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Mortyman
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Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:11 pm

Secret killing program is key in Iraq, Woodward says


Story Highlights

* Program likened to WWII-era Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bomb

* Author discloses the existence of secret operational capabilities in latest book

* National security advisor disputes Woodward's conclusion about the Iraq surge


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/me...secret/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:20 pm

OOOOHHH a "Secret Killing Program" OOOOHHHH

Could the program have been like this?:

1. Increase the number of troops.

2. Use intelligence operatives to determine where the terrorists and insurgents are.

3. Concentrate the troops where the terrorists and insurgents are.

4. Kill the terrorists and insurgents.

Some Secret!!

The Mahattan Project analogy is just silly.

Bob Woodward is just an attention whore.
 
AGM100
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:04 pm

Damn sounds good to me ! Their may be something too this , one of my bothers friends (Army sniper) was sent to Quantico (pre surge) to train with some special units (FBI/CIA/Whoever) he told him that it was some "new program" .

Guess it worked .... good job to all the people who took part. Outstanding!.
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Mortyman
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:06 pm

I doubt it's the way you have layed it out DLPMMM


The way you have described it is basically the same way it has been done in Afghanistan from day one by both American and allied forces.



I think it's different this time. I think the Whitehouse would have commented a bit more openly if it is such a simple " normal " operation as you put it.


But that is my opinion.
 
redflyer
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:33 pm

Who cares whether it was snipers or the addition of more troops that worked? In the end, regardless of which option it was, it seems to be working. Personally, I hope it was the sniper option. Nothing - NOTHING - instills fear in a combatant more than getting whacked silently and without advance warning. Besides, the sniper option is much more cleaner and less costly in lives and treasure.
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Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:19 pm

Three possibilities


1.) I have heard of bug-shaped very small drones. Perhaps those could have some kind of device to locate terrorists, allowing them to be tracked, or assassinated using a poison "stinger".

2.) Or maybe figured out some kind of device that can "scan the minds" of enemies (Hey, there was an article called "The future of war could be fought with mind drugs" or something like that which did discuss this), sounds crazy, but who knows.

3.) There really isn't any new strategy or technology -- just a claim there is in order to psych the enemy out.


The fact that there is so much secrecy around this thing makes sense, however I am somewhat worried that if this is some kind of new "secret program", that it could eventually be used on the civilian population after this. The government would overnight become more dangerous than the terrorists we're fighting.


Blackbird
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Dreadnought
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 5):
1.) I have heard of bug-shaped very small drones. Perhaps those could have some kind of device to locate terrorists, allowing them to be tracked, or assassinated using a poison "stinger".

I've seen them tested. But their ability to carry a useful load (explosive charge, etc) is extremely limited and it's so light that the slightest breeze can send it crashing into walls, damaging delicate instrumentation and controls. These are not ready for prime-time yet.

There are larger versions (about 4 feet high, 3 feet across and fly around or hover under a pair of counter-rotating props), and these have been deployed since last year in Iraq, from what I've heard.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 5):
2.) Or maybe figured out some kind of device that can "scan the minds" of enemies (Hey, there was an article called "The future of war could be fought with mind drugs" or something like that which did discuss this), sounds crazy, but who knows.

If we actually had this, we could say "screw all this", let the Arabs kill each other, retire to our own countries and deploy this "mind-reading" equipment at our borders. Anyone coming in with the intent to commit a crime, we arrest.

But we don't.
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Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Ira

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:00 pm

Dreadnought

It doesn't have to carry a useful charge, just a really really potent poison. That's all that is required of it. It doesn't have to blow people up.

As for the mind-reading technology... a lot of technology has roots in military programs, then graduates to civilian use. For all I know if this technology does exist and is being used in war, you can guess it will eventually be used for civilian use eventually in law-enforcement. This is definetly horrifying and if true is very disturbing as it would cause all privacy and freedom as we know it to cease to exist forever.


Blackbird

[Edited 2008-09-09 15:01:35]

[Edited 2008-09-09 15:03:02]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:09 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 7):
As for the mind-reading technology... a lot of technology has roots in military programs, then graduates to civilian use.

Once again, if we had such technology, we would not be having all the problems we are having today. You can put away the tinfoil hat.
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mham001
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:11 pm

Actually the "killing program" is hyperbole. Woodward does not say that. Most likely it is new techniques rather than new weapons.

Lots of computational modeling and behavioral study.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/4424

http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=110040&org=NSF
 
Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:37 am

Mham001,

Question 1: Are the computer simulations used in the behavior modeling actually sentient (like a real human, actually conscious and all that)?

Question 2: Do you think this technology will eventually be used by our government for law-enforcement work to stop people from committing crimes before they do, and taking care of political dissidents (not terrorists, just dissidents), some of which have legitimate claims?


Blackbird
 
johns624
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:15 am

Did you hear about this new thing called the "Internet"? It was invented by this Senator from Tennessee called Al Gore. It can connect all the computers in the world. The government can spy on anything you've looked at or written. It's like 1984. Anything you write can never truly be erased. It's scary- the government will know your every thought and will be able to control you.
Signed: Blackbird circa 1979, via snail mail...  Smile

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RJdxer
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:58 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10):
Question 2: Do you think this technology will eventually be used by our government for law-enforcement work to stop people from committing crimes before they do, and taking care of political dissidents (not terrorists, just dissidents), some of which have legitimate claims?

Someone just rented the movie Minority Report.
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Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:04 am

RJdxer,

It is a good question, as this technology could allow such things to happen.


Blackbird
 
David L
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:28 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 5):
The fact that there is so much secrecy around this thing makes sense,

You mean the same "secrecy" surrounding the fact that the US government is controlled by aliens from another dimension? This "secrecy proves it exists" BS is what makes conspiracy theorists so laughable. Anyone with half a mind sees it as an admission that there's no evidence.
 
johns624
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:22 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 14):
Anyone with half a mind.

Ahhh... I think I see the problem here... Smile
 
David L
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Ira

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:32 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 15):
Ahhh... I think I see the problem here...  Smile

I should have been more specific. Anything from half a mind to a full mind is good. More than one mind, however, takes you back over to the Dark Side.  Smile
 
Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:45 pm

David L,

Quote:
You mean the same "secrecy" surrounding the fact that the US government is controlled by aliens from another dimension?

What are you smoking. I never said anything about Aliens.

I was simply saying that the two links that Mham01 posted seem to be the most likely explanation for Mr. Woodward's claims. I then asked if such technology could end up being used on the civilian population to screen out dissidents, which is a legitimate speculation since our government after all has engaged in wireless wiretapping and would obviously love to be able to stop criminals before they're act -- even despite that this is against the Constitution and First Amendment (Which require probable cause first).


Blackbird
 
David L
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Ira

Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:59 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 17):
What are you smoking. I never said anything about Aliens.

Oh dear! Was that really so far over your head? Did the rest of the post not make it any clearer?  biggrin 
 
AGM100
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Killing Program 101


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L410Turbolet
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:36 pm

Whatever the truth is, the fact is a.net would be half the fun without Blackbird.  alert 

 
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:53 pm

It is a satellite based system that launches a kinetic weapon and uses gravity for its acceleration. It is triggered by an identified voice over phone connection. The target is identified, triangulated, and the satellite, via a simple rail gun, launches a kinetic device that guides itself based on satellite telemetry first, then ground originating data. It has an accuracy of 10cm which is perfect for a human sized target, due to its ultimate impact velocity it can penetrate any normal structure, even though multiple floors. Either the impactor or accelerated debris kills the target. The entire operation takes approximately 3 minutes.

Tinfoil hats do not offer protection.

Tugg
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johns624
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:42 am

Blackbird, go sit on the Group W bench...NOW!!!  Wink
 
Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:38 pm

Tugger,

Is that actually true?


Blackbird
 
drewfly
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:47 pm

IMO there are two possibilities here:

A. Psyops at its finest. Someone is feeding this info to Woodward, but why? I remember during the first Gulf War listening to the radio and hearing about some type of military drone that could stay aloft for 24 hours, survey huge amounts of territory and report its findings back in real time (turned out to be the Predator). Why report this? To scare the crap out of the other guy.

B. The military has made a huge leap in its ability to tag, track, and locate people over long distances without them being aware. Technology like the ability to read thermal fingerprints from long range and building nano-size listening/tracking devices powered by, say, ambient energy rather than a battery.

I am going to go for B, with a healthy dose of A for good measure. Back in 2004 the Defense Science Board wrote up a report that said:

Quote:
The global war on terrorism cannot be won without a ‘Manhattan Project’-like TTL [tagging, tracking, and locating] program....

This tagging and tracking could be used for:

• People or groups such as enemy leaders or sympathizers, nuclear weapons or explosives experts, and terrorist paymasters.

• Things such as weapons of mass destruction, materials or components, precision machinery, pharmaceutical plants, specialized instruments, pathogens and seed stocks or vehicles.

• Activities such as recruiting, financial transactions, Internet activity, pathogen genome sequencing or organizational activity or meeting.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001148.html

I'm guessing the program in question is simply the operational genesis of this effort.

[Edited 2008-09-11 17:00:49]

[Edited 2008-09-11 17:01:42]

[Edited 2008-09-11 17:02:14]
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 21):
It has an accuracy of 10cm which is perfect for a human sized target, due to its ultimate impact velocity it can penetrate any normal structure, even though multiple floors. Either the impactor or accelerated debris kills the target. The entire operation takes approximately 3 minutes.



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 23):
Is that actually true?

Yep. In fact the Tungsten projectile comes down so fast that at impact it explodes like a good-sized bomb.

We tested it on the Murray bulding in Oklahoma.
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Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:25 am

Drewfly,

What exactly is a thermal fingerprint? You mean the heat emissions a persion puts out right?

Have they actually started building nano-sized listening and tracking devices that could be powered by ambient energy?


If I read this URL right: http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001148.html -- track everything that moves, any and all; this is just absolutely horrifying -- our government would become more dangerous to it's own people than the terrorists it was meant to protect itself from (and I'm not using hyperbole here). You think we have little freedom now, we ain't seen nothin' yet.


Blackbird
 
drewfly
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:21 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 26):

Here's a Powerpoint from SOCOM about all this.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/files/Richardson_Continuous.pdf
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Flighty
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Ira

Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:50 pm

Oh great, so basically the entire plot of Terminator 2: Judgment Day is real. Wonderful...

"John Connor, target aquired..."

And to think, in the year ~1780 an insurgent army led by George Washington was able to overthrow the most powerful army in the world! In today's asymmetric world I guess that can't happen ever again, can it....  


((USA))

[Edited 2008-09-13 12:50:42]
 
Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Ira

Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:12 am

Flighty,

See that's kind of the problem: If this country (Or even a future One World Government -- there are a lot of people who want to see it happen) ever becomes a tyrannical totalitarian dictatorship there will be *NO WAY* for it to be stopped and it will Never EVER end...


Blackbird
 
johns624
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 29):
One World Government

Somehow, I don't see the Russians or Chinese going along with this...
 
Blackbird
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:07 pm

Johns624,

For those who want a one world government: Who ever said consent was part of the equation?


Blackbird
 
johns624
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 31):
For those who want a one world government: Who ever said consent was part of the equation?

So we can barely control Iraq and we're going to bully the Chinese and Russians?
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:59 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 26):
If I read this URL right: http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001148.html -- track everything that moves, any and all; this is just absolutely horrifying -- our government would become more dangerous to it's own people than the terrorists it was meant to protect itself from (and I'm not using hyperbole here). You think we have little freedom now, we ain't seen nothin' yet.


Blackbird

You obviously don't have any technical background, nor experience in working with the DoD.

There is already more advanced recognition software in civilian hands in every major casino in Las Vegas and Atlantic City than any software the military has.

Go back to your room and make sure the towel blocks the space under your door.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:46 am



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 33):
There is already more advanced recognition software in civilian hands in every major casino in Las Vegas and Atlantic City than any software the military has.

i highly doubt that the military is actually going to admit to what it actually has capability wise. look at the stealth bomber, it was flying around Area 51 since what the early 1980s? and the air force finally came clean about it publicly in the 90s? when it was used for the first time in the Gulf War. likewise with the SR-71 replacement, we know something has taken over the role of the SR-71, but will the military admit to it? not until they've perfected it's replacement, which again will be kept secret for decades. the military will always believe it's in the interest of national security to keep the American Public, world media, and by proxy our adversaries, ten paces out of step with what's actually going on visavis new military technology. the truth is, we have no idea what they have other than what they're willing to admit to, and that's the way they like it, because it keeps our adversaries looking over their shoulder.

When you talk about one world government, you're talking about the people who own the banks, they control the flow of money worldwide, and if the Chinese or the russians don't play their game, their governments can be easily strangled financially until they come back into line.

I apologize if i sound like i'm singing from Alex Jones' book of hymns, but i can almost believe that what we know of as government is nothing more than a front, a mind trick to make us believe that we're making a difference and selecting our next leader, when the truth of the matter likely is that the real decision making is done by an unelected, likely hereditary star council, which then hands down it's decisions to the president to execute. As far as all us sheep are concerned, the president is running the country, we don't have to know that he's taking orders from a higher body cloaked in secrecy. Like i said, a body that isn't elected, and answers to no one, but everyone, including presidents, prime ministers, legislatures and supreme courts ultimately answer to them.

that's my theory, it's nothing more than a theory and of course, i have no evidence to back it up, just a cheap theory on one world government.
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johns624
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RE: Woodward: Secret Killing Program Is Key In Iraq

Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:01 pm



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 34):
Like i said, a body that isn't elected, and answers to no one, but everyone, including presidents, prime ministers, legislatures and supreme courts ultimately answer to them.

Name names! We know who the leaders of the banks are and the banks aren't doing so well right now. You sound like your talking about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which everyone knows is a load of BS...

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