HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:08 am

I just want to test A.netters on the knowledge of history, pertaining to the evolution of Human rights and democracy..... Where did it start and where did it come from.....



I think it will be a surprise to many of you...  Smile



Lets begin the theories
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:36 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 1):
I have no idea.

Think B.C.E.... Hint.... Alexander the great respected and learned most of his ways, philosophies from leaders (especially one great one) of this region... The first great empire, and instituted it into what is officially and largely incorrectly known as the first democracy, Greece....
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 2):
Alexander the great respected and learned most of his ways, philosophies from leaders (especially one great one) of this region... The first great empire, and instituted it into what is officially and largely incorrectly known as the first democracy, Greece....

Greece wasn't a nation state back then, but in it was a territory that is arguably the cradle of democracy: the Polis of Athens. However, Alexander the Great had precious little to do with the development of democracy.

I'd be interested to hear why you say that Greece is "incorrectly known" as the first democracy. True, there were more limitations to the suffrage, but even today we are far from truly universal suffrage, even if people can come up with all sorts of arguments why certain groups of people should not be allowed to vote or be elected.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:04 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 3):
Greece wasn't a nation state back then, but in it was a territory that is arguably the cradle of democracy

It was a territory of cities individually governed... I know this, but I did not want to get into too much detail.


What my question was, is where did the 'cradle of democracy' come from. Those ideals... They did not originate from Marathon or Athens....


I am interested in peoples theories...
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 4):
What my question was, is where did the 'cradle of democracy' come from. Those ideals... They did not originate from Marathon or Athens....

Your question is actually extremely vague. Too vague to make much sense.

In Athens, democracy was, at first, more of a pragmatic approach to constitutional challenges than an "ideal." However, most historians agree that Athens was the birthplace of democracy; even the word is Greek. However, then there are those that follow Fadinger's school of thought were absolutely every fart anyone in the Greco-Roman world ever passed was just copying a Middle Eastern example.

And then there are those who tend to point at similar practices in pre-civilised societies, but fail to neglect that the whole concept of constitutional thought was lacking, and that, often, there is no continuity of tradition between those pre-civilised societies, the Greco-Roman world and the modern Western world, along which this democracy could have developed.

Our democracy traces back to Athens. If you believe there are other, earlier examples, you may argue similarity, but the example that the Western world followed was that of Athens. Others weren't taken notice of.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:47 am

Oh... it *was* Ancient Greece?

I thought it was going to be some trick question or was going to be so obscure that I wouldn't know...


Blackbird
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:58 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 5):
Your question is actually extremely vague. Too vague to make much sense.

Herein lays the answer.... History is not precise, it is vague... Otherwise there would be no room for debate or no reason for intrigue....

Henceforth, I was asking for a debate, not a factual answer...

So I do not keep on beating around the proverbial bush on this topic… I believe, the core of democracy human rights, religious tolerance started with Cyrus the Great… The builder of Persia…The Founding fathers of the United States wrote the constitution in an almost Xerox copy of the Tomes of Cyrus…


Herein lays the Irony…. The Western Civilization and its laws and morals, rights and freedoms originate from a place that is now considered evil by the western world.

So to put the irony into a simple package…. We have Iraq (Persia) to thank for all of the freedoms that we have in the western world… More specifically, Cyrus the Great.
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
We have Iraq (Persia)

Well done, you have managed to insult two countries in one sentence - Iran is nowadays' Persia, Iraq is roughly built along the lines of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which were the lifeblood of Babylon.

Additionally, Iranians are not ethnic Arabs. Never were. Iraqis are ethnic Arabs, except for the Kurds.

 Smile
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:03 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6):
I thought it was going to be some trick question or was going to be so obscure that I wouldn't know...

LOL, it was...  Smile so consider yourself tricked  Smile
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:06 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
So I do not keep on beating around the proverbial bush on this topic… I believe, the core of democracy human rights, religious tolerance started with Cyrus the Great… The builder of Persia…The Founding fathers of the United States wrote the constitution in an almost Xerox copy of the Tomes of Cyrus…


Herein lays the Irony…. The Western Civilization and its laws and morals, rights and freedoms originate from a place that is now considered evil by the western world.

So to put the irony into a simple package…. We have Iraq (Persia) to thank for all of the freedoms that we have in the western world… More specifically, Cyrus the Great.

NO!! Not Cyrus: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,566027,00.html

Not only did human rights and democracy develop separately, so your initial question really didn't make much sense, but you can't honestly credit Cyrus with inventing Human Rights.

As far as democracy goes, I have made my point - maybe not quite clear enough. Even if you formulate earlier demonstrations of similar principles, the Athenians developed "their" democracy independently, and the Western world adopted (and adapted and improved) the Athenian model.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:07 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 8):
Well done, you have managed to insult two countries in one sentence

It was not intentional... Sad... But do elaborate further... Persia converged over a great expanse of territory, I did not mention any cultures or races...


How did I insult two countries? Seriosly though.....I think your comment is just plain silly....
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:12 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
History is not precise, it is vague

And that's a terrible statement, too. History may not be always clear-cut, but it's not vague - just in need of interpretation. For interpretation to be useful, the questions asked of history must be specific and precise.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:15 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):
Not only did human rights and democracy develop separately, so your initial question really didn't make much sense, but you can't honestly credit Cyrus with inventing Human Rights.

Yes I can, and I can do so by backing it up with facts... He was the FIRST documented leader that refused to take slaves, and instead created a work force which was paid accordingly to skill (so also the first to create a real economic environment). Every land that he took over he did not rape, plunder or pllage, he was a liberator that freed slaves... He freed the Jews from Babylon and all of the other slaves and made them into paid citizens....


If this does not make much sense to you I suggest further study the history of Cyrus.


Alexander the great modeled himself after Cyrus, from military tactics to social and economical policies. Alexander even considered himself a king of Persia.

While I cant credit him with just human rights, I credit him with Human and Religious Rights.
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:16 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 12):
the questions asked of history must be specific and precise.

The question yes, but we should never be arrogant enough to think the same of our answers...
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:22 am

Besides, many historians now argue that Solon laid the foundation for Athenian democracy (though he did not quite create what later scholars such as Aristotle considered Athenian democracy to be). Solon was before Cyrus.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:27 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 13):
If this does not make much sense to you I suggest further study the history of Cyrus.

I take it you didn't bother read the link I posted.
 Yeah sure

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 14):
but we should never be arrogant enough to think the same of our answers...

While I don't even agree with that statement ("arrogant" does not do to describe thorough research), you used that as an excuse for asking a vague question.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:36 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
While I don't even agree with that statement ("arrogant" does not do to describe thorough research), you used that as an excuse for asking a vague question.

Arrogant is why history and archeology can not move forward... Old schools of thought that are terrified of losing their theories at the cost of history....

So yes my friend, history is vague and open to interpretation.... If we cannot identify Jesus as a fact, or the Sphinx date of origin, how can anyone we be arrogant enough to say anything before those supposed dates is a fact?

Arrogance is what makes history vague, instead of an adventurous journey.... Or, the ego of many scholars that do not want to have their life's work redefined.

Many a good historian has been defamed for his/her alternative theories...
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:44 am

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
I take it you didn't bother read the link I posted.
And i think that the opinions that make this great leader into a tyrant might have their own bias.

No western scholar wants to attribute his rights and freedoms to origins of the east... Hence, Greece is considered the beginning of western civilization... Which not at all correct.

Regardless, that tablet is at the entrance to the United Nations to remind all of what Human Rights are.... And to tell them that it was Cyrus that started it all.....(although it is a replica, but a damn good one)

[Edited 2008-09-30 20:49:54]
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:59 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Thread starter):
Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin  

Democracy is rule of the majority. It has nothing to do with human rights. Human rights are supposed to be considered inviolable, which is not the case when you can pass anything with a vote. This is why we rely on the rule of law and have constitutions.

Democracy = Rule of the People (people determine the use of force)

Republic = Rule of Law (the law, not people, determine the use of force)

Rights are more associated with the rule of law, and have been developed and built upon over the centuries by many philosophers of different countries. No one cradle, though the U.S. was probably the first "complete" package, so to speak.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:06 am

The Magna Carta Libertatum, its full name, is particularly important.

"For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."
-Thomas Paine
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:10 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Democracy is rule of the majority. It has nothing to do with human rights. Human rights are supposed to be considered inviolable, which is not the case when you can pass anything with a vote. This is why we rely on the rule of law and have constitutions.

Democracy = Rule of the People (people determine the use of force)

Republic = Rule of Law (the law, not people, determine the use of force)

Rights are more associated with the rule of law, and have been developed and built upon over the centuries by many philosophers of different countries. No one cradle, though the U.S. was probably the first "complete" package, so to speak.

Wow!!! thanks for that lesson! I must have been at my local university pub instead of being in class that day when they were supposed to teach me that critical information......

And no, the US was not the first 'complete package', and arguable is no where near that today......  Smile


Arguably, no closer is any other nation.


Oh, BTW, in your own definitions of 'democracy' you are no closer to correct than GWB was on the status of WMD;s..... People do not determine the use of force, they elect the moron that does what ever he feels will (insert anything you want)

Democracy is still in its infantile stages in my personal opinion.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:41 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 21):

And no, the US was not the first 'complete package', and arguable is no where near that today......

Well definitely yes for the second part, and I suppose you could argue the first part. Rome was the first Republic, though the concepts of rights were still relatively in their infancy. Obviously, once under Caeser and others that went completely out the window.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 21):
People do not determine the use of force, they elect the moron that does what ever he feels will (insert anything you want)

Well, normally only the courts can enforce anything, so you have that judicial review thing. Today, however, seems like we have moved away from that quite a bit. Politicians tend to ignore the rule of law, and remember they often get to appoint the judges that agree with them. Not a perfect system by any means.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:45 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 11):
How did I insult two countries? Seriosly though.....I think your comment is just plain silly....

How you insulted two countries? By mixing them up pretty badly, that's how. It's like me saying "oh yes, Canada, that's where they had that war of independence back in the 1700s".

No, my comment is not silly at all. It is a fact - when you mix up two very distinct cultural and ethnic entities such as Iran and Iraq, you offend their respective members. More specifically so when you try to link them to concepts as polarising and hard to define as democracy and human rights. Nothing new here.  Smile

It has nothing to do with the expense of territory covered by Persia 3000 years ago. Today, Iran and Iraq are two VERY different countries, who incidentally were at (a supremely bloody) war twenty years ago.

 Smile
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:46 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
Not a perfect system by any means.

We agree on something  Smile

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
Home | Photos | Forums | News | Articles | Advertise | Aircraft Data | Search | Community | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Partner Sites: Aviation Videos | Aviation Photo Gallery | Answerbag | How To Videos | How To Articles

©Copyright 2008 Demand Media, Inc. All Rights Reserved
32



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 21):
! I must have been at my local university pub instead of being in class that day when they were supposed to teach me that critical information

And BTW, I did not mean that to be insulting... That is how I remeber university.... I cant really recall any of the classes...  Smile lol.... I did learn more at the pub than I did in the lecture halls.. The good ole days..... lol
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:54 am

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 24):
No, my comment is not silly at all. It is a fact - when you mix up two very distinct cultural and ethnic entities such as Iran and Iraq, you offend their respective members. More specifically so when you try to link them to concepts as polarising and hard to define as democracy and human rights. Nothing new here.

It has nothing to do with the expense of territory covered by Persia 3000 years ago. Today, Iran and Iraq are two VERY different countries, who incidentally were at (a supremely bloody) war twenty years ago.

I was stating 'Modern day Iraq and Iran' When you go back 2500 years you will find that they were Persia....

What is missing here.... Do you want me to FedEx you a book on Persian history? You pay the duty fees and I will send you the book pro bono in the interest of preserving culture and the awareness of human history......

The history of that region predates Iran or Iraq by thousands of years..... And so many modern day states are the remains of what was the great Persian Empire.


Just so everyone knows, I'm a Polak so there is no patriotic view/bias here  Smile

[Edited 2008-09-30 21:58:35]
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:55 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):

A Republic doesn't mean you even have to have elections. Elections, though, are generally still seen as the best mechanism in electing politicians, however flawed it may be.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 25):
nd BTW, I did not mean that to be insulting... That is how I remeber university.... I cant really recall any of the classes...   lol.... I did learn more at the pub than I did in the lecture halls.. The good ole days..... lol

No problem at all. I learned this stuff mostly on my own, though the subject was in one chapter in one of my textbooks, but my professor skimmed over it. I doubt anyone in that class remembers anything.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:56 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
I learned this stuff mostly on my own

Good to hear there are some curious minds left in this world  Smile (it is well to seldom now a days)



Cheers!
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:29 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 27):

You wrote:

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
We have Iraq (Persia) to thank

Which is wrong. As evidenced by:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 27):
When you go back 2500 years you will find that they were Persia....

Except "Iraq" did not exist 2500 years ago.

Or in which case I could say that Poland and France are the same country, since Napoléon conquered it in the early 1800s.  Smile
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:37 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
The Founding fathers of the United States wrote the constitution in an almost Xerox copy of the Tomes of Cyrus…

I always thought they Xeroxed Montesqieu...

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:51 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 17):
If we cannot identify Jesus as a fact

??? What scholars seriously argue against the fact that once upon a time there was a man by that name walking the face of the Earth? The scientific argument is that he was not the son of an all powerful higher being.

If you apply scientific and academic rules, then the contemporary evidence is not sufficient to declare him a deity, or son of one. If you apply theological rules, the result may be different. In other words, this is not an historical argument, it's a religious one. Please don't confuse the two, it's annoying enough that my boss does it all the time.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 17):
history is vague

Now you're beginning to contradict yourself, as earlier you admitted that vague was not a suitable adjective to describe history.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Democracy is rule of the majority. It has nothing to do with human rights. Human rights are supposed to be considered inviolable, which is not the case when you can pass anything with a vote. This is why we rely on the rule of law and have constitutions.

Democracy = Rule of the People (people determine the use of force)

Republic = Rule of Law (the law, not people, determine the use of force)

Yes and no.

A DEMOCRACY is a system where the part of the citizens to whom the suffrage is extended influences the political process, typically by majority decisions. However, a crucial element of a democracy is that the entire body politic, whether it agrees or disagrees, is guaranteed the rights and privileges that the country extends to its citizens. Supposedly, it's a "good" government.

A system in which a majority calls the shots (the suffrage is still extended to pretty much the same group as above), but ignores the minority's (even if that minority amounts to 49.999% of the body politic) welfare would be an ochlocracy - a "rule of the mob."

[Please note: I use these terms along the lines established by the ancient philosopher Polybios, as his terminology is closest to the way we still interpret government today. There were other, earlier scholars who were more critical of democracy, and used that term to describe the "bad" form, but then they would have used a different term for the "good" form.]

A republic is simply a form of government without a monarch at the top of the state. It has very little to do with democracy, rule of law, or human rights. For example, these are republics: Cuba, Iran, China, and Iraq - both now and under Saddam Hussein. These are republics, too: USA, Germany, Brazil. Many differences, few commonalities, I'd say.

Now, the United Kingdom may not be a republic, for it is a monarchy (as are the Netherlands or Sweden...), but not too many people on this board will seriously argue that these countries aren't democratic or that they don't have a rule of law.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 21):
I must have been at my local university pub instead of being in class that day when they were supposed to teach me that critical information......

It shows.

The University of Heidelberg is arguably one of Germany's leading universities, and its history programme has a solid reputation.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 17):
Arrogant is why history and archeology can not move forward...

It's moving quite nicely. You are beginning to sound like David Maurer (http://www.historyexplained.com/), who made a complete [insert-different-word-for-donkey-here] out of himself at a historians' conference earlier this year.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:54 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 29):
Or in which case I could say that Poland and France are the same country, since Napoléon conquered it in the early 1800s.

Well... I was tempted to use Germany as a comparison, but the concept is the same.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
PacNWjet
Posts: 809
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:49 pm

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
Herein lays the Irony…. The Western Civilization and its laws and morals, rights and freedoms originate from a place that is now considered evil by the western world.

The Western world now considers ancient Persia evil? Your assertion is illogical. The present situation in what currently is known in Iran is not equivalent with ancient Persia. If A approves of B, and if B is not the same thing as C, then it is not ironic if A does not approve of C if C is not the same thing as B.

[Edited 2008-10-01 08:57:39]

[Edited 2008-10-01 08:58:08]
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:10 pm



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 29):
Which is wrong. As evidenced by:

I meant Iraq (Used to be part of the Persian Empire) which it was. I also said that it used to be and not that Iraq is currently Persian..... You are really pushing to prove something man, I told you what I meant. GET OFF OF IT! Accept it and stop the persisting annoyance!

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 31):
It's moving quite nicely.



You are so closed minded it makes me shudder!

You are really sounding like a stubborn set in your ways guy.... This was meant to be a pleasant debate, and you really are an ass with your comments..

You and others are hostile in your words, and instead of debating with pleasure you feel the need to show your knowledge and debate the opposite. regardless of who is right debates are meant to float around information and think about what you have just heard... Not to yell NO!!! and somehow still consider yourself in someway an intelligent thinking person.


When I brought up my theory about Cyrus, your simple answer was and I quote "NO!!" which is quite sad, and then you gave me a crappy link which was a very very very bad source of information. Seems to me like you never heard of Cyrus until you googled it after I started this thread.

Just because someone educated (school or self) does not make them intelligent, and definately not curious or humble. And certainly many people here lack a few of those highly valuable traits, and any courtesy for that matter...

I just have to say, that what I thought would be an enjoyable thread has turned into another argument (hey look what I know, Your wrong!!!) A.netters are really starting to sound like little girls in hissy fits, its getting pathetic, does NO ONE HERE HAVE ANY CLASS??? How were you all raised for Gods sake!...Your like stray rabid dogs in utter desperation mark their territory, at the cost of insulting, insinuating false things and being just plain asses.

Here in Toronto people are friendly and open to a calm debate, I will leave any of my curiosities for friends to debate with....No use to do it here on A.net anymore......Who would have thought a multi national site that draws in thousands of members from around the world because of one common interest and passion in aviation, would be so unpleasant to spend time on.

And a quick lesson in debating, If someone says something that you, through your knowlege consider to be false, dont be pathetic and say 'NO' or tell them they are wrong, or your right.. You can say "I actually read about that same topic, and I learned something else, here is my source" and you end off sounding polite and intelligent.... LEARN IT PEOPLE! Stop stroking your damn ego's......

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 31):
A DEMOCRACY is

Wow, thanks for your solid and useless answer, and your self righteousness.....The thread was about where it came from, not what it is!!!!

And what it is still has different meanings for different people. And not one of them is incorrect. Even in an encyclopedia the term democracy will be different in another encyclopedia


Rant Over!
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:06 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 5):
Our democracy traces back to Athens. If you believe there are other, earlier examples, you may argue similarity, but the example that the Western world followed was that of Athens. Others weren't taken notice of.

There is a bit of contradiction even in Athens. As a system of government, they believed in democratic ideals, open debate and discussion. It was effective by and large from a practical standpoint, but there is a critical distinction to be drawn that makes it different from the United States and our own ideals.

The Greeks still had a caste system and had a hierarchy of birthright (largely anyhow) that didn’t recognize individual rights as a cornerstone of the larger system of government. That truly (if you don’t split hairs too awful much) didn’t happen until the Enlightenment really.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
No one cradle, though the U.S. was probably the first "complete" package, so to speak.

I believe you to be correct in stating this. Our Founders married the basic fundaments of the ancient Greeks (Tacitus, Cicero and others), the debate and oratorical methods and principles of voting with the concepts of the Enlightenment (Locke, Rousseau, et al) and combined both the humanist philosophies of thought and theological notions of right being God given into what we have today (er, had anyhow and should have, but that’s a different rant altogether).

The remarkable thing is that such an experiment of that scale and magnitude had never been accomplished successfully in human history. The idea that governments are needed to help provide order but that the order is explicitly granted by people and their rights come not from man, but from God, is a staggeringly underappreciated concept today. Our lack of basic appreciation of this, not to mention failure to act as responsible citizens that are actively engaged in the very government we are supposed to be a participant in, is why the republic now suffers.
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:28 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
There is a bit of contradiction even in Athens.

You are absolutely correct here (the "caste system" we can argue about, however... at least if we look at the various eras in Athenian history  Wink). I meant to say, and failed to emphasise, that democracy has always been a work in progress and that the system, its interpretation and its implementation underwent many changes. Nonetheless, the beginning of this development traces back to Athens.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 35):
.The thread was about where it came from, not what it is!!!!

I thought it might be useful to establish what certain Greek scholars thought the term meant, to then look for where and when it began.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 35):
When I brought up my theory about Cyrus, your simple answer was and I quote "NO!!" which is quite sad, and then you gave me a crappy link which was a very very very bad source of information. Seems to me like you never heard of Cyrus until you googled it after I started this thread.

The article come's from Germany's leading news website, and the printed version of "Der Spiegel" is still Germany's leading weekly news magazine (as opposed to "Die Zeit," which isn't really a "magazine"). The article quotes respected scholars, amongst them a professor from the University of Heidelberg, an institution most academics have heard of and respect highly. It further outlines, how the Persian Shah's regime as well as the modern-day Iranian regime distort Cyrus legacy for propagandistic reasons. The article convincingly rebuts your view of history. Useless?

You are right that I used Google to locate this article; not because I had never heard of Cyrus before, but rather because I remembered reading it a few months ago (article dates back to July 15 of this year). I dare say that it would take more than 8 minutes (timespan between your post regarding Cyrus and my reply) to find this particular document if one had to read up on Cyrus and the Persian Empire on Wikipedia first...

Maybe my posting of the link could've been more eloquent. I thought, however, that I did get the point across that I disagreed with you, and furthermore referenced additional material as to why I disagree. Something you have not done.

Finally, you should have the good grace to acknowledge that Ancient Persia may have ruled over present-day Iraq, but that that territory was a conquered territory, and that the heartland of Persia was modern-day Iran. You wouldn't credit the Tunisians for Julius Caesar's accomplishments (or blame them for his shortcomings), just because, 2,000 years ago, the Romans ruled over what used to be Carthage and is now Tunisia. You got some facts confused, WunalaYann pointed it out.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 35):
I just have to say, that what I thought would be an enjoyable thread has turned into another argument (hey look what I know, Your wrong!!!) A.netters are really starting to sound like little girls in hissy fits, its getting pathetic, does NO ONE HERE HAVE ANY CLASS??? How were you all raised for Gods sake!...Your like stray rabid dogs in utter desperation mark their territory, at the cost of insulting, insinuating false things and being just plain asses.

As I am in no mood to be throwing hissy fits, I will now retire from this "debate," as you seem to be incapable of remaining civil when your view doesn't meet with agreement.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:58 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 35):
Nonetheless, the beginning of this development traces back to Athens.

I would say it does as well—your points are valid though that it’s not happened without peril. Even in the later stages of the Peloponnesian War, Athen enacted what is essentially martial law and took then-unprecedented steps in terms of making policy decisions that violated the will of the people. And they had political leaders that were also generals…their success was determined by winning in battle. Thankfully, we have seen a separation of the role in modern Western nations. Another sign of the maturity of how the US in its origins intentionally separated things.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 36):
I recommend that the Mods close this Thread.... It has gone nowhere useful......

I disagree…I think this is a terribly thought-provoking thread if approached properly.
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:55 pm



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 33):
You are really pushing to prove something man, I told you what I meant. GET OFF OF IT! Accept it and stop the persisting annoyance!

Sure, whatever. Can't stand being proven wrong, hey? Don't start threads, then.

 Smile

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 33):
I just have to say, that what I thought would be an enjoyable thread has turned into another argument (hey look what I know, Your wrong!!!) A.netters are really starting to sound like little girls in hissy fits, its getting pathetic, does NO ONE HERE HAVE ANY CLASS??? How were you all raised for Gods sake!...Your like stray rabid dogs in utter desperation mark their territory, at the cost of insulting, insinuating false things and being just plain asses.

Who's throwing a tantrum now?  eyebrow 
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:22 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 29):

There are infinite definitions of democracy, but in general, it is the decision making by vote, not by any single ruling principle attached.

Rule of the mob and majority rule are interchangeable terms, which have always ended up in some form of tyranny of the majority.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 29):

A republic is simply a form of government without a monarch at the top of the state. It has very little to do with democracy, rule of law, or human rights. For example, these are republics: Cuba, Iran, China, and Iraq - both now and under Saddam Hussein. These are republics, too: USA, Germany, Brazil. Many differences, few commonalities, I'd say.

The rule of law means simply that no one is above the law. No monarch, no political body, no citizen.



And as you can see, just because Cuba may have the term "Republic" in the title of the nation, it is nothing but a label. You can't have someone who dictates what the law of the land is and call it rule of law.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 29):


Now, the United Kingdom may not be a republic, for it is a monarchy (as are the Netherlands or Sweden...), but not too many people on this board will seriously argue that these countries aren't democratic or that they don't have a rule of law.

Indeed, but the rule of law is not dependent on democracy. You don't have to have elections for it to exist, though you would be completely dependent on a single person or entity acting responsibly with no system of accountability.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:29 pm

PPVRA,

Did you obtain this great map from Transparency International? Or is it the CIA factbook?

Thanks for any info, I find it really telling.  Smile
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:04 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 40):

Did you obtain this great map from Transparency International? Or is it the CIA factbook?

Wikipedia Big grin

Some googling led me to the World Bank:
http://info.worldbank.org/governance/wgi/worldmap.asp
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:10 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 41):
Wikipedia

Ah, same level of proficiency!!  Wink

But thank you for the information. I browsed Transparency International but their rankings include a variety of factors beyond the rule of law (corruption being of course their battleground of choice). But you will not be surprised to see that their maps are almost exact copy-pastes of yours in terms of the usual suspects!  biggrin 
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:24 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
The rule of law means simply that no one is above the law. No monarch, no political body, no citizen.

I never contested that. I just find it disturbing that more and more people use "rule of law" synonymous with "republic" just because some online encyclopaedia write-up uses "rule of law" to describe "republicanISM" (not republic... at least not last time I checked when my students copied and pasted from there.).

To repeat where I am coming from:

1. Republic describes a form of state ("res publica" = "the public affairs" - the term was coined when the Roman state became a public matter after the Roman kings were ousted). It will usually have a president as head of state, whereas non-republics are headed by monarchs. It says nothing about the form of government.

2. Democracy describes a form of government. The eligible citizens are - in one way or another - involved in the political process.

3.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
The rule of law means simply that no one is above the law. No monarch, no political body, no citizen.

Absolutely correct. But this describes neither the form of state nor the form of government - just its "quality."

As far as the map goes, I disagree with it in numerous points, but - hey - it's from Wikipedia... so what to expect...

Anyways, after breaking my promise once, I shall be out of here now; I just thought I owed you a clarification of my points, for your post actually demonstrated how to debate...  Wink

[edited to sound a little more civilised. hope it worked.]

[Edited 2008-10-01 17:32:55]
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:44 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 43):
"res publica" = "the public affairs"

i.e., the law.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 43):
But this describes neither the form of state nor the form of government - just its "quality."

It doesn't describe the form, but it does say that the law rules.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 43):
"rule of law" to describe "republicanISM"

Just making sure: this has nothing to do with U.S. politics. The Republican Party doesn't completely respect the Rule of Law, neither are Democrats all against the Rule of Law.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:57 am

OK... Here's someone who's actually fun to argue with, I've had a few glasses and I'm waiting to meet some friends in an hour, so...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
i.e., the law.

The "public affairs" are a lot more than the law. Unless you define the law extremely broad on the one hand, encompassing all aspects of society, but very narrow on the other hand, as in saying nothing about civic liberties and human rights, e.g. Hitler's government did not really violate its own laws...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
The Republican Party doesn't completely respect the Rule of Law, neither are Democrats all against the Rule of Law.

100% agree. US political terms are soooo abused, it's not even funny. Just look at the American "meaning" (almost derogatory) of the word "liberal" vs. the literal meaning of the word, which would probably place the Republicans firmly in the liberal corner.

Still, a "republic" is not necessarily ruled by law - or certainly not by benevolent laws. Cuba, Iran, China are all republics, and not just in name only.

However, these republics are not democracies, havens of human rights, nor do their governments usually respect their own laws much.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
The Republican Party doesn't completely respect the Rule of Law

"Completely" may well be an understatement, which is one reason why I would question that map.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:35 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
I think this is a terribly thought-provoking thread if approached properly.

I agree 100% But then look at the arrogant poster that is the pinnacle of ruining discussions and open debates.... It is hard to carry on a debate with such arrogant close minded people that are not willing to enjoyable have a conversation, but just want to prove to themselves righthousness and spank their ego..... Look below and you should understand.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 38):
Sure, whatever. Can't stand being proven wrong, hey?

The pursuit of truth in history is not about the ego, and being able to prove someone wrong.... It is about being able to uncover the wonders of our past without bias. I will never have a problem with being proven wrong, I have a problem with the people that write history with that agenda, to prove something that is not beyond themselves.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:50 am

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 45):

The "public affairs" are a lot more than the law. Unless you define the law extremely broad on the one hand, encompassing all aspects of society, but very narrow on the other hand, as in saying nothing about civic liberties and human rights, e.g. Hitler's government did not really violate its own laws...

To the first point, not many aspects of life are touched by the government without a law behind it. I'm not sure there are any--legitimate anyways. As for civil liberties, indeed, but the law is about justice, which means rights as well.*

Hitler was more in the "I am the law" camp. He was definitely a big fan of Machiavelli.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 45):
Just look at the American "meaning" (almost derogatory) of the word "liberal" vs. the literal meaning of the word, which would probably place the Republicans firmly in the liberal corner.

Yes indeed! Though some of the ideas about gay marriage and a few other things would not make it to the liberal list.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 45):


Still, a "republic" is not necessarily ruled by law - or certainly not by benevolent laws. Cuba, Iran, China are all republics, and not just in name only.

"Lao People's Democratic Republic" is neither very Republican nor Democratic  

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 45):
However, these republics are not democracies, havens of human rights, nor do their governments usually respect their own laws much.

Unfortunately, laws can and often are corrupted, usually for the benefit of one over another. This goes hand in hand with what I said above too*.


Btw, I noticed the link I posted above isn't working, so here's another try:
http://info.worldbank.org/governance.../worldmap_start.asp?allcountries=1
(select indicator Rule of Law)

[Edited 2008-10-01 18:59:43]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 46):
The pursuit of truth in history is not about the ego, and being able to prove someone wrong.... It is about being able to uncover the wonders of our past without bias. I will never have a problem with being proven wrong, I have a problem with the people that write history with that agenda, to prove something that is not beyond themselves.

I actually agree with everything you said.  checkmark 

And I hope you will be able to convince more people of the benefits a society could get by adopting a more open-minded stance towards the past, and its mistakes.

 Smile
 
HapppyLandings
Topic Author
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:32 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 48):
I actually agree with everything you said.

And I hope you will be able to convince more people of the benefits a society could get by adopting a more open-minded stance towards the past, and its mistakes.

I am very pleasantly surprised by your response! Thank you for your openness and welcome to my RU list.

And If I said anything insulting I apologize... I have been surprised by two members on this site in one day, just when I was losing hope in A.Net as a forum of good debate..... I hope this becomes a continuing trend on this site....  Smile
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:48 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
Btw, I noticed the link I posted above isn't working, so here's another try:

Obrigado!! It is actually brilliant!!  Smile

One will notice the African country no one ever talks about that is actually doing a commendable job of sanitising its economic and social governance - Botswana!

I hope they continue on that path, as they have been a model of stability since their independence.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin

Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:25 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
One will notice the African country no one ever talks about that is actually doing a commendable job of sanitising its economic and social governance - Botswana!

I hope they continue on that path, as they have been a model of stability since their independence.

Wow, what a nice surprise! They are doing very well with corruption in particular!

They also scored pretty well on another Index:
http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...ures/index/country.cfm?id=Botswana

"The overall business climate is superior for Africa and a model for the world."

An African nation, and a model for the world. Fantastic!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: coolian2 and 16 guests