MadameConcorde
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Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:55 am

Calling on Dutch A.netters. Need to know if this translation is correct.

******
Dutch biggest newspaper Telegraaf writes today that the decision has been made by the US to attack Iran in the next few weeks. Unmanned aircraft are to be used in this attack. Potential targets are said to not only nuclear facilities but also military installations. The latter have been mapped with the help of the dutch secret service AIVD

Good sources have declared to the Telegraaf that the AIVD has been operating in Iran for the last few years with the purpose of the infiltration and sabotage of the weapons industry of the Iranian republic.
The operations is said to be "very successful" and is recently put to halt because of american plans for airattack. Information out of the AIVD operation have been shared with the CIA in the recent years according to the sources.

Iran propably works to get an atomic bomb and refuses to comply to western demands to stop enriching uranium. In june Israeli vice president Shaul Mofaz made the statement that an Israeli attack is inevitable if Iran continues its quest for atomic weapons.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/1...nval_op_Iran_verwacht__.html?p=2,1
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alberchico
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:28 am

Bomb Iran ???

Why ??? So that they will later pour billions of dollars into terrorist groups who will launch attacks against American interests all over the world. Look at what the Libyans did to Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie. And it took years to find out the real culprits. Not to mention an all out attack and invasion of Iran is completely OUT OF THE QUESTION RIGHT NOW...


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Blackprojects
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:41 am

Unmanned Aircraft = Cruise Missiles its a lot Cheaper and will Save US Pilots being Paraded in-front of the Iranian TV Cameras.

At the Moment 3 US Carrier battle groups are in or near the Gulf so if the US did Knock out Iran's nuclear plants and start dismantling Iran's military machine and Iran did try and Close the Gulf to all shipping it would get very busy in the Straights of Hormuz.



 old 
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:44 am

Added to thiis:

Russia to respond militarily to U.S. missile shield
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080827/116303880.html

MOSCOW, August 27 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has said Russia will have to respond militarily to the deployment of elements of a U.S. missile shield in Central Europe.

The deal to place 10 interceptor missiles in Poland was reached in mid-August, and followed the signing of an agreement on July 8 by the U.S. and Czech foreign ministries to place a U.S. radar in the Czech Republic.

"These missiles are close to our borders and constitute a threat to us," Medvedev said in an interview with Al-Jazeera television on Tuesday. "This will create additional tension and we will have to respond to it in some way, naturally using military means."

 bomb 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:54 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
"These missiles are close to our borders and constitute a threat to us,"

I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland.
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JRadier
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:25 pm

Guys, no stress, it's just 'De Telegraaf'. It's a newspaper version of every gossip magazine you can think of  Wink. It's easy to read, but for real news we go elsewhere.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:29 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 5):
Guys, no stress, it's just 'De Telegraaf'. It's a newspaper version of every gossip magazine you can think of Wink. It's easy to read, but for real news we go elsewhere.

I had a mixed-up feeling about this newspaper. It looked rather like the tabloid kind.
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baroque
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:32 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 5):
Guys, no stress, it's just 'De Telegraaf'. It's a newspaper version of every gossip magazine you can think of Wink. It's easy to read, but for real news we go elsewhere.

Hope you are correct. If the Georgia conspiracy story was half correct it would be a logical follow up. With a distinct possibility that Russia would be drawn in - again!
 
whappeh
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:16 pm

It won't happen. Bet on it.
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moo
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:27 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland.

How can Russia be assured that that is *all* that's being installed there? Would the US take issue with Russian 'defensive' missiles being placed in Cuba?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:46 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
How can Russia be assured that that is *all* that's being installed there?

Nobody, including the Russians, has claimed that anything more substantial than the suped-up Surface-to-Air missiles. Which are defensive by their very nature. These are not ICBMs.

Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
Would the US take issue with Russian 'defensive' missiles being placed in Cuba?

Cuba has russian SAMs. SA-6/-7/-8/-9/-13/-14/-16s, to be exact, plus whatever they have on their naval assets. Big deal. We're not planning an invasion of cuba.

The question remains: Why is Russia getting their panties in a twist over defensive systems, if they have no offensive plans themselves?
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Mir
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:50 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
Would the US take issue with Russian 'defensive' missiles being placed in Cuba?

If Russia were to set up a missile defense system in Cuba, you bet we would do something about it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Cuba has russian SAMs.

There is a difference between SAMs and a missile defense system, even if that missile defense system is made up of modified SAMs.

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Dreadnought
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
There is a difference between SAMs and a missile defense system, even if that missile defense system is made up of modified SAMs.

What is the difference, exactly?

Keep in mind that these ABMs are good for one thing only - the interception of ICBMs and IRBMs. They are useless against cruise missiles, fighter aircraft, and other conventional targets. And the only way they can hurt anyone on the ground is by falling on your head after running out of fuel.

As long as the US has no plans to launch ICBMs or IRBMs at Cuba, why should we care?

And conversely (again) if Russia has no plans against Poland, why should they care?
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johns624
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
Main Dutch Newspaper



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
I had a mixed-up feeling about this newspaper. It looked rather like the tabloid kind.

Which is it?
 
JRadier
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:31 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 13):
Which is it?

Both, I believe it's the newspaper with the highest circulation but it is kind of tabloit-ish.
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David L
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:24 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

 sarcastic  Not this again. Instead of continually posting excerpts from dodgy sources, how about making a bet?
 
Blackprojects
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:31 pm

Russia.

Hmm Lets Se the New guy in Charge was hand picked by Prime Minister / then President Putin for the Job of President and now that Putin is Prime Minister who is really in Charge of Russia.

Medvedev.

I dont think so it"s more like Putin is in Charge doing the old Puppet mater game with him pulling the Strings and telling Medvedev what to say and how to say it.

12 Surface to Air Missiles pose Zero Danger to Russia but the Russians are annoyed that NATO is surrounding her with former Warsaw Pact nations who are now NATO or soon to be NATO Members and Russia do-sent like it So will kick off at the slightest little thing.

The Defence Shield isnt against Russia but against Rogue nations who mite some day get hold of a Long Range ICBM or a Medium IMRBM which can hit NATO countries with a WMD but the Russians would rather it isnt based in Poland why is simple as they see Poland as part of its sphere of influence and now find they are no-longer welcome in Poland or any where else.

Russia is now trying to re-arm and turn her self back into a super power which will take a lot of time and a huge amount of money.

The Quickest way to be a super power is to scare the Shite out of your neighbours by making lots of noise and waving a big Sword at the nearest people to you, It makes the Russian prime minister and president look big in the eyes of the Russian people which is the most important thing to the Russian leader ship.

As for Iran the leadership of Iran is really out there they think they can scare the rest of the world into sub-mission but scaring the Military of a super power into running or sailing away is not an option when that nation gets a huge amount of its oil from the Persian gulf.

Iran is willing and even able to try and force its neighbours into joining Iran weather they want to or not, If Iran gets the bomb it would get very messy for all of us in the west so the sooner the threat is removed the better for all of us.

The real people of Iran are fed up with all the restrictions and threats against the west by the Leadership but with the current way things are governed in Iran they can do nothing to stop the Leadership from forcing them into a war that they can not hope to win.




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cainanuk
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:55 pm

I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland......


Put the shoe on the other foot and say Russia put a missile shield for "defensive purposes" in Cuba and see how you would feel... Oh that's right, I newarly forgot, we had something like that once what was it called again? Oh yeah, the CUBAN MISSILE CRISES... aka 15 minutes to armageddon.
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sv7887
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting Cainanuk (Reply 17):
I am still curious how anyone buys the premise that 10 interceptors - i.e. 30-year old Standard SM-2 Anti-Aircraft missiles with improved software that allows it to hit high-speed targets like incoming missile warheads, constitutes a threat to the Russian homeland......


Put the shoe on the other foot and say Russia put a missile shield for "defensive purposes" in Cuba and see how you would feel... Oh that's right, I newarly forgot, we had something like that once what was it called again? Oh yeah, the CUBAN MISSILE CRISES... aka 15 minutes to armageddon.

You're missing one very important thing...The Cuban Missiles had Nuke Warheads..These are interceptors pure and simple. 10 interceptors do NOTHING to stop Moscow's Nuclear ICBMs, bombers, and Missile Submarines. It's pure posturing..
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:58 am



Quoting Cainanuk (Reply 17):
Put the shoe on the other foot and say Russia put a missile shield for "defensive purposes" in Cuba and see how you would feel... Oh that's right, I newarly forgot, we had something like that once what was it called again? Oh yeah, the CUBAN MISSILE CRISES... aka 15 minutes to armageddon.

If Russia put similar missiles in Cuba, I don't think the U.S. would have any problem with it. They would not be a threat to anyone.
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N1120A
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 16):

The real people of Iran are fed up with all the restrictions and threats against the west by the Leadership but with the current way things are governed in Iran they can do nothing to stop the Leadership from forcing them into a war that they can not hope to win.

The Iranian people have proven in the past that they can rise up and overthrow a dictatorship. The reason they don't now is because they don't want to be caught in a state of flux when an invasion happens. That happened in 1980 and hundreds of thousands of Iranians died.
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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:12 am

*Sigh* I really hope none of this is true... Iraq was fractured, and barely resourseful when the US invaded. Iran? Shit, they have a massive military. The US would need much more than the old "Coalition of the Willing!" They'd need major assistance. The only thing I can maybe think of would be to pull an Israeli-style air raid. They did the same thing to Syria not too long ago. Now the question is, what would Iran do after such a strike? Would they invade a neigbor (say, Iraq?) Would they do as the Syrians, and do nothing? Or, (most dreadfully) would they launch a series of missles and possible war heads at Israel or any other Western-friendly nation in the area? All of this must be considered carefully when talking about military action against Iran.

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David L
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:57 am



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 21):
Now the question is, what would Iran do after such a strike? Would they invade a neigbor (say, Iraq?) Would they do as the Syrians, and do nothing? Or, (most dreadfully) would they launch a series of missles and possible war heads at Israel or any other Western-friendly nation in the area?

Or simply ensure that terrorist activities are stepped up. I doubt the US would risk that. In the eyes of many Americans, Sept. 11th was unprovoked. Resumption of terror activity against US citizens as a direct consequence of an attack on Iran would cripple the government's rating at home.

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 21):
All of this must be considered carefully when talking about military action against Iran.

 checkmark  Some people are confusing a half-hearted wish, born of frustration, with a serious intention to spark a major conflagration.
 
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moo
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:47 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 18):

You're missing one very important thing...The Cuban Missiles had Nuke Warheads..These are interceptors pure and simple. 10 interceptors do NOTHING to stop Moscow's Nuclear ICBMs, bombers, and Missile Submarines. It's pure posturing..

And neither the US nor Russia has the capability to produce nuclear tipped cruise missiles...  Yeah sure

Thats the thing here, Russia has no way of being 100% certain just *what* is being installed - its not like they can pop over whenever they want and wander around the facility to make sure, now is it?

Or are you suggesting they should take another countries word at face value?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:09 am



Quoting Moo (Reply 23):
its not like they can pop over whenever they want and wander around the facility to make sure, now is it?

Regular inspections to bothe the missile site as well as the radar facility are of course part of the arrangement with Russians. The interceptors pose absolutely no threat to their nuclear offensive/retaliatory capability and even the most trigger-happy Russian top brass who have been hurling threats of nuclear armaggeddon the past two years or so know that, this is all for domestic consumption to create favorable conditions for Putin to return to the old Evil Empire ways of doing things.
 
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moo
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:27 am



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Regular inspections to bothe the missile site as well as the radar facility are of course part of the arrangement with Russians.

And just how invasive are those inspections allowed to be? Unconditional? No areas off limits? Nowhere anything can be hidden?

Highly unlikely.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
The interceptors pose absolutely no threat to their nuclear offensive/retaliatory capability and even the most trigger-happy Russian top brass who have been hurling threats of nuclear armaggeddon the past two years or so know that,

Yeah, I guess the Russian 'top brass' are just trolling then...  Yeah sure

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
this is all for domestic consumption to create favorable conditions for Putin to return to the old Evil Empire ways of doing things.

So, yeah, just trolling then eh?  Yeah sure
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:05 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 25):
And just how invasive are those inspections allowed to be? Unconditional? No areas off limits? Nowhere anything can be hidden?

Highly unlikely.

Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System. The offer was specifically to convince the Russians that we want them to be safe too against an attack by a rogue.

This is all posturing by Russia.
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baroque
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:21 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 25):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Regular inspections to bothe the missile site as well as the radar facility are of course part of the arrangement with Russians.

And just how invasive are those inspections allowed to be? Unconditional? No areas off limits? Nowhere anything can be hidden?

Highly unlikely.

I can just imagine the US reaction if the UN inspection terms for Iraq were applied. They might even learn how to say nyet.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System.

Washington has tried to ease Russia's fears about the planned missile shield by offering to share the system's threat warnings and otherwise cooperate.

Ivanov held firm to Russia's criticism of the shield, however, saying: "We cannot understand what Eastern Europe needs this system for."

"What's more, a cheaper counter-measure can be found for any such system," he said.

AND
US makes four-point offer to Russia on missile cooperation
Brussels (AFP) April 19 - The United States has made a four-plank offer to Russia to help ease its fears about US plans for a missile shield in Europe, a NATO official said Thursday. The US offered to share early warning data about missile threats, proposed inter-operability between US and Russian missile systems, committed to holding joint exercises and suggested ideas for a new partnership, the official said. The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, did not elaborate. The offer was made by a US delegation on Tuesday, ahead of talks at NATO headquarters in Brussels between senior NATO and Russian officials on Thursday. Washington announced in January plans to extend its anti-missile shield into Europe, but the move to install interceptors in Poland and a radar system in the Czech Republic have angered Russia.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Russ...S_Offer_On_Missile_Shield_999.html
Not exactly what you stated. Care to provide a source for your version?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:27 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
Not exactly what you stated. Care to provide a source for your version?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/wo...pe/21missile.html?pagewanted=print
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baroque
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:36 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
Not exactly what you stated. Care to provide a source for your version?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/wo...pe/21missile.html?pagewanted=print

The package includes American offers to cooperate on developing defense technology and to share intelligence about common threats, as well as to permit Russian officials to inspect the future missile bases.
is hardly the same as "Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System. The offer was specifically to convince the Russians that we want them to be safe too against an attack by a rogue."

What did you say about posturing?

The real puzzle is why the US lets itself be used:
The concept of sharing antimissile technology with the Russians is hardly new. In fact, even when President Ronald Reagan proposed his grand plan for a leakproof missile shield under the so-called Star Wars program, he pledged that the new technology could be shared with the Kremlin in order to assure Russia that it had nothing to fear from American defenses.

The missile defense proposals for central Europe also have become a proxy issue for Russian officials who still rankle at American and NATO expansion east after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Yet even among some officials in Poland and the Czech Republic, support for the two missile defense bases has more to do with binding the United States closer to their capitals against a future Russian threat than about deterring a future Iranian missile threat.
 
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moo
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:07 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Moo, GW Bush offered to give the Russians, free of charge, the technology and designs needed for Russia to build their own Missile Defence System. The offer was specifically to convince the Russians that we want them to be safe too against an attack by a rogue.

Well, firstly that doesn't solve this little issue - if Russia had the technology there still wouldn't be any way to be 100% sure just what is being installed in Poland short of complete, unfettered, instant access to the site at all times. And we both know that that hasn't been offered and won't ever be offered.

And secondly, Russia isn't in the firing line of the states that this missile shield is supposed to protect from - Russia's probable enemy are precisely the people this missile shield would be useless against because of sheer numbers (IE the US and NATO).

So, sorry but your little tidbit of information is pointless in this discussion.

And I still say that if Russia built a facility in Cuba, there would be huge uproar - the West had enough to say about Russia starting up military flights in international airspace...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:43 pm

Moscow halts Iran cooperation with US, will complete Bushehr reactor

DEBKAfile Special Report
August 30, 2008, 7:32 PM (GMT+02:00)

The Georgia quarrel has all but derailed US-Russian cooperation on the Iran issue. Moscow is not only pulling out of the diplomatic and sanctions front against Iran’s nuclear program; according to DEBKAfile’s Russian sources, Moscow has decided to finally finish building Iran’s nuclear reactor in the southern town of Bushehr before the end of the year, after holding back for five years at Washington’s insistence.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5545
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AF340
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 31):

MadameConcorde, what's with all these dodgy new sources? Debka is known as a source of conspiracy theories...


Show me a real article.



Liam spin 
 
Blackprojects
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:50 pm

Relax the end of the World isnt due till December 2012 this will all blow over and Calm down.
 old 

Or so the Fruits keep saying.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspa

Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 31):
Moscow halts Iran cooperation with US, will complete Bushehr reactor

DEBKAfile Special Report
August 30, 2008, 7:32 PM (GMT 02:00)

The Georgia quarrel has all but derailed US-Russian cooperation on the Iran issue. Moscow is not only pulling out of the diplomatic and sanctions front against Iran%u2019s nuclear program; according to DEBKAfile%u2019s Russian sources, Moscow has decided to finally finish building Iran%u2019s nuclear reactor in the southern town of Bushehr before the end of the year, after holding back for five years at Washington%u2019s insistence.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5545

Of course. the Iranian government supports Russias claim for recognising the independence of South Ossetia and Abchasia. In turn Iran hopes to be accepted into the central Asian security organisation. Interestingly China, another member of this group, rejected Russia's proposal.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=13074&size=A

Jan
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Dougloid
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:11 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 30):
And secondly, Russia isn't in the firing line of the states that this missile shield is supposed to protect from - Russia's probable enemy are precisely the people this missile shield would be useless against because of sheer numbers (IE the US and NATO).

So, sorry but your little tidbit of information is pointless in this discussion.

And I still say that if Russia built a facility in Cuba, there would be huge uproar - the West had enough to say about Russia starting up military flights in international airspace...

That's really the bottom line. It's not aimed at the Russians but they're milking it for all it's worth with the useful idiots of the region.

If the Russians want to build an anti missile battery in Cuba, let them. Who gives a rat's ass? Of course they wouldn't spend the money because there's no reason to do it.

Here's the way I see it. It's meant as a statement to the Iranians that they better not point them toward Europe and try the blackmail with the No Dong, Long Dong or Big Dong Daddy they got from the Beloved Leader of Korea because it's not going to work-their queen is checked. Although not specifically a US problem, our interests are involved if people start blackmailing Europe and extorting concessions.

It's also possible that if Iran launches on Israel that a kill shot could be administered before their missile reached its apogee.

At that point it would be impossible to implement a deterrent and get it up and running.
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11Bravo
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting Moo (Reply 23):
Thats the thing here, Russia has no way of being 100% certain just *what* is being installed - its not like they can pop over whenever they want and wander around the facility to make sure, now is it?

What nefarious items are you suggesting might "really" be deployed at the Polish site? You seem to be suggesting that the US intends to base something other than the planned GMD system in Poland. Are you suggesting there will be offensive missiles? Why would the US do that when we can already rain down nuclear armageddon on Russia from Minuteman bases in the CONUS, SSBNs at sea, and manned bombers?
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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 33):
Relax the end of the World isnt due till December 2012

That's right! December 21st 2012!  Wink

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 36):
You seem to be suggesting that the US intends to base something other than the planned GMD system in Poland.

I think that this is what the Russians are assuming. Post Soviet breakdown, many Russians felt humiliated. Their economy was in shambles, much like their military, and there was not much pride. Yeltsin and the horrible Chechen war rattled the nation even further. But when Putin took power, that is when things began to change. Russians began to have more pride in their nation, and (much like their Soviet past) a great sense of pride in their leader. I think that like many news analysts have stated, Russia is flexing it's muscles again... This concerns the Western world greatly due to the close proximity of Iran. Just Armenia and Azerbaijan stand in between Georgia and Iran. Also, in dealing with Iran, US foreign policy has often times depended on Russia. Even further in this can of worms is Kosovo. Russia's strongest Ally, Serbia, is still furious about that. Iran, Georgia, Russia, Serbia, Kosovo, the EU and the US are all players in this very complicated International drama.

-HSII
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iliribdl
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:23 am

Question for MadameConcorde, do you support the US and the West or are you supporting Russia and their allies?

At least to me it seems that with all these articles that you're bringing up, you're building a case for the Russians and their allies. I might be wrong. You let me know.
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Jetsgo
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:00 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 38):

Are you kidding? That grandma is about as anti-American as they come. It's sickening.
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Mir
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:06 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
What is the difference, exactly?

Your regular SAM is there to stop a conventional tactical air attack. A missile defense system is there to stop a strategic nuclear attack, and eliminate first-strike capability. They are not on the same level at all.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
And conversely (again) if Russia has no plans against Poland, why should they care?

Obviously, the US feels it necessary for some reason to deploy a missile defense on Russia's border. We wouldn't be doing that were we not planning to do something with it, so Russia should be very interested in exactly why we are putting it there.

The US's policy toward Russia post-Cold War has had its drawbacks, particularly the one with regard to NATO expansion. The US was playing as if the Cold War were still going on, trying to isolate the former Soviet satellites from Russia by getting them into NATO and the EU while blocking Russia out. And we wonder why Russia doesn't much care for that and might want to get some influence back?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
It's also possible that if Iran launches on Israel that a kill shot could be administered before their missile reached its apogee.

From Poland? Seems a little out of the way for that.

-Mir
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David L
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:36 am

Let me start by saying that I don't agree with what Russia is doing in Georgia and I don't trust Putin. However, I don't agree with the way Georgia behaved in South Ossetia nor the way the West reacted, either. It seems to me that all sides are being hypocritical about South Ossetia's move for independence by taking pretty much the opposite views to those they took during the breakup of Yugoslavia, for example.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Obviously, the US feels it necessary for some reason to deploy a missile defense on Russia's border. We wouldn't be doing that were we not planning to do something with it, so Russia should be very interested in exactly why we are putting it there.

The US's policy toward Russia post-Cold War has had its drawbacks, particularly the one with regard to NATO expansion. The US was playing as if the Cold War were still going on, trying to isolate the former Soviet satellites from Russia by getting them into NATO and the EU while blocking Russia out. And we wonder why Russia doesn't much care for that and might want to get some influence back?

 checkmark  The Russians' view is that an advanced defence system on their borders would reduce their chances of fighting back IF they were attacked by the west, therefore weakening their position on the world stage. Now, I don't believe the west has any plans to attack but that's not the point.
 
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:21 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Yet even among some officials in Poland and the Czech Republic, support for the two missile defense bases has more to do with binding the United States closer to their capitals against a future Russian threat than about deterring a future Iranian missile threat.

What's so difficult to understand about Polish/Czech effort to seek additional security against Russian bullying?
The striking similarity between Russian actions in August '68 and August '08 only proved right those who claimed that nothing changed and proved wrong (at that time) idealists like Czech ex-pres Havel who gave a speech in US Congress in 1990 and said something along the lines of "the most you will us [CEE Europe] is by helping the Soviet Union" because the belief at that time was that economically stable will not be threat to its neighbors.
The reality is - unfortunately - quite opposite, the more wealthy Russia is getting the more dangerous they're becoming.
 
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:21 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
That's really the bottom line. It's not aimed at the Russians but they're milking it for all it's worth with the useful idiots of the region.

My own opinion is that it was primarily the 'balance' of NATO and Russian nuclear weapons that prevented the Cold War from becoming a hot one some time in the Sixties. You'll remember the old "MAD' tag ('Mutually-Assured Destruction') as well as I do.

The point was (and remains) that since ICBMs are unstoppable, whichever side fired first, they would face the certainty of retaliation - more damage than they could possibly 'absorb.' And the equally-important sub-plot was (is?) that the leaders of the countries concerned would 'cop it' as much, or more, as their subjects; there would be many missiles aimed specifically at THEM, and it would only need one to get through.

So any 'anti-missile' system is an attempt to destroy that 'balance of power' and leave it open to the side that has such a system to fire without fear of retaliation. That, plus current US policy of establishing a growing ring of bases right round Russia, is a clear provocation, to which the Russians cannot fail to respond.

The whole idea is a silly one anyway. Most engineering opinion holds that even if you could produce an anti-missile programme that works at all, there is no way that it could be anything like 100% foolproof. And there are so many ICBMs in commission that neither side could be certain of stopping all, or even most, of them.

So the Sixties logic still holds true - neither side can afford to fire because of the certainty of massive retaliation.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
It's also possible that if Iran launches on Israel that a kill shot could be administered before their missile reached its apogee.

What on earth does a defence line in Poland have to do with Israel? Especially since Iran is at least five years away from developing nukes, and probably decades from developing any sort of ICBM?

Unless Russia makes them a present of some, of course. Which isn't entirely out of the question, if the USA keeps provoking them........

[Edited 2008-08-31 04:33:31]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:38 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
What on earth does a defence line in Poland have to do with Israel? Especially since Iran is at least five years away from developing nukes, and probably decades from developing any sort of ICBM?

I am glad it is not just me who has a problem working out why Iran would program its missels to fly by Poland on their way. Delaying the apogee that long would be really tricky. And would Czech radars even see them if they did not do such a circuitous approach?
 
iliribdl
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:15 pm



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 39):
Are you kidding? That grandma is about as anti-American as they come. It's sickening.

It seems that way from every post that I've read. Wonder if she has ever visited the US.
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moo
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:38 pm



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 36):
What nefarious items are you suggesting might "really" be deployed at the Polish site? You seem to be suggesting that the US intends to base something other than the planned GMD system in Poland. Are you suggesting there will be offensive missiles? Why would the US do that when we can already rain down nuclear armageddon on Russia from Minuteman bases in the CONUS, SSBNs at sea, and manned bombers?

No, I'm suggesting there is no way, short of full unfettered access to the site day or night, to convince someone otherwise.

You really think the game of global stand off is a rational one? Besides, your last point can be applied to every single overseas US base in the world.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:10 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 38):
Question for MadameConcorde, do you support the US and the West or are you supporting Russia and their allies?

At least to me it seems that with all these articles that you're bringing up, you're building a case for the Russians and their allies. I might be wrong. You let me know.

I am not supporting -or trusting- either. Bushco is evil, so is Putin.
However it is not good to ignore the facts.

Russia threatens to supply Iran with top new missile system as 'cold war' escalates
31st Aug 2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-system-as-cold-war-escalates.html

Russia is deploying the threat to sell a "game changing" air defence system to Iran as a high stakes bargaining chip in its new "cold war" with America, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.

US intelligence fears the Kremlin will supply the sophisticated S-300 system to Tehran if Washington pushes through Nato membership for its pro-Western neighbours Georgia and Ukraine. The proposed deal is causing huge alarm in the US and Israel as the S-300 can track 100 targets at once and fire on planes up to 75 miles away.
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iliribdl
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:03 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 47):
I am not supporting -or trusting- either. Bushco is evil, so is Putin.
However it is not good to ignore the facts.

I will not take anything seriously from you if you put Bush in the same league as Putin.

No one is ignoring facts, it just seems that you're bringing facts from the Russian point of view, which are totally biased.
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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Attack On Iran Imminent Says Main Dutch Newspaper

Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:28 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 48):
I will not take anything seriously from you if you put Bush in the same league as Putin.

To be fair, you do have a bit of a conflict of interest there... However, with Putin's death-grip on democracy in Russia, I have to agree that Bush can not be placed in the same category of Putin.

-HSII
Heja Sverige!!

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