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U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:44 am

The 2nd debate of the 2 candidates.

here the official thread about it.

Enjoy the discussion.

Thanks
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QANTAS077
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:05 am

now McCain says he knows how to get Bin Laden, why hasn't he shared that with Bush? but I think this really sums up the night. McCain couldn't be anymore bitter if he tried.

 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:54 am

Can only repeat what I said on BN747's (now deleted) thread.

I reckon that it went 'according to plan' for Obama. Stay calm, act as 'Presidential' as you can at all times, don't throw any mud and don't rise to any bait.

As for McCain, he didn't appear to have any sort of 'plan.' For me, he came over as rambling, ineffectual, and terribly old and tired.

I barely noticed the 'That one..." crack at the time - but, judging by the comment it's already getting, I think it could prove to be one of those 'turning-point' gaffes that have distinguished earlier campaigns. Best comment I've chanced upon so far is the last sentence of this blog entry:-

"There is already a lot of talk in the blogosphere about McCain's referring to Obama as "that one." The Obama campaign was pushing the idea that it was proof McCain was a man of bitter moods. I didn't see it as a major act of disrespect, but it did feel antiquated. I have relatives—older relatives—who use this expression. My mother's version of it was to call someone "himself." (As in, "I'm glad himself has decided to join us for dinner.") McCain has 27 days to find a better way to take on his opponent or he'll be calling him Mr. President."

http://www.slate.com/id/2201762/
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baroque
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:58 am

Both very wary. It begins to seem that far from being deciding moments, the debates are just becoming a stage to act out what is already evident. Then again, one slip, and what had been self evident would go out of the window.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
terribly old and tired

Yep!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:48 am

Obama made three foreign policy gaffes that I could see.

1) The US didn’t take its eye off the ball in Afghanistan and let UBL escape because Bush was preoccupied w Iraq. UBL escaped in Nov2001, Iraq buildup began 10 months later, and Iraq was invaded in 2003. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GET OBAMA A CALENDER

2) The cost of the war in Iraq literally changes every week according to Obama. Tonight he claimed it was $700+bn. No. That’s the cost of the war on terror as a whole. Iraq (per the Congressional Research Service) cost $444.6bn as of July. For reference, the cost of all the Clinton Wars was about $450bn most of which was spent “containing” Saddam, and that “containment”….caused UBL to decide to start killing Americans; caused the war on terror

3) Obama promised to encourage democracy, reforms, peace, love, and happiness in Pakistan via foreign aid, but Biden said in the VP debate that the first thing they’d cut due to the financial crisis….is foreign aid.

I was really disappointed by the format. Tom Brokaw filtered the questions and turned a town hall meeting into a normal podium debate. As town hall formats with all sorts of unexpected questions are where McCain does well, how many of you think that's an accident?
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QANTAS077
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Obama made three foreign policy gaffes that I could see.

McCain says he knows how to get Bin Laden, why hasn't he shared this with the man already in the WH?

McCain knows how to get American working again, well John, there's a few people that lost their jobs last month that need this info yesterday, not in 10 months from now if you win.

[Edited 2008-10-08 05:33:48]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Obama made three foreign policy gaffes that I could see.

They both made unforgivable gaffes, and they both further dug the holes of mistruth their campaigns have been mired in for the last several weeks. It's just further spin insanity, as I like to call it. Stop being so blindly partisan and call them BOTH out for what they are: lying, spinning, same-as-usual politicians.

A few dumb examples:

- McCain exaggerated Obama's votes to increase taxes.

McCain: Sen. Obama has voted 94 times to either increase your taxes or against tax cuts. That's his record.

He’s getting warmer — the first time we dinged him for this one, he said Obama voted 94 times to increase taxes, which is way off. He's now saying it's 94 votes either for increased taxes or against tax cuts. But that's still misleading. Seven of the votes were for lowering taxes for most people while increasing them on a few, and 11 votes were for increasing taxes only on those making more than $1 million a year (not "your taxes" except for a very few.)

Obama had his own misleading claim about vote counts:

Obama: And during that time, he voted 23 times against alternative fuels, 23 times.

We found that only 11 of those votes would have reduced or eliminated subsidies or tax incentives for alternative energy. The rest were votes McCain cast against the mandatory use of alternative energy, or votes in favor of allowing exemptions from such mandates.

- Obama repeated a stale talking point when he said, "We're spending $10 billion a month in Iraq at a time when the Iraqis have a $79 billion surplus, $79 billion."

As we’ve pointed out when Obama said it on the campaign trail, when he repeated it at the last debate, and even when Biden mentioned the figure in the vice presidential debate, that number is wrong. The Iraqis actually “have” $29.4 billion in the bank.

- McCain said it again: "We've got to stop sending $700 billion a year to countries that don't want us very – like us very much" (He actually used the figure three times in the debate.) He's talking about what we spend importing oil, and he's said the same thing at the last debate and numerous other times. At current oil prices, the correct figure is about $493 billion. About a third of that goes to Canada, Mexico and the United Kingdom, which were still on the friendly side of the ledger last time we looked.

Lies lies lies, spin spin spin...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_2.html

Kick these two to the floor already...

[Edited 2008-10-08 05:19:59]
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Boeing757/767
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:48 pm

As far as the Afghanistan calendar stated above, I don't think Obama was referring to exact timing, but the fact is Bush did take his eyes off chasing Bin Laden before launching the Iraq war. And we're paying for it dearly.
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sv7887
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:03 pm



Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 7):
As far as the Afghanistan calendar stated above, I don't think Obama was referring to exact timing, but the fact is Bush did take his eyes off chasing Bin Laden before launching the Iraq war. And we're paying for it dearly.

In all fairness it's hard to catch a guy that is being tipped off to every US move by the Pakistani ISI.

This won't stop with a President Obama either. How is he going to get credible intelligence if US forces aren't on the ground in Pakistan? Right now we're wholly reliant on the Pakistani Armed Forces.

The problem is that the new President of Pakistan has enough issues and I am not sure he's the right man for the job. If you start bombing Pakistani unilaterally you risk destroying whatever relationship we have with them...and they have Nuclear Weapons.

Obama came across as whiny on the Pakistan issue, even asking for a rebuttal when they had agreed not to. He says healthcare is a right, and fine that's his opinion. His plan is similar to the state of Massachusetts one, but he seems to ignore the fact that MA is having a hell of a time paying for it. I live in MA and our taxes are pretty high as it is. We may even need a loan from Washington because the credit markets are frozen and we can't raise any money through municipal bonds.

He is relying on feel good measures, but doesn't really say how he's going to fund it. Independent economists have already said it will cost 3 Trillion just to implement his tax plan, and he's committing to spend even more.

The Iraqis say they're close to an agreement that will have the US leave in 2011 or stay longer at Baghdad's request, so it's not like we can suddenly renege on that.

McCain and Obama repeated their typical talking points, nothing new here. The only new thing was McCain's idea to buy mortgages...He explained it well and it makes sense but it will be very expensive.

McCain's tax plans are equally impractical. Don't know how we can afford another giant tax cut when we are running the deficits we are. Cutting spending is nice, but neither candidate dares to discuss how to reform Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which accounts for the largest piece of our budget.
 
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:10 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
For me, he came over as rambling, ineffectual, and terribly old and tired.

He came off a terribly condescending. Specially right before the "That One" talk.. he was talking about "goodies" .. It was really terrible..

Talking points and spin aside, you cannot deny that Obama "looked" more the part of President.
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NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:18 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 8):
In all fairness it's hard to catch a guy that is being tipped off to every US move by the Pakistani ISI.

Personally I reckon they were both a mile off target.

First of all, any idea that Osama Bin Laden is huddling in a cave somewhere on the North-West Frontier has to be the purest eyewash. He's much more likely to be spending most of his time (minus the wig, the false beard, and the phoney 'flowing robes') living in a 'secluded' location back in his home territory - Saudi-Arabia - in the bosom of his wealthy family.

Secondly, Bin Laden may have grabbed most of the publicity so far, but any idea that he's the sole leader of Muslim extremism - and that therefore knocking him off will solve the problem - is the purest garbage. Straight out of old-fashioned Western films - all you have to do is shoot all the 'black hats' off the rooftops, and then beat the head baddie to the draw, and you and the leading lady can ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after.........

Muslim extremism is a world-wide political movement. And it can only be 'defeated' by political means. Trying to find a 'military solution' is just playing into the hands of people like Bin Laden.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
md80fanatic
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:22 pm

Thanks NAV20 for the effective wake up call regarding bin Laden. I have always thought he was dead already, and the result would be the same (we'll never find him). He's the perfect "boogey man" for America.
 
sv7887
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
For me, he came over as rambling, ineffectual, and terribly old and tired.

He came off a terribly condescending. Specially right before the "That One" talk.. he was talking about "goodies" .. It was really terrible..

Talking points and spin aside, you cannot deny that Obama "looked" more the part of President.

It's sort of like Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...McCain supporters thought he won, Obama supporters thought Obama won.

I wasn't impressed that neither candidate had the guts to talk about Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. Those are crucial budgetary issues.

There is no doubt in my mind we haven't seen the last of the bailouts, or that even this current bailout will actually end with $700 billion. Since when does any "estimate" actually pan out to be true when politicians are involved?

If this is the case, we need to devise long term solutions to our entitlement programs instead of passing these half assed band aids.

Both candidates talked about the people getting their finances in order, that's great, but what about Washington?

McCain talks earmarks, that's nice but as Obama says a fraction of our budget
Obama talks about taxes on the corporations and rich, but doesn't tell you his plan will still net a deficit and that doesn't factor in his planned spending.

I am honestly not impressed with either candidate in this aspect. It's just more partisan nonsense.

The more I watch these debates the more disillusioned I become. I don't think either party has what it takes to get us through this, and a mess largely of their own making.

At least here on A.net we have honest discussions. Sometimes we delve into pettiness but we talk facts. We debate these issues because WE CARE. I don't see that in the eyes of these politicians.

Where is the open honest debate on Capitol Hill or in these debates? Why do Obama and McCain need a 30 page "agreement" on content? I don't know if anyone watched the West Wing, but I remember they had a mock debate where it was open rules..

That's what we need, but both campaigns rather give us a rehash of stump speeches, and are deathly afraid of a gaffee or being caught ignorant on a question or issue...
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 12):
Thanks NAV20 for the effective wake up call regarding bin Laden. I have always thought he was dead already,

Cheers, MD80fanatic - almost put 'even assuming that he's still alive' into my post. But I try (not always successfully) to keep them short.  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Charles79
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Stop being so blindly partisan and call them BOTH out for what they are: lying, spinning, same-as-usual politicians.

Aaron, you know that won't work in here. If you read what most folks post in here either Obama will bring an incredible utopia along with a perfect world or McCain will make you rich overnight and kill all the terrorists in the world with one swipe while running a marathon given that his healthier than a 30-yr-old.

In my opinion, they both failed miserably in connecting with the angry, bitter, and scared Americans who are caught in the middle of this economic crisis. Obama tried hopelessly to make it sound as if he really cared about the Middle Class; he succeeded in irritating me with comments such as "folks like ourselves" (referring to his and McCain's economic class status). I know you two are wealthy, no need to rub it in. He also came through as slightly arrogant as if being elected President is his birthright entitlement.

McCain, on the other hand, seemed calmer and more genuine at the beginning, but that quickly gave way to a slight bitterness. I don't want to tear him for being of age, but he did seem out of puff, as if he was annoyed to be there and have to answer our silly questions.

As for both, they once again missed the opportunity to provide details about their plans and make it clearer as to what they intend to do once in office. Both had blunders regarding foreign policy, and both (like in every debate) failed to answer a lot of questions directly.

All in all, Obama's positions are closer to mine (I'm a moderate socialist) than McCain's but Obama just doesn't come across as being trustworthy; McCain seems a bit more genuine in his care for the country but he has moved too far right to please his party that I can't recognize him anymore. I guess this is an election where I'll have to vote based on positions without regards to the candidate.
 
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:58 pm

I was disappointed in the debate. I support Obama, but felt neither he nor McCain did a great job. McCain's "that one" was disrespectful and condescending, as was his presumption that the early questioner didn't know anything about Fannie and Freddie. Neither one gave a knockout punch, which probably/hopefully does more to hurt McCain at this point.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:12 pm

Remember that Obama will raise our taxes -- Just for those making $250,000-plus.

Obama will raise taxes on small buisness -- He didn't say that.

Obama will socialized medicine and create a rationed-care system. NO! Get that our of your heads. He said (and you can verify) that everyone who likes his or her system can keep it. He's just making it easier to acquire health insurance through the market.

He insulted the current president about his reaction to 9/11. Deservedly so.

He mocks McCains plan but doesn't take about any specifics for his. Agreed on that one.
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Aaron747
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14):
Aaron, you know that won't work in here. If you read what most folks post in here either Obama will bring an incredible utopia along with a perfect world or McCain will make you rich overnight and kill all the terrorists in the world with one swipe while running a marathon given that his healthier than a 30-yr-old.

Unfortunately, I think you're right - but it's exactly what America needs most. Voters still aren't DEMANDING of these two what they should...

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14):
In my opinion, they both failed miserably in connecting with the angry, bitter, and scared Americans who are caught in the middle of this economic crisis.

Damn straight. I don't know what domestic CNN is playing these days, but there were some incensed people on CNN International this morning. An hour before the debate, Lou Dobbs questioned whether either candidate would bother telling the straight facts to the American people about this crisis and unfortunately he was on the right track because both Obama and McCain's handlers will not allow them to go the route of truth.
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baroque
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:20 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
As we’ve pointed out when Obama said it on the campaign trail, when he repeated it at the last debate, and even when Biden mentioned the figure in the vice presidential debate, that number is wrong. The Iraqis actually “have” $29.4 billion in the bank.

You might want to keep a minute by minute check on $29.4 billion in the bank, Aaron, bearing in mind the way banks and their deposits are these days.  Wink I do wonder if that money was deposited anywhere other than in sticky paws.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Secondly, Bin Laden may have grabbed most of the publicity so far, but any idea that he's the sole leader of Muslim extremism - and that therefore knocking him off will solve the problem - is the purest garbage. Straight out of old-fashioned Western films - all you have to do is shoot all the 'black hats' off the rooftops, and then beat the head baddie to the draw, and you and the leading lady can ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after....

Yes, burying that chestnut would definitely be a step forward. I mean just look how shooting Saddam's sons to pieces calmed things down, and then catching Saddam and hanging him, that worked too???

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Muslim extremism is a world-wide political movement. And it can only be 'defeated' by political means. Trying to find a 'military solution' is just playing into the hands of people like Bin Laden.

Well yes, At least Petraeus has figured out the west cannot reasonably hope to kill its way to victory, well not without exterminating a fairish proportion of the Muslim population because as you kill the extremists, it irritates some of the more moderates and so on, and on and on again.

Best strategy would be to have a chat with the Jesuits as to how to go about it.
Or try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Up!
for an appraisal of the technique.

Whatever, it would certainly be easier to deal with the children than the adults. Which is why allowing religious schools as a country such as Australia does has considerable potential for trouble.

Obama always strikes me as faintly Jesuitical beyond his US Christian heritage. Thank heaven he seems a lot more sensible than our local Jesuitical pollie, the Mad Monk himself, Mr A Abbott.
 
sv7887
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:23 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14):
In my opinion, they both failed miserably in connecting with the angry, bitter, and scared Americans who are caught in the middle of this economic crisis.

Damn straight. I don't know what domestic CNN is playing these days, but there were some incensed people on CNN International this morning. An hour before the debate, Lou Dobbs questioned whether either candidate would bother telling the straight facts to the American people about this crisis and unfortunately he was on the right track because both Obama and McCain's handlers will not allow them to go the route of truth.

This is exactly my sentiments! Where are the tough questions? Where is the "straight talk" that we are in serious trouble and in for some belt tightening?

One guy says he'll raise taxes and increase spending
Another guy says he'll cut some entitlements and give huge tax breaks..

Doesn't sound rooted in common sense to me....
 
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:41 pm

I watched the debate right up until the end prior to switching to what the experts take on the debate. I agree with what others have said, it was hardly a "town hall" meeting. It was more of the first debate just in a different state. I do find McCain coming across as bitter and hostile most of the time. His few attempts at humor failed miserably Obama at times seemed to me holding back telling off McCain. Also I though McCain brought up stuff already mentioned in the other debate forcing Obama to use his limited time to once again defend his position. I do feel that the citizens of the USA deserve better from there candidates.
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PPVRA
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:49 pm

Watching CNN, it's amazing how those lines measuring the undecided voters dropped every time McCain touched the Iraq subject. But I haven't heard much different from Obama, to be honest. He seems to stick to his talking points about his past record on the Iraq issue instead of sticking to his subject of "change" and focusing on the "future".

Both are hopeless on the economy.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 19):
Where is the "straight talk" that we are in serious trouble and in for some belt tightening?

I don't think you can really blame either of them. I don't expect that Dubya has briefed either of them on the true situation - and even if he has, it'll likely be a damned sight worse by tomorrow. And it'll be late January before whichever of them gets elected will be able even to start governing - God knows what this appalling mess will look like by then.

The last politician who was free to be completely honest with the public was probably Winston Churchill in 1940 - "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat....". But he was fortified by the knowledge that he was heading a 'National Government' and would not have to face an election for at least five years. And ALSO that, with Hitler and his generals standing on the French coast only twenty miles away studying Britain through their binoculars, amid the wreckage of virtually the entire equipment of the British Army, no-one else was crazy enough even to want the job........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
AirCop
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:31 pm

I didn't see the debate, I was somewhere over America in a US Airways 319, but seeing clips this morning, what was up with Senator McCain refusing to shake Senator Obama hand at the end of the debate? Apparently Obama with the audience while McCain left right away.
 
AustinAllison
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:43 pm

McCain won the debate, easy. From my views, McCain won.

-McCain is for fair taxes, not class warfare like Sen. Obama. Raising the taxes on the wealthy,and large businesses, who pay 50 percent of taxes is not fair because those people create jobs here. If you tax those businesses they will only move more jobs from here in the US. Thats a fact. Obama made a huge mistake, most small business make more than 250,000 dollars a year, and he is going to tax them, which will eliminate jobs and raise prices
-Sen. Obama still can't admit Iraq is on the road to a success, after the surge
-His associations with a terrorist, and radical black racist is something left to be desired
-Obama's views on abortion are unforgivable. The only thing I can give him credit for is the "with exception to the mother's life" quote.
-Obama's against education vouchers, which undermines the child's education. He says it will undermine public education, but when a school is failing, a parent has every right in the world to change schools and withdraw funding from the failing school. Another example on how he is out of touch with Americans
-Health Care is not a right, as he says, rather a responsibility. People are much more responsible with their money, spending it for their own insurance, rather than a Universal System that is easily abused and basically a handout.


Obama is fundamentally wrong in his policies. His ideas will lead us into a system that eliminates responsibility from everyday life. It is not the governments responsibility to provide healthcare in any situation. People know how much a dollar is worth if they spend/save it rather than contribute to the government. If elected, Barack Obama will preside over the worst U.S. economy, not due to anything any current official has done, but because of his out of control policies that will push us farther into debt, and eliminate millions of jobs. Sure he is a good speaker, but it is no substitute for his out of touch policies.
 
Charles79
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:54 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 19):
One guy says he'll raise taxes and increase spending
Another guy says he'll cut some entitlements and give huge tax breaks..

Doesn't sound rooted in common sense to me....

Did any of their carefully rehearsed soundbites sound rooted in common sense? It would have been a hilarious act of comedy if it weren't our own country they were talking about. My (wholly uneducated) guess is that regardless of who wins we are going to see an increase in taxes. I just got that suspicion in the back of me neck.

The most painful part of the debate was watching that young, 20-something kid (who was kinda cute now to think of it) in the front row trying to look smart the entire time! He reminded me of being in an interview, not quite knowing where to put your arms, how to sit (straight up or at the edge of the seat or slightly leaning back), and trying to look interested at the same time!
 
A332
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:21 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
1) The US didn’t take its eye off the ball in Afghanistan and let UBL escape because Bush was preoccupied w Iraq. UBL escaped in Nov2001, Iraq buildup began 10 months later, and Iraq was invaded in 2003. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GET OBAMA A CALENDER

Please. Bush & co were eyeing up Iraq while the World Trade Centre was still smoldering. Afghanistan has never been much of a priority.

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 7):
As far as the Afghanistan calendar stated above, I don't think Obama was referring to exact timing, but the fact is Bush did take his eyes off chasing Bin Laden before launching the Iraq war. And we're paying for it dearly.

 checkmark  Exactly.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
StuckInCA
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/20

Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:48 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
As for McCain, he didn't appear to have any sort of 'plan.' For me, he came over as rambling, ineffectual, and terribly old and tired.

That's exactly how I saw things. In fact, he seemed short of breath at times.

Quoting AustinAllison (Reply 24):
most small business make more than 250,000 dollars a year

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/0...ain-campaigns-small-business-myth/

94.5% of all “flow-through” entities (self-employed folks, which generally tend to be small businesses, though Tiger Woods also falls into this category) had receipts under $100,000 in 2007

...a Bush argument from 2004...
...
Ryan Donmoyer — the best tax reporter in town — pointed out, the argument was a bit ridiculous because less than 5% of small businesses who file under sub-chapter S made more than $200,000...

...the total number of small businesses effected by a tax hike on those who net more than $250,000 a year remains a few hundred thousand – nowhere near the 23 million Fiorina claimed...

confronted with reality, the McCain campaign digs in to lie some more. Or, as Newton-Small concluded, “This statement, while factually true, is terribly misleading since only a small percentage of the 23 million small businesses would actually see tax increases...


Quoting A332 (Reply 26):
Bush & co were eyeing up Iraq while the World Trade Centre was still smoldering

That IS a fact.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9061
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:49 pm

Watching the debates this time was basically waiting for one of the two to screw up, and generally they didn't.

McCain was McCain and Obama was Obama.

The problem for McCain was that he needed to "turn the polls around" and I don't think last night managed that.

So what is ahead? The Troopergate initial report is due to be made public on Friday and the media will be waiting for that one.

One more debate next week. Maybe Palin will sub for McCain to liven things up. Doubt it.

Obama will be able to spend more money than McCain so there is no turn around there in the polls.

Unless there is a huge October surprise I think the election is settling down with Obama maintaining the lead. The question then would be the potential coattails for Congress. That is where the real battle is going to be in terms of what legislation will get passed over the next two years.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:57 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 11):
McCain supporters thought he won,

Not this one , McCain played it too safe. And I dont mean bringing up Ayres and all that. He lets himself get lumped in with all of this mess when frankly the record shows he was blasting away on it years ago.

He lets himself lose the regulation/ deregulation argument by not setting it straight. Regulation to Obama is the government controlling everything. Regulation to McCain is the government getting involved and fucking it up. If the government was not involved in home sales , then our tax dollars would not be required to bail anyone out. No bail out would be required , because the mortgage industry would not have risked what they did. If the socialist in our government hadn't created the scenario to begin with then no bail out would have to be created. President Bush was dead wrong by promoting these ideas , although I see what he was doing in trying to recover the economy after the 11th ... it was a terrible call. Then McCain goes to the "well lets just buy up all the houses in America !". What a foolish thing to propose .... our housing market will never recover if the Fed owns all the houses. WTF is he talking about !
So Obama hits McCain on his deregulation votes ,,, and he just bends over and takes it . Amazing.

And when talking about healthcare , he did not even talk about free-market .... The liberals have I guess just basically whined there way along so free-market ( You know the one that built our entire system) is not even to be discussed ! Liberals want the government to control health care ! ARE YOU NUTS ! .

And the government is going to be able to send your stupid half ass under achieving kid too college .... to the same college that I have been saving to send my kids to ? The same college that I demand my kids make good grades so they MIGHT qualify for ? Ya I guess its all equal . Think about it ! If I hear another politician tell me he wants my kid to be able to go to college I am going to scream.

So as you see some of us have real problems with McCain .... Not that you will ever see a Democrat part with there precious candidate.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1618
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:07 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
Liberals want the government to control health care !

Really? Some probably do, but I don't think that's what Obama has as a plan. I know I don't want the government to control it. I just think that everyone should have insurance and insurance companies should let doctors make medical decisions without insurance companies getting involved.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
And the government is going to be able to send your stupid half ass under achieving kid too college

Huh? I don't think Democrats are proposing sending kids to college. Much less, underachieving kids. I think they want to make sure there is money available for student loans.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
Not that you will ever see a Democrat part with there precious candidate.

I don't think that's true. In the case of this election, what would a democrat do, vote for McCain/Palin? They've taken such an extreme right position and run such a nasty campaign that it's hard not to become more unified behind the Democratic candidate.

Personally, I'm actually fairly fiscally conservative for a Democrat and have some other views that are a bit more aligned with Republican ideals. If there were a truly moderate Republican ticket, maybe it would be more compelling. That said, the performance of the Republicans in the past 8 years is a huge problem. Especially when McCain has surrounded himself with the very same people who were a part of bringing Bush to the fore.
 
AustinAllison
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:15 pm

A Small business employs between 20 and 200 people.

-Scenario: A Local Grocery store has a work force, not including management, of 30 people all getting paid minimum wage. The store is open 7 days a week with 20 people working at all times regardless. Open from 6a to 10p

20 People times $6.55 per hour = $131 per hour of operation
16 hours of operation per day times $131 per hour of operation = $2096 per day of operation in pay roll.
$2096 times 360 days a year = AT LEAST $754,560 dollars a year in payroll.

This business has to make at least AT LEAST $754,560 dollars to meet pay roll. Under Obama's plan these businesses would see tax hikes. Only small businesses with 6 or less employees will see a cut. Do the math, Obama will raise taxes on most small businesses.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:20 pm

Quoting AustinAllison (Reply 31):
20 People times $6.55 per hour = $131 per hour of operation
16 hours of operation per day times $131 per hour of operation = $2096 per day of operation in pay roll.
$2096 times 360 days a year = AT LEAST $754,560 dollars a year in payroll.

Isnt payroll tax deductible for businesses?.

Do you know the difference between "net" and "gross"?

[Edited 2008-10-08 10:21:49]
Step into my office, baby
 
AustinAllison
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 32):
Isnt payroll tax deductible for businesses?.

Do you know the difference between "net" and "gross"?

Are you kidding me? Pay Roll Tax Deductible? NO! Everything the business makes from transactions is taxable including pay roll. Just like everything people make,though they don't do it all the time, is reported as income and taxed. Businesses are no different.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:48 pm



Quoting AustinAllison (Reply 33):
Are you kidding me? Pay Roll Tax Deductible? NO! Everything the business makes from transactions is taxable including pay roll. Just like everything people make,though they don't do it all the time, is reported as income and taxed. Businesses are no different.

What are you talking about? Wages are business expense and therefore tax deductible...

http://www.kiplinger.com/features/ar...s/2007/01/businesstaxopedia.html#w

What i am getting at, is that your "Scenario" is full of holes. I certainly hope you don't do your own taxes.
Step into my office, baby
 
AustinAllison
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:50 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 34):
What i am getting at, is that your "Scenario" is full of holes. I certainly hope you don't do your own taxes

Point them out
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:52 pm



Quoting AustinAllison (Reply 35):
Point them out

OK. I will but so that i do not waste my time. First tell me the difference between "Gross" and "Net"..
Step into my office, baby
 
AustinAllison
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:55 pm

Gross is before the expenses, taxes; net is after such expenses and deductions.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 30):
Really? Some probably do, but I don't think that's what Obama has as a plan. I know I don't want the government to control it. I just think that everyone should have insurance and insurance companies should let doctors make medical decisions without insurance companies getting involved

Thats Fair CA , So why cant it be like car insurance ? Free choice and market drives the price up and down. When the government gets involved it screws up the market and choice gets eliminated. If it was a free market system , vendors would be lowering the cost in order to accumulate customers . The price war would start and that is what helps customers.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 30):
Huh? I don't think Democrats are proposing sending kids to college. Much less, underachieving kids. I think they want to make sure there is money available for student loans.

There is money available for student loans now .... the system works . The system has aways worked... But it does not work for those who do not make it work . So our politicians are using it as a heartstrings issue ... with no solution at all. I believe that Democrats would love nothing more than to control college funding , it only solidifies power in the central government. And to add ,, gives them power over what can be taught in college as well.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 30):
taken such an extreme right position and run such a nasty campaign that it's hard not to become more unified behind the Democratic candidate.

Really what extreme right position ? Gay marriage ? Abortion ? these are right wing issues not extreme . I am right wing and I have not seen them come out on any extreme right positions ? And they should not come out on right wing positions .. they need to stay centered.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting AustinAllison (Reply 37):
Gross is before the expenses, taxes; net is after such expenses and deductions.

Good boy.. Now the 250k limit is based on NET values..

.. read this.. someone saved me the trouble...

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/07/fiorinas_fuzzy_math.html
Step into my office, baby
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:22 pm



Quoting AustinAllison (Reply 31):
This business has to make at least AT LEAST $754,560 dollars to meet pay roll.

Actually, the business would have to make $754,560 over it's costs of doing business, (rent, inventory, legal expenses, ads, utilities etc) just to meet payroll and to make a profit.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 34):
Wages are business expense and therefore tax deductible...

True..

Quoting AustinAllison (Reply 31):
The store is open 7 days a week with 20 people working at all times regardless.

If you have 30 total employees, and 20 are working at all time regardless, the math doesn't work. (Can't be much of an employer if everyone but management makes the same.) A store describe like this wouldn't provide any medical, so these people would be pushed onto a government low income health service, in my state it would be ACCHS, which would mean the taxpayers are picking up the cost of medical care for these employees.
 
AustinAllison
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:23 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 39):
Good boy.. Now the 250k limit is based on NET values..

.. read this.. someone saved me the trouble...

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2....html

The problem is Obama's never pointed that out. How do we know?
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:24 pm



Quoting AirCop (Reply 40):

Actually, the business would have to make $754,560 over it's costs of doing business, (rent, inventory, legal expenses, ads, utilities etc) just to meet payroll and to make a profit.

Ding Ding!!! And that profit would have the be OVER the $250k..
Step into my office, baby
 
DucatiRacer
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 4:08 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:37 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 34):
What are you talking about?

Look at the profile - age 16-20. You are arguing with someone who probably has not even had a real job, much less owned a business. Don't waste your time.

No offense intended Austin, but you sound like a mindless simpleton regurgitating all the conservative vitriol you have been served at momma's knee. I am sure you are not that dim.

If you happen to be over 18, and therefore eligible to vote, I would recommend you study a little more on the issues, and the real-life circumstances those issues affect, before you spend your electoral currency in November, as it sounds like the folks you are listening to now are not necessarily the most informed.

Personally, I think both candidates are piss-poor, but at 36 years old that has been the case my whole voting life.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:04 pm

Another thing ,, are we honestly to believe that the old windbag from NBC was the best moderator they could find ? The guy looked drugged , Brokaw was a very bad choice for that job. I think Anderson Cooper ,Bill O'Riley or even old shiver leg Mathews from MSNBC would have been better.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1618
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/20

Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:24 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 44):
Bill O'Riley

As a moderator? LOL. That guy's more capable of starting a riot than moderating anything. Think about the word "moderator" for a few minutes and then try to imagine him in that role. He's as hate filled and biased as they come. That's like suggesting Arianna Huffington or Keith Olbermann should moderate (with respect to the bias anyway. Probably the hatred too).

Brokaw looked a little less energetic than he usually does, but he's a much more respectable and legitimate choice than Bill O.

Republicans sure do hate everyone this year.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:42 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 45):
As a moderator? LOL.

Why because he called Barney Frank a coward ?... he was right, Frank was blaming everyone else and taking no responsibility for oversight of his committee. Bill was right on the mark.

It would have been alot more interesting to see them get pushed a little . Maybe they would have taken a swing at each other by the end of the night ! Big grin
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:46 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 45):

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 44):
Bill O'Riley

As a moderator? LOL. That guy's more capable of starting a riot than moderating anything. Think about the word "moderator" for a few minutes and then try to imagine him in that role. He's as hate filled and biased as they come. That's like suggesting Arianna Huffington or Keith Olbermann should moderate (with respect to the bias anyway. Probably the hatred too).

O'Reilly is the biggest windbag out there. I don't have cable at home, and two weeks ago when I was in DC, I turned the TV on and listened to the crap he was spewing..Disgusting. It is just populist nonsense. He and his buddies at Fox Business were pretending to be outraged, facial gestures and all.

I just wanted to vomit...

I've always worried about allowing media outlets to buy each other out..I forget who repealed the law that kept a limit on how many media outlets one company could own.

The saving grace is the emergence of the bloggers..
 
Charles79
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 44):
The guy looked drugged

Well you'd have to be in order to ingest all that BS coming from both of them!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 46):
It would have been alot more interesting to see them get pushed a little . Maybe they would have taken a swing at each other by the end of the night !

Bill O'Reilly is a bit too conservative for my taste but he does ask pointed questions and probably would have been able to get an honest answer from either of them. Instead what we got was 90 mins of free air time for their propaganda.

Quoting DucatiRacer (Reply 43):
Personally, I think both candidates are piss-poor, but at 36 years old that has been the case my whole voting life.

I have to agree. I'm 29 so I have only voted in 2 previous general elections but this will be the third one in which I'd rather throw a dart at a crowd and probably pick a better candidate that what's on the ballot.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2233
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008

Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:41 pm

That was one of the most boring and forgettable debates in the history of presidental debates. I'll call it a draw, because neither did or said anything noteworthy.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.

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