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OA260
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Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:33 pm

Sad to see this in modern day Ireland. Even worse that some parents would throw their kids out for being Gay.


By Jimmy Woulfe, Mid-West Correspondent
HOMOPHOBIA is still a significant problem in schools, with teachers ill-equipped to talk about the issue of sexuality, a support network for gays and lesbians has claimed.


Rainbow Support Services (RSS) said it was recently forced to find accommodation for a 16-year-old boy and girl from the mid-west after they were forced out of their homes and schools after ‘coming out’ about being gay.

RSS co-ordinator Vanessa Buswell said the teenagers had to find work after they were “thrown out” of home. She said homophobia was a greater problem in schools than in the home.

http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer...qqa=ireland-qqqid=71060-qqqx=1.asp
 
Mir
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:01 pm

Their parents should be charged with child neglect. They have a responsibility to raise their kids until they are legal adults, regardless of what the sexual orientation of their child is.

-Mir
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kc135topboom
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:02 pm

To bad Ireland does not have a Paul Harvey, so you could get "the rest of the story".

Somehow, I think there is more to this than what the news media, or RSS has to say....  Confused
 
Charles79
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Somehow, I think there is more to this than what the news media, or RSS has to say....

Perhaps, but the fact is that there are still a multitude of communities in the Western world where homophobia is still accepted and nurtured. I know first hand of many cases right here in the US where parents have thrown their kids out of the house for being gay.

The best weapon we have to fight this with is education, the same way we fought (and in some areas still fight) racism, discrimination, etc. But isn't it just terrible how we humans are, that we always have to pick on a group to step on? Blacks, whites, Jews, women, gays, handicapped, blind, mentally ill, what have you, we always find a group that "doesn't fit the norm" to pick on.
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:39 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Their parents should be charged with child neglect. They have a responsibility to raise their kids until they are legal adults, regardless of what the sexual orientation of their child is.

Yeah no kidding - that mom from Florida is under investigation for just ignoring her kid. Parents shouldn't just be able to get away with throwing their kid out of the house ...
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ajd1992
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 4):

Yeah no kidding - that mom from Florida is under investigation for just ignoring her kid. Parents shouldn't just be able to get away with throwing their kid out of the house ...

Yet the sad thing is, at least in the UK a lot of parents of Gay, Bi and Transgender kids do. They just throw them out and don't give a flying monkeys what happens to them.

I know all of my friends who have came out (ok, that's 3 of them, all girls. I say that because girls have it 100 times easier than guys do) had very supportive parents, and in one case her mum came out to her too. I've come out to my friends parents before my own dad because I'm sure he'd throw me out.

Saying that, if a parent cannot accept something their child can't help - what use are they as a parent anyway?
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Somehow, I think there is more to this than what the news media, or RSS has to say.

The article does give quite a lot of "the rest of the story."  confused 

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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:35 am



Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
HOMOPHOBIA is still a significant problem in schools, with teachers ill-equipped to talk about the issue of sexuality, a support network for gays and lesbians has claimed.

This doesn't surprise me, but the fact that two teenagers were "forced out" of their homes and schools after coming out does. There's probably nothing that can be done about the parents of these kids, but I'm pretty sure that equality legislation would cover the latter.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being

Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:15 am

This IMO falls in the same line as kicking a teenage girl out after she becomes pregnant.

Jan

[Edited 2008-09-01 04:16:41]
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ltbewr
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:04 pm

For many parents of teen children who realize their being gay or lesbian, it is a very shocking event. Many don't know how to react, feel they have themselves to blame, fear how relatives and their sometimes small towns will see them. All people want their children to be normal, with minimal issues that could affect them negatively in their lives and makes the parents 'look bad'. 'Then you have the still very real discrimination that still exists for those who are gay/lesiban. This is further worsened by being in a place like Ireland with a overwhelming dominance of a faith that sees homosexuality as a sin.

Probably the best bet for these teens is to move to a more tolerant place, like a major city in Ireland or maybe to the UK or the USA. The parents should also be dragged into court for their abandoned of their minor children and have to pay child support.
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:22 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Somehow, I think there is more to this than what the news media, or RSS has to say.

The article does give quite a lot of "the rest of the story."

No, it does not. I have re-read the story, and it is all one sided.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 3):
Blacks, whites, Jews, women, gays, handicapped, blind, mentally ill, what have you, we always find a group that "doesn't fit the norm" to pick on.

We, as the US have come a long way towards a more nuteral and acceptance socity. We still have some ways to go, but we are much better than we were in the 1800s and even in the 1960s. Most of the rest of the world, including the pompous EU is way behind the US in this. But, in both the US and EU, the new group to discrimiminate against is the white male, between 30 and 65, and Catholic or Baptist, and a straight sexual prefence. The next most accepted group to discrimiminate against is anyone who calls them selves a Christian.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
For many parents of teen children who realize their being gay or lesbian, it is a very shocking event. Many don't know how to react, feel they have themselves to blame, fear how relatives and their sometimes small towns will see them.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
The parents should also be dragged into court for their abandoned of their minor children and have to pay child support.

Well, if we are talking about minors here, then we must examin how these children became gay. Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children. If it is an adult, then that person is guilty of child molestation. In the US, children under the age of 18 cannot consent to sexual relationships, the older person (even if under 18) is guilty of statuary rape, period.

I have no problem with someone 18 or older making a choice to be straight, gay, or bi, but those under 18 do not have the rights to make that choice. The parents are responsible, and they need to be included in the decision in the child's sexual prefence, not some friend, another adult, relitive, or other person the child has a relationship with.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
All people want their children to be normal, with minimal issues that could affect them negatively in their lives and makes the parents 'look bad'.

I think you are missing the point here. Most parents want what is best for their children, as the parents define that. Now, there are parents that simply do not get fully involved in the social developement of their children. Those people should not have children. Additionally, children do not come with an "owners manula" like your new car does. You have to learn from your own mistakes in properly raising your child. When you have someone outside the family interfer with that process, to teach the child something that you (personally) do not believe in, that creates problems. Problems the person who taught the activities the parents don't belive in, does not have to ever face.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
'Then you have the still very real discrimination that still exists for those who are gay/lesiban. This is further worsened by being in a place like Ireland with a overwhelming dominance of a faith that sees homosexuality as a sin.

So, since Ireland is a predomiminetly a Catholic country, the church is the problem? What about Saudia Arabia, they mostly practice Islam, and do not accept the gay life style, either.

Within the US, no more than 3% of the population is gay, within the entire world's population, it is less than 1%, yet in the EU, some 15% of the population openly discribe them selves as gay. So that means that in the US 97%, world 99% and Europe 85% of the population consider themselves as straight. But, we only hear about those people who are or support gay issues, and don't always tell the full story.
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:29 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Well, if we are talking about minors here, then we must examin how these children became gay. Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children. If it is an adult, then that person is guilty of child molestation. In the US, children under the age of 18 cannot consent to sexual relationships, the older person (even if under 18) is guilty of statuary rape, period.

I was about 13 (7th grade) when I finally realized I was. I wasn't molested, raped, or "taught" to be gay by anyone. Inferring that being gay is somehow always the result of abuse is completely incorrect. Gays are not "damaged goods" that need to be fixed.
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children.

Tell me I'm not reading this... please, tell me I'm not...  Yeah sure

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
I have no problem with someone 18 or older making a choice to be straight, gay, or bi, but those under 18 do not have the rights to make that choice.

A choice??!! Someone needs some sex ed here...
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seb146
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children.

Really? So, I guess I learned to be gay between birth and 5 years old. I did not know or understand what it ment, but I knew when I was 5 I very clearly remember playing house with another boy. I would "cook" and "clean" and he would go out to "work."

But, I guess I learned all that.

By the time I was 11, I really knew I liked other guys. I had never touched another male. Another male had never touched me. I grew up in rural Oregon, 200 miles from the city. I actually did not have any physical relations of any kind with another man until I was 19.

But, I learned to be gay, I guess. No gay role models, no influence but heterosexuals, yet I am gay. Is that learned behavior?

Back on topic: This still happens today in the United States. Even in the cities. People still throw out their gay children. I did not really come out until after college because I had no where to go. I wanted to prepare for the worst. Thankfully, the worst was not bad at all. Some I thought were friends turned their back on me and I was fired from one job. Big deal. I got over it and moved to Portland.

However, minors do not have the resources to move to a city. If a child is thrown out with literally only the clothes on their back, they can not make it to a city. Those are the ones that are exploited.
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StarAC17
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:57 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
I have no problem with someone 18 or older making a choice to be straight, gay, or bi, but those under 18 do not have the rights to make that choice. The parents are responsible, and they need to be included in the decision in the child's sexual prefence, not some friend, another adult, relitive, or other person the child has a relationship with.

If being gay was a lifestyle choice then knowing that it will hurt you and could get you killed in some places why would anyone choose it.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Within the US, no more than 3% of the population is gay, within the entire world's population, it is less than 1%, yet in the EU, some 15% of the population openly discribe them selves as gay. So that means that in the US 97%, world 99% and Europe 85% of the population consider themselves as straight. But, we only hear about those people who are or support gay issues, and don't always tell the full story.

It's higher in the US and EU because its somewhat socially acceptable more in the EU than in the US on the whole. In most places in the world its not tolerated in any way so people end up hiding and denying it and that can lead to massive psychological trauma as well as someone who might because a sexual predator.
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UAL747
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:40 pm

Ugh, just when I thought we'd moved past this entirely crappy subject, here we are again with KC135TopBoom...

Jeez, all I have the energy to do is roll my eyes.

But guess what, I knew I was gay around 11, nobody taught me to be gay, I grew up in the football watchin' beer drinkin' Southern Baptist family and I still turned out to be gay. Nobody taught me shit.

And, guess what, at 15 I was molested, by a Christian who claimed to be "cleansing me of being gay." Also the day that Christians start ACTING like Christians and aren't hypocrits, then I will not have a prejudice.

Parents or in my case grandparents can be extremely cruel when it comes to being gay. Not to mention the rest of society. The first thing my grandmother said to me was that I was headed down a one way street, was going to get AIDS and die. Then there was talking of cutting me off financially out of certain individuals' wills. It's a mind game they play and they transfer their "shame" which they shouldn't feel, to their children and grandchildren. It's sad. It's not a choice, it's biological.

You know, I don't ask much of people, and you are entitled to your opinion, however, if you are going to make an argument, please do so with an educated opinion. Note, books of fiction, such as the Bible, are not good places to start your research.

UAL

[Edited 2008-09-01 10:51:33]
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:17 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children.

 eyepopping 

What an amazing statement.
 
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OA260
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:59 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior.

If you really believe that then I truly feel sorry for you because thats something that has been taught to you by evil uneducated people. Its sad that in a relatively Westernised country like the USA that such backward views still thrive.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
What about Saudia Arabia, they mostly practice Islam, and do not accept the gay life style, either.

Oh that makes it alright then ....
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:04 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Most of the rest of the world, including the pompous EU is way behind the US in this.

So so wrong ! You actually think your further ahead on Human Rights than the UK for example ? Me thinks you need to read up a bit.

And for the rest of your statement; my god.....you have a right to your opinion albeit I find it personally rather sickening, but you are far far behind the modern world. Get with it or be left behind sir !
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 14):
If being gay was a lifestyle choice then knowing that it will hurt you and could get you killed in some places why would anyone choose it.

Because gay people are as stupid and self destructive as their straight counterparts, in some ways more and in some ways less.

Either way, parents are entitled to say "Here's the rules. If you can't abide them for whatever reasons, find yourself another place for chowin' because I'm through feeding you mine."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
UAL747
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:17 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 20):
"Here's the rules. If you can't abide them for whatever reasons, find yourself another place for chowin' because I'm through feeding you mine."

So if a girl's breasts start growing too large during puberty for the parent's liking, then they can tell her to get the "F" out of their house?

UAL
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Dougloid
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:33 pm



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 21):
So if a girl's breasts start growing too large during puberty for the parent's liking, then they can tell her to get the "F" out of their house?

UAL

Unresponsive and beside the point, even for you.

If your parents don't like what you do, and you keep doing it despite their entreaties, why, common sense tells you you might get tossed out on your ear.

What about "it's not your house, it's your parents' and if you can't live by their rules they're within their rights to stop supporting you" do you not understand?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
UAL747
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being

Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:06 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 22):
Unresponsive and beside the point, even for you.

If your parents don't like what you do, and you keep doing it despite their entreaties, why, common sense tells you you might get tossed out on your ear.

What about "it's not your house, it's your parents' and if you can't live by their rules they're within their rights to stop supporting you" do you not understand?

My comment was not beside the point....

A girl can't control the size of her breasts, just the same way a guy or girl cannot choose their sexuality. The only books out there that have ANY weight that say otherwise are the Bible and Koran. Every other scientific book in modern sexuality research says otherwise.

Your sexuality is not a behavior, it is a biological response to stimuli from either male or female counterparts. Now a parent has every right to say that you may NOT have sex in my house. That is an entirely different subject, but a parent cannot control in any form or fashion their child's sexuality, and to repress the healthy growth of that and give them confidence in who they really are, is abusive. I'm not saying that they should let them go out and have sex, but I'm saying that they should let them know that it's okay to be who you are from all aspects, including your sexuality.

I repressed my sexuality and hid it for 11 years, and it does SIGNIFICANT psychological damage. I did so because I, like many other people, were afraid of what people would say or do to me, or how my parents might react and possibly hate me for it.

Being a kid and being gay is scary enough without your parents throwing you out on the streets.

What don't YOU get about that DOUGLOID?

UAL

[Edited 2008-09-01 13:08:07]
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iflykpdx
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:21 pm

Indeed, the only real "choice" those who are gay or bisexual have is to accept themselves or live a lie. Those who can accept it I would think would tend to be much happier in life than those who use whatever excuse (religion, social stigma, whatever) to live heterosexually and suffer lord knows what psych issues in life.
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being

Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:37 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
No, it does not. I have re-read the story, and it is all one sided.

The facts are not in dispute, so perhaps the story is one-sided. No one has ever presented me with an objective reason why any parent kicks their child out of the house for "being gay".

And you certainly don't do it, with statements such as:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my own case that is absolutely not true.

I had no choice about being attracted to the same sex. I was first aware of it by the time I was six years old, and it had nothing to do with "contact" - there had been none. It was not in any way learned.

The only eventual "choice" I had was between being sexually active and sexually inactive.

mariner
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UAL747
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:40 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 27):
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my own case that is absolutely not true.

I have never in my 28 year life run across someone who has said, "I chose to be gay"....never....

UAL
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kaitak
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:49 pm

It is absolutely appalling that anything like this should happen in Ireland or anywhere; whether a child is gay, pregnant, transgender or whatever, you deal with the individual and help the individual, not work by the rulebook of an organisation which has very little understanding of human psychology and more worryingly, little interest in learning. Perhaps a little background might be helpful here ..

I think the background to this story is that there is a looming battle in Ireland over plans by the govt to bring about legal gay partnerships and this is also likely to have an effect on any re-run of the Lisbon treaty vote (which the Irish rejected recently). Within the last week, Cardinal Brady hinted strongly that certain elements of EU social policy - and when asked if this included gay rights, he said yes - caused disquiet. The Catholic church and all of the "religious right" in Ireland are going to go full throttle against anything like this ... but perhaps not quite "straightforwardly" ...

Without wishing to engage in inappropriate levity, I can't help recalling that episode of Fr. Ted where he says, "The people of Craggy Island will not stand for a world free of sexual and religious intolerance". Unfortunately, this has been a feature of Irish society for many years and has been strongly pushed by the Church. Many years ago, thankfully before my time, we had a very strong - and deeply conservative - Archbishop of Dublin, the infamous John Charles McQuaid. He was only slightly to the right of Jesse Helms and he was instrumental in torpedoeing many efforts to bring about social change through the years. The child abuse scandals - of which we have not heard the end, sadly - have devastated the Church's moral authority, but there is still a strong right wing Catholic element in Ireland.

We do have legislation to protect gays against hate crimes in Ireland and of course, we have EU Court precedents on many other social issues, such as the treatment of transgendered persons and discrimination against gays. We are moving forward, but slowly. This is going to be a very hard fought battle and the government, which is not particularly sure-footed, is anxious to avoid issues which might prevent the passing of the Lisbon treaty; the legalisation of gay partnerships would probably rank high among the issues it doesn't want to deal with.

Although a practising Catholic myself, I am strongly secular; I don't see a conflict there. People may well call me an "a la carte" Catholic, but to me, the whole purpose of the separation of Church and State is the we do not have one particularly religion or moral standpoint influencing the way we treat minorities. I believe that everyone should have the right to maximise their potential as human beings and that the state should help to make that possible - apart from the obvious ways (education, law and order) - by protecting those who might be subject to discrimination. I see that as moral; I cannot accept that there should be any element of the population who should be beyond the protection of the law and when I see the US example (and here I speak as a joint US-Irish national, so please don't see this as anti-American), where the protection of transsexuals was removed from ENDA because it would never be passed by Republicans, I have to say that I was appalled. To me, this is simply not Christian and the fact that these very basic rights are actively opposed by "Christian fundamentalists" is anathema.

The freedoms we have are hard fought and should not be tempered by any organisation; the Church and its members are as subject to the law as anyone else; it (and indeed all religions) benefit from freedom of religion, but that right must not be used to deny others their freedom and dignity.
 
Hywel
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:58 pm

Things like this will always happen, and there'll always be 2 types of people, either shouting in protest or smiling in glee.

No point in trying to change what happened, it's already happened and it will happen again.

Just be glad that your life is not as hard and get on with it...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:05 pm

About 8 years ago I had, while on a journey with my girlfriend, serious problems in buying condoms in rural parts of western Ireland (Connemara, Co. Sligo). The chemists in several villages or small towns openly told me that they were not selling contraceptives due to their beliefs. Sucks if this is the only chemist within 20 miles and you don't have a car, like most teenagers.
Also, a German couple I met while living in Ireland told me that the only gynaecologist in Connemara at this time refused the wife a prescription for the anti-baby pill, even though this couple had at this time already 3 children and decided that this was enough. The female gynaecologist actually told the woman that she expects to see her soon again, being pregnant, since she was, in her early 30s, still young enough to have several children more.

BTW, I never had problems buying contraceptives in urban areas in Ireland, especially Dublin or Limerick.

Jan
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 28):
Although a practising Catholic myself, I am strongly secular; I don't see a conflict there. People may well call me an "a la carte" Catholic, but to me, the whole purpose of the separation of Church and State is the we do not have one particularly religion or moral standpoint influencing the way we treat minorities. I believe that everyone should have the right to maximise their potential as human beings and that the state should help to make that possible - apart from the obvious ways (education, law and order) - by protecting those who might be subject to discrimination. I see that as moral; I cannot accept that there should be any element of the population who should be beyond the protection of the law and when I see the US example (and here I speak as a joint US-Irish national, so please don't see this as anti-American), where the protection of transsexuals was removed from ENDA because it would never be passed by Republicans, I have to say that I was appalled. To me, this is simply not Christian and the fact that these very basic rights are actively opposed by "Christian fundamentalists" is anathema.

Since you mentioned McQuaid, you know that he tried to influence Taoiseach (Prime minister) Eamon de Valera back in the 1930s, when the Irish constitution was being written, to make Roman-Catholicism official religion of the Republic of Ireland. Fortunately the leader of the Dublin Jewish community, who was on good term with de Valera, managed to convince him to make politics officially neutral. Still, for about 50 years, the Catholic church was very influential, e.g. in eduction. When I was there, most schools were run by either the Roman-Catholic church or by the Church of Ireland (Anglicans).

Jan
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Braybuddy
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:52 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
This is further worsened by being in a place like Ireland with a overwhelming dominance of a faith that sees homosexuality as a sin.

The Catholic Church doesn't have the hold on this country the way it used to. The sexual scandals in the church over the last 20 years have disillusioned many, and cost the church dearly. If it weren't for the recent influx of Polish workers to the country the Catholic Church here would be in crisis.

On the whole this country is quite tolerant towards homosexuality. I've never, ever had any hassle or suffered social exclusion. There's always been a "root-for-the-underdog" sort of mentality here, which no doubt helps. The government is dragging its heels on a civil partnership bill, but it will come in the not-too-distant future, although actual marriage is definitely off the agenda for the time being.
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 35):
although actual marriage is definitely off the agenda for the time being.

Something similar may have happened in New Zealand.

The governmant, fairly rationally, decided that that it has no place in the church and cannot dictate religious creed - what the church (any church) believes is the church's business and what the state does is the state's business.

So, despite uproar from some churches, the government provided state 'marriage' - that is civil unions.

mariner
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):

You want to tell me that gays are heathen? Fine.

You want to tell me that gays are all going to hell? Fine.

You want to tell me that homosexuality is a sin? Fine.

But whatever you do, don't you dare do my homosexual friends, who have had to put up with ridicule, self-doubt, and worrying about possibly disappointing their loved ones, the disservice of telling them that they chose this. Because I guarantee you, no one would put themselves through this by choice.
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:29 pm



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 35):
If it weren't for the recent influx of Polish workers to the country the Catholic Church here would be in crisis.

Very true. Although I do not have anything against the Catholic church I dont think they should have political clout.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 35):
civil partnership bill, but it will come in the not-too-distant future,

Any ideas what it will mean for your average couple? Tax rights? Inheritance? imigration?
 
Mir
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:33 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
This IMO falls in the same line as kicking a teenage girl out after she becomes pregnant.

Except that she chose to become pregnant. Nobody chooses to be gay.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Well, if we are talking about minors here, then we must examin how these children became gay. Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children.

Wow. The 1940s called, and they want their views back. They're certainly not much use in this decade.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 22):
If your parents don't like what you do, and you keep doing it despite their entreaties, why, common sense tells you you might get tossed out on your ear.

What about "it's not your house, it's your parents' and if you can't live by their rules they're within their rights to stop supporting you" do you not understand?

This is not about parents not liking what their kids do, it's about them not liking who their kids are. It would be like parents implementing a rule that "you cannot be nearsighted" and kicking their kids out of the house if they should need glasses at some point - ridiculous and despicable.

Parents do not have the right to stop supporting their kids before they're adults. If you have a kid, you accept the fact that you will be responsible for that kid come hell or high water for the next 18 years, end of story. If you can't accept that then don't have a kid.

-Mir
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:44 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
This IMO falls in the same line as kicking a teenage girl out after she becomes pregnant.

Except that she chose to become pregnant. Nobody chooses to be gay.

In the rarest cases it is a concious decision to become pregnant, at least for a teenager (mature women in a stable situation might have a concious wish to become mothers).
Ok, it is a concious decision to have sex, but as I stated previously with rural Ireland as an example, contraceptives might be hard to get especially for a teenager.
Then, no contraceptive is 100 % failsafe.
So, for heterosexual teenagers in certain conservative areas, it might just be the same choice as for gays:
Live your sexuality with all risks (for teenage girls to become pregnant and be outcast or for gays to come out and be outcast, in both cases for bringing disgrace to the family), or stay totally abstinent.
In both cases traditionasl customs and religion operate with fear.
Interestingly, while pregnant female teenagers often get kicked out of school as well, the father can continue with his education and is usually regarded as a "great stud".

Jan
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Mir
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:03 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 40):
Ok, it is a concious decision to have sex, but as I stated previously with rural Ireland as an example, contraceptives might be hard to get especially for a teenager.

Sure, but you know that sex without contraceptives can lead to pregnancy (or you should). So even if you can't get condoms, you're still deciding to have sex knowing that you could get pregnant (me saying "chose to get pregnant" was too drastic, and I apologize for the overstatement).

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 40):
Then, no contraceptive is 100 % failsafe.

Of course. But that's not a secret either, so even if you do use them, you know that the risk of getting pregnant is still there, only in a much reduced form.

But there's still a big difference between being pregnant and being gay. You have to decide to have sex to be pregnant (excluding rape, which is a different case altogether and doesn't really enter into this discussion). Being gay just happens to you.

-Mir
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ajd1992
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:39 pm

Ok, I posted a post with an F-bomb in it, and it was deleted. I was rather annoyed so I shall remove the F-bomb and repost, as otherwise it was not rude or anything. (Gofly, I realise now i was wrong. I shouldn't have put it in there.)

----Post----

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Well, if we are talking about minors here, then we must examin how these children became gay. Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children. If it is an adult, then that person is guilty of child molestation. In the US, children under the age of 18 cannot consent to sexual relationships, the older person (even if under 18) is guilty of statuary rape, period.

I have no problem with someone 18 or older making a choice to be straight, gay, or bi, but those under 18 do not have the rights to make that choice. The parents are responsible, and they need to be included in the decision in the child's sexual preference, not some friend, another adult, relitive, or other person the child has a relationship with.

Well, if you're straight then you were molested by a female. Or I was molested by both.

I think you'll find you are born straight, gay, bi, or whatever. I never "learned" to like both, because my dad is straight, my mother died when i was 7 and I only really got attracted to guys at around 9 or 10.

You do not make a choice to be gay. Let us just get that clear from the start, and here's why:

Who would WANT to make a conscious, sane choice to be possibly persecuted, made fun of, and generally have a difficult teenage-hood (ok, some don't, some do). Who would want that? Not many. But people have to come out and be themselves otherwise what's the point in living? Living a lie is no fun.

I came out at 14, best choice of my life to date. My dad gave me "the talk" on sex at 10, just before I started high school at 11. He made it very hetero orientated, so tell me.... if that isn't deciding my sexual preference, what is?

Did your parents decide your orientation? I think not. I don't see how it becomes different for men doing men, men doing women, men doing women and men or whatever. Nobody told me to be bisexual - I just was. I spent a lot of my early teens depressed about that - I was scared of what would possibly happen. As it turns out, 99% of people didn't give a shit, like most parents don't give a shit if their kids are gay or not.

My first relationship was with a girl, at the end of last year. I was attracted to her, then we broke up after 2 months. I still am attracted to her, to a point. Only because she was my first gf and we split up for reasons out of our control. Then I had a boyfriend for nearly 3 months. Was that relationship "illegitimate" because i'm not 16*? (Age of consent is 16 here).

I know i'm bi, i've known since I was about 9 and no stupid goons are going to tell me i'm not. I know i am because i've done sexual things with both sexes and enjoyed it. You as a straight man especially have no right to tell people who have had the hardship of growing up homosexual that they aren't allowed the right to be gay till they're 18. It's easy to be straight. Be gay and believe me, your life is incredibly different.

You may want to read a little into child sexuality and come back slightly more informed. I'll be nice and give you a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexuality

Sorry if it came across as rude but that seriously riled me up  

*I have since turned 16.

[Edited 2008-09-01 16:49:44]
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:02 am



Quoting IflyKPDX (Reply 11):
I was about 13 (7th grade) when I finally realized I was. I wasn't molested, raped, or "taught" to be gay by anyone. Inferring that being gay is somehow always the result of abuse is completely incorrect. Gays are not "damaged goods" that need to be fixed.



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 14):
If being gay was a lifestyle choice then knowing that it will hurt you and could get you killed in some places why would anyone choose it.

Both very well said.

It amazes me to this day and age we still have backwards thinking like KC135TopBoom, and by the way to my fellow gay men and woman would the name KC135TopBoom be an ideal user name on a gay website.


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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:15 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children. If it is an adult, then that person is guilty of child molestation. In the US, children under the age of 18 cannot consent to sexual relationships, the older person (even if under 18) is guilty of statuary rape, period.

My jaw dropped at this.

... and I have all the respect for you and your posts 100% usually, but I have to take dire exception to this.

When I was in high school, I thought it was perfectly natural to "have a girlfriend" and yet be totally in love with other guys in my class. It was no problem - didn't cross my mind that I was unusual, I thought that was how everyone was... because that was how I was.

I had girlfriends, and yet it didn't seem the same to me as when I liked guys. As I progressed to an age of 17 or 18, I realised I was probably gay and yet I didn't think it was anything unusual. I didn't have the self-realisation to know that it was "unusual" - it just was.

I was one who just followed their natural urges. No-one ever touched me, molested me or anything like that. I liked guys and that was that. Once I came to the realisation, I had the same interesting coming out as just about most guys do... and i dealt with my sexuality in another way that doesn't need repeating here.

While your point may cover 1% of gay people, the reality is that most of us are just attracted to the same sex and to us it feels as natural as it is for you to want to do a girl. You need to look at it from that perspective - my love for men is the same as straight guys love for women. No difference, no sinister crap.... 100% the same. For us who are gay, be they lesbians or gay men, it feels as right as it does for straight guys when they do women and for straight girls when they do men. End of story. You can't imagine it anymore than I can imagine a man wanting a woman. Out there and liberal? Perhaps... but if this were ancient Greece, this wouldn't be an issue.
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pawsleykat
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:20 am

I wasn't kicked out of home exactly, but my father did tell me he wanted no more contact with me when I came out. That has since changed. It's not a nice experience and I feel for anyone that is kicked completely out of their homes.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Well, if we are talking about minors here, then we must examin how these children became gay. Being gay is not something you are born with, it is a learned behavior. That means someone, another minor child or perhaps even an adult, had gay sex with these children.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, and I mean no disrespect, but you have got to be the most uneducated person I have ever come across in my life. And more so, you're ignorant too. Where on earth have you been told that gay people only become gay after having sex with another gay person. That is the single most retarded thing I've heard in my entire life. It is people like you who are the problem with this world, uneducated and ignorant. Seriously, did you pay attention in school bubs? Homosexuality is not a learned behaviour, if I had the choice over being gay or straight, I'd choose heterosexuality as the discrimination and prejudice that I have been subjected to. One day I'd like to go out in the town I live in (which is still stuck somewhere between 1700 and 1967) and be referred to as "Jordan" instead of "that poofy freak or that queer"
Do you honestly think gay people choose to have that brought upon them?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Within the US, no more than 3% of the population is gay, within the entire world's population, it is less than 1%, yet in the EU, some 15% of the population openly discribe them selves as gay.

I'd really like to see where you got these statistics from, because I was under the impression that it was closer to 10% all over the world. Being completley non-sarcastic here, i'm merley asking an honest question

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UAL747
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being

Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:37 am

Quoting Pawsleykat (Reply 45):
I'd really like to see where you got these statistics from, because I was under the impression that it was closer to 10% all over the world. Being completley non-sarcastic here, i'm merley asking an honest question

Actually Pawlseykat,

The 10% statistic is based on homosexuality observed in animals and it is loosely applied to humans. Humans have the ability to hide sexuality, repress it, and conform to societies expectations. We are HIGHLY socialized creatures...not that animals aren't socialized in some basic ways, but I doubt a tiger is going to get flack from another tiger if he screws another male tiger.

We will never be able to get an even "close to accurate" percentage of homosexuals in the human population because people hide it for various reasons. Also, sexuality, as proven in this thread by Ajd1992, is really on a spectrum and we are all somewhere in between. While most of us tend to lean toward one pole or the other, it's hard to pinpoint.

However, what I find happening is that more and more people are coming out, which I think is great, and I don't feel so alone anymore. So many of my friends who I suspected were gay are finally going public about it. It's much easier in some cases today than ever before, and I hope it continues to get easier....

But as for an actual percentage, until homosexuality is allowed to be freely expressed in 100% of the worlds population, we will never have a good figure on how many people are actually gay.

UAL

PS, if you go by the statistics in the polls on here, we are about 50% gay...which brings up a very interesting question to me....the relationship between aviation and being gay. Not necessarily that part, but it makes me wonder if somehow we are wired in similar ways to like similar things. Gay people have very many similar interests, but what I find so interesting is that Aviation is a fairly "masculine" interest, yet we were all flying around our little model planes as kids....very interesting psycho-social behaviors indeed!

[Edited 2008-09-01 17:41:49]
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midcon385
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:55 am

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 23):
I'm saying that they should let them know that it's okay to be who you are from all aspects, including your sexuality.

I agree 100%!

I think it's great to see those who are comfortable with all aspects of themselves, and I refuse to discriminate. I am straight, and I do admire those of you who have found the courage to embrace yourselves as you are, despite the misunderstanding and downright hate from some people.
  

I've been seriously persecuted by people before for other reasons (differences between them and me due to my Asperger's Syndrome and other health issues), so I can't stand people who are discriminating against ANYONE for ANY reason...

Tim

[Edited 2008-09-01 18:56:35]
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:20 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Any ideas what it will mean for your average couple? Tax rights? Inheritance? immigration?

For sure. It will be the same as marriage, but without the name. Seemingly that would require constitutional change, and is a welcome opt out for the more conservative members of the government. Tax rights, inheritance, maintenance and immigration are all covered, and basically it is designed to give civil partnerships the same rights and benefits that married couples have.

For more specific information, visit the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform's website, and click on the link under the heading "General Scheme of Civil Partnership Bill". That's if you have the time, or inclination, to read all 240 pages in pdf format.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/...l_Scheme_of_Civil_Partnership_Bill

It is hoped to be in place by this time next year.
 
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:19 am



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 23):
Being a kid and being gay is scary enough without your parents throwing you out on the streets.

What don't YOU get about that DOUGLOID?

What about "My rules, my house, my chow, live by them or find another feeding station." do YOU not understand? That seems to be a simple proposition although I did not say anwhere that I thought it was a good thing.

Anyway, your rant about sexuality being determined at the moment Dad's swimmer finds his home are far from proven-despite your futile attempt to drag in religion as some sort of a whipping boy.

Seeing as you think that's so, let me ask you a couple pointed questions.

You are a determinist. You're saying it's bred in the bone so to speak. Does the term eugenics harbor any horrors for you or your community, or are you too busy partying?

Homosexuality was punishable as a crime not all that long ago in the west and it still is a hanging offense in a number of places. If it is determinist in nature as you insist, what's to stop a reversion to the eugenic principles of people like Margaret Sanger and Adolf Hitler? I mean, they were for executing retards and mental defectives-all people who were "born that way" and jews and gypsies of course who were said by the pseudosavants of Germany to have been "born that way" too.

Or are you of the opinion that there's only progress and never regression? And if you believe that how do you explain the Dark Ages? Hmmmm?

On the other hand, if sexual orientation is not a matter of determinism, then it lends some slight credence to those who say they can reform all you fellows. I know that's not a popular viewpoint, but how do you explain my cousin Ed, lived in the bay area most of his adult life, did the bathhouse bit to the max, and one day sat up in bed, said to himself "What the fuck am I doing playing russian roulette with my dick?" and gave it up, went straight, got married and has a couple kids? Do you think he wasn't a "real" gay man?

My view is simpler. We really don't know why people do what they do and screw what they screw, the evidence isn't conclusive one way or another, but thinking that it's determinist, bred in the bone, is a lot easier on the mind and provides a ready explanation not requiring much insight to a lot of questions people have.

For every complex set of problems there's always a simple answer that is invariably wrong.
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AustinAllison
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:51 am

The fact is, I don't care if you're homosexual. I could care less, but what I do care about is when you say you are just like everyone else, you aren't. You aren't normal, homosexuality is not normal, I'm not normal, no ones normal, can't you see? Everyone's different, but what you have to realize is that I believe you have a disorder, which can be backed up, as proven before.

Or maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Maybe not. You can't get all bent out of shape because someone sees it different than you. You have to be open minded. Politics and other debates turn ugly when people fail to recognize the other side. You have to accept my views, as I have to accpet yours. I am seriously not trying to be mean. I just happen to believe you have a problem, that I don't agree with. Just like I have a problem with Muslims, I, as a Christian, believe differently, but I don't call them out on their beliefs and make them look stupid, I just know what I believe and you can't change that. I still stand by most of my posts.

Please, no hard feelings.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being

Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:19 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
But there's still a big difference between being pregnant and being gay. You have to decide to have sex to be pregnant (excluding rape, which is a different case altogether and doesn't really enter into this discussion). Being gay just happens to you.

In both cases church and tradition wants to ban recreational sex, this means all sex no aimed at procreation between a married (as per church rules) couple of woman and man.
Obviously getting pregnant is, for a girl, a big sign that she had "forbidden" sex (this risk doesn't apply to gays and hetero men though).
The result is the same in those tradintional communities, for dependent teenagers, no matter if gay or hetero:
Deny your natural urges for years, until you are financially independent and able to move away.
And BTW, in Ireland with the extortionist housing prices they had there until recently (the market dropped a little after the American housing crisis), many young people are forced to live with their parents until their late 20s, because they cannot afford a place of their own.

Jan
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Gofly
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:03 am

Hello chaps,

As some of you may be aware, a number of posts have been deleted from this thread. It has taken me a considerable amount of time to remove posts for language, disrespecting other users and flamebait. These also brought with them the associated 'reference post deleted' deletions.

I could have deleted or locked the entire thread; however, I have decided to let it stay in order for the discussion to continue. I hope you appreciate the time it's taken me to handle the deletions to do this; in return, I would ask that everybody who has had deletions can reflect on them and continue to post in a more civil manner. If the same thing happens again with the thread - which was a bit like a war zone when I read it - then the entire thread will probably be deleted. Obviously, we don't wish to have to do this, so please make use of the 'suggest deletion' button should you come across any inappropriate posts - please don't respond to them.

If you wish to discuss any deletions, please do not to it in this thread; please contact moderators@airliners.net. I would also ask, in order for the thread to remain on topic, that nobody responds to this post - if you have any questions, again, please contact moderators@airliners.net.

I hope the discussion continues its course in a more civil manner.

Thanks,
-Gofly
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:07 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 19):
Either way, parents are entitled to say "Here's the rules. If you can't abide them for whatever reasons, find yourself another place for chowin' because I'm through feeding you mine."

That's actually an interesting point. I think we need to make a distinction between how someone *is* and how someone *acts*. For example, when I came out to my parents, they were clear in one point: "you're not having sex with another man in our house, period". I respected this, no questions asked. It's their house and I was supposed to *do* what they wanted when in there.

But, they could not have legally asked me to stop *being* gay. Which is different. As long as I don't *act* gay inside their house (as in "not making out with another male"), there's no tangible difference between me and my straight brother.

So yes, parents can tell their kids not to act gay inside their house, but if they *are* gay in their life (as in "fall in love with a person of the same sex"), they technically won't even know it - and even if, it wouldn't matter one bit, and it certainly wouldn't justify them to throw the kid out of the house, as (s)he didn't *do* anything wrong while at home.

Kicking someone out of the house for being gay is about the same thing as kicking him out because of his red hair... while I don't know (and don't care) if homosexuality is something you're born with or if it's behaviourally acquired, it doesn't make any difference. Once you are gay, it's not something you change from one day to another. Therefore one can reasonably assume that it's part of a person, and parents have to accept it (it's their duty to support the kids!), as long as the behaviour inside the house is according to their rules.
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kingsford
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RE: Teenagers Thrown Out Of Their Homes For Being Gay

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:15 am

Thank you all for the great posts ! Now I will silently retreat and try to think when exactly I chose to be 'abnormal'.

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