StuckInCA
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There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:12 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/200...;_ylt=AlrLbDTZIpZLwMAiXJc5Ny2s0NUE

A new study out of Yale University confirms what argumentative liberals have long-known: Offering reality-based rebuttals to conservative lies only makes conservatives cling to those lies even harder.

Interesting.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:16 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Thread starter):
A new study out of Yale University

You messed up in the first sentence. How dare you quote some Eastern Elitist bastion of liberal  Wink  Wink
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OA412
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:22 am

Wait a minute! They needed a study to figure out what all us dirty, commie, pinko, unwashed liberals have always known?  duck 

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
You messed up in the first sentence. How dare you quote some Eastern Elitist bastion of liberal  

 rotfl 
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RJdxer
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:22 am

A study from Yale, reported in the Washington Post, in an Op-Ed piece from the Huffington Post. And this is supposed to have credibility? Yes, I've never argued with a liberal that has agreed that tax cuts led to higher tax receipts at the treasury. Or that welfare, as it was up until welfare reform in 1996 was an abject failure. Or that entitlement spending is what is really bankrupting the government.
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dl021
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:06 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Thread starter):

A new study out of Yale University confirms what argumentative liberals have long-known: Offering reality-based rebuttals to conservative lies only makes conservatives cling to those lies even harder.

Well, if you take an editorial using some facts and some conjecture and report this editorial as fact (especially when the editorial is from a very slanted source) you are eliminating your own credibility right from the start.

The fundamental premise is that conservatives are liars. Am I lying about anything?

This sort of psuedo-scientific study is the kind of crap you feed the choir to get them excited.

I will say that arguing with any idealogue is a useless exercise.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:10 am

I think just reading a-net threads will confirm that political debates in the States consist of two groups of people yelling at each other from across a divide without anyone ever realising the potential merits of counter-arguments.

I love many things about America. One of the few things I don't like is that Americans tend to pick a political party, and then define their own morals and ideals based on the morals and ideals of the party....and don't tend to compromise. In other normal parts of the world, people tend to form their ideals, and then assess how the difering parties compare against those ideals, and vote accordingly.
 
sv7887
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:16 am



Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 5):
One of the few things I don't like is that Americans tend to pick a political party, and then define their own morals and ideals based on the morals and ideals of the party....and don't tend to compromise. In other normal parts of the world, people tend to form their ideals, and then assess how the difering parties compare against those ideals, and vote accordingly.

Part of the problem is that we have only two "viable" political parties...Politicians here have exploited that using a divide and conquer strategy.

Ideology is a dangerous thing and people do as you say need to consider things outside of their normal box of thought...Most successful companies utilize a Plan Do Check Adjust strategy. The same should follow here.

Not so sure about your second point...Outside the US we've got people blowing each other up over religion, starting race riots, etc. It happens everywhere unfortunately.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:16 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
Well, if you take an editorial using some facts and some conjecture and report this editorial as fact (especially when the editorial is from a very slanted source) you are eliminating your own credibility right from the start.

Wow. Calm down.

I thought the opinion piece was funny and thought others might feel the same way. The Washington Post article linked in it is pretty interesting.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
The fundamental premise is that conservatives are liars.

I don't think that's the premise at all. People may believe what they are arguing.

The article points out some flaws in how liberals react to refuted information too.

Breathe everyone.
 
N1120A
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:19 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):

I will say that arguing with any idealogue is a useless exercise.

Just what is an idealogue to you?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Or that entitlement spending is what is really bankrupting the government.

Those "entitlement" programs you speak of are designed to be self-funding, and payroll taxes cover a massive portion of those programs. The other issue is that the government has its rules written in such a way that it gets fleeced on the costs of those services, with a very good example being Bush's Medicare prescription plan and another being the disparity in health care costs in the US versus other industrialized countries. Another issue is that Social Security is constantly being raided to make up for Federal short falls in other areas, and the largest areas of the federal budget are the DOD and the "War on Terror". Further, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars aren't even part of the budget equation, because they are appropriations and thus drain the treasury without being fully accounted for. It is that kind of discretionary spending that is bankrupting the government.
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Blackbird
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:32 am

StuckInCA,

Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20080917/cm_huffpost/126805;_ylt=AlrLbDTZIpZLwMAiXJc5Ny2s0NUE

A new study out of Yale University confirms what argumentative liberals have long-known: Offering reality-based rebuttals to conservative lies only makes conservatives cling to those lies even harder.

Interesting.



Some conservatives can be really almost impossible to deal with in that they seem impenetrable to an alternate view, and in some cases even logic and reason. I haven't seen that "rebound" effect much, however. I don't recall their beliefs becoming stronger when they've been presented with contradiction -- I just see unresponsiveness (unaffected by the information) and more butting of heads.

I don't really understand how the person would "argue back" against what they were told in their minds and then not just remain unaffected by it, but actually maintain a stronger (wrong) belief than they started out with...


Blackbird
 
Mike89406
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:39 am

Two useless debates in this country are Politics & Religion. I have better things in my life (like my career & family) than to get obsessed about political affiliation. I have my views and beliefs but will not get in to a useless debate because everywhere you go internet work etc....there will always be a pissing contest either way. To be honest there will be dirt on liberals and conservatives. I will vote accordingly in November that is all I have to say about that.

Regards Mike

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 5):
I think just reading a-net threads will confirm that political debates in the States consist of two groups of people yelling at each other from across a divide without anyone ever realising the potential merits of counter-arguments.

I love many things about America. One of the few things I don't like is that Americans tend to pick a political party, and then define their own morals and ideals based on the morals and ideals of the party....and don't tend to compromise. In other normal parts of the world, people tend to form their ideals, and then assess how the difering parties compare against those ideals, and vote accordingly.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
I think just reading a-net threads will confirm that political debates in the States consist of two groups of people yelling at each other from across a divide without anyone ever realising the potential merits of counter-arguments.

I love many things about America. One of the few things I don't like is that Americans tend to pick a political party, and then define their own morals and ideals based on the morals and ideals of the party....and don't tend to compromise. In other normal parts of the world, people tend to form their ideals, and then assess how the difering parties compare against those ideals, and vote accordingly.

As an american I totally agree....
 
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Aaron747
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:44 am



Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 5):
One of the few things I don't like is that Americans tend to pick a political party, and then define their own morals and ideals based on the morals and ideals of the party....and don't tend to compromise.

The defining reason I will never subject myself to membership in either of the majority parties. Compromise is a necessary skill in business and most other walks of life, which might explain why there aren't many successful businesspeople currently employed as pols in Washington.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 9):
Some conservatives can be really almost impossible to deal with in that they seem impenetrable to an alternate view, and in some cases even logic and reason.

Conservatives have a monopoly on this brand of thinking? Look no further than the current Democratic congressional leaders and their supporters.
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sccutler
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:50 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Another issue is that Social Security is constantly being raided to make up for Federal short falls in other areas, and the largest areas of the federal budget are the DOD and the "War on Terror".

Not wanting to attack your essential point (the fundamental inability of government to handle money and the power of taxation responsibly), but DoD and "War on Terror," while substantial, are far from being the "largest areas" of the federal budget; those would be Social Security and Medicare, which together aggregate over 35% of the federal budget.

What is worse, is that, while military spending can be controlled with some ease, by their nature, SS and Medicare are very difficult to restrict. They are the "1200 lb gorilla."
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iairallie
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:03 pm

Well at least we are happier and get more action according to two studies released earlier this year.

Like liberals are the bastion of reason. HAH!
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falstaff
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:50 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 13):
Like liberals are the bastion of reason.

Liberals want tell us how everything should be. They complain because GWB took away a right or two from people who didn't deserve them to begin with, but given the chance they will take our guns, our SUVs, our smokes, etc. All for the benefit to society. So I gues the average liberal is mad because it wasn't them who took away some rights.

You can't argue with conservatives because we are always right! Liberalism hasn't got us a damn thing, just more poverty, more crime, and more people dependant on the government to help them.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
The fundamental premise is that conservatives are liars

Liberals make stuff up all the time when they can't get their way.
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CMHSRQ
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:01 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Some conservatives can be really almost impossible to deal with in that they seem impenetrable to an alternate view, and in some cases even logic and reason. I haven't seen that "rebound" effect much, however. I don't recall their beliefs becoming stronger when they've been presented with contradiction -- I just see unresponsiveness (unaffected by the information) and more butting of heads.

I don't really understand how the person would "argue back" against what they were told in their minds and then not just remain unaffected by it, but actually maintain a stronger (wrong) belief than they started out with...

The key here is some, what I like about both parties is how they stereotype and lump all Republicans as war mongering, blow everything up, praise Jesus, NRA card carrying a-holes and Democrats are communist, tree hugging, do as I say not as I do, terrorist loving wimps. When only about 15 or so percent of the people in each group are actually that extreme. Unfortunately these people usually make the most noise, and create the most mis- information. The vast majority of people are moderate, with a more balanced view and thoughts and beliefs from both sides. This moderate group can all agree that politicians SUCK.


I for one will vote for the candidate who does the following:
1. Returns the USA to the status or world leader in something good, could be environmental, could be research, banking, something that will improve the lives of all people.
2. Balances the budget, by spending less not taxing more.
3. Makes the US energy independent, by developing a energy plan that promotes both conservation and development of new sources of energy.
4. Reduces the trade deficit, I think that if #3 was done this would take care of it's self.
5. Returns the US to a beacon of hope for other countries.
6. Gets rid of lobbyists. The government (yes the House and Senate included) are run by corporations and whats best for them, not the people that hired them, US citizens.
7 Creates a plan for Social Security and Medicaid. Thats the $140 a barrel oil problem 30 years from now. Everyone knows its coming, but nothing is being done about it.

I really don't care about abortion, Roe vs Wade isn't going to change and both parties should just get over it.

So what am I? Republican, Democrat, or Independent?

[Edited 2008-09-18 09:14:28]
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BN747
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Thread starter):
A new study out of Yale University confirms what argumentative liberals have long-known: Offering reality-based rebuttals to conservative lies only makes conservatives cling to those lies even harder.

Absolutely, conservatives can talk themselves out of 'gravity' being real if need be. It's based on a false fear of 'something/someone' always out to take away something materialistic or some possession from them. (and it's never "Freedom"..Oh, they'll always use that as the rallying cry, yet, truth be told.. it never has anything to do with what they're actually out to obtain.

Quoting Cmhsrq (Reply 15):
I for one will vote for the candidate who does the following:



So what am I? Republican, Democrat, or Independent?

It sounds like Obama already has snagged your vote...cuz McCain is far cry from ALL of that.

BN747
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:28 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
but given the chance they will take our guns, our SUVs, our smokes, etc.

Um, no..that's ridiculous. Most liberals support 2nd amendment rights...and you're just blowing smoke with the others.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
Liberalism hasn't got us a damn thing,

Look up what liberalism really means before you say something like that...
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N1120A
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:56 pm



Quoting Cmhsrq (Reply 15):
When only about 15 or so percent of the people in each group are actually that extreme.

So 15% of "liberals" love terrorists? I don't think so.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):

Liberals want tell us how everything should be.

Have you been paying attention the last 8 years?

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
They complain because GWB took away a right or two from people who didn't deserve them to begin with, but given the chance they will take our guns, our SUVs, our smokes, etc.

Who didn't deserve them? You don't "deserve" rights. Rights are not privileges.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 12):
but DoD and "War on Terror," while substantial, are far from being the "largest areas" of the federal budget; those would be Social Security and Medicare, which together aggregate over 35% of the federal budget.

You apparently missed most of the post. Social Security and Medicare are self-funded. The issue is the rest of the budget, of which the biggest portions are the DOD, War on Terror and massive appropriations, which borrow from Social Security and don't pay it back.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 17):
Most liberals support 2nd amendment rights...

Exactly. People can own guns, I have no problem with that. The Second Amendment says nothing about owning an arsenal fit for the army of some small countries or the unregulated trade in guns.
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CMHSRQ
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:32 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
It sounds like Obama already has snagged your vote...cuz McCain is far cry from ALL of that.

Actually I haven't really heard that from either. I'm still undecided.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Quoting Cmhsrq (Reply 15):
When only about 15 or so percent of the people in each group are actually that extreme.

So 15% of "liberals" love terrorists? I don't think so.

Should I have put anti-American or hates the US instead? I was just talking about stereotypes and giving examples of some of them, while pointing out that a very small % of people are extreme right or left.

Are you in that 15% N1120A ?
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N1120A
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 19):

Should I have put anti-American or hates the US instead? I was just talking about stereotypes and giving examples of some of them, while pointing out that a very small % of people are extreme right or left.

You insult a whole lot of people by stating that such large percentages exist.
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ltbewr
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:38 pm

From my experience, it is near impossible to get hard core conservatives to move to the middle. That might change for some now with the economic meltdown were are seeing here in the USA due in part to Conservative led deregulation of banks, finanical services, food safety, work safety, immigation and other areas.
 
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:50 pm

Id say an equal agrument that there is no arguing with liberals.

Frankly I think the extremes of both sides are pieces of work. Each being equally as bad as their counterparts on the other end of the spectrum.

Both are close minded, oppinionated people who wont listen or any oppinion that comes from the "other side"

Liberals who criticize a politician who says the word " God" are just as bad as conservatives who criticize gay rights and abortion rights. But dont tell that to either side, because it will spur a long rant as to why its not true  Wink
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CMHSRQ
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
You insult a whole lot of people by stating that such large percentages exist.

Well hopefully they are adults and they can deal with it.

So how else to you explain the very low approval ratings of the House, Senate, and the Pres? As in the % of people who actually do approve in what they are doing?

If you are from France N1120A i really don't expect you to understand. We have two totally different cultures.
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N1120A
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 23):

If you are from France N1120A i really don't expect you to understand. We have two totally different cultures.

You have been here long enough to know better than that.

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 23):

So how else to you explain the very low approval ratings of the House, Senate, and the Pres? As in the % of people who actually do approve in what they are doing?

Congress historically has a very low approval rating, because the general population doesn't really understand how they work. That the President has such a low approval rating is a good indication of the piss poor job this administration has done.

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 23):

Well hopefully they are adults and they can deal with it.

Calling people names, especially false names, isn't a particularly "adult" thing to do.
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CMHSRQ
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:48 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 23):

If you are from France N1120A i really don't expect you to understand. We have two totally different cultures.


You have been here long enough to know better than that.

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 23):

So how else to you explain the very low approval ratings of the House, Senate, and the Pres? As in the % of people who actually do approve in what they are doing?

Congress historically has a very low approval rating, because the general population doesn't really understand how they work. That the President has such a low approval rating is a good indication of the piss poor job this administration has done.

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 23):

Well hopefully they are adults and they can deal with it.

Calling people names, especially false names, isn't a particularly "adult" thing to do.

You're killing me, look past the single words and understand the point I'm trying to make.

First I don't know if you're French or not. I had a coworker who married an American girl and has been living in the states for 20 years, but he is still 100% French in his thinking. Hence the reason I was asking.

Now the point to the approval ratings. My point is that people still actually approve what they are doing, which to me is amazing. Think about it, a small % of people, probably the very right wingers I'm talking about feel that the pres is probably the greatest man alive in promoting their cause. He can do no wrong. Get it now?


Name calling, dude where are you coming up with this? Did you read the post? read it again a few more times if you don't mind. I was pointing out that people hear that someone is a Republican or Democrat and they stereotype them, then I gave examples. No name calling at all.

So if you don't mind answer this question. When I say Republican you think?
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N1120A
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:44 pm



Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 25):
When I say Republican you think?

That is highly simplistic. That said, generally what comes to mind is a political party that generally panders to the whims of corporations and religious zealots at the expense of the middle class and the civil rights and liberties of the general public. Further, the modern Republican party makes me think of severe fiscal irresponsibility and a completely bass ackward regulatory scheme. Of course, there are some Republicans I think are great. Richard Riordan and Lincoln Chafee are 2 of them.
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sv7887
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:07 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
a completely bass ackward regulatory scheme.

You mean the Democrats AND Republicans that voted to pass the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act

"The bills were introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-TX) and in the House of Representatives by James Leach (R-IA). The bills were passed by a 54-44 vote along party lines with Republican support in the Senate[1] and by a 343-86 vote in the House of Representatives[2]. Nov 4, 1999: After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions. The final bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90-8-1 and in the House: 362-57-15. This veto proof legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999."

So the bill had unanimous support amongst Dems and Republicans...

Deregulation of the Airlines was championed by Mr. Carter and signed into law by him..
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:20 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
That is highly simplistic. That said, generally what comes to mind is a political party that generally panders to the whims of corporations and religious zealots at the expense of the middle class and the civil rights and liberties of the general public. Further, the modern Republican party makes me think of severe fiscal irresponsibility and a completely bass ackward regulatory scheme. Of course, there are some Republicans I think are great. Richard Riordan and Lincoln Chafee are 2 of them.

okay, and how about Democrats?
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falstaff
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Have you been paying attention the last 8 years?

For the most part the last eight years of my life have been just fine. I voted for Bush and other than Iraq I think he was a good president.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Who didn't deserve them

Americans who took up arms against this country in the name of Islamic fascism.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Rights are not privileges.

They are. A government can choose to not give you any rights at all. A right is a privilege a government decides to give you. You can argue that every person has rights and I would agree, but there are a lot of people in this world that are oppressed and have few or no basic rights because their government will not allow it. The private ownership of firearms means that the people hold in their hands the instrument which can change the government. Without it the government is all powerful and can do what ever it wants to.

When the liberal government takes my basic right to own any firearm I wish (and can afford to own) away that will be my last day on earth. They will kill me to get my guns, but I'll get as many of them as I can. You can have your freedom of speech and expression, but if you can't back it up what good is it.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 17):
Most liberals support 2nd amendment rights.

Sort of... They like to think the 2nd amendment means the Army can own guns (why would the framers even have to write that down?). They think the 2nd amendment has something to do with hunting or target shooting. They are for the right to own guns as long as they are not semi-automatic, automatic, have a banana magazine, look like something a gangster might own, are "high powered", or military in style. Just look at California if you want to see how much liberals love the 2nd amendment.

the average liberal hates guns. Not all of them by anymeans, but the average one does. You should see the way my liberal coworkers get creeped out when they come to my house and see a gun laying out.
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N1120A
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:27 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
A government can choose to not give you any rights at all.

No, it can't. We own this government, which means we own the rights.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
A right is a privilege a government decides to give you.

Wow, that is a scary view.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 27):

Deregulation of the Airlines was championed by Mr. Carter and signed into law by him..

And that was a good form of deregulation.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):

Americans who took up arms against this country in the name of Islamic fascism.

That has nothing to do with the Constitution.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
Just look at California if you want to see how much liberals love the 2nd amendment.

Huh? Every non-felon citizen in California has the right to own a gun.
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BN747
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:40 pm

Oh..and did I mention 'Guns n' Bibles' a uniquely 'conservative' virtue?


BN747
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RSWA330
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:20 pm

It's hard convincing liberals too. Let's look at a few examples...

Obama has close ties with Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. In fact, he got more money from them than any other member of Congress (except Dodd). Not to mention that Raines is one of his financial advisers.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,423701,00.html

He tried delaying troop withdrawls in Iraq until after the election. Seems like Barack is more concerned about making his campaign look good than he is about getting troops home safe.
http://www.newsmax.com/brennan/obama...op_withdraw/2008/09/16/131238.html

Obama says he will only raise taxes on 5% of the population. Analysis shows that by 2009, that 5% will look something more like 20%.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-check-obama-wants-to-raise-taxes/
The sad part about the above article is that they accuse McCain of telling a half-truth. However, they completely gloss over the fact that Obama lied! Obama says he will only raise taxes on 5%, yet in reality, that number will be 20%. Where is the "fact check" on that one? Not to mention the capital gains tax and estate tax which effect people of all income levels.

However, liberals will continue to point the finger at Republicans and claim we are liars and "elitists." All the while they completely ignore their own party's lies. Democrats run dirty campaigns just like Republicans. Unfortunately, the Democrats have the media on their side and their lies are conveniently left out. In short, both sides will be fighting well into the future.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):

For the most part the last eight years of my life have been just fine. I voted for Bush and other than Iraq I think he was a good president.

How, exactly, has Bush been 'good'? Inquiring minds would like to know. As far as I'm concerned, the two categorically unforgivable aspects of his Presidency have been refusing to fire Rumsfeld and squandering the world's compassion and goodwill toward the country following 9/11. The latter point is something we will still be paying the price of for years regardless of who is elected in November.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
When the liberal government takes my basic right to own any firearm I wish (and can afford to own) away that will be my last day on earth. They will kill me to get my guns, but I'll get as many of them as I can.

That's certainly your right, but what's with the "us vs. them" mentality? As has been pointed out, WE own the government. Never forget that. It would be far more effective to encourage your friends, family and co-workers to stop paying taxes, en masse. Better yet, bring a citizen's referendum on Congressional pensions and pay so they can stop padding their pockets with spending money while doing next to nothing when occupying the Capitol.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
Just look at California if you want to see how much liberals love the 2nd amendment.

This native Californian is pretty liberal on most social issues but I've voted 'no' on every gun measure I've ever seen on a ballot. You're just as guilty as the liberals of blanket categorization with comments like that, so you've pretty much negated the strength of the soapbox.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
RJdxer
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:53 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Those "entitlement" programs you speak of are designed to be self-funding,

Social Security is supposedly self funded through FICA taxes as is Medicare through a payroll deduct but not Medicaid, Welfare, or any of a number of housing assistance programs that make up "entitlement" spending just to name a few. In addition Medicare is woefully underfunded as is demonstrated every July as Congress must hurriedly pass a supplemental spending appropriation bill, as they did this past summer. So saying that these programs are "self" funded is a pretty big overstatement of the actual facts.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
and payroll taxes cover a massive portion of those programs.

FICA andPayroll taxes are supposedly meant to cover Social Security, SSDI, and medicare. Medicaid and the rest are discretionary spending based on income taxes.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Another issue is that Social Security is constantly being raided to make up for Federal short falls in other areas,

Not raided, redirected. It has been that way since the Greenspan commision in the early 1980's. That is when it was decided to issue U.S. Treasury securities to cover the overpayment of fica taxes by the citizens. Since 1983 the government has racked up some 2 trillion and change in debt to the Social Security administration.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
and the largest areas of the federal budget are the DOD and the "War on Terror".

That is untrue. DOD is the one specifically mandated fiscal responsibility of the Federal Government according to the Constitution.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Further, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars aren't even part of the budget equation, because they are appropriations and thus drain the treasury without being fully accounted for. It is that kind of discretionary spending that is bankrupting the government.

That is also untrue. They are budgeted in to the DOD appropriation bill every year. Supplemental spending must be done by extra appropriation. Again, DOD spending is not discretionary, it is mandated by the Constitution.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 12):
but DoD and "War on Terror," while substantial, are far from being the "largest areas" of the federal budget; those would be Social Security and Medicare, which together aggregate over 35% of the federal budget.

 checkmark 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Social Security and Medicare are self-funded.

SS adds to the nations debt every year and more and more doctors are turning away medicare patients every year due to the underfunding of the Medicare program.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
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falstaff
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:00 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Every non-felon citizen in California has the right to own a gun.

What kind of gun? There are dozens of common fire arms that are not legal in California, because of their appearance (assault weapons bans are based on appearance not ballistics) or magazine capacity. Those same firearms that are illegal in California are legal in most other states. The felon can own any gun they want since they can't buy them legally they don't have to follow the law restricting their purchases.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
How, exactly, has Bush been 'good'?

Nothing bad has happened in my life. My job is great, my taxes are reasonably low (but still too high), and I don't have any real problems. I don't give a damn about what the rest of the world thinks about GWB or the USA, what the world thinks doesn't put food on my table.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Americans who took up arms against this country in the name of Islamic fascism.

That has nothing to do with the Constitution.

Sure it does, they want due process and they do not deserve it.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 31):
'Guns n' Bibles'

I keep a gun and a bible in my night stand drawer.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
A government can choose to not give you any rights at all.

No, it can't. We own this government, which means we own the rights.

If the government decides to steam roller over your rights what are you going to do about it? Governments violate people's rights all the time. Take China for example, which is known for its many human rights violations. It has chosen not to grant any rights to those people it violates. What can the people do, better not complain. If a government can't grant rights than why do people flee oppresive places to come to free places?
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
RSWA330
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:42 am

RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:34 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
How, exactly, has Bush been 'good'? Inquiring minds would like to know.

He warned Congress in 2003 that Fannie and Freddie needed heavier regulation. The Democrats didn't agree however. After all, increased regulation would have made it more difficult for those low-income families to secure homes. Ironically, those same people are getting their homes taken away from them today.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print
 
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Aaron747
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:09 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 35):
My job is great, my taxes are reasonably low (but still too high), and I don't have any real problems. I don't give a damn about what the rest of the world thinks about GWB or the USA, what the world thinks doesn't put food on my table.

I wasn't aware that the PotUS was responsible for charting and steering the course of your life. Unless you're in the military, the President is mostly irrelevant to you on a day to day basis regardless of who or what he is. This type of innane comment is about as far as possible from answering the question that was posed. Thanks for playing.

As an aside, you may not care what the world thinks, but that brand of thinking is delusional when you're in an industry as fully-globalized as yours. Again, thanks for playing. Take Econ 101 when you have a spare few months.

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 36):
He warned Congress in 2003 that Fannie and Freddie needed heavier regulation. The Democrats didn't agree however.

He warned Congress and then did nothing to stop them. That, in my mind, means he was 'bad'. Stop passing the buck.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:29 pm

If you cannot argue effectively with a conservative.....then complain about how they argue.
Is this the "white flag" being shown to us? Is this surrender without actually saying it?

What a totally last-ditch attempt by a desperate and exhausted democrat. Get some sleep you guys. You cannot spam forums nationwide 24/7 without sufficient rest.
 
sccutler
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RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:55 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):

You apparently missed most of the post. Social Security and Medicare are self-funded. The issue is the rest of the budget, of which the biggest portions are the DOD, War on Terror and massive appropriations, which borrow from Social Security and don't pay it back.

Medicare, alone, is on track to consume the entire federal budget, and this, within our lifetime.

Government-run stuff generally does not work. That's neither conservative nor liberal, it's simply reality.

Ask a sociologist why, it's above my pay-grade.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
mdsh00
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: There's No Arguing With Conservatives...

Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:08 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 35):

Sure it does, they want due process and they do not deserve it.

The Constitution damn well applies there too. If you really believe in this country and it's ideals, then the Constitution is it's most important part. Remember, government officials swear to "uphold the Constitution of the United States" not to uphold some political ideology.

Keeping those men imprisoned without is a legal travesty and is not to be determined by you or me whether or not they deserve it. The United States government has brought charges against them and through the principles that we hold sacred in the Constitution, are guaranteed the right to trial. Show the country and the world that we can do it right and that we are better than them and not a bunch of hypocrites that talk about "Freedom" and "Justice" when we don't practice it ourselves.

Guantanamo is a shame and I am glad it will probably be shut down no matter who becomes president.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."

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