victrola
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Employee Free Choice Act

Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:05 pm

I was wondering about why the subject of the Employee Free Choice Act hasn't seemed to come up in the Presidential election.

Supposedly, this act which is supported by Barak Obama and the rest of the democrats would stipulate that unions no longer need to win a majority vote in a secret ballet to become certified at a company. All they would have to do is to intimidate a majority of workers to sign union cards.

This is outrageous. Let's here some of you union supporters out there try to justify this nonsense.

The secret ballot is the best way to assure that workers are not intimidated by the union or by employers when the question of unionizaion of a workplace comes up.

If I were the Republicans I would be be hitting hard on this issue.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:18 pm

i think they would have to play this one just right if they were to use it.

Lately, 'joe the plumber' has been championed by the McCain camp. A lot(and i'm not saying all) of people like him that Repubs are trying to win over likely support unions to a certain extent, so they may in fact be for this. If the McCain camp goes on the record and makes it an issue, it may lose them the vote of the coveted blue collar workers who feel unionization is a good thing and that more unions and making it easier to start a union is a good thing. How would they spin looking out for the common man when it may make it easier for unions to start up with this bill?

So if this bill were to pass, would employers have the right to see who actually signed the union cards or would all they be allowed to know was that enough people signed them?
 
AGM100
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 1):
So if this bill were to pass, would employers have the right to see who actually signed the union cards or would all they be allowed to know was that enough people signed them?

They would know , as would union bosses and fellow employees from what I understand. I guess that your card actually becomes public knowledge under the new rules ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
slider
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:10 pm

I can't believe this topic isn't getting more play.
 
victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:26 pm

i think that ScrubbsYWG has a point. The major states in play are Ohio and Pennsylvania where the unions are strong. So McCain can't really go out bring up union issues without sinking his campaign in these states.

I'm still baffled why this issue does not seem to be more contriversial. I personally think you can't get a more Orwellian name than "Employee Free Choice Act" for this disgusting piece of legislation.
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:03 am

I thought congress killed this a few months ago.

therefore it would be a dead issue.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:28 am



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 5):
thought congress killed this a few months ago.

therefore it would be a dead issue.

It was passed in the House by a large margin. Killed in the Senate, a threatened veto by Bush, if it passed. It was never brought to a vote in the Senate. If the Democrats take a bigger number of seats Tuesday, it may come alive again. Anything that makes it easier to unionize has my support. The deck has been stacked against labor for too long. A little help maybe in the offing if the Democrats win.
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sccutler
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:01 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
Anything that makes it easier to unionize has my support. The deck has been stacked against labor for too long. A little help maybe in the offing if the Democrats win.

I'd suggest that you acquaint yourself with how the law works, now, and as proposed under this legislation, before making a broad declaration as you have done.

There are many valuable and productive things unions *can* do, but their decline is the direct and inevitable result of the persistent refusal of most unions' elected management to recognize that their success, and the success of the companies for which their members work, are NOT mutually exclusive.

The deck is not in any way "stacked against labor" at all; the NLRB and its charge, in fact, strongly favor organized labor. This is reality. Labor's failure to honor its commitment to the rank and file workers is fact, as well.

If you believe that there is no need for a secret ballot in union representation elections, is there any reason that we should not also eliminate the secret ballot in general elections as well? Why not?

Ask yourself why would one object to a secret ballot, unless one believed they could not win in a fair race...
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kc135topboom
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:08 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
Anything that makes it easier to unionize has my support.

Why?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
The deck has been stacked against labor for too long. A little help maybe in the offing if the Democrats win.

If the deck is stacked against unions, it is the unions fault. Today, about 15% of the US labor force is unionized. Unions have been trying to unionize almost every company, city, state, or other employers in the US since the 1960s (when over 40% of the US was unionized). Over 95% of the time, employees have turned down elections to unionize.

If unions are allowed to "conduct" their balloting, without a secret ballot, then the union thugs will intimadate people into voting for being unionized.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 7):
the NLRB and its charge, in fact, strongly favor organized labor.

Correct. Today, all attempts to unionize a company is run by the NLRB, who conducts the elections. They do not allow management or the unions to intimadate workers while they are voting. This systems works and works well. If the system isn't broken now, why do the unions want to "fix" it?

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 7):
Labor's failure to honor its commitment to the rank and file workers is fact

Correct. To prove that, look at the IAM's 2 month long strike against Boeing. What did the rank and file really win? They lost 2 months of pay and benefits they will never recover.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 7):
If you believe that there is no need for a secret ballot in union representation elections, is there any reason that we should not also eliminate the secret ballot in general elections as well?

 bigthumbsup 
 
victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:57 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
The deck has been stacked against labor for too long. A little help maybe in the offing if the Democrats win.

Typical mindless union response. You didn't even bother to respond to the question of fairness of the secret ballot.

Unions are in the position where they are today because they have a mentality of entitlement that is completely out of sync with economic reality.
 
comorin
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:23 pm



Quoting Victrola (Thread starter):
need to win a majority vote in a secret ballet

No need for secrecy. But Ballet dancing takes years to master, so better to do it after the voting.
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:01 pm

I think that you need a secret ballot, but I don't think that if you don't vote it should count as a "no" vote.

If you don't care enough to cast a ballot you don't care enough if there is a union.

I think it should be the majority of the votes cast.
 
slider
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:38 pm

A person’s right to organize is protected by the Constitution—I am a big believer of freedom of association. But the downside is that that association often becomes harmful to its members whom they are to be advocates for.

Labor in this country has run amok for decades, violated laws left and right (campaign financing, PACs) not to mention the not-so-subtle shakedown tactics that they engage in. The Boeing strike is the perfect example of how not to do thing---they think they won. They already had a solid offer on the table and now they did win the battle, but they’ll lose the war when Boeing eliminates jobs in SEA longterm and relocates final assembly work.

The “Free Choice Act” is nothing of a sort. Private secret ballots are a staple and trademark of a free society and democratic organization. They should call this act what it is—a shamefully transparent ploy to recruit more Democratic voters.
 
victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:25 pm

What amazes me is how such a vast majority of the so called "Democratic" party can advocate such a position. I don't care if you are pro or anti union, there is absolutely nothing democratic about this proposal.

Unfortunately it looks like our probable future President is all for this disgraceful law.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:20 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 9):
Typical mindless union response. You didn't even bother to respond to the question of fairness of the secret ballot.

Unions are in the position where they are today because they have a mentality of entitlement that is completely out of sync with economic reality.

The economic reality of who, Walmart? You try to unionize them, they close the store. They are union in Communist China. They could not screw over the Chinese government like they do in the US. We will see what the new Democratic President does for the worker. If he does nothing, he will be still be even with George W.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 9):
You didn't even bother to respond to the question of fairness of the secret ballot.

Do not even mention fairness. I love the way you guys cry foul when someone wants to return the favor and stack the deck against the corporations, too bad.
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sccutler
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:59 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
The economic reality of who, Walmart? You try to unionize them, they close the store.

But for every Wal Mart, there are thousands of smaller businesses which lack the size and clout to take a hard-ass stance like Wal Mart. These businesses, the ones which employ most workers, will be gutted by this ill-considered legislative abomination.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
Do not even mention fairness. I love the way you guys cry foul when someone wants to return the favor and stack the deck against the corporations, too
bad.

OK, lotta noise there, but bottom line: what is your objection to a secret ballot election, conducted under strict rules by an impartial entity?
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slider
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting SCCutler (Reply 15):
OK, lotta noise there, but bottom line: what is your objection to a secret ballot election, conducted under strict rules by an impartial entity?

Thank you for getting to the heart of the matter...I'd love to ehar a response to this, even from the most rock-ribbed pro-union supporters. Because those die-hards, sometimes zealots, should know firsthand about intimidation tactics.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

An open ballot CANNOT be justified in a free society. Period.
 
victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
The economic reality of who, Walmart? You try to unionize them, they close the store

Why shouldn't they have the right to close their store? It belongs to them, they are the ones who put up the capital to open the store. They are the ones taking the risk by investing their money in the store in the first place. If they don't like their return on investment, they are free to pull out and invest their money elsewhere. Nobody should be forced to run a business against their own will.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:10 pm



Quoting SCCutler (Reply 15):
OK, lotta noise there, but bottom line: what is your objection to a secret ballot election, conducted under strict rules by an impartial entity?

I have no objection to secret ballots and fairness, never said I did. I threw out that I support more chances for working people to unionize, that is all. The free choice act as wriiten maynot be perfect. Never said it was. The Free Choice Act is a wake up call to business, obviously some in congress think that organized labor needs some help from the intimedation tactics of big business. For Example Walmart. They do meet the standards for Big Business, do they not?
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
An open ballot CANNOT be justified in a free society. Period.

Surely, you are not that naive, to think that a free open and Democratic Society exists on company property, are you?  Yeah sure
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:33 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 17):

Why shouldn't they have the right to close their store? It belongs to them, they are the ones who put up the capital to open the store. They are the ones taking the risk by investing their money in the store in the first place. If they don't like their return on investment, they are free to pull out and invest their money elsewhere. Nobody should be forced to run a business against their own will.

Once again, I will ask the question, are you that naive to think that Walmart does not use imtimidation and anti-union tactics when dealing with their employees? Do you think that Walmart would not close a profitable store? They did it in Canada a year or so ago, I was up there when it was in the papers. Profit had nothing to do with it, they voted union. Now in your world, that maybe justification, not in mine.
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victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:01 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 20):
Once again, I will ask the question, are you that naive to think that Walmart does not use imtimidation and anti-union tactics when dealing with their employees? Do you think that Walmart would not close a profitable store? They did it in Canada a year or so ago, I was up there when it was in the papers. Profit had nothing to do with it, they voted union. Now in your world, that maybe justification, not in mine.

They closed the store because it no longer looked like a good investment to them. You can't force people to run businesses that they don't want to run. If workers have the right to withhold their labor because they believe the salaries they are offered are inadequate, then the business owner also has a right to shut down if he doesn't believe profits are adequate.

You pro union people still don't realize that the world does not owe you a living. If you want to make a good living it is your responsability to make yourself valuable in the marketplace.

You also don't seem to understand that the secret ballot is the best way to protect workers from intimidation from both sides.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:15 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 21):
They closed the store because it no longer looked like a good investment to them. You can't force people to run businesses that they don't want to run. If

I have a deal for you, it is a seaside cottage in North Dakata. It no longer looked like a good investment to them? get real. Walmart is the most expert business there is at picking locations and all of a sudden after the union vote it was no longer a good investment to them? I now have a bridge for you also.
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:53 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act


Here is the link for the Free choice Act. Two sides to every story.
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victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:20 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
I have a deal for you, it is a seaside cottage in North Dakata. It no longer looked like a good investment to them? get real. Walmart is the most expert business there is at picking locations and all of a sudden after the union vote it was no longer a good investment to them? I now have a bridge for you also.

You are the one who needs to get real. If you understood anything about business you would understand that the dynamics of the situation changes once you bring a union into the picture. Your costs will go up. Your business model has changed. Anyway, once again it is their perogative to shut down the store for whatever reasons they want. Get over it.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:01 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
The Free Choice Act is a wake up call to business, obviously some in congress think that organized labor needs some help from the intimedation tactics of big business.

Help in the form of intimidation by union thugs?


I don't think so.
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
Help in the form of intimidation by union thugs?

Once again, I will ask a question, Have you ever seen a union thug? I put in 42 union years, I never saw one. Maybe you watched too many movies.
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:55 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 24):
You are the one who needs to get real. If you understood anything about business you would understand that the dynamics of the situation changes once you bring a union into the picture. Your costs will go up. Your business model has changed. Anyway, once again it is their perogative to shut down the store for whatever reasons they want. Get over it.

I guess in your world, there are not two sides to every story, in mine there is. Do you think I need any lessons about business from you, I do not think so. The dynamics change? man that is deep. You mean the dynamics of not being able to control other human beings. Do you mean not being able to pay them dog wages and work them overtime without compensation? Do you mean not being able to fire at will. Do you mean not providing healthcare or any other benefits? Are those the dynamics that will change? They dam well should. I am waiting for the dynamics to change under the new administration to favor the common folk, instead of the business folk who have brought us such a wonderful economy and financial picture. What a wonderful job you all have done.  thumbsdown 
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MaverickM11
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:02 am

The invisible hand is stronger, and businessmen smarter, than anyone in today's unions. This tactic is incredibly frightening but ultimately if successful it will only be a brief pause in the unions' slow decline absent any major structural shift in union organization.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 13):
What amazes me is how such a vast majority of the so called "Democratic" party can advocate such a position.

...after whining about any and every possible inkling of voter fraud in the national election Yeah sure

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
Walmart is the most expert business there is at picking locations and all of a sudden after the union vote it was no longer a good investment to them?

It's certainly possible. If you have a thin profit that is wiped away by increased labor costs, then a profitable business suddenly becomes dead as a doornail.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:37 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
It's certainly possible. If you have a thin profit that is wiped away by increased labor costs, then a profitable business suddenly becomes dead as a doornail.

It is possible, you notice I used Walmart as an example. Walmarts history is not of making blunders in business or location choices. Any other company, maybe, when a store votes union in the Walmart chain and they close it immediatly afterwards? Let us be realistic, what do you think the real reason was? Let us be honest here. Only someone very naive, or someone who will not admit anything could swallow that line about profitability. Once again, intimidation, an example for all to see. Closing that store in Canada was like swatting a fly as far as the effects on profits go for the corporation.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:12 am



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 11):
I think that you need a secret ballot, but I don't think that if you don't vote it should count as a "no" vote.

If you don't care enough to cast a ballot you don't care enough if there is a union.

I think it should be the majority of the votes cast.

Since unions use tactics like personal threats and intimadation, a none vote must be counted as a no vote. The company is not the threat here, the union is.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
Quoting Victrola (Reply 9):
Typical mindless union response. You didn't even bother to respond to the question of fairness of the secret ballot.

Unions are in the position where they are today because they have a mentality of entitlement that is completely out of sync with economic reality.

The economic reality of who, Walmart?

What has it cost you, in union dues and strikes to get where you are now, compaired to non-union workers? The fact is the only people who make out well from unions is the very well paid union management. The shop stewart, union member, etc. get nothing. the company gets nothing. The President of most big unions in the US make much, much more than the POTUS does.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
An open ballot CANNOT be justified in a free society. Period.

Surely, you are not that naive, to think that a free open and Democratic Society exists on company property, are you?

Nor should it. The company owns the property, and all within it. They give you a job to do, and a fair pay rate to do it. they don't pay you for union activites on company time. BTW, you do know that elections to organize a companies workers are run by the NLRB, not the copmpany or the union.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
Have you ever seen a union thug? I put in 42 union years, I never saw one.

Then open your eyes. Have you ever watched what happens to non-union employees just trying to go to work during a union strike, where they have to cross the picket line? How about the damage to company products and property just before a work stoppage? If you have been in a union for 42 years, you HAVE scene this. The question is, have you done these things?

The funniest thing about this open ballot bill in Congress is the title, The Employee Fair Choice Act. It should really be called the Union Thug Act. Another funny thing about this act is several of the Congressmen who support this, also are against open union ballots in Mexico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act

Opponents also point to a 2001 letter to Mexican government officials, signed by 11 Democrats who subsequently voted in favor of HR 800, encouraging the "use of secret ballots in all union recognition elections." The letter further states, "we feel that the secret ballot is absolutely necessary in order to ensure that workers are not intimidated into voting for a union they might not otherwise choose," seeming to contradict the spirit of the legislation passed by the House. Congressman George Miller was the lead signatory of the 2001 letter and the sponsor of H.R.800. However, Rep. Miller and the other signatories to the 2001 letter now contend that their demand for a secret ballot election was limited to situations where "workers seek to replace one union with another union," although the letter makes no mention of this case and instead states "all union recognition elections."[17]

Rep. Miller, and co-horts are full of sh!#.
 
slider
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:55 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
Have you ever seen a union thug?

Yeah, I have.

I've witnessed threats, haev been threatened myself, and am intimately all-too familiar with the tactics, both thinly veiled and overt, that some union goons will engage in. I could share a lot of stories...
 
victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:46 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
The dynamics change? man that is deep

Is the concept too complicated for you? I will use simpler words next time.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 29):
Let us be honest here. Only someone very naive, or someone who will not admit anything could swallow that line about profitability. Once again, intimidation, an example for all to see. Closing that store in Canada was like swatting a fly as far as the



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 29):
Only someone very naive, or someone who will not admit anything could swallow that line about profitability. Once again, intimidation, an example for all to see. Closing that store in Canada was like swatting a fly as far as the effects on profits go for the corporation.

Of course it is about profitability. They are in business to make a profit. The unionization is a threat to their profit.

There vast majority of people in this country are making a decent living without having a union. They have achieved this by studying, developing their skills, working their way up from the bottom, and showing initiative and innovation. Sometimes they are unhappy with what they are earning and they go out and find a better paying job. Sometimes they lose their jobs,and they go out and find another job with comparable wages. They can do this because they have developed skills that are in demand and they show initiative. I admit, these must be foreign concepts to people whose only skill is to be able to screw a dome light into a Chevy and believe they have a God given right to $ 30.00 per hour.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:39 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 32):
The unionization is a threat to their profit.

Bingo! The truth at last. I have to give you credit for that one. I guess the truth will out as they say. Now that is a changed dynamic, even I can understand. So you are admitting that a corporation would be so ruthless as to throw people out of work for just profit and lie about the true reason as Walmart did? Oh! the inhumanity of man.

Quoting Victrola (Reply 32):
There vast majority of people in this country are making a decent living

I would take issue with that statement. the middleclass and the lowerclass certainly make up the vast majority of workers here. As far as I can tell Barak Obama was elected by those same people. I certainly do not think anyone in those (lowly) classes are happy with their economic progress, certainly not in the last eight years (that means their wages) I do not think they are happy right now, do you? So union or non-union one would have to disagree with your rosy picture of contentment.  Sad
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:14 am

I was just watching NBC News, Things do not look too good, maybe when the Freedom of Choice act is enacted, or some variation of it, maybe more unions will form and maybe the wages will improve and then maybe the workers will be able to afford non Walmart goods again. Someone on this site mentioned Henry Ford and his formula for success. "I will always pay the workers wages which will enable the workers to buy my products". I(f that is not accurate, please let me know). Not a bad way to think, unfortunatly that way of thinking was lost and unions were formed because of need. Of course according to some, the unions caused this fiasco, you know the companies just had to outsource to stay in business, which of course is bull, like was said above, it is all about profit. Look what that has brought us.  Sad  Sad
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victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:54 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
Of course according to some, the unions caused this fiasco, you know the companies just had to outsource to stay in business, which of course is bull, like was said above, it is all about profit. Look what that has brought us.

We live in a global economy and outsourcing is a part of the way the world works. Perhaps we should do as you union people wish and end all imports and then unionize the entire workforce. Then you union people could drive up wages to your hearts content.

As any economist will tell you, the costs of such policies on our economy as a whole would far outstrip the advantages that would accrue to certain special interest groups such as some union members.

The fact of the matter is that our standard of living would be much lower today if we were forced to puchase goods and services only produced in America by union workers.

I and millions of other Americans are working in jobs in the field of foreign trade. We make our livings in the free market and we have just as much right as anyone else to work. So If I get to keep my job at the expense of some union factory worker so be it. I don't owe him a living and he doesn't owe me a living.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:29 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 35):
As any economist will tell you, the costs of such policies on our economy as a whole would far outstrip the advantages that would accrue to certain special interest groups such as some union members

You must listen to different economists than I do. Certain special interest groups like some union members? That is laughable to the point of being pathetic. Your idea to even put unions into that category is beyond the pale. Take a look around and see who the special interest groups are. do you recall any unions on the list for multi-billion dollar handouts, what world are you in? The global economy? once again look around, what do you see? I see Barak Obama, that is what I see and evidently millions more did also. Let us see, today the government seized contaminated Heperon, I hope I spelled that correctly,( we of the working class have to be careful) another product of the global economy. Lets see Pfizor Drug is making the US workers train the Foreign workers ( who work for lower wages I might add) that are going to replace them. wonderful isn't it? Of course they are close lipped about moving more manufacturing overseas. I guess they need more profits. I find it amazing also after a trip to Mexico to see drugs at 80% off US prices on the shelves there. I guess union labor must cause that also.(the higher US prices) Jan. 20 is coming, and I as well as many millions more cannot wait.  Smile  Smile
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MaverickM11
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:24 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
Certain special interest groups like some union members?

Unions are special interest groups. Period. They may happen to be your special interest group but that doesn't make it any less so.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
Lets see Pfizor Drug is making the US workers train the Foreign workers ( who work for lower wages I might add) that are going to replace them. wonderful isn't it?

What is the number one cause of job loss in the USA today?
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GuitrThree
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:42 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
I find it amazing also after a trip to Mexico to see drugs at 80% off US prices on the shelves there. I guess union labor must cause that also.(

If you find it amazing, you might want to go research the real reason why drugs are cheaper over the boarder before spouting off here and making yourself look like an uneducated partisan hack.

Wait.. I'll help you. The reason drugs are cheaper is because the Governments of other countries, like Mexico and Canada, put artificial price limits on drugs to make it cheaper for their Socialized Government run Healthcare Systems. Our Government, however, is, amazingly so, smart enough to know that if we put these same caps on the drugs, well then the drug companies go out of business, and the drugs we use to save/extend our lives stop being produced. That, and the fact that there are many grey market drugs over the boarder too...

So it has nothing to do with unions, but we, as citizens of the US are subsidising the entire world, like we do with everything else.

So before you go spouting off on anything else you have no clue about, I suggest you research your words before typing them.

Oh.. And Wal Mart has the absolute right to do whatever the hell it wants with its stores. If one becomes Unionized, its their freaking store and if they want it closed they have every right to do so, no matter what reason, whether you like it or not. Who are you to tell them how to do their business?

Here's another clue. Don't like they way they do business, don't shop there. It's that simple. If there are enough people who hold your same opinion, then they will close. Apparently, that just isn't the case.

[Edited 2008-11-06 19:48:00]
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:03 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 38):
you find it amazing, you might want to go research the real reason why drugs are cheaper over the boarder before spouting off here and making yourself look like an uneducated partisan hack.

My My! uneducated partisan hack? Oh vicious aren't we. I am almost speechless by your poor manners. I love the way you company hacks defend the screwing of people. You see I cannot spew that crap like you can. I have heard that so many times, it is ridiculous. By the way, I have a couple of close friends, one a high manager in the drug industry,(poor uneducated hack that I am) and they seem to talk differently than you,(in private of course) so are you full of bull? or do you know more than they do? I do not drink the Kool Aid, that you seem to, or is it stronger? I try to stay within the guidlines of the forum, obviously a refined man like yourself has a little problem with that. Man talk about walking the company line and spewing the company propaganda. I will have to read your Bio.  Embarrassment  Wink
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:12 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 38):
Oh.. And Wal Mart has the absolute right to do whatever the hell it wants with its stores. If one becomes Unionized, its their freaking store and if they want it closed they have every right to do so, no matter what reason, whether you like it or not. Who are you to tell them how to do their business?

Now, now watch your blood pressure, do not put words in my mouth, I never told Walmart how to run their business, I stated that I do not like them and the way they run their business, I suggest you read more carefully in the future before you spout off. I seem to remember something I learned in school about the US. We have freedom of speech here, of course you corporate hack types do not like that, no control, that is bad for you, too bad about that.  Embarrassment  Smile
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GuitrThree
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:49 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 39):
I try to stay within the guidlines of the forum, obviously a refined man like yourself has a little problem with that. Man talk about walking the company line and spewing the company propaganda.

Well, it's obvious you don't follow the guidelines. Read rule H (under detailed rules):

When stating facts, statistics or newsworthy bulletins, please be sure to include an HTML link or reference to a publication. If you are merely providing an opinion, please MENTION THIS in your post. It is each member's responsibility to avoid arguments based on rumors or misinformation.

Of course you don't state any facts related to the 80% cheaper cost of drugs across the boarder. (Nor do you defend anything I say, just attack the messenger.)

Do simple google search of "why are drugs cheaper across the boarder" and you will find hundreds of sources of the reasons why drugs are cheaper, the two most being:

(1) Government Caps
(2) Grey/Black market drugs.


This has been discussed here for ages, along with every other print/TV/Radio discussion on why drugs are cheaper. Yet you, in your opinion, try to relate it to companies here in America trying to rape the consumer by overcharging us, while using overseas workers, with, of course, no thought of adhearing to rule H, as stated above.

Oh, wait, you do, have your "high ranking friends, in private, of course," that have spilled the industry secrets to you.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 39):
am almost speechless by your poor manners.

So it's poor manners to point out when someone is wrong? Ok.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 39):
I will have to read your Bio.

For whatever reason, if you must, feel free.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
I never told Walmart how to run their business, I stated that I do not like them and the way they run their business, I suggest you read more carefully in the future before you spout off.

While you might not have said that Wal Mart should run their business like "you" would like, you certainly said that Barak Obama has the right to say how they should, and is clearly evidenced by what you said here:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):
Do you think I need any lessons about business from you, I do not think so. The dynamics change? man that is deep. You mean the dynamics of not being able to control other human beings. Do you mean not being able to pay them dog wages and work them overtime without compensation? Do you mean not being able to fire at will. Do you mean not providing healthcare or any other benefits? Are those the dynamics that will change? They dam well should. I am waiting for the dynamics to change under the new administration to favor the common folk, instead of the business folk who have brought us such a wonderful economy and financial picture.

And because you believe in this utter nonsense, I then can link you with Obama in wanting to control how Wal Mart runs its affairs.
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victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:21 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
do you recall any unions on the list for multi-billion dollar handouts, what world are you in? The global economy? once again look around, what do you see? I see Barak

Just this week the Big Three auto companies were in Washington begging for multi billion dollar handouts so all the United Auto Workers could keep their jobs.

This is another case of the American taxpayer being forced to hand out billions of dollars for the benefit of overpaid inefficient union workers.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:54 pm



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 41):
When stating facts, statistics or newsworthy bulletins, please be sure to include an HTML link or reference to a publication. If you are merely providing an opinion, please MENTION THIS in your post. It is each member's responsibility to avoid arguments based on rumors or misinformation.

I plead guilty. I think most of us use personal opinion on here. That is what a discussion is all about.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 41):


Do simple google search of "why are drugs cheaper across the boarder" and you will find hundreds of sources of the reasons why drugs are cheaper, the two most being

I would have to say, "baloney" to most of the propaganda from drug companies. we all know the government is our worst enemy when it come to undue influence of lobbyists. I know, I know unions do use lobbyists.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 41):
Oh, wait, you do, have your "high ranking friends, in private, of course," that have spilled the industry secrets to you.

Once again, you mispeak. I never said anyone spilled company secrets. In the normal course of conversation these issues come up. We sit discussing issues just like on here. The drug industry is not innocent, by any means, I know that is hard for you to accept. By the way, one is in the trenchs dealing with the Doctors and one is the higher up, so I do get a little opinion from both angles about these not so ethical companies.
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 42):
Just this week the Big Three auto companies were in Washington begging for multi billion dollar handouts so all the United Auto Workers could keep their jobs.

This is another case of the American taxpayer being forced to hand out billions of dollars for the benefit of overpaid inefficient union workers.

That is ridiculous, what a distortion of fact. They were not there to protect union jobs, they were there to protect their own. They have made the decisions, not the unions, the buck stops here Harry Truman said. He was top man and so it is with the auto companies. They ran them into the ground, not the workers. By the way, are all the Wall Street Tycoons union workers?  Yeah sure
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victrola
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:02 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
That is ridiculous, what a distortion of fact

No this is reality. If the auto companies don't get their multi billion dollar handouts they will go out of business and hundreds of thousands of union workers will be out in the street. The UAW will be decimated. They need this handout to happen just as much as everyone else at the Big Three.

So there is no logical way you can deny that the union won't be a benificiary of this multi billion dollar handout. And there is no way you can deny that the union won't be screwed if it doesn't happen.

This is nothing more than robbery of the American taxpayer to line the pockets of employees of the Big Three, the bulk of whom are union members.
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:39 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 43):
I would have to say, "baloney" to most of the propaganda from drug companies.

Arrggh... It's NOT "baloney," it's FACT that Canada, and Mexico, and almost every other countries Governments place MANDATORY price caps on drugs. That isn't propaganda in any way shape or form. It's simply fact. I'm at a loss to why you can't see this.
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 45):
So there is no logical way you can deny that the union won't be a benificiary of this multi billion dollar handout. And there is no way you can deny that the union won't be screwed if it doesn't happen.

What you say is still a distortion of the facts as far as looking at things that you non-union folks always go on about. There is no doubt that the union would benefit. There is also no doubt that the big money (executives) people would benefit. Last but not least, the sacred stockholders would benefit. It looks like a bailout for everyone does it not?
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WarRI1
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 46):
Arrggh... It's NOT "baloney," it's FACT that Canada, and Mexico, and almost every other countries Governments place MANDATORY price caps on drugs. That isn't propaganda in any way shape or form. It's simply fact. I'm at a loss to why you can't see this.

Why does the US Government not do this for their citizens? Why industry lobbying of course, why can you not understand this? Let us see now, there have been cases of ten thousand percent profits on drugs. Not bad. Let us see, the government buys their drugs at much reduced prices than the ordinary citizen, I know it must be bulk buying. Price rigging, you name it and it is done by the drug industry. Of course, we must return a good profit for those stockholders also. We now must look at the ongoing investigation of undue influence of doctors by the drug industry, a little bribery maybe, you know free food etc. Of course the now widespread hiring of girls who look like cheerleaders as detail people does not hurt either. I wonder what product the Cheerleaders push, no it could not be their looks doing the selling, that would almost seem unethical. Oh, those mandatory price caps on drugs in Mexico etc. I guess the drug companies lose money on those countries? I know, we subsidize the people in Mexico etc. You can try to put on the lipstick, but it is still a pig when all is said and done.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Employee Free Choice Act

Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:17 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
I was just watching NBC News, Things do not look too good, maybe when the Freedom of Choice act is enacted, or some variation of it, maybe more unions will form and maybe the wages will improve and then maybe the workers will be able to afford non Walmart goods again.

Maybe most companies in the US will fold up shop, and open up overseas, poutting millions out of a job.

Get real and get a life. Your employeer owes you nothing more than a good days wages for a good days work.

Look at the auto industry, Ford, GM and others. The UAW has them paying assembly line workers installing lug nuts up to $30 per hour. That is the number one reason why a new F-150 pick-up truck costs well over $30,000. Now Ford, GM and all the others cannot give away their cars and trucks. Why? Because they are priced out of the market. Some of it is their fault, and some of it is the UAW's fault. Now unemployeed UAW workers will be collecting unemployment, and food stamps, and in some case welfare, on MY DIME.

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