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Mortyman
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Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:26 pm

Apparently Palin was'nt the one that McCain wanted in the first place. He actually wanted Joseph Lieberman, but he was forced to chose another

New York Times:


Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/us...ref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
 
Elite
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:34 pm

People have been saying for months before Sarah Palin was picked that Joe Lieberman was going to be picked as Vice President, but many other issues also contributed to turning Lieberman away. Firstly, as you said, the conservatives were already not happy with McCain's "conservative record" and Lieberman would increase this divide. Palin, however, is strongly conservative in many issues and is a good choice. Also, many allies of McCain urged McCain to continue to follow his maverick attitude to pick a vice president that is not an expected one.

McCain did a good job in stealing some of the limelight away from the DNC and Obama by picking Palin, who appeals to conservatives, Hilary Clintons supporters, and to people who like McCain's maverick character and moving away from the status quo. In my opinion, Palin was a very good and strategic pick by McCain.

PS: Link doesn't work.
 
 
dl021
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:42 pm

Lieberman may be right on defence but his positions on economic issues and taxes would not be in line with McCains philosopies, nor with the base who's votes he needs. Lieberman has remained (in spite of the incredibly horrible way the Democrats have treated him) loyal to his beliefs and stayed liberal to the point of keeping the Senate in Democrat hands even though he could keep the same committee position if he caucused with Republicans instead.

It's the reason I respect him as much as I do. He's true to his voters and his beliefs.
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CPH-R
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:53 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 1):
McCain did a good job in stealing some of the limelight away from the DNC and Obama by picking Palin, who appeals ... (to) Hilary Clintons supporters,

Excuse me? Palin & Clinton are just about as far from each other that you can get, so why on earth would Hillary supporters suddently support Palin?

And yes, they're both women, but let's give the voters that bit more credit, shall we?  Yeah sure
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:59 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 1):
Firstly, as you said, the conservatives were already not happy with McCain's "conservative record" and Lieberman would increase this divide.

Lieberman, in spite of his split with the New Democratic Party and its militant leadership over Iraq, is still a Democrat in terms of domestic policy.

I think the NYT and others overstate Lieberman's candidacy. Sure, he was probably considered because of his experience and integrity, as well as his friendship with McCain, but I think that it was vetted out early, because half of all Republicans will have felt betrayed and stayed home in November. It's obvious.

Remember that there is still 35% of the population that give Bush good marks. These are the die-hard Republicans who have rejected all the negative propaganda of the past 8 years. They want a conservative, and consider McCain to be a liberal (or at least centrist) Republican. If they see no conservative on the Republican ticket, they will stay home, except for a few who might motivate themselves simply by not wanting an outright socialist in the White House.
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baroque
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:18 pm



Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
And yes, they're both women, but let's give the voters that bit more credit, shall we?

Are you shooting for the most generous person of the year award?
 
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:30 pm

I see the selection of Palin as both a grab for Hilary Clinton supporters who are still upset their candidate did not get the nomination, and using her position as Governor of Alaska to push hard the "drill here" campaign.

The first I see as a total waste of time if...

If Senator Clinton comes out strong and campaigns hard for Obama and Biden it will totally negate any efforts the McCain campaign is making towards her supports, all you need is Hilary Clinton to rebuff anything Palin says about her and her campaign. Hilary Clinton campaigning for Obama and mentioning Palin's views on a Woman's right to choose and other issues and it will totally take the wind out of that sail.

Second I really believe Americans have finally had it with these energy crisis, the "Drill here" campaign is not the winner the McCain camp are expecting. With Russia threatening to cut off oil to Western Europe, Hurricanes wreaking havoc year after year in the Gulf of Mexico I really and truly believe Americans are ready to embrace energy policies that will move away from more oil consumption.
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StarAC17
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:22 pm



Quoting Dl021 (Reply 3):
Lieberman may be right on defence but his positions on economic issues and taxes would not be in line with McCains philosopies, nor with the base who's votes he needs. Lieberman has remained (in spite of the incredibly horrible way the Democrats have treated him) loyal to his beliefs and stayed liberal to the point of keeping the Senate in Democrat hands even though he could keep the same committee position if he caucused with Republicans instead.

He's also pro-choice which seems to be the GOP's biggest requirement to be a presidential candidate, I mean there are so much more important things to worry about than that which IMO will not get overturned even though McCain wants it to be if he wins.
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:26 pm



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
He's also pro-choice which seems to be the GOP's biggest requirement to be a presidential candidate

I thought pro-choice is something that has actually split the GOP over the years.
 
Mir
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:32 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 1):
McCain did a good job in stealing some of the limelight away from the DNC and Obama by picking Palin, who appeals to conservatives, Hilary Clintons supporters, and to people who like McCain's maverick character and moving away from the status quo.

Palin will not appeal to Clinton supporters. All Hillary has to do is get up and say "yes, she's a woman, but that's where the similarities between us end - if you want a candidate who will fight for women, vote for Obama."

-Mir
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Dreadnought
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:14 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
I thought pro-choice is something that has actually split the GOP over the years.

You are somewhat correct. I am a pro-choice conservative, but feel that the abortion issue is pretty far down the list of national priorities. Some people feel very differently, on both sides of the issue. If someone votes for Obama just because he is pro-choice, or for McCain just because he is pro-life, is a pretty poor set of priorities.
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PSA727
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:07 pm

Lieberman for McCain's V.P. was a pipe dream. However, do not rule out the possibilty
of him being in McCain's Cabinet. (Sec. of State perhaps).

People need to differentiate between people who voted for Hillary Clinton and Hillary Clinton
supporters. Hillary Clinton supporters wanted Hillary, herself, to be President and not
necessarily any woman to be President. Moreover, electing Hillary and making her the first
woman to be President was too intoxicating for them. Hence the PUMAs.

Now how pissed do you think these women are today with that prospect rapidly dwindling?
Because it wouldn't be Hillary breaking that final glass ceiling if McCain wins.

Sarah Palen was chosen because 1) McCain sees his same spirit in her philosophy
2) She really energizes the base in a way he will never be able to and 3) It will really
further irritate the Hillary Die-Hards who are upset with Obama for not choosing her.

PUMAS UNITED WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED! JOIN THE SISTERHOOD!
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Superfly
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:53 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
I see the selection of Palin as both a grab for Hilary Clinton supporters who are still upset their candidate did not get the nomination,

Not true and if so, John McCain and his people are seriously delusional.
Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton share NOTHING in common in terms of political views. I can't think of two more polar opposite candidates.

Quoting Dl021 (Reply 3):
(in spite of the incredibly horrible way the Democrats have treated him) loyal to his beliefs and stayed liberal to the point of keeping the Senate in Democrat hands

It's the reason I respect him as much as I do. He's true to his voters and his beliefs.

Dl021 my friend, please give it a rest.
Do you have the same amount of respect for the 30+ other Democratic Senators that share the same exact beliefs and principals of Lieberman? As I've said before, the current script he Christian conservatives are saying is to talk up and praise Joe Lieberman and pretend to love the Orthodox Jews. In private, they hate him and Orthodox Jews because of what their Bible dictates. That is the real reason why the conservatives were against McCain picking Joe Lieberman.

Then again, if Sarah Paulin get's pregnant again between now and election day, McCain may pick Joe Lieberman after all.  duck 

[Edited 2008-09-01 14:55:20]
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WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
all the negative propaganda of the past 8 years.

Hmm... From which side? About which topic? Are you talking about when all the media jumped on the "let's invade a country that has nothing to do with terrorism and is no threat to anyone but its own dictatorial regime" bandwagon back in '02/'03?  Smile

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
With Russia threatening to cut off oil to Western Europe, Hurricanes wreaking havoc year after year in the Gulf of Mexico I really and truly believe Americans are ready to embrace energy policies that will move away from more oil consumption.

May you be right, my friend, for our common Western energy policies are very much dependent on your countrymen's embrace of energy responsibility...  pray 

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
He's also pro-choice which seems to be the GOP's biggest requirement to be a presidential candidate,

You mean to not be a GOP's presidential candidate...  Wink

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
If someone votes for Obama just because he is pro-choice, or for McCain just because he is pro-life, is a pretty poor set of priorities.

I agree with your statement wholeheartedly.  Smile
 
lowrider
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:08 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
As I've said before, the current script he Christian conservatives are saying is to talk up and praise Joe Lieberman and pretend to love the Orthodox Jews. In private, they hate him and Orthodox Jews because of what their Bible dictates.

Painting with a bit of a broad brush here, aren't we? Why is it so hard to believe that even conservative Christians can respect a person even if they disagree with some of their opinions and positions? I would think that is the sort of attitude you would applaud. I would expect this rhetoric from some hopeless demagogue, but not you. For what it is worth, none of the translations of the Bible I have read say that I should, "hate the Jews", or anyone else for that matter. Not even liberals.
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WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Why is it so hard to believe that even conservative Christians can respect a person even if they disagree with some of their opinions and positions?

I definitely agree with you on the principles you state.

Now for this part:

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
For what it is worth, none of the translations of the Bible I have read say that I should, "hate the Jews", or anyone else for that matter. Not even liberals.

I also agree but I find it quite contradictory that someone (not you, I am trying to talk in broad terms) would claim not to hate anyone yet support death penalty. Again, I am not saying that all conservatives (Christian or not) are pro capital punishment but it is true that it gets fairly high approval ratings among right wing and conservative religious groups.

Wouldn't the killing of someone who is behind bars be quite a display of hatred?

I am not being malicious or picky, but just feeding off your statement regarding using the Bible as justification for violence and hatred.

 Smile
 
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:42 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16):
Wouldn't the killing of someone who is behind bars be quite a display of hatred?

Not necessarily. The death penalty is not and should never be about feeling satisfied over the outcome. No more than any other sentence or punishment should be. There is considerable disagreement among Christians about the applicability of the death penalty. On the one hand, there is the element of justice and protection to consider. Every time a release criminal re-offends, it is a failure on our part. It is particularly onerous if it is a violent or fatal crime, and the question spectre of our unwillingness to apply capital punishment hangs in the background. On the other, any person in their right mind is loath to shed innocent blood. This is certainly condemned in the Bible. Given the imperfect nature of our criminal justice system, this is almost unavoidable. The death penalty was widely applied in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, but there were also limits set on when it could be used and the standard of evidence required to use it.

All this to say, over the years I have become less certain of my position on the death penalty. The US Constitution provides for it, and I think there is room for discussion as to how to handle this power. I would like to see a way it could be applied in a foolproof manner, and that is the only way it should be applied. I am unsure of what that manner looks like.
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Elite
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:58 am



Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
And yes, they're both women, but let's give the voters that bit more credit, shall we?



Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
Palin will not appeal to Clinton supporters

There have been numerous reports of independent voters voting for McCain because of Sarah Palin, and Clinton supporters now also supporting McCain because Palin is a women. It is a fact, not about giving voters more credit. People will vote for Obama because he is black - unfortunate, but it will happen, just like how people will vote for Palin because she is a women.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:59 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
The death penalty is not and should never be about feeling satisfied over the outcome. No more than any other sentence or punishment should be.

 checkmark  Agreed 100%.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
On the one hand, there is the element of justice and protection to consider. Every time a release criminal re-offends, it is a failure on our part. It is particularly onerous if it is a violent or fatal crime, and the question spectre of our unwillingness to apply capital punishment hangs in the background.

Reform of judicial system could help in this respect - notably the notion of "life" sentence, which should mean "no exit, ever". If you get life, then you die in prison, as paradoxical as the phrasing looks.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
On the other, any person in their right mind is loath to shed innocent blood. This is certainly condemned in the Bible.

And this is where it gets tricky. It is "Thou shalt not kill", not "Thou shalt not kill innocents". Shedding blood is condemned regardless of the value of the human being whose blood is shed.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
The death penalty was widely applied in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, but there were also limits set on when it could be used and the standard of evidence required to use it.

See above and the never-ending debate can continue...  Smile

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
I would like to see a way it could be applied in a foolproof manner, and that is the only way it should be applied. I am unsure of what that manner looks like.

The only way to come up with a foolproof system is for mankind to not fail. And that is inherently impossible. Which is what makes me think that applying capital punishment is a way for us to play God. I consider myself an agnostic in its most open definition of the term (which implies the deepest respect for anything religious) but even I can see a problem with playing God...

In all good spirit and I certainly don't mean to divert the Elections' debate from its righteous course of discussing the amount of money spent by Cindy McCain on her latest outfit or Sarah Palin's daughter or any other Earth-shattering issues raised in recent days by both Parties...

 biggrin 

More seriously I thank you personally for taking the time and class to debate this most sensitive of subjects in a calm, respectful and constructive way. It is sufficiently rare to be noted.  Smile
 
lowrider
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:13 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 19):
"Thou shalt not kill", not "Thou shalt not kill innocents".

Actually it is "Thou shalt not murder", and I think that is consistent with the other prohibitions against killing the innocent.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 19):
The only way to come up with a foolproof system is for mankind to not fail. And that is inherently impossible.

And therein lies my problem. Now in certain cases, I think we (humans) could get it right. If 50 people and 5 security cameras witness one person killing another in a completely unprovoked attack, it is possible that we could safely convict and sentence that person to death. The problem is when we try and make it fit the more common, less clear cases.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 19):
See above and the never-ending debate can continue...

Whew, because if we solved all of these what would we talk about here?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 19):
More seriously I thank you personally

Thanks. And to you, likewise.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled campaign pettiness.
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AirportSeven
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:20 am

Do you really want a President who can't even stand up to the Republican National Convention to get the Vice President that he wants? How can we rely on somebody to face the terrorists when they won't even face Mike Duncan?
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:33 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 20):
Actually it is "Thou shalt not murder", and I think that is consistent with the other prohibitions against killing the innocent.

Duh. I missed that one. I guess it only brings more food for thought to the debate. Now how do you make a never-ending debate even longer-lasting, hey?  Wink

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 20):
Whew, because if we solved all of these what would we talk about here?

Barack and Michelle Obama's fist tap/terrorist call? J-Lo's bum? You know, some life-changing, History-altering subjects...  silly 

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 20):
We now return you to your regularly scheduled campaign pettiness.

Mate, I live halfway across the world and even I am sick of it all already. My heart goes out to you for the stretch run of the next three months... If the past 12 months have been any indication of the kind of brain-beating, basement-level bickering that you'll be treated to in the next few weeks, I strongly suggest you return your TV to a pawn shop and stop reading the "politics" pages of newspapers...

 Smile
 
lowrider
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:42 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 22):
I strongly suggest you return your TV to a pawn shop and stop reading the "politics" pages of newspapers...

Thanks. We actually decided to take a year off of TV starting in June. All of the election nonsense helped in the decision. With decent newspapers and the net, I really don't think I am missing much.
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WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:55 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
Thanks. We actually decided to take a year off of TV starting in June. All of the election nonsense helped in the decision. With decent newspapers and the net, I really don't think I am missing much.

Join the club. The only downside to not watching TV that I get to experience in my everyday life is that I am cut off from a fair bit of conversation with my social network. Simply because when they talk about TV shows and people, I just don't have a clue. And one can only blather on about airplanes for so long without everyone around getting bored very quickly...  silly 

Other than that, I'm sure it's a nice end-of-summer season in the US so grab a good book and newspaper and go enjoy a nice 'cino outside!!  Smile
 
lowrider
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:01 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 24):
I'm sure it's a nice end-of-summer

It is, and should you find your self in Minnesota, drop me a line. Hopefully I will be on days off.
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alfa75
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:09 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
I am a pro-choice conservative, but feel that the abortion issue is pretty far down the list of national priorities.

You get a gold star. Thanks for your common sense approach to your politics.

We have way more important things to be worrying about than that issue.
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Superfly
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:02 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
For what it is worth, none of the translations of the Bible I have read say that I should, "hate the Jews"

I guess you never finished reading these various versions of the Bible.  Yeah sure
It specifically states that when JAY-ZUS returns, non believers (that includes Jews) must convert or burn in hell.
Not sure if you want to turn this in to a religious thread but there you have it.
Besides, this thread is about Conservatives pushing McCain against his will in selecting a vice Presidential pick. Were you involved in the selection process Lowrider?
Sarah Palin was not McCain's 1st. choice.
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WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:09 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
I guess you never finished reading these various versions of the Bible. Yeah sure
It specifically states that when JAY-ZUS returns, non believers (that includes Jews) must convert or burn in hell.
Not sure if you want to turn this in to a religious thread but there you have it.

Then blame me for bringing it up, not him. And I think he has been quite discerning in his phrasing and we all agree that ancient scriptures (check that, what we are told today are ancient scriptures) contain very loosely worded, and sometimes clear statements of violence.

The debate was centred on death penalty, but if you wish to change it to a debate on the relevance of literal understanding of the Bible, knock yourself off mate.  Smile
 
Superfly
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:13 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 28):
The debate was centred on death penalty, but if you wish to change it to a debate on the relevance of literal understanding of the Bible, knock yourself off mate.

That is the last thing I want to discuss. I could really careless what these crazy Bible thumpers believe, nor do I care about kiss a$$ Lieberman.
Bring back the Concorde
 
baroque
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:18 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
The US Constitution provides for it, and I think there is room for discussion as to how to handle this power. I would like to see a way it could be applied in a foolproof manner, and that is the only way it should be applied. I am unsure of what that manner looks like.

Then again, the US Constitution provides for attacking Russia - I presume - and that is really not a good idea - either.

The manner looks like not applying the penalty.

Have you ever seen the film:

"Nous sommes tous des assassins"

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/1161...Sommes-Tous-des-Assassins/overview

At the risk of the ire of Wunala (cos he actually speaks French), it means we are all murderers, although I prefer we are all assassins.

I have to wonder how many Iraqis we have created similar to the person who forgot to stop killing when the Germans left Paris. Nice little contribution from the coalition of the willing (NOT).
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:22 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
At the risk of the ire of Wunala (cos he actually speaks French), it means we are all murderers, although I prefer we are all assassins.

Ire? Why? I don't expect anyone to speak French and am most honoured when someone tries!  Smile

If you're looking for the arrogant, anal-retentive "French is the language of the Gods" type, you have the wrong Frog, sir!!  biggrin 

And your translation is absolutely correct!!
 
kalakaua
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:56 am

If Palin doesn't appeal to some HRC supporters, I believe Cindy McCain does...

http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=25419
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
baroque
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:18 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 31):
And your translation is absolutely correct!!

Bloody miracle is all I can say.

I am just appalled at how the abilities associated with being able to pass exams in the language and wander around France chatting reasonably effectively have nearly totally vanished. So I am very tentative about anything in a language in which I was once fairly fluent. In 1970, I had the experience of understanding everything that was said to me, and being totally unable to think of a reply in French. Now even most of the understanding has gone. I did not assume Frog arrogance (although I secretly rather like it) just my own, similar word, ignorance!

Getting back to the film, it is very powerful. If you watch the first part, you can see how his later actions could follow. Hard to condemn someone with that history.

You have to wonder how many folk in the US (and Aus, I am sure we are not immune) who have been deranged by the past 7 years will end up committing crimes that horrify. Is anyone interested out there?
 
jm017
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:21 pm



Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
Excuse me? Palin & Clinton are just about as far from each other that you can get, so why on earth would Hillary supporters suddently support Palin?

And yes, they're both women, but let's give the voters that bit more credit, shall we?

Unfortunately, some voters are not so sophisticated. For many, the fact that Palin was chosen is enough to secure their vote, no matter her stance on the positions. Same with Obama. People will vote for or against him based solely on race.

Quoting Elite (Reply 18):
There have been numerous reports of independent voters voting for McCain because of Sarah Palin, and Clinton supporters now also supporting McCain because Palin is a women. It is a fact, not about giving voters more credit. People will vote for Obama because he is black - unfortunate, but it will happen, just like how people will vote for Palin because she is a women.

Exactly. It really should be about the issues. Obama's race and Palin's gender are secondary. Interesting but secondary.

Quoting AirportSeven (Reply 21):
Do you really want a President who can't even stand up to the Republican National Convention to get the Vice President that he wants? How can we rely on somebody to face the terrorists when they won't even face Mike Duncan?

This is the first someone has voiced this point. An excellent point.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
You are somewhat correct. I am a pro-choice conservative, but feel that the abortion issue is pretty far down the list of national priorities. Some people feel very differently, on both sides of the issue. If someone votes for Obama just because he is pro-choice, or for McCain just because he is pro-life, is a pretty poor set of priorities.

These are the same people who will complain loudly when their pro-choice or pro-life candidate takes the country in what they perceive to be the wrong direction. These people express different priorities half-way through a president's term.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
lowrider
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:25 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
Were you involved in the selection process Lowrider?
Sarah Palin was not McCain's 1st. choice.

Nope. McCain was not my first choice either, but he is one of the options I am left with after the vetting process. I don't think Palin was a bad choice, and a wise leader realizes that he must not only listen to his advisers, but that sometimes they will be right or have better ideas. That is why you have them as advisers in the first place.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
It specifically states that when JAY-ZUS returns, non believers (that includes Jews) must convert or burn in hell.

I am fine with leaving the disposition of your soul between you and your Maker. If you want to revisit the topic with a mortal sometime, I'll be here.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
Not sure if you want to turn this in to a religious thread but there you have it.

Guess you shouldn't have brought it up then.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
Have you ever seen the film:
"Nous sommes tous des assassins

Can't say I have, hopefully it is available subtitled. The concept is familiar to me, though. As I have said, I am going to punt on the Death Penalty issue and say I am not decided at this point. It may not be a satisfying answer, but it is an honest one. I used to be of the "kill 'em all and let God sort them out", but have come to appreciate the errors of thinking. As to how many murderers we may have created, I would hope that the US has learned over the years that we need to help soldiers make the transition back to peacetime life. Even if we have, I wonder how effective we are at doing so.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:04 pm



Quoting JM017 (Reply 34):
Quoting AirportSeven (Reply 21):
Do you really want a President who can't even stand up to the Republican National Convention to get the Vice President that he wants? How can we rely on somebody to face the terrorists when they won't even face Mike Duncan?

This is the first someone has voiced this point. An excellent point.

No it isn't. First of all, you are assuming that McCain is dumb enough to believe that he could motivate enugh voters to win the election if he chose someone like Liebermann. He's no dummy. Secondly, you appear to be advocating that a president should not listen to his advisors and staff.

The decision at the end was his, and a lot of people were worried last weekend. I heard some Republicans moan about how McCain would probably be forced to dump her after a week or two. Now, she's faced the worst smears the media could sling at her, and basicaly responded, "bring it on, m&**er-f*&%ers". She dealt with a disaster during the most important speech of her life that would have turned Obama into a blithering idiot when her teleprompters went haywire, so smoothly that nobody noticed she was in trouble. The few interviews she has given, like on CNBC, (there will be a lot more soon), shows her to be quick and informed.

Now I am hearing about Obama perhaps dumping Biden. Anyone would have to admit it was a particularly uninspiring choice for him.

Anyway, 2 more months and this is over. Thank God.
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baroque
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
Can't say I have, hopefully it is available subtitled. The concept is familiar to me, though. As I have said, I am going to punt on the Death Penalty issue and say I am not decided at this point. It may not be a satisfying answer, but it is an honest one....... Even if we have, I wonder how effective we are at doing so.

Well I suppose it was subtitled back in the 50s so I guess so, but now you come to mention it some French films I watched in those days were not. Now you make me depressed about the deterioration in my French all over again!!

The film has two main aspects, one the training to kill and the disorientation when peace came. That is the issue I was seeking to draw attention to here. The other issue was the barbarity of Madame La G and the methods used at that time in France. Impressive at that time and no doubt a factor in the eventual French decision to pension Madame La G.

I too wonder how effective we are. There is no doubt that WWI (and WWII) destroyed as many or more men as it killed. My own father had his faults, but to be at all human after 3 years in the trenches (1915 to 1918) latterly as a company commander (if you know what that meant in WWII) was a bloody miracle.

It might be noted that the UK has apologised to 304 men shot in WWI
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...r-men-shot-in-ww1-115875-17272181/
(Sorry to use a Mirror reference!!)

That is an extreme perhaps, but a useful illustration of how wrong the state can be.

I guarantee that (unless the US state breaks down entirely which is rather unlikely) the US will come in a decade or two to view the death penalty the way that we do here now.
 
lowrider
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 37):
I guarantee that (unless the US state breaks down entirely which is rather unlikely) the US will come in a decade or two to view the death penalty the way that we do here now.

I would like to see the death penalty fall out of favor not only from public sentiment, but also that it is so infrequently needed that it is not worth keeping the apparatus around. However, I don't share your optimism. But that is another thread entirely...

I will let you know if I find a subtitled version of the movie, if you are interested.
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PSA727
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:49 pm



Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 32):
If Palin doesn't appeal to some HRC supporters, I believe Cindy McCain does...

http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/d...25419

I read most of these posts and felt good about them. But what surprised me was that
no one mentioned that while Cindy McCain has done enormous charity work and gave
Bridget a home, survival, and opportunities, Barack Obama's half-brother lives in squalor.
Obama talks the talk, but the McCain's walk the walk.
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:25 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
As I have said, I am going to punt on the Death Penalty issue and say I am not decided at this point. It may not be a satisfying answer, but it is an honest one. I used to be of the "kill 'em all and let God sort them out", but have come to appreciate the errors of thinking.

I think your answer is full of humility and intelligence, two very important qualities in my view. In my book there is nothing "unsatisfying" about stating that one does not know or does not have sufficient information to make an educated decision. It is the sign of maturity and honesty.

I commend you on your wisdom.

 Smile
 
RJdxer
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:00 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
With Russia threatening to cut off oil to Western Europe, Hurricanes wreaking havoc year after year in the Gulf of Mexico I really and truly believe Americans are ready to embrace energy policies that will move away from more oil consumption.

Dream on. Until those policies can produce energy for a consistently lower price than oil they will remain on the fringe.

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
All Hillary has to do is get up and say "yes, she's a woman, but that's where the similarities between us end - if you want a candidate who will fight for women, vote for Obama."

Already has.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=7939
Oberfurher read it on MSNBC again the night Governor Palin gave her acceptance speech.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 12):
, do not rule out the possibilty
of him being in McCain's Cabinet. (Sec. of State perhaps).

I would rather he remain in the Senate as a voice for fiscal sensibility.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
Sarah Palin was not McCain's 1st. choice

I'm glad we had someone in the room when the decision was made.

The NYT would like everyone to think that Lieberman was his first choice since that was their first choice. I think the decision was a whole lot more murkier than that. Senator McCain himself kept saying he had not made a choice up until about a week before he announce Governor Palin. I think he was waiting to see what Senator Obama did so he could make the correct counter move. He may have had several people in mind for the job but I don't think he narrowed it down until the DNC convention. Smart move on his part.
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Superfly
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
Guess you shouldn't have brought it up then.

Read reply #28.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
I am fine with leaving the disposition of your soul between you and your Maker.

That is just too funny! Big grin

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 41):
I'm glad we had someone in the room when the decision was made.

You welcome. I was a fly on the wall.  Smile
Seriously though, despite the icy relation between Romney and McCain he would have chose him to be VP. The corporate conservatives love him. The religious conservatives don't want him. Same for Joe Lieberman.
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RJdxer
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:29 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
despite the icy relation between Romney and McCain he would have chose him to be VP. The corporate conservatives love him. The religious conservatives don't want him. Same for Joe Lieberman.

I don't think McCain wanted either of them. I don't think he trusts Romney, as you say they don't really get along, and I think Lieberman was a ploy to really catch the Obama team off guard and it worked perfectly. I think the decision was down to three Governors, Palin, Jindal, and Pawlenty. In that I think Jindal was probably his first choice but Jindal turned him down due to the public commitments he made to his citizens. Palin was second choice and Pawlenty third. He needed someone with current chief executive experience to take that off the table.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
jm017
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:37 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
No it isn't. First of all, you are assuming that McCain is dumb enough to believe that he could motivate enugh voters to win the election if he chose someone like Liebermann. He's no dummy. Secondly, you appear to be advocating that a president should not listen to his advisors and staff.

I am assuming no such thing. Nor am I advocating what you state.

McCain probably realised that he would be shooting himself in the foot had he chosen Lieberman. What I said was that it was the first time someone had raised the point about McCain caving to the GOP, not his immediate advisors. I think McCain the "maverick" would have preferred someone else, but ever the pragmatist (or opportunist), he made calculated choice. And there had to have been pressure from the GOP (something like "you will lose if you choose Lieberman"). And, yes that pressure influenced his choice or, if you like, the options presented to him.

What I EXPECTED was his advisors to suggest someone with strong(er) conservative credentials in order to shore up the more conservative elements of his party and to improve his standing with his party. I EXPECTED McCain to follow this advice. But the final decision obviously was his.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:42 am



Quoting JM017 (Reply 44):
I think McCain the "maverick" would have preferred someone else, but ever the pragmatist (or opportunist), he made calculated choice.

I disagree. Picking Palin was the most "mavericky" (will that become a word?) move of his entire campaign. I think he believed that here is a chance for him to shake things up by picking somebody out of left field. To pirate the old Oldsmobile commercials, he wanted to send a signal that "this is not your father's Republican Party".

It was a risky choice. But I think he'll be proven right.
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Superfly
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:21 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 43):
I think Lieberman was a ploy to really catch the Obama team off guard and it worked perfectly.

We wont know that until November.
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jm017
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:09 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 45):
I disagree. Picking Palin was the most "mavericky" (will that become a word?) move of his entire campaign.

Maybe you're right. She is hardly a safe bet. I figured he would choose someone with conservative creds. A "safe" bet. There are quite a few female and male conservatives who could have done nicely. That wouldn't be a gutsy call. But the choice....yeah that's was gutsy.

(speaking of "change," I was sick of hearing Obama use the word. Now McCain is using it too...just shoot me now)
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
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RE: Conservative Ire Pushed McCain From Lieberman

Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:01 pm



Quoting JM017 (Reply 47):
(speaking of "change," I was sick of hearing Obama use the word. Now McCain is using it too...just shoot me now)

I have to agree. As Palin said the other day, there is good change and bad change (climate change, anyone?) Socialism is not good change.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.

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