klmcedric
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Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:01 pm

Why does this word, and what it stands for have such a negative connotation in the USA.
It seems to me that for a large american community, socialist are no better then communists,
or fundamental muslims.

Only just a minute ago a saw a man, on a Mc Cain convention, ventilating his fear about how
those "socialist hooligans" are about to take over the country.

So please enlighten me, what's the deal with that?

I didn't start this thread in order to debate which system is better then the other, but I live in a
socialist country, and so far , I can't say it has inconvenienced me in any way.

[Edited 2008-10-10 05:02:02]
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:06 pm

Hey Cedric,

just to understand, you feel like Belgium is a socialist country?

Is it possible that you equal social-democrazy with socialism?
If so, that is untrue.

But I might just misunderstand it  Smile
 
jcs17
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:15 pm

How about because it's a complete and utter failure in the vast majority of places where it is implemented. Government, by nature, is highly inefficient, and what happens when government takes a large role in supporting inefficient members of society through welfare, health care, and other such garbage? It just becomes a giant black hole. Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)? Nothing at all.

Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:25 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Government, by nature, is highly inefficient, and what happens when government takes a large role in supporting inefficient members of society through welfare, health care, and other such garbage? It just becomes a giant black hole. Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)? Nothing at all.

Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

You know, the funny thing about all that, true as it may be, is we've got one of the largest bureaucracies among the industrialized nations in terms of services per capita, and the second highest public debt per capita in the world as well. That's an awful lot of bloat and inefficiency - which only goes to show that both parties are incredibly inept at reflecting the will of the people, if that's truly what it is.

This latest foray into financial madness will really test the waters of reaction and/or acceptance to socialist principles - as most Americans have never collectively watched their privately-funded retirements evaporate in a matter of weeks.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:26 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)?

Pls explain that. Would like to understand your statement
 
klmcedric
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:28 pm



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 1):
just to understand, you feel like Belgium is a socialist country?

Well I wouldn't go as far as saying that, but if you compared Belgium to the USA ,it's pretty
clear which one of those two nations is the most socialist.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:29 pm

We up here shake our heads every time at those statements...

As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

Socialism=Reds do that! OMG! It's evil!

Truth is, I've had Americans ask me as a Canadian if we have a police force that arrests you for sneezing!? Or do we have elections... It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

For the record: Canada has socialist programs (that do work despite what some propaganda says), free elections with more than 2 parties, actually we are approaching election day next week... and I've never seen someone fined for sneezing much less arrested.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:33 pm

I think American Joe associates social democracies with socialism/communism, countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Finland are all social democracies and I don't think you could call any of them failure's, in fact they normally make up the top five places in the world to live, other countries like NZ, Australia, Canada all have social welfare systems and fall somewhere between social democratic countries and free market economies like the US, all the above mentioned countries have government provided healthcare which is as from my understanding more efficient and fairer than the US system, in NZ and Australia you also have the option of private medical.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

That's because they've spent the last 60 years thinking socialism and communism are the same thing. It's ingrained and can't be stamped out, kinda like tipping, we all know its stupid but have to go along with it anyway.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:38 pm

Americans don't like Socialism because we are not a socialist country.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

Screw the government. The government just creates more problems than they solve. Keep the government out of my life and off my back.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)? Nothing at all.

It is the same,,, Most ghettos are filled with lazy dead beats who want to mooch off of the government and blame their problems on somebody else. It is always somebody's fault why they are poor. Those that have get up and go work their way out.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
as most Americans have never collectively watched their privately-funded retirements evaporate in a matter of weeks.

It hasn't evaporated. It has declined, but not disappeared. Mine has gone done 17%. It will go back up again. Those who remember 1987 shouldn't get too worried. In a few years things will be up again and we'll forget the lessons we learned in 2008. People never learn from history. Just a few months ago we were hearing oil would be at $200 a barrel. Back in the 70s we heard that gold would never go below $1000, the experts were wrong on both accounts.
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Nicoeddf
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:39 pm



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 5):
Well I wouldn't go as far as saying that, but if you compared Belgium to the USA ,it's pretty
clear which one of those two nations is the most socialist.

Ok  Smile

But I beg to differ between socialism and social-democratic structure.
Socialist countries are former Warsaw-Pact countries.

Every European democratic country is social-democratic though.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
We up here shake our heads every time at those statements...

As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

Socialism=Reds do that! OMG! It's evil!

Truth is, I've had Americans ask me as a Canadian if we have a police force that arrests you for sneezing!? Or do we have elections... It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

For the record: Canada has socialist programs (that do work despite what some propaganda says), free elections with more than 2 parties, actually we are approaching election day next week... and I've never seen someone fined for sneezing much less arrested.

Yes, so true. You could cry sometimes you hear things like "Isn't Germany the island besides the UK"?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:49 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

Which is why people are so angry at the "bailout". Government caused the mess to begin with, and in trying to fix it, they have ended up robbing the market of liquidity and now we might have a full blown recession on our hands.

It's called the Law of Unintended Consequences. The government is a very large sledgehammer, not a jeweler's screwdriver, and whenever it expends its energy, maybe it achieves its primary purpose but causes a lot of unintended side effects as well. For example, the well-intentioned policies which created welfare and medicaid as an assistance to the poor ended up destroying the fabric that held families together in low-income society. Another example, Social Security - well intentioned as a last-ditch source of retirement income, has resulted in millions of americans believing that they don't need to save up on their own, that social security will provide for them. Or minimum wage laws, also well intentioned, squeeze out employment that might be offered if the cost were lower - i.e. some labor-intensive industries (like rug-making) simply are not economically feasible in the US.

I'm not saying we should not have a government or these government programs. But the essence of conservatism is the recognition that these side-effects will happen, and that we should be very careful in wielding that big sledgehammer.

The current economic crisis is a perfect case in point. The noble idea of making the purchase of a home more affordable ended up undermining the entire financial system.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

I have lived and worked in Europe, the former soviet union, Vietnam, and a variety of other places. I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.
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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
when government takes a large role in supporting inefficient members

Ah. That's why we need to have the 700 billion dollar bail out right...  sarcastic  I love it when Republicans say "GOVERNMENT IS HORRIBLE!" Then they take charge, screw everything up, then say, "SEE! WE TOLD YOU!!"

I believe in the mixed economy system. With the benefits of both systems working together. I find it funny how so many politicians say, "Americans are the greatest workers in the world." Really? Then why do you treat them so horribly? Bad insurance, no vacation... I guess keeping workers ignorant keeps them in line.

-HSII
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klmcedric
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:02 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.

So what exactly does it do that you don't want over there?
That's why I started this thread, because I'm interested in why you think it's bad, don't just
tell me you don't want any of it, cos I already knew that!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:04 pm



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
Really? Then why do you treat them so horribly? Bad insurance, no vacation... I guess keeping workers ignorant keeps them in line.

A highly selective criticism. Plenty of countries are worse. Japanese companies offer a lot of vacation but salaries are pitiful compared to Europe and the US and without large twice-yearly bonuses would amount to barely enough to live on in many cases. Japanese employment law looks strong on paper but corporations operate on the premise that they can use longstanding cultural conventions to pressure workers into forgoing their vacation time and/or working many hours of overtime beyond the monthly caps that are actually eligible for pay.
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NAV20
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:06 pm

Good question, KLMCedric.

Once had to inform my (Californian) nephews on the point. Prior to our discussion, as far as I could tell, before our talk, all the way from Manhattan Beach Primary to UCLA, they'd been taught that socialism=communism.

However, I reckon myself that Europeans tend to misunderstand the US system of government. Technically, the United States is not a democracy - it is a republic. And it has a unique form of government (devised way back in the 18th. Century by the Founding Fathers) which is based on the 'separation of powers' - basically a system under which neither the President nor the Congress could assume or exercise total power.

Conversely, most of Europe misunderstands the American approach. And has instead tended towards an arguably more 'democratic' system under which a government, once elected with a majority, can do pretty well what the hell it it likes until it is voted out of power.

On the one hand, the American system has obvious defects, in that the odd Nixon or George W, Bush can commit actual crimes and be more or less sure that it will take the best part of two terms before Congress and/or the Supreme Court can catch up with them. On the other, any unscrupulous European prime minister, so long as he enjoys a parliamentary majority, can pass laws granting himself universal powers. Hitler being the most recent example, and Putin very possibly being the next one.

Not sure which side I'm on. I'm lucky (in this and many other ways) that 'push' has never come to 'shove,' as far as the system of government that I live under is concerned. But I DO tend to 'fall back' on the cooments of two of my political 'heroes' whenever this subject comes up:-

"As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."


That was Abraham Lincoln - not calling on democracy, but stating his case for the preservation of the 'Republic.' No ifs, no buts. And also:-

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

That was Winston Churchill, shortly before he was voted out of office by the very same democratic system that awarded no 'points' for the fact that he had probably done more than any other single person to make sure that Germany, Italy, Japan, and Russia (yes, Russia - happy to enter into discussions with anyone who objects to me including them on the Axis side) did not win WW2.

So, basically, KLMCedric, Europe and the United States are close cousins, but they're not brother and sister, stil less man and wife. The two systems share the same ideals - but they both represent more-than-subtly different routes towards the same goal.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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falstaff
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:08 pm



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
I love it when Republicans say "GOVERNMENT IS HORRIBLE!" Then they take charge, screw everything up, then say, "SEE! WE TOLD YOU!!"

Today's Republicans aren't real Republicans. They are the old tax and spend Democrats. The Republicans need to spend less time worrying about social issues and get back to what made them great; small government and Conservative financial principles.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
have lived and worked in Europe, the former soviet union, Vietnam, and a variety of other places. I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.

The Americans who love socialism are usually the type that never have lived under it.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
kinda like tipping, we all know its stupid but have to go along with it anyway.

We go along with that because we know that the average restuarant worker makes something like $2 an hour. (they are exempt from the minimum wage law) so we feel we have to givethem something so they can make a living.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:11 pm



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
"Americans are the greatest workers in the world."

Gosh when have Americans everr been the greatest workers in the world?
 
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falstaff
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:14 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
Gosh when have Americans everr been the greatest workers in the world?

Yea, all Americans are lazy bums.... Our country didn't get to be powerful by being filled with lazy bums. However we have a lot more dead beats than we used to. The more welfare and government handouts there are the lazier we have become. Also the lazy slackers tend to have more kids and they grow up to be bums too. Then they drain my society of more tax money. It is a vicious circle.
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klmcedric
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:18 pm

Since I feel this thread could go the wrong direction very easily, I would like to ask anyone
participating here to use all of his diplomatic talents, and think twice before writing down anything.

I started this out of pure interest/curiosity,and because it's actual,with the coming elections and don't want to see this evolve into a Euro vs USA thread.
 
David L
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:39 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I have lived and worked in Europe, the former soviet union, Vietnam, and a variety of other places. I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.

But you're lumping very different types of government together. In the former Soviet Union there was a managed economy and almost everything was run by the state. In "socialist" Western European countries, you have private healthcare for those who want it and can afford it, private education for those who want it and can afford it, you're not restricted to the state pension if you want to invest elsewhere, you have a mostly free economy with only a few exceptions (and those are becoming fewer), etc.

You're lumping together communist countries with democratic countries that have some social programmes.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 15):
The Americans who love socialism are usually the type that never have lived under it.

And the Europeans who love social democracy seem to be the ones who have lived under it.  Smile
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:43 pm



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 18):
Since I feel this thread could go the wrong direction very easily, I would like to ask anyone
participating here to use all of his diplomatic talents, and think twice before writing down anything.

I view socialism as one step towards communism. If officials were incorruptible, then I wouldn't have any problem with socialism. However, here in the states, virtually every politician is corrupt, and when he or she has access to that type of power, very easy to quickly switch over to communism or even dictatorship. So while socialism may work for you in your country, it doesn't necessarily work in ours.

Basically, you can see it as our people are more prone to be corrupted by the system than yours. It takes a strong willed person to think what is best for the people, not for him/herself. And frankly, with the bunch of looney toons we have in office right now, basically, OH HELL NO!!!
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
AirCop
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:55 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 9):
Keep the government out of my life and off my back.

Don't you work for a government agency - a school district?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Another example, Social Security - well intentioned as a last-ditch source of retirement income, has resulted in millions of americans believing that they don't need to save up on their own, that social security will provide for them.

The real problem with Social Security is that it is being used as a catch all ( disability payments for drug users etc) instead of what it was designed for supplemental retirement income.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 15):
The Republicans need to spend less time worrying about social issues and get back to what made them great; small government and Conservative financial principles.

It's been a long time since Republicans at the national level actually practiced what they preached.
 
klmcedric
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:56 pm



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 20):
view socialism as one step towards communism. If officials were incorruptible, then I wouldn't have any problem with socialism. However, here in the states, virtually every politician is corrupt, and when he or she has access to that type of power, very easy to quickly switch over to communism or even dictatorship. So while socialism may work for you in your country, it doesn't necessarily work in ours.

Basically, you can see it as our people are more prone to be corrupted by the system than yours. It takes a strong willed person to think what is best for the people, not for him/herself. And frankly, with the bunch of looney toons we have in office right now, basically, OH HELL NO!!!

Thank you for that explanation.

The way I see it is that living in a country with a social democracy brings me some nice
perks in my life.
If for some reason I ever lose my job, I wont have to go without a salary in search of a new one.
If I ever fall seriously ill, I won't have to fork out 10s of thousands of Euro's for med care.
I will retire at 65 and enjoy a state-funded pension (topped off with a private one).
My country's law states that everyone is entiteld to at least 4weeks paid vacation/year.
Etc, etc,

Now I just don't see what so bad about that, and why apparently many (mostly republican?)
Americans get revolted just by the thought of living in such a system.
Quite honestly, that's just beyond me!
 
David L
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:59 pm



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 20):
So while socialism may work for you in your country, it doesn't necessarily work in ours.

That's a fair point. The most painful part would be the changeover. Already having social programmes doesn't hurt as much as suddenly starting them because, ultimately, some will suddenly have to start paying for them.
 
Charles79
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:01 pm

KLMCedric,

very good question. I prefer socialism myself and I'm baffled at how my fellow Americans associate the term with communism or something along those lines. Truth is, ALL Americans have benefited throughout their lives from government programs, and they could be better off if we could get around that erroneous concept of equaling socialism to welfare and keeping up lazy dead beats who mooch off the work of others. We have a great country, no doubt about that, but I look around and the average person is not happy. In many cities salaries for the middle class are barely enough to cover the costs of housing, food, health care, etc. Where it used to be that you could make a career out of basic jobs such as cashiers, bank tellers, teachers or airport agents now these jobs barely pay to cover the cost of the commute alone! Healthcare costs are way out of touch with reality, and beyond the 40M Americans without insurance millions more are underinsured or are faced with huge bills if something goes wrong. Our education system is on the tank in most cities, our infrastructure is becoming obsolete real fast and because of our inexplicable affinity with the private car and suburbia most people now spend a good chunk of their lives commuting to/from work without viable mass transit alternatives in many parts of the country. Add to that the fact that we work longer hours and take much less vacation and you see why the average person is not happy with the current situation.

I'm not going to say that socialism would cure all of the above but certainly a more socialist mindset would help. Folks in the US always joke about how much more in taxes the Europeans pay but they fail to realize that in many of those countries the taxes are put to good use for the benefit of everyone in society. Governments can afford to offer better infrastructure, subsidize mass transit systems, offer better education (and often cheaper college education) and so on. Are they perfect? Of course not (and I've heard many Europeans complain about their own governments, a lot!). But look at some of the countries that are the perennial best places to live in and their government structure does resemble a socialist one.

The counter argument I always hear is that the private citizens have better judgement and will spend their money wiser, that's why we should keep lower taxes and a small government. That's true to an extent, but the private citizen is selfish (human nature) and will not willingly donate money do things to improve the society around him, things like education, bridges, programs for the blind, or even a social worker to go and visit the elderly that are left alone by their families. Americans are indeed very generous, no doubt, but it's far more efficient to have a central government to re-distribute the wealth.

Which brings to my final point, the re-distribution of wealth. That's a sore subject for anyone, as folks always contend that if I make my money I should keep it, if the next person didn't make as much then too bad. Well, the concept here is that you made your money because society enabled you to. The country provided you with a safe environment in which you could receive an education then attend college and so on (and even if you never touched a grant or scholarship your college, private or not, existed in part thanks to government grants). Now that you have a business (or work for one) it makes money thanks to society, so it's only fair to give back a bit to ensure the rest of the system works. Like I said at the opening, socialism is not about keeping lazy people alive or keeping up ghettos or anything like that. It's about society helping itself to prosper, stay safe, and move on (which is why I also believe is mandatory service for at least a year, not necessarily military as an all-volunteer army has proven to work better, but doing jobs in the cities and towns to get closer to how our country and community works).

I know, I know, I'll get flamed left and right here for sounding utopian and whatever but that's what I believe in. This is my country, I love it, and I only want the best for it, not just what's best only for me.

And in case anyone wonders, I'm not a Democrat (nor a Republican); I'm an Independent voter and proud of it.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:32 pm



Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
Don't you work for a government agency - a school district?

I do... The Government has put so many rules and restrictions on schools these days in order to fix them that they keep screwing them up. I teach auto tech and if I taught everything the state and federal government told me to teach I would never get a chance to teach kids how to fix cars. In theory I am supposed to teach logistics and truck dispatching along with auto tech (It is in the regulations) .

The government has tried to lump all educators into one group making the same rules for all of us. We all have to be highly qualified but that doesn't mean anything. I once taught auto with a man who wasn't "highly qualified". He was 60 years old had owned a repair shop for 28 years and had been a 3rd Engineer on the merchant marine before that. He was a storehouse of info and is a great mechanic. The kids loved him and they learned a lot. He was fired because of NCLB he wasn't highly qualified. The teacher they hired to replace him was "highly qualified" but had no experience working on cars in the real world. He had the worst classroom management I ever saw. The students complained about how little he actually knew about fixing cars. He was fired at the end of the year for drug use, providing alcohol to students, and theft. The kids didn't learn crap from him that year, but he was "qualified" What happened to the "unqualified" teacher? he teaches heavy truck and diesel equipment repair at a local college.

To maintain my teacher certificate I am forced to take classes for continuing education. That in theory is great. I teach auto so it would make sense that I could take auto classes at a local college to stay on top of the industry and pass that info to my students. No those classes don't count. If I take classes in math, science, reading, etc. they do. So The government makes me take classes that do not make me a better teacher in my subject area.

I never was anti government until I saw how the intrusion in our schools make things worse. Everyone talks about the "good ole' days" when America's schools were good. Those were the days before the federal and state government told us what to teach and how to teach it. Back in the days before excessive regulation schools were better.
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ScarletHarlot
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:53 pm

KLMCedric,

I think there is a fundamental belief in the US, a focus on the individual, that helps to cause socialism to be a bad word. Here in the US (I am a Canadian living in the States) the national motto is Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. In Canada, it's Peace, Order and Good Government. Note the individualistic nature of the American one and the more socially oriented tone of the Canadian one. For me, this kind of sums it up.

In the States, the rights of the individual come first, not the rights of society. This has its benefits - it's a great place to get ahead and make an excellent living. Anybody who works hard can make something of themselves and be celebrated for it. But on the other hand, that person generally views his or her achievements as their own - "I worked hard for it, I have the money, why shouldn't I buy this or do that?" Consumerism is rampant. It's a very 'me me me' society. If the focus is on the individual getting ahead, the concept of giving up some of what you've worked for to help others less fortunate is viewed with suspicion. "If he worked hard he could have what I have. Why should I help that lazy so and so? I worked hard for what I have."

Socialism through charitable giving is acceptable - because it's a choice and you don't have to give up your income. Through government it is not.

I think it's a fundamental way of thinking in the US. It bothers me because I feel that it should be a basic human right to have a reasonable standard of living and the way to assure that is through good, responsible government. But the individualistic way of thinking in the US also causes politicians to be in government for themselves, not to serve. It's really kinda messed up.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
slider
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
It's called the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Not just that, but the Law of Inevitable Outcome. When government is involved, you know it will get screwed up.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
Conversely, most of Europe misunderstands the American approach.

I agree with this completely…of all the times I’ve been to Europe, speak with European colleagues, friends, etc, as close as we are in so many respects as Western first world nations, there is a noticeable gap in fundamental understanding. Heck, there is that gap HERE these days and I think the chasm has grown wider and more pronounced as the lines between left and right have been blurred.

I’d say that the understanding varies because of the foundations of how we were founded. American Founders took the best of Western Enlightenment, melded it and shaped it into a new mixture that had never been undertaken before. The notion that rights are God-given is the central idea and that government derive their powers from the people. The challenge to us as citizens is to hold those elected accountable. Without that, as we’re seeing clearly today, elected officials become corrupt, blatantly violate the will of the people because the people don’t fight back. The very ones who HAVE the power refuse to wield it for the betterment of their country. Europeans in general are more agnostic, and while I’m not trying to stir up a debate about church/state separation, there is an undeniable tone of our nation in terms of recognition of a transcendent cause, a selfless larger entity of community, united in God-given rights, the basic equation of liberty and freedom and free will that someone can use their skills to their betterment, or not at all but that the outcome is up to them. Freedom of opportunity, not of outcome. We all know it’s not been perfect and not everyone has had that equality of opportunity, but there is no other nation on earth that so openly and humbly admits those flaws and still carries on.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 24):
I'm not going to say that socialism would cure all of the above but certainly a more socialist mindset would help. Folks in the US always joke about how much more in taxes the Europeans pay but they fail to realize that in many of those countries the taxes are put to good use for the benefit of everyone in society.

I totally disagree and I think we’ll agree to disagree. That “mindset” is exactly what’s wrong with America….I think in having read your thoughts, as well intended as they are, that you have a benevolent view of how your government spends your taxes. First, it’s YOUR money. Your God-given skills, abilities and talents created it. The benefit to society comes from your fulfilling your role as a responsible citizen and person, a contributing law-abiding member of society. The problem is that we have lowered the bar to accept non-producers, law-breakers (in Congress, the business world, private and public sector) for so long that the mindset has taken root that somehow, Uncle Sam can be the cure-all catch-all womb to tomb, cradle to grave security blanket for everyone.

That is completely antithetical to the very essence of what our republic was founded upon and even remote contemplation of such a thought should be hateful to Americans.

Also at the bottom line, there is a moral root to why socialism is wrong. It kills the human spirit…it equivocates and equalizes people, makes them all equal sheep and lemmings, simply as widgets and not individuals. Our nation believes in the power of the individual, and when you negate that, when you deaden that part of the human spirit, NO form of government and no nation can really survive, thrive or endure. It’s against human nature. People are born to be free, but many will accept security and comfort over the engaging struggle for liberty and the exercise thereof.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:17 pm



Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
Why does this word, and what it stands for have such a negative connotation in the USA.

Most Americans see Socialism as the first step towards Communism.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
How about because it's a complete and utter failure in the vast majority of places where it is implemented.

Socialism is only a failure when paired with corruption, as it was in the Soviet Union and some other Communist countries. Socialism as it is used in Europe has been very successful.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

Socialism=Reds do that! OMG! It's evil!

Exactly.

Quoting David L (Reply 19):
And the Europeans who love social democracy seem to be the ones who have lived under it.

Not necessarily true. Switzerland has a large socialist movement these days and is not a Socialist government. Same with many other Europe countries.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 24):
very good question.

And an amazing answer. Everything I wanted to say, said for me, far more elegantly. I salute you, Sir.

TIS
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baroque
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
Really? Then why do you treat them so horribly? Bad insurance, no vacation... I guess keeping workers ignorant keeps them in line.

A highly selective criticism.

Probably true Aaron, but the counter arguments are tending to be even more selective.

The most amusing of the assertions is that government is by definition inefficient. This week it would be difficult to imagine a government being capable of the cluster F that private enterprise has managed having twisted many arms to get itself into a regulatory setting where the clust F could prosper in such an alarming fashion.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

That was Winston Churchill, shortly before he was voted out of office by the very same democratic system that awarded no 'points' for the fact that he had probably done more than any other single person to make sure that Germany, Italy, Japan, and Russia (yes, Russia - happy to enter into discussions with anyone who objects to me including them on the Axis side) did not win WW2.

Arguably while Churchill was the right person to beat Hitler (although he made some monumentally bad decisions - E Med invasions after Tunisia was taken for example - Atlee and his socialists were about the only thing that could have kept the UK together after the war ended and the US unceremonially dumped its ally without a penny to its name, and with its industry half in ruins and the other half devoted to making munitions which were hardly needed in late 1945.

In Australia, which runs the most efficient operation, the government operated Medibank Private or the privately owned medical insurance funds? There is no reason why government run organizations cannot be run efficiently. That some (many) are not reflects on those in control rather than the concept of state run operations.

As to the efficiency of many private enterprise operations, the prosecution rests its case yr Honour. (This is an international forum so I will not list the excursions of private industry in Aus that has lost us ALL billions upon billions, but you could start with Alan Bond, move to C Skase and then.....)
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:27 pm

Sorry NAV20, but it doesn't seem you should talk about the european governments without having the slightest clue.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
However, I reckon myself that Europeans tend to misunderstand the US system of government.

Some people do misunderstand. As is true the other way round.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
'separation of powers' - basically a system under which neither the President nor the Congress could assume or exercise total power.

It is the same over here in Europe (germany as example), except that we have basically two institutions which do control each other. With the third being the president to have the ultimate power to sign or not to sign a law.
It is exactly the same structure as in the US, just we don't tend to hand over so much power to one person (US president).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):

Conversely, most of Europe misunderstands the American approach.

No, they don't.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
And has instead tended towards an arguably more 'democratic' system under which a government, once elected with a majority, can do pretty well what the hell it it likes until it is voted out of power.

That is totally nonsense. If one house of represantatives says yes to a law, the second house with often totally different majorities (due to the federalism) has to agree and finally the president has to sign.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
On the other, any unscrupulous European prime minister, so long as he enjoys a parliamentary majority, can pass laws granting himself universal powers. Hitler being the most recent example, and Putin very possibly being the next one.

That Hitler could to it was due to the Weimarer constitution and the situation in the country. See my explanation above.


Please, NAV20, do me and all Europeans one favor. If you don't know anything about the system, don't explain and interpret and compare it to the VERY arguable democratic one of the US. Must be the only system where one can be elected president with the minority of votes...
 Yeah sure


And before anyone whines around: No, I don't have any problem with the US system. I don't care as it doesn't affect me too much.
 
AirCop
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:30 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 25):
NCLB

This what happens when legislators get involved in something they know nothing about. Let teachers teach; sometimes learning actually is the product of letting teachers teach, since they know their students best.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 25):
The government makes me take classes that do not make me a better teacher in my subject area.

Have you directed your concerns towards your elected representative. Some states, Utah and Arizona come to mind, are exploring ways to drop out of NCLB, unless changes are made.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
Gosh when have Americans everr been the greatest workers in the world?

Wondering that myself..

Quoting Slider (Reply 27):
Our nation believes in the power of the individual, and when you negate that, when you deaden that part of the human spirit,

So many companies/government agencies today operate contrary to your statement.
 
baroque
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:32 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
The most amusing of the assertions is that government is by definition inefficient.

Sorry to quote myself, but right on cue I went to read the letters in Sats SMH and find:

http://www.smh.com.au/letters/?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
What did the managers of the Future Fund do last financial year that industry fund managers, almost to a man, appear to have scandalously failed to do?

The Future Fund generated a positive return of 1.54 per cent last financial year. Is not the term "safe haven" in the fund managers' manual? And by what mystery of the universe did only the Future Fund appear to apply this blindingly obvious concept when it was so profoundly applicable?


Well of course the Future Fund is run by Aus Federal government (or an agency of said government to be more precise) and so is "socialist" whereas of course the comparison industry funds are privately run. Again I rests me case!
 
baroque
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:37 pm

And here is another model that perhaps ought to be put in the mix. And very popular this will be!!!

http://business.smh.com.au/business/...rides-the-storm-20081010-4yft.html
Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index, in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in the previous year.

Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion). This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.

What's more, all this growth has come from a model of lending that rejects interest payments and shuns speculation and heavy borrowing.

In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that has brought the West's financial system to its knees, and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.

Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.

The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative is one of a few lenders offering the service.
 
astuteman
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
Prior to our discussion, as far as I could tell, before our talk, all the way from Manhattan Beach Primary to UCLA, they'd been taught that socialism=communism.

The difficulties start when the appelation is used to cover a whole spectrum of legislatia, which contain some element of socialism, but the appelation is considered only in a "black-and-white" "socialism=communism" sense

Quoting David L (Reply 19):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I have lived and worked in Europe, the former soviet union, Vietnam, and a variety of other places. I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.

But you're lumping very different types of government together.

 checkmark 
Like this

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
There is no reason why government run organizations cannot be run efficiently

Indeed.
My memory of the Thatcher years is that the bulk of the industries that were privatised were FORCED to be run efficiently FIRST in order to make them desirable as private investments

Rgds
 
iairallie
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
We up here shake our heads every time at those statements...

As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

Socialism=Reds do that! OMG! It's evil!

I understand what socialism is and I still don't like it. I was born in BC.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 15):

Today's Republicans aren't real Republicans. They are the old tax and spend Democrats. The Republicans need to spend less time worrying about social issues and get back to what made them great; small government and Conservative financial principles.

Agreed and they piss me off. If only the alternative wasn't worse. The choice these days is vote Democrat (republican candiate) or liberal extremist (democrat candidate). When did this shift to the left occur in the Republican party? It is not working for the Republicans or for the country, all the GOP is doing is alienating their traditional base. Allowing McCain to be our nominee is the biggest betrayal ever.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
Gosh when have Americans everr been the greatest workers in the world?

Productivity data ranks the US very high. Our innovation has made us a world leader.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 21):
It's been a long time since Republicans at the national level actually practiced what they preached.

Agreeed and it pisses off conservatives like me.

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 22):
If for some reason I ever lose my job, I wont have to go without a salary in search of a new one.

neither will I it's called unemployment insurance.

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 22):
If I ever fall seriously ill, I won't have to fork out 10s of thousands of Euro's for med care.

Neither will I. I have health insurance.

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 22):
I will retire at 65 and enjoy a state-funded pension (topped off with a private one).

I will have a private pension, 401k, personal savings and social security at the same age.

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 22):
Now I just don't see what so bad about that, and why apparently many (mostly republican?)
Americans get revolted just by the thought of living in such a system.

It's bad because they have to be funded somehow. It's bad because they remove choice from the individual. It's bad because they are systems for wealth redistribution and I believe it is wrong to steal from those who have worked hard for their wealth and redistribute it to those who are unwilling to work. It's bad because systems like that remove the natural incentive to achieve and be sucessful.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 24):
I'm baffled at how my fellow Americans associate the term with communism or something along those lines.

I know there is a difference many of us do. I still dislike both of those systems.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
There is no reason why government run organizations cannot be run efficiently

Indeed.

"Market efficiency" is often reduced to managerial efficiency, but that is not what it is meant by it. Market efficiency is about efficient allocation of resources. What gets produced, how much gets produced, how it gets allocated, etc. In a market economy, this is determined by the price mechanism. Socialism simply doesn't have a system, this being left up for bureaucrats to determine. Often this means egalitarianism, which is distributionism with no regards to value and efficient use.

What you could say as far as managerial efficiency is that markets sooner or later eliminate inefficient management through bankruptcy and liquidation. Thus whatever is still worth something and salvageable is picked up by other people. Governments tend to "try to fix" or "operate on" the problem, which because of politics and the fact that politicians simply don't have the background to know how to make proper decisions tends to last a long time and still yield less than optimal results.

Management is a huge issue even in private companies. It is evident today more than ever that there are numerous good examples of awful management even in private companies. Unfortunately, these guys are getting billions of dollars from the government, while the good ones aren't getting anything.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:11 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
How about because it's a complete and utter failure in the vast majority of places where it is implemented.

Like all of Western Europe is a total failure?

I see...
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:16 pm



Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
Only just a minute ago a saw a man, on a Mc Cain convention, ventilating his fear about how
those "socialist hooligans" are about to take over the country.

I saw that same clip. That man wouldn't know a "socialist hooligan" if he were right in front of him. He comes from a generation where socialists = reds (communists).

People tend to be loathe (hate, feel uncertain about) things they don't understand.
You can't cure stupid
 
iairallie
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:18 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Like all of Western Europe is a total failure?

I see...

As pointed out many times above those are not pure socialist countries. They use various forms of social-democracy.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
klmcedric
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:24 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 35):
neither will I it's called unemployment insurance.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 35):
Neither will I. I have health insurance.

Well, IMO that's not the same because you're talking about private insurance companies.
They take care of their own interests in the first place, and will try to screw you over every
chance they get. They will do indebt investigations in order to find out if there's a way they don't
have to pay up when you need them to. When it comes to health, I for one prefer to rely on a
government funded healt care system who will reimburse me time after time, no questions asked.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 35):
It's bad because they have to be funded somehow. It's bad because they remove choice from the individual. It's bad because they are systems for wealth redistribution and I believe it is wrong to steal from those who have worked hard for their wealth and redistribute it to those who are unwilling to work. It's bad because systems like that remove the natural incentive to achieve and be sucessful.

I think that's an exagerated response. If that where true it would imply that there would be no rich people in Europe, nor would there be successful people and no one would achieve anything. I don't think that's exactly the case.
 
klmcedric
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 39):


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Like all of Western Europe is a total failure?

I see...

As pointed out many times above those are not pure socialist countries. They use various forms of social-democracy

I'm not talking about pure socialism here, but about social- democracies.

And I don't think people from the Republican camp should consider Obama a pure socialist,
but merely an individual who perhaps, if elected, would try to introduce some social
implementations like a renewed national healtcare for instance.

When I look at CNN, it seems like Republicans think that if Obama wins, the USA is gonna
go communist overnight.

So I guess there goes my initial question again, instead of just not agreeing with it, why is there such loathing among many towards socialist idea's.
 
AGM100
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:40 pm

It does not matter if we loath it ... it is happening anyway. The government is getting further and further entrenched in our systems and it is being welcomed by short sighted citizens. The democrats will win major power in this election .. and they are socialists period. What we are seeing now is a clash between capitalism and socialism. Socialist ideas created this problem and now they are intending to fix it . They broke it ... now they want all kinds of power to fix it .. what am I missing ?

I can not argue that there is not some good sides to socialism , I understand the merits. But it is counter to the risky and adventures nature of the "American Spirit". There is no perfect system , all systems have there down sides. Our down side is that you may indeed fail and you probably will if you are taking risks. Our bright side is that you can start over and fight your way back. Fighting your way back is hard enough without having to fight with the central government all the time.

Sadly a good portion of our population has gotten soft , spoiled and is looking for big daddy to help them. Now they go vote for the candidate who offers them the most. Its a death spiral and one that we are definately in .

Personally why dont we just go with Communism it is even better! !, just go work at the factory come home to your government apartment drink booze and hang out. No worries , nice and safe... live and die without any risks at all.!
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
AGM100
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 42):
When I look at CNN, it seems like Republicans think that if Obama wins, the USA is gonna
go communist overnight.

Not so much about Obama , but all three of our Federal branches of government will be ruled by those who have socialist ideas. We will have no balance of power , and as it looks right now not even filibuster power to the opposition. I do not blame it on the democrats ! , the GOP has created its own demise.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
dl021
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:13 pm

in most cases socialism acts as a disincentive to advance. The only way it works is to force everyone to accept the same standards and it actually puts road blocks up in front of people who'd like to succeed.

Socialized medicine requires that everyone play that game. Obama is being disengenuous by saying people can keep their own plan under his....in almost every nation with nationalized health care it's illegal to own private medical insurance or use it to pay for treatment.

Socialized control of work places leaves you with situations like France's where my uncle was legally prevented from working past a certain age. It prevented employers from increasing productivity from workers, and in many places make the workplace as inefficient as any governmetn.

Socialism requires that the producers be stripped of the proceeds of their work to pay for the non-producers, and it makes it law. It allows people to remain non-producers without penalty in terms of living conditions or lifestyle....hell, people are fighting to get to Spain and enjoy their benefits. Literally.

Socialism actually causes unemployment to go higher because employers cannot afford as many employees for whom they have to pay the benefits the goverment promised. Socialist leaders promise to take from the producers to give to the rest, who don't take the risks or spend the time and effort that the producers did.

Socialism has a large and often unspoken dedication to "social justice" where the people who have more are portrayed as greedy and undeserving (perhaps another remnant of the feudal and aristocratic societies where inheritance was the path to power until this last 80 years or so) and is outmoded now that most governments are democracies (in the west at least).

Socialism is an incentive to become criminal in nature. Black money is a pervasive and dishonorable (and hypocritical since most people who hide their money still demand the services for which that money was scheduled to be forcibly taken to pay). In Brasil just this week an otherwise very nice lady overcharging for a decent condo demanded her rent in cash because she didn't want the tax people seeing the money wired to her bank.

The rich will always have their ways of keeping....but the rest have their opportunities reduced, and their lives actually oppressed with the demands of the people who want something they have but aren't willing to work or risk for it.

If you only deserve to make minimum wage, why should you live with the same comforts as someone who learned how to earn, then risked and worked to earn a real income?

Life's not fair,. and socialists seem to feel that it can be so.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
For the record: Canada has socialist programs (that do work despite what some propaganda says),

Except that thousands come to the US every year for immediate surgeries that they'd have to wait for in Canada. And it's bankrupting the nation trying to pay for all that crap. It's easier with fewer people to pay for at first, but the retirement plans will eventually kill you...look at the airlines.
Politicians keep promising more to get elected and people don't look past their noses to see how that's going to get paid for....if the nation slows it's population growth it'll never pay for what it's promising to people today.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
I think American Joe associates social democracies with socialism/communism, countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Finland are all social democracies and I don't think you could call any of them failure's

American "Joes"... ok...Norway....small population, large state oil income, less defence spending (who has been protecting and nurturing European democracies for 60 plus years?) Sweden, Denmark and Finland are all having various levels of difficulty financially, just like Germany France and UK,, and the recent problems with markets has almost bankrupted Iceland (who is now turning for financial assistance to Russia....holy cow).


Socialism, or socialized democracy (nice way to lessent the impact) is not communism....it's not even close. Communism is absolutely impossible with more than two people.....even then it's hard. Socialism is doable for a while and that's the problem. People trade prosperity for security with that.

I know that some will retort with "well look how well free market capitalism works now" but these cycles happen, usually due to overregulation or underregulation....the right combo is difficult to find and impossible to maintain with politicians monkeying all the time with the controls, and people getting blinded by greed....not just wall streeters but main streeters who want more and more but don't think they ought to have to pay for it.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
iairallie
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 42):
I'm not talking about pure socialism here, but about social- democracies.

Then maybe your thread title should read "Why do Americans hate social-democracies?"
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
David L
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 28):
Quoting David L (Reply 19):
And the Europeans who love social democracy seem to be the ones who have lived under it.

Not necessarily true. Switzerland has a large socialist movement these days and is not a Socialist government. Same with many other Europe countries.

Ah, you've also fallen into the trap of equating socialism with social democracy.  Smile
 
P3Orion
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:35 pm

To put it as basic and simple as I can, I don't want the Federal Government to be my mommy and daddy.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
slider
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:35 pm



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 42):
When I look at CNN, it seems like Republicans think that if Obama wins, the USA is gonna
go communist overnight.

Given the hints of Marxism in his background which have been summarily glossed over, his voting record, etc, there is reason for trepidation.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 31):
So many companies/government agencies today operate contrary to your statement.



Such as?

Bear in mind, there is a difference between a help up and a handout. And government excels in not helping PEOPLE as they do demographic special interest groups or voting blocks.
 
A342
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RE: Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?

Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:44 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 44):
Sweden, Denmark and Finland are all having various levels of difficulty financially, just like Germany France and UK

So you don't think that the USA's $10 trillion debt is a problem?
Exceptions confirm the rule.

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