we "want" a gun culture per se, it's just how to deal with the massive flow of illegal guns in the country.

That's the problem. How do you get illegal guns out of society. It seems the box has been opened up on that one, and even schools are struggling to deal with the problem.

In Boston the illegal gun problem is pretty bad. We are now "conditioned' to accept that someone gets shot every night there.

A few days ago a 4 yr old was killed. A few shouts of outrage, but no one cares after a few days. I still feel sick over it.

None these guns were bought in stores by licensed individuals, and it's largely youth/gang related.

The Police wanted to go door to door asking parents if they knew if their kids had any guns, but the ACLU nutcases went crazy over that. Parents of course play the ignorance card, or hell don't even care what their kids do..

There is also this prevalent "Stop Snitching" (pushing those who do talk to the police) campaign.

It's a cultural and legal problem. Incidentally Youth jobs programs have been very effective at getting these kids off the streets and doing something worthwhile.
 
baroque
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:11 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 41):
That's the problem. How do you get illegal guns out of society. It seems the box has been opened up on that one, and even schools are struggling to deal with the problem.

Start with rationing the ammunition. We had a .45 revolver in the house (but never any ammunition) until WWII started, when it went to a cousin who was fighting in France. After WWII, having guns was just not a normal expectation.

I suppose for the first twenty five years of my life, almost all those older than me had had enough of firing guns. More than enough.

With the US, the NRA has made this expectation popular.

I am sure it could be turned around, but a fair few/most Americans do not want it turned around.

Back in the mid 70s, the Kansas news was almost always started with one to three items with a Sat night special in the background, which usually meant a gun murder in Kansas City.

Much as I dislike Howard and poorly executed as the gun buyback was, Australia does seem to have fewer guns since that occurrence. One advantage is that anyone found here with a gun almost certainly has already committed an offence.

But how to start? You have my sympathy. I have known a few American gun nuts, but most of my American friends are as averse to them as I am.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:06 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 36):
If I find myself in a "life or death" situation, I don't want the situation to be "fair" - I want every advantage possible.

Could the presence of firearms - actual or perceived - be the actual factor itself that turns a beat up into a life and death situation?

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 39):
As far as carrying a gun, it's just like carrying a spare tire in your car or an insurance card in your wallet. You have it because, although you probably won't need it, if you do, you'll really need it!

I understand the self defense side of your argument, but what I don't understand is how a firearm can be seen as just another inanimate object. A spare tire or insurance card are one thing, a firearm quite another.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 41):
How do you get illegal guns out of society.

It's almost impossible to get illegal guns out of society if there are a large number of weapons in general circulation. The widespread production of firearms in the first place is what feeds the black market for illegal weapons.

Laws and regulations are useless once the cat is out of the bag. This is the reason why some are so keen for certain countries not to gain nuclear capability in the first place.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
It is all the guns JetMech me old mate, all the guns, that is what.

I've put this point forward many times, and always run into the "don't blame the inanimate object" argument. Fair enough, but people are the only other factor in the gun crime equation, and we can't exactly identify the "bad" ones readily nor effectively prevent them from getting their hands on a firearm. Oh well  Sad .

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
johns624
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:30 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 43):
I understand the self defense side of your argument, but what I don't understand is how a firearm can be seen as just another inanimate object. A spare tire or insurance card are one thing, a firearm quite another.

Because it is. It's just a tool. You carry it because you might need it, but you don't know when. I saw a good saying awhile ago. To paraphrase-If I knew the day that I was going to need my gun, I wouldn't leave the house.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:57 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 44):
Because it is. It's just a tool. You carry it because you might need it, but you don't know when. I saw a good saying awhile ago. To paraphrase-If I knew the day that I was going to need my gun, I wouldn't leave the house.

That's fair enough Johns. As I mentioned earlier, I am actually becoming quite sympathetic to the self defence side of the argument, but the question remains, how can it be so easy to equate an inanimate object with such destructive potential to another inanimate object that is so benign?

At what point should we draw the line? Would something like a claymore mine or rocket launcher be considered a "tool" as well? I know that these are listed as destructive devices, and as such, are severely restricted, but the point remains; you will probably never need them, but just in case you might is that OK?

Now understandably, this is an extreme example, but then again, a claymore mine and a rocket launcher are the same as a gun, that is, an inanimate object. Since we cannot blame the inanimate object for the actions of the person, doesn't this make a claymore mine or rocket launcher as benign as a spare tyre or insurance card? Can we accept such devices in society if somehow, they are only obtained and kept "legally"?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not getting up you nor dismissing your point of view, I'm merely attempting to extend the issue into areas that currently don't arise in reality, yet.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
johns624
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:01 pm

Becuase of its size and destructive potential, I'd equate a handgun more with a large hunting knife instead of the objects you mentioned. A large knife can be used for field dressing large game or as a cutting instrument in a survival situation. On the other hand, as we have seen in recent incidents in Canada and Great Britain, it can be used by a criminal for much more deadly purposes.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:18 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 46):
Becuase of its size and destructive potential, I'd equate a handgun more with a large hunting knife instead of the objects you mentioned. A large knife can be used for field dressing large game or as a cutting instrument in a survival situation. On the other hand, as we have seen in recent incidents in Canada and Great Britain, it can be used by a criminal for much more deadly purposes.

Fair enough. But are there not legally available firearms that have destructive potential equal to a claymore? I understand equating a handgun to a large knife, but to me at least, the handgun is more potent. It would have been difficult for the V-tech idiot to have taken so many lives with a large knife alone.

Nonetheless, I think that even amongst many of the pro crowd, there is a "line in the sand" between a device that is considered as adequate for personal defense, and one that crosses the line as something capable of blatant destruction.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
baroque
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:31 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 47):
Nonetheless, I think that even amongst many of the pro crowd, there is a "line in the sand" between a device that is considered as adequate for personal defense, and one that crosses the line as something capable of blatant destruction.

But surely a ring of mines, clearly marked just inside your boundary would be purely defensive, so they must meet most of the criteria being offered for self defense.

Not sure about your rocket launchers though JetMech!!

It would be interesting if someone can tell us how the US has got itself into such a collective state of fear of its fellow citizens. Also how do those who eschew guns, manage to survive in what some seem to think is a great deal worse than the average jungle. I find it interesting 'cos I have a few good friends who are either managing to do just that, or are somehow communicating by Email from the afterlife.
 
Acheron
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RE: Gun Lobby Fights Handgun Ban At ATL

Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:16 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 36):
And why wouldn't I? See above. I mean, why should I "just use my fists" if someone's attacking me with only their fists?
I'm smart enough and honest enough with myself to know that I'd get my ass kicked by most in any major "beat up". I'm not a physically strong person. So I will choose to give myself the advantage and use a weapon of some form. End of Discussion.

How about those who will start and argument or pick a fight for petty reasons because, precisely, they know they have the advantage of possessing a gun and that otherwise, their asses would be handed over to them in a silver platter and so wouldn't pick a fight?.
Particularly nightclubs, road rage, etc.

And I'm quite sure those kind of people are more common than those who will only pull out a gun for self-defense

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