tsaord
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:37 am

Or that is what some seem to think...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...farmer’s-market-feeling-a-draft/

ABOARD THE ELECTION EXPRESS: Cambridge, OH (CNN) — There was a farmer’s market under way on the courthouse square as we pulled into town, and across the street Howard Forsythe, 73, was walking into the bank to take care of some personal business.

We talked for a few minutes about the first presidential debate next week, and he said that if he were somehow allowed to ask the candidates one question, it would be this:

“What are you going to do about the fact that we’re going to have to initiate a military draft again?
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
UAL747
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:54 am

If the instituted another draft scenario, then who goes? Who doesn't? It would be a political mess that would take years to work out, not to mention there would be civilian riots and fallout from the idea of it floating through Washington.

Nobody wants it, other than old conservative ex. war Vets....who got drafted and had some sort of comraderie with their old soldiers and meet up for Vet meetings.

Won't happen, and if it does, Europe here I come. (actually, I have an excuse to not be drafted, but still yet)

UAL
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mham001
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:06 am



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 1):
Nobody wants it, other than old conservative ex. war Vets....who got drafted and had some sort of comraderie with their old soldiers and meet up for Vet meetings.

Actually, the last Congress people who discussed it were liberal democrats.

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 1):

Won't happen, and if it does, Europe here I come. (actually, I have an excuse to not be drafted, but still yet)

So you enjoy the benefits of this country but are too cowardly or selfish to give something in return?
 
Blackbird
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:07 am

If true, this is just a disaster. This would give Bush unlimited numbers of troops to sacrifice for his ill-conceived foreign policy.

And you do know there will be no deferments or any way out of serving -- afterall, after all the maneuvers the Neocons went to, using any excuse or military deferment to avoid military service, you'd figure they'd close up all the loop-holes.


Blackbird
 
Salukipilot
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:10 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 3):
So you enjoy the benefits of this country but are too cowardly or selfish to give something in return?

You mean give my life for nothing? Protect freedoms by restricting the freedom of innocent people? Go abroad and damage MY country's international reputation? Die for oil rights?

If that's what you mean then no...I will be sitting right next to UAL on the flight out of here.
Silver Airways Captain
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:18 am



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 1):
If the instituted another draft scenario, then who goes? Who doesn't? It would be a political mess that would take years to work out, not to mention there would be civilian riots and fallout from the idea of it floating through Washington.

What do you mean "Who Goes?" - the selection process is all clearly stated in the Selective Service information you receive when you enroll at age 18.

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 1):
Nobody wants it, other than old conservative ex. war Vets....who got drafted and had some sort of comraderie with their old soldiers and meet up for Vet meetings.

 sarcastic 
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Mir
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:09 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 3):
This would give Bush unlimited numbers of troops to sacrifice for his ill-conceived foreign policy.

Let's say Bush called for a draft tomorrow. Congress would not be debating such a measure until he was long out of office.

It will be Obama or McCain that has to deal with the prospect of a draft. Obama, for better or worse, will never support it. McCain might.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
LAXintl
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:14 am

While maybe not the draft directly, however I believe it would be a good idea to look at instituting some form of mandated national service which has been succesful at many nations across the globe.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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ManuCH
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:23 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
While maybe not the draft directly, however I believe it would be a good idea to look at instituting some form of mandated national service which has been succesful at many nations across the globe.

A national service of some sort isn't a bad idea. But still, many of the countries who have it have either abolished it, or reduced the quotas.

Italy already abolished the draft a few years ago. If I'm not mistaken, Germany is talking about it (or have they already? I'm not sure), and Switzerland is massively reducing the quotas.

My opinion is that an Army should be made of people who *want* to serve, or else they risk having a group of highly un-motivated people who wouldn't be of any help to the mission. And that's not useful if you actually want to win a war in modern times.
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
HowSwedeitis
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:45 am



Quoting Salukipilot (Reply 4):
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 3):
So you enjoy the benefits of this country but are too cowardly or selfish to give something in return?

You mean give my life for nothing? Protect freedoms by restricting the freedom of innocent people? Go abroad and damage MY country's international reputation? Die for oil rights?

If that's what you mean then no...I will be sitting right next to UAL on the flight out of here.

Exactly! If the US were attacked (and I mean invaded by a legitimate nation) such as it was in WWII, then I would defend it. But Vietnam? Iraq? Not when we're the one's attacking. I too would sit next to UAL and Saluki! I'll order the drinks, you grab the peanuts.

-HSII
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par13del
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:30 am

How would the politicians get the military leadership to go along with this, money? If passed it will be years before any draftee gets anywhere near a real combat situation. The military long since discovered that a motivated soldier is worth more than physical numbers. Draftees will probably be used in non-fighting roles until all the volunteers are gone and the professionalism of the military greatly reduced, then no one would care.

What the US needs to do is to continue where they were ahead of many countries, Peace Corp. Despite some quirks it is basically what the politicians really want, to ensure that their sons and daughters serve their country, so that when they support and vote for a war they have a better appreciation of what service is. Last I checked, the Bush Administration did not start any war without the support of the American people through their congressional vote.
 
jfk69
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The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:27 pm

The last one to introduce a bill to reinstate it was everyone's favorite scandal filled senator, Charles Rangel of NY.
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny15...l/CBRStatementonDraft02142006.html

Congressman Charles Rangel today introduced new legislation to reinstate the military draft that will include draftees up to 42 years of age.

"Every day that the military option is on the table, as declared by the President in his State of the Union address, in Iran, North Korea, and Syria, reinstatement of the military draft is an option that must also be considered, whether we like it or not," Congressman Rangel said. "If the military is already having trouble getting the recruits they need, what can we do to fill the ranks if the war spreads from Iraq to other countries? We may have no other choice but a draft."

But now my favorite part of the article....

"I don't expect my bill to pass"

Then don't introduce it and waste government time buddy!
 
PacNWjet
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:27 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 3):
If true, this is just a disaster. This would give Bush unlimited numbers of troops to sacrifice for his ill-conceived foreign policy.

Are you aware there is a presidential election in the United States in 38 days with a new president taking office in 114 days? Exactly how, pray tell, will this contribute to President Bush's foreign policy? Do you really think an undertaking like this could take place in less than four months?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 3):
This would give Bush unlimited numbers of troops to sacrifice for his ill-conceived foreign policy.

 sarcastic  Obviously, as usual, you have missed what the OP write. He was talking about the issue, and wanting to question the Presidental candidates about it.

On a side note, I cannot be drafted. I'm deaf...  Smile So I am all good!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
L-188
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:44 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
While maybe not the draft directly, however I believe it would be a good idea to look at instituting some form of mandated national service which has been succesful at many nations across the globe.

There is another word for that it is called slavery.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 11):
But now my favorite part of the article....

"I don't expect my bill to pass"

Then don't introduce it and waste government time buddy!

Agree with you entirely....Actually Rangle just got with non-running car towed from the congressional parking garage.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:28 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 21):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
While maybe not the draft directly, however I believe it would be a good idea to look at instituting some form of mandated national service which has been succesful at many nations across the globe.

There is another word for that it is called slavery.

or paying back what society provided to you.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Cadet57
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:30 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 21):
There is another word for that it is called slavery.

The swiss dont seem to mind...
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Blackbird
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:44 pm

Salukipilot,

First of all, I did not make that quote... Mham001 did. I personally agree with most of what you said


AirframeAS,

Good point. However, say we do float the question the candidates about it -- what do you think it will do? You think they're honestly going to say, "I'm going to draft every single person from 18-42 I can get my hands on and send them off to fight an endless series of wars for the plundering of oil, and empire-building"??? They're going to lie their asses off and say how a draft isn't necessary even though we've been at war for 5-1/2 years, and that they would never want to use a draft and that a draft isn't a good idea (we'll it isn't, but they don't actually truly believe it's a bad idea -- they just need bodies to put in uniform, give guns to and train them how to shoot them).


Blackbird
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:05 pm

I am totally against a mandated National Service. If we dont want to serve in something like that, we shouldnt have to.

As far as a possible draft, I wouldn't have a problem with going. However, If a draft was imminent, I would sign up anyway. I would rather do something I like/and am good at than do something I hate/and suck at it.

-Delta767300ER
 
Blackbird
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:28 pm

Delta767300ER,

I agree with the first passage, I also am against Compulsory National Service.

However I'm also opposed to a draft in all but the most dire situations... Invading Iraq was not a dire situation (Congress only allowed it because they were lied to) -- and if we didn't sacrifice so many innocent people in Iraq, we wouldn't be in this predicament now.


Blackbird
 
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falstaff
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:22 am



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 9):
But Vietnam? Iraq? Not when we're the one's attacking

In Vietnam, the Republic of Vietnam asked for our country's help and we gave it to them. The USA did not invade.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 21):
There is another word for that it is called slavery.

Its not slavery if you get paid for it.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:08 am

Assuming there is a winding down in Iraq, there will be a lot less need for troops in the future. If the economy goes into a long term recession, there will be enough people willing to enlist to survive or get college money. To have an active draft - which should also include women - would be a nightmare of many avoiding with lies. Some would say they were gay/lesbian. Some would take illegal drugs to disqualify. Those rich enough will 'buy' exemptions from doctors as to mental health or exaggrate physical problems or get the laws adjusted by the politicans. Other still would leave the country to places with weak extridition treaties.
 
fridgmus
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:40 am

There will be no draft, simple as that. Our country won't stand for it, although in my own opinion a lot our youth would benefit greatly from serving in the Military! It did wonders for my ass!!! bigthumbsup 

As has been previously said, a volunteer who is motivated to be there will be a much better soldier than a draftee who does not want to be there. Hell, they'd all just go to Canada anyway.

Just my  twocents 
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SmithAir747
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:43 am

With one bad (nearly blind) eye, and no ears (and a hearing aid), would I be eligible to serve whether there was a draft or not, in any of the service branches?

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
Rara
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:58 am



Quoting SmithAir747 (Reply 23):
With one bad (nearly blind) eye, and no ears (and a hearing aid), would I be eligible to serve whether there was a draft or not, in any of the service branches?

Let's say if they draft you, we know the situation is dire.  Smile
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:03 pm



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 22):
As has been previously said, a volunteer who is motivated to be there will be a much better soldier than a draftee who does not want to be there. Hell, they'd all just go to Canada anyway.

On the other hand, all WW2 armies were made up out of draftees (on both sides). The majority of the draftees turned out to have a fully professional attitude towards their tasks.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Rara
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:08 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
On the other hand, all WW2 armies were made up out of draftees (on both sides). The majority of the draftees turned out to have a fully professional attitude towards their tasks.

They were arguably fighting for the survival of their respective countries, however. If US draftees go to Iran or some obscure African place, I doubt they'd see the same importance in that.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:10 pm

I nominate this thread in the "Stupidest" category.

There is no military service draft being seriously proposed by any credible US Government official.

The OP is using a political BLOG as a source in order to stir up the political partisans, conspiracy theorists, mantally slow, and general left wing nut bags.

The OP has lost all credibility.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:19 pm



Quoting Rara (Reply 26):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
On the other hand, all WW2 armies were made up out of draftees (on both sides). The majority of the draftees turned out to have a fully professional attitude towards their tasks.

They were arguably fighting for the survival of their respective countries, however. If US draftees go to Iran or some obscure African place, I doubt they'd see the same importance in that.

Ok, as my highschool history teacher said:
"The combat efficiency of an army is inversely proprtional to the distance from home".

But the US during Vietnam were a special case:

For any soldier the comrades of his direct unit (section, platoon, up to company or battalion level) are like his family, he knows them, he depends on them and they on him. If you talk to veterans, they stuck it through, because they didn't want to let their friends down.
Unlike other armies, like the British, who have a tradition of "regimental tribalism", of strong unit cohaesion and who would always move a battalion as a whole unit (they train and live together in peacetime, they'll fight together in war), the US military sent individuals to wherever they were needed.
This way, they never really built up a "family" and essentially lost this additional solidarity and will of the individual soldiers to stick to their unit. There was no emotional connection with the unit.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Venus6971
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:19 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 28):
For any soldier the comrades of his direct unit (section, platoon, up to company or battalion level) are like his family, he knows them, he depends on them and they on him. If you talk to veterans, they stuck it through, because they didn't want to let their friends down.
Unlike other armies, like the British, who have a tradition of "regimental tribalism", of strong unit cohesion and who would always move a battalion as a whole unit (they train and live together in peacetime, they'll fight together in war), the US military sent individuals to wherever they were needed.
This way, they never really built up a "family" and essentially lost this additional solidarity and will of the individual soldiers to stick to their unit. There was no emotional connection with the unit.

The problem with that type of a regiment is that when they go to battle they are affected adversely when they start seeing childhood friends killed plus if the whole regiment is in the fight with the brain dead tactics of frontal assaults on machine guns with really ineffective artillery it effects a town for generations if a whole Regiment gets wiped out, this is probably one of the contributing factors today of a western Europe that has a zero population growth, just think if WW1 and WW2 were never fought. Europe would have been over populated with large immigrations to North America due to millions of draft age men being around to have children than dieing on the battle field.
My time spent in England I noticed almost every small town had a memorial of a Tommy standing on a column with names of the dead which sometimes numbered in the hundreds from WW1 , it almost makes you wonder where they found the manpower for WW2.
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johns624
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 29):
The problem with that type of a regiment is that when they go to battle they are affected adversely when they start seeing childhood friends killed plus if the whole regiment is in the fight with the brain dead tactics of frontal assaults on machine guns with really ineffective artillery it effects a town for generations if a whole Regiment gets wiped out
My time spent in England I noticed almost every small town had a memorial of a Tommy standing on a column with names of the dead which sometimes numbered in the hundreds from WW1 , it almost makes you wonder where they found the manpower for WW2.

The Casualty Lists in the Scottish War Memorial at Edinburgh Castle were very sobering...so many Camerons, MacDonalds, Campbells, etc. Fort William has just the kind of monument that you mentioned.
 
Ken777
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:29 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 11):
Then don't introduce it and waste government time buddy!

Actually it was a wise idea to put the risk of a draft in front of the public. Bush & Pals have created a huge mess in terms of military recruitment and retention. Not only do we have the Iraq War, we also have abnormally long deployments and too little time at home with family between deployments.

So Bush & Pals have a few other countries they are looking over. There is a need for Bush & pals to understand that the draft is a real potential if they expand the areas of conflict, just as there is a need for the public to understand that their children are at risk in a draft. The risk alone might actually be sufficient for people like Bush & Cheney to back off in the future. If so then we owe Congressman Rangel a thank you note.
 
sv7887
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:34 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
Bush & Pals



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
Bush & pals



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
Bush & Cheney

Ummm you do realize he's about to leave office? Ask Obama what his position is on attacking Pakistan and Afghanistan again....

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
we owe Congressman Rangel a thank you note.

Yeah he owes the taxpayers for using a Congressional Garage as a storage space for his old Mercedes...
 
StuckInCA
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Fol

Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:59 pm



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 27):
There is no military service draft being seriously proposed by any credible US Government official.

I doubt if many people thought there was. Thanks for saving the day with your very helpful guidance.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 27):
The OP is using a political BLOG as a source in order to stir up the political partisans, conspiracy theorists, mantally slow, and general left wing nut bags.

It's a topic worthy of discussion, right? If not, why are you here? I don't believe we are anywhere near a draft being reinstated or that any politician would seriously try to pull it off unless the survival of the nation were clearly under threat, but I think it makes for interesting conversation. I find it specifically interesting because many conservatives will use those sorts of terms: "Survival of our way of life," "Fighting for our nation" etc etc, when it sort of rings hollow if the fight isn't serious enough that every able bodied citizen should be enlisted to fight. Right?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 27):
The OP has lost all credibility.

That's becoming an all too familiar refrain around here. It's like saying someone isn't patriotic or doesn't have "family values." Empty rhetoric.
 
jfk69
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:02 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 31):
The risk alone might actually be sufficient for people like Bush & Cheney to back off in the future. If so then we owe Congressman Rangel a thank you note.

Why should it matter if it gets voted down now or later? If it got rejected then the same thing would have happened if "Bush and Co." introduced the bill. It is a democratic house.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 32):
Yeah he owes the taxpayers for using a Congressional Garage as a storage space for his old Mercedes...

$290.00 a month for about 4 years now. Get paying congressman.


Alos, if he is forced to report his unclaimed income from his Punta Cana Villa, then he will be over the $175k threshold making him ineligible for the 3 rent stabilized apartments.....


Bye Bye Charlie.
 
PacNWjet
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 33):
It's a topic worthy of discussion, right? If not, why are you here?

Discussing the wisdom of mandatory military service in any country is a worthy endeavor. I think what DLPMMM objects to (as do I) is the original poster's reference to some person's unsubstantiated assertion that a military draft in the United States is inevitable as indicated in his proposed question to the presidential candidates “What are you going to do about the fact that we’re going to have to initiate a military draft again?" (emphasis added). What one can rightly object to is that the question does not provide any evidence to claim that the need to reinstate the draft in the United States is a fact.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:21 pm



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 35):
Discussing the wisdom of mandatory military service in any country is a worthy endeavor. I think what DLPMMM objects to (as do I) is the original poster's reference to some person's unsubstantiated assertion that a military draft in the United States is inevitable as indicated in his proposed question to the presidential candidates “What are you going to do about the fact that we’re going to have to initiate a military draft again?" (emphasis added). What one can rightly object to is that the question does not provide any evidence to claim that the need to reinstate the draft in the United States is a fact.

That seems fair, but look at the title of the thread and then tell me it's reasonable to say that the OP has "lost all credibility."
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:00 pm

Blackbird, Thanks. I am also opposed to a military draft. Sorry I didnt explain that.

-Delta767300ER
 
Ken777
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:10 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 32):
Ummm you do realize he's about to leave office?

I actually keep a widget on my computer that lets me know how much longer he'll be in office.

Right now it's 119 days, 23 hours and 56 minutes.  Smile

And I was raised in a conservative home if there ever was one.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 32):
Ask Obama what his position is on attacking Pakistan and Afghanistan again....

The ironic thing is that Obama/Biden might be the slowest to go into any future war.

McCain wanted to attack Iraq immediately after 9/11 - before the WMD BS was developed.

Palin actually talked about going to war over Georgia in her interview with Charles Gibson.

Neither of the two impress me very much, but then I was only a lowly enlisted man during the Vietnam War so my opinion probably doesn't count. (It does, however, answer the question as to why I am concerned about the impact of very long deployments and too short a time at home between deployments.)
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:48 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):

McCain wanted to attack Iraq immediately after 9/11 - before the WMD BS was developed.

Palin actually talked about going to war over Georgia in her interview with Charles Gibson.

Obama advocates doing exactly what Bush is doing now: Striking Pakistan unilaterally. That has resulted in US forces being fired upon by Pakistani forces and likely destabilizing the government. Do you really want a nuclear armed power falling into the wrong hands?

I have no dog in that fight, but even I see Pakistan falling into the wrong hands as extremely dangerous for the world.

The WMD hypothesis was accepted at the time, even President Clinton felt Saddam was pursuing it.

"Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade and much of his nation's wealth not on providing for the Iraqi people but on developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them"



Palin only communicated the obvious IF Georgia were a Nato ally and IF it were to be attacked. NATO regards an attack on one of it's members as an attack on all. She was merely parroting what the NATO charter says.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:00 pm



Quoting SmithAir747 (Reply 23):
With one bad (nearly blind) eye, and no ears (and a hearing aid), would I be eligible to serve whether there was a draft or not, in any of the service branches?

No. Not even the ADA Act of 1990 will help you against the military.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Fol

Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:12 pm

So a few things.

A few years back, some Congressional Democrats did propose a draft. The motive was that perhaps if more peoples' kids were being sent over to Iraq to die senselessly it might raise more public outcry. The draft would also mean that voters would be a lot more hesitant to support a hawkish candidate because EVERYONE's kid would be at risk.

Sometimes I do wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea.

For those of you who speak of "defending our freedoms," I would implore you to use some critical reasoning. That sort of talk is the bombastic puffed-up fruppery of a despot military dictator.

If you are going to fight a war, you should know who you are fighting and you should know what the definition of a victory or a loss is. There should also be a clear and credible direct threat to your nation and its security.

1) There is no evidence that Iraq had an active WMD program at the time that the U.S. invaded in 2003. The evidence was that all such programs had been suspended and that there were no WMD's that were in even remotely deployable condition at that time.

2) Initially, the war did have an identifiable enemy and a definition of victory. We were fighting the Iraqi military and victory was when they surrendered. At this point, we have no idea who we're fighting and we certainly have no way of knowing whether we're winning or losing other than charting hard-to-track changes in the level of bombings and such.

3) I find it difficult to defend such an action as "defending our freedoms" when the same administration also tried to suspend the rights to freedom of speech, due process and trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment.

"Freedom" and "liberty" are words with definitions; they should not be turned into weapons of power and control. Nonetheless, when abused, "freedom" and "liberty" become just as horrible as the words "Aryan," "Motherland," and "Jihad." And, lest we forget, there are countries in the world, including France, Spain, the Netherlands, and Canada that afford their citizens more freedoms and rights than the U.S. does.
-Doc Lightning-

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DLPMMM
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:53 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 33):
It's a topic worthy of discussion, right?

No, it is not. There are no credible people in authority promoting reinstatement of the draft. The OP's post is designed to create the impression of some sort of movement to reinstate the draft to those that don't read the entire thread closely, thereby spreading misinformation in the general population.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 33):
That's becoming an all too familiar refrain around here. It's like saying someone isn't patriotic or doesn't have "family values." Empty rhetoric.

Maybe it is getting too familiar because certain individuals are taking excessive liberties with the truth to make falacious political points.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 35):
Discussing the wisdom of mandatory military service in any country is a worthy endeavor. I think what DLPMMM objects to (as do I) is the original poster's reference to some person's unsubstantiated assertion that a military draft in the United States is inevitable as indicated in his proposed question to the presidential candidates %u201CWhat are you going to do about the fact that we%u2019re going to have to initiate a military draft again?" (emphasis added). What one can rightly object to is that the question does not provide any evidence to claim that the need to reinstate the draft in the United States is a fact.

 checkmark 

Or that "Some folks think it is".

Some folks also think the earth is flat.

Some folks think "pull and pray" is a good contraception method.

Some folks think all opinions are created equal, I don't.

Some opinions are just plain stupid and should be exposed as such.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 36):
That seems fair, but look at the title of the thread and then tell me it's reasonable to say that the OP has "lost all credibility."

Yes he has. He is trying to pass off a loony bird's rantings as a legitimate opinion, all in order to promote his political agenda. I will find it hard believing anything that comes from him in the future.
 
Blackbird
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:09 am

DocLightning,

Quote:
So a few things.

A few years back, some Congressional Democrats did propose a draft. The motive was that perhaps if more peoples' kids were being sent over to Iraq to die senselessly it might raise more public outcry. The draft would also mean that voters would be a lot more hesitant to support a hawkish candidate because EVERYONE's kid would be at risk.

Sometimes I do wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea.

Trust me it wouldn't. There would probably be some way they could make it seem necessary or just. The one thing I have learned about this administration is you should never underestimate the ability to manipulate people...

Quote:
For those of you who speak of "defending our freedoms," I would implore you to use some critical reasoning. That sort of talk is the bombastic puffed-up fruppery of a despot military dictator.

That's right, however not too many people seem to get this point.

Quote:
There is no evidence that Iraq had an active WMD program at the time that the U.S. invaded in 2003. The evidence was that all such programs had been suspended and that there were no WMD's that were in even remotely deployable condition at that time.

That's correct, in fact, according to The Downing-Street Memo in which it was stated that Iraq was no greater a threat to any nation in the area.

Quote:
I find it difficult to defend such an action as "defending our freedoms" when the same administration also tried to suspend the rights to freedom of speech, due process and trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment.

Exactly -- We're defending our freedoms by obliterating them.

Quote:
"Freedom" and "liberty" are words with definitions; they should not be turned into weapons of power and control. Nonetheless, when abused, "freedom" and "liberty" become just as horrible as the words "Aryan," "Motherland," and "Jihad." And, lest we forget, there are countries in the world, including France, Spain, the Netherlands, and Canada that afford their citizens more freedoms and rights than the U.S. does.

That's pretty much correct. They simply become emotionally charged words to manipulate people.


Blackbird
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:04 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 43):
Quote:
For those of you who speak of "defending our freedoms," I would implore you to use some critical reasoning. That sort of talk is the bombastic puffed-up fruppery of a despot military dictator.

That's right, however not too many people seem to get this point.

Tell that to the 3,000 victims of 9/11!! To them that threat is all too real, or perhaps you can ask the 2 Americans who just died in Pakistan. It's foolish you are commenting about the puffed-up whatever from the comfort of your home.

When it strikes too close to home, you'll be the first to demand why you weren't kept safe by the very government you claim is overstepping its bounds.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 43):
uote:
"Freedom" and "liberty" are words with definitions; they should not be turned into weapons of power and control. Nonetheless, when abused, "freedom" and "liberty" become just as horrible as the words "Aryan," "Motherland," and "Jihad." And, lest we forget, there are countries in the world, including France, Spain, the Netherlands, and Canada that afford their citizens more freedoms and rights than the U.S. does.

I take it you've missed the widespread use of CCTV's in European countries?

Here's a tidbit about Spain:
"
Spain's anti-terror laws permit the use of incommunicado detention, secret legal proceedings, and pre-trial detention for up to four years. The proceedings governing the detentions of suspected al-Qaeda operatives apprehended in Spain in November 2001, July 2002, and January 2003, among others, have been declared secret (causa secreta). The investigating magistrate of the Audiencia Nacional, a special court that oversees terrorist cases, can request causa secreta for thirty days, consecutively renewable for the duration of the four-year pre-trial detention period. Secret proceedings bar the defense access to the prosecutor's evidence, except for information contained in the initial detention order. Without access to this evidence, detainees are severely hampered in mounting an adequate defense."

http://www.hrw.org/un/chr59/counter-terrorism-bck4.htm#P306_71146

And The Netherlands:

"A majority in the Dutch parliament has just voted for controversial measures which will allow for people to be banned from certain areas, or mean they will have to report to the police at specified times. This, despite the fact that they have committed no crime."

Plus they have broad wiretapping and surveillance laws

http://www.expatica.com/nl/life_in/f...-brnew-anti-terror-laws-37991.html


I love how so called white Americans are harping about "their" rights when they are the least likely to have their "rights'' taken away. It's the people of South AsianMiddle Eastern decent who get pulled out of airport lines for an extra search.

I've lived here for 25 yrs. No one has ever bothered me, no policeman, no FBI agent, and certainly not any part of the American Security Apparatus.

For all this fear mongering about the government: seriously get over it...
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:35 am

Sv7887,

Quote:
Tell that to the 3,000 victims of 9/11!! To them that threat is all too real, or perhaps you can ask the 2 Americans who just died in Pakistan. It's foolish you are commenting about the puffed-up whatever from the comfort of your home.

Bush had ample warning there was going to be a terror-attack, and either through incompetence, or deliberate-action allowed them to occur. It's my opinion that the second is the case, but in either case incompetence is not a good thing either (Admiral Kimmel was relieved of command after Pearl Harbor)

Had there been a reasonably (meaning not an administration meeting obscenely high standards, just normal ones) competent leadership, or at least leadership not willing to exploit an upcoming tragedy to further it's mission, the terrorists probably would have been stopped.

Quote:
When it strikes too close to home, you'll be the first to demand why you weren't kept safe by the very government you claim is overstepping its bounds.

Look, we all die. After 9/11 I've come to realize this, not that I would try to stop a tragedy that I knew was going to kill me or loads of other people, but inevitably something is going to kill us all. There's only so far you can delay the inevitable and in those cases we try so, within reason.

I believe we should aim to improve the quality of life and leave the Earth better than it was when we were born: Would you rather live your life with a lot of freedom? Or would you rather live your life with none at all?

Quote:
I take it you've missed the widespread use of CCTV's in European countries?

Oh, I'm quite aware of this, and I do not approve of the rampant use of them for the record.

Quote:
Here's a tidbit about Spain:
"
Spain's anti-terror laws permit the use of incommunicado detention, secret legal proceedings, and pre-trial detention for up to four years. The proceedings governing the detentions of suspected al-Qaeda operatives apprehended in Spain in November 2001, July 2002, and January 2003, among others, have been declared secret (causa secreta). The investigating magistrate of the Audiencia Nacional, a special court that oversees terrorist cases, can request causa secreta for thirty days, consecutively renewable for the duration of the four-year pre-trial detention period. Secret proceedings bar the defense access to the prosecutor's evidence, except for information contained in the initial detention order. Without access to this evidence, detainees are severely hampered in mounting an adequate defense."

http://www.hrw.org/un/chr59/counter-terrorism-bck4.htm#P306_71146

And you honestly approve of these measures?

Quote:
I've lived here for 25 yrs. No one has ever bothered me, no policeman, no FBI agent, and certainly not any part of the American Security Apparatus.

For all this fear mongering about the government: seriously get over it...

Oh, so because you haven't been a victim of the American Security Apparatus, that means nobody else is or ever will be. You know that's very good logic there.

You know, I remember hearing a quote from a Lutheran Minister who said something of the effect of
"First they came for the communists, but I did not care since I was not a communist,
Then they came for the Jews, but I did not care because I was not Jewish,
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me"


Blackbird
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:03 am



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 42):
Some folks think "pull and pray" is a good contraception method.

Hey, It worked once!  blockhead 

 Wink
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:54 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 29):
My time spent in England I noticed almost every small town had a memorial of a Tommy standing on a column with names of the dead which sometimes numbered in the hundreds from WW1 , it almost makes you wonder where they found the manpower for WW2.



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 30):
The Casualty Lists in the Scottish War Memorial at Edinburgh Castle were very sobering...so many Camerons, MacDonalds, Campbells, etc. Fort William has just the kind of monument that you mentioned.

Glad that other people have noticed that - and if you ever come to Australia you'll see the same thing, not just in big-city places like the Shrine in St. Kilda Road, but also in the smallest of outback towns. In fairness though, plenty of American graves in places like Papua New Guinea and Guadalcanal......

I think myself that, sooner or later, the US public is going to have to realise that 'projecting' military power across the whole world isn't just a matter of 'Wham Bang Thank You Ma'am' air power, or eyeless cruise missiles. They are OK for killing a few people - moslty innocent civilians - but at the end of the day it comes down to infantry - 'boots on the ground' - to occupy and subdue places. Even in my lifetime, there were upwards of 400,000 troops (mostly American and British) stationed in West Germany alone - and hundreds of thousands more in other parts of the world.

Failure to put in adequate resources just results in stalemate. Stalemate at BEST. It looks as if a 'stalemate' has been achieved in Iraq - for the time being, anyway - until the elections. But Afghanistan isn't any sort of 'stalemate' - 'we' - Australia's got itself mixed up in Afghanistan too - are definilety big-time losing there.

So I don't expect that Bush, or Obama, or McCain, will have the guts to set up a draft. But that - plus paying out the billions for all the equipment the conscripts will need - is the only alternative.

If we want to go on telling most of the rest of the world to do what WE say.....
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
fridgmus
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
On the other hand, all WW2 armies were made up out of draftees (on both sides). The majority of the draftees turned out to have a fully professional attitude towards their tasks.

I agree with you there Jan, but those were very different times my friend, very different.

Marc
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cgnnrw
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RE: The Draft Is Coming Back (Or At Least Some Folks Think It Is).....

Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:11 pm

Two issues need to be cleared up before the draft is re-instated:

1) what about women? women are serving in all areas of the military. Will they be included?

2) what about "don't ask, don't tell". The Armed Forces are going to have to deal with this issue some day whether they like it or not.

just my two cents...
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