bravo45
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Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:30 am

.... in the occupied city of Jerusalem over an ancient Muslim graveyard.

Religious leaders in Jerusalem are warning of dangerous consequences after a decision by Israel's Supreme Court to allow the destruction of part of an ancient Muslim cemetery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7715921.stm

If they only wouldn't claim it to be 'Jewish'. Calling it Israeli Museum of Tolerance would be entirely appropriate though.  Yeah sure
 
sbworcs
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:20 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter):
If they only wouldn't claim it to be 'Jewish'. Calling it Israeli Museum of Tolerance would be entirely appropriate though.

But I would think that there could still be problems if it is on an ancient muslim graveyard site - does the site have any significance?
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Beaucaire
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:27 am

Turn around the question and imagine the reaction of the Israeli comunity in Germany, if the Turks would build a museum glorifying the Turkish-Armenian "friendship" on a Jewish graveyard site..
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Doona
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:56 am

Though I guess it's hard to avoid religious/historic sites in Jerusalem, isn't there somwhere they can put the museum that won't piss so many people off? This obviously serves as a provocation (rightly or wrongly), and just gives off an impression of being mean-spirited.

I'm just waiting for Israel to elicit some goodwill from me, for such a gesture is long overdue, and I don't see why they just can't play nice, at least in a relatively minor issue such as this. And no, it would not project weakness by showing some freaking decency and leaving a cemetery alone.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Turn around the question and imagine the reaction of the Israeli comunity in Germany, if the Turks would build a museum glorifying the Turkish-Armenian "friendship" on a Jewish graveyard site..

In my experience, using Israel's own arguments against Israeli policies is anti-semitic.

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jfk69
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:15 pm

Where was the outrage from the muslim world when the palestinians destroyed the tomb of joseph back on 2003?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31203

Sharansky has a great line.

"If we would have razed the gravesite of one of the founders of Islam, billions of Muslims would have taken to the streets," Sharansky said. "It's inconceivable that the world should not know about this travesty."
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:16 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 1):
But I would think that there could still be problems if it is on an ancient muslim graveyard site

Of course but it wouldn't be as big of hypocrisy as it is right now. This is one of those times that makes you think if this is a joke.

Quoting Doona (Reply 3):
In my experience, using Israel's own arguments against Israeli policies is anti-semitic.

 checkmark 
 
Mir
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:24 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 4):
Where was the outrage from the muslim world when the palestinians destroyed the tomb of joseph back on 2003?

Good question. But a better question would be: what the hell does that have to do with this? Are you going to let yourself get sucked into the "eye for an eye" mentality that has done absolutely nothing to advance peace in the region?

-Mir
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jfk69
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:45 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Good question. But a better question would be: what the hell does that have to do with this? Are you going to let yourself get sucked into the "eye for an eye" mentality that has done absolutely nothing to advance peace in the region?

-Mir

Propose me an answer sir....until then....YES!

I love how cheap jewish blood is......
 
Mir
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:56 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 7):
Propose me an answer sir....

Here's your answer: don't get sucked into the cycle.

I agree with the court that there's no legal reason why this museum couldn't be built on that site. But that doesn't make it the right thing to do. It sends a signal that the Israelis will do whatever the hell they want without taking Muslim issues into account. Unless that is the signal that you want to send, in which case you're not making a good case for peace.

-Mir
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CPH-R
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 7):
I love how cheap jewish blood is......

Whoa, never saw that line coming..  Yeah sure
 
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OA260
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:32 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Turn around the question and imagine the reaction of the Israeli comunity in Germany, if the Turks would build a museum glorifying the Turkish-Armenian "friendship" on a Jewish graveyard site..

Very true .

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 7):
I love how cheap jewish blood is......

And so is Muslim blood according to the Israelis and their actions.
 
jfk69
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:36 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
Maybe one day you'll actually wake up and realize the faith used to mean something...

What faith would that be sir?

Quoting Oa260 (Reply 11):
And so is Muslim blood according to the Israelis and their actions.

In my eyes it is ever since Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri struck. You may not know who he is so let me refresh your memory. He killed my cousin while she was getting a piece of pizza in Sbarros on august 9 of 2001. Yes, the famous sbarros bombing.

So don't give me the rolling eye image, don't tell me not to get stuck in the tit-for-tat stage of the middle east. I am in it already. These things matter to me and I am not just some outsider on a aviation message board throwing my opinion in while I have zero involvement like many here.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:44 am



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12):
These things matter to me and I am not just some outsider on a aviation message board throwing my opinion in while I have zero involvement like many here.

Lot of missiles being lobbed into Queens these days, eh?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
jfk69
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:15 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Lot of missiles being lobbed into Queens these days, eh?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know losing a relative doesn't count as being involved in the situation.

I lived there for 2 years as well. Does this bring my validity back oh master of airliners.net
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:18 am



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12):
What faith would that be sir?

Judaism. I've posted extensively on how the state of Israel has betrayed the basic tenets of the faith with its policy inconsistency.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 14):
Does this bring my validity

Quite so, my deepest sympathies for your loss. My family has experienced the same.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:25 am



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12):
He killed my cousin while she was getting a piece of pizza in Sbarros on august 9 of 2001

A criminal act that i do not accept.But if you look inside Palestinians you will find that no family there were immune from loosing a son,brother,cousin,father,uncle etc...
Now do you think tit 4 tat is the answer.And if some Palestinians gangs commit criminal acts does that allow a country like Israel to do the same?Big difference between the two sides.No?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:33 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16):
And if some Palestinians gangs commit criminal acts does that allow a country like Israel to do the same?Big difference between the two sides.No?

That question is no longer relevant. When there is a direct attack, there must be some kind of response. It is irresponsible for any state charged the with defense of its citizens to simply sit idly by while missiles and bombs show up unannounced in the community to wreak havoc.

What is important is for Israeli policy to address the demographic realities of having an ever-growing Palestinian population: restoring economic viability to their communities, eliminating the undemocratic regulatory barriers to their participation in various points of common society, and committing to good-faith negotiations with regard to disputed lands. Only over time will such measures restore faith and hope among the Palestinian people for a future in which their home and lands are worth living, not dying, for.

The winner-take-all mentality is unacceptable for both parties.
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todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:56 pm

First, the museum's name is "JERUSALEM MUSEUM OF TOLERANCE" and not "Jewish Museum of Tolerance" as misleadingly posted earlier in this thread.

Secondly, the museum is not going to be built "on a Muslim cemetery"; the place had not been used as a cememtery at least since 1948 and a parking lot had been built there in the early 1960s without any objections from Muslim authorities. The ancient cemetery was even declared "abandoned" by Muslim religious authorities in 1964.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cult...nster/2008/10/a-frank-gehry-d.html

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull






Hmmmm.....I feel the bad smell of incitement in the air...........
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Dougloid
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:33 am



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 18):
First, the museum's name is "JERUSALEM MUSEUM OF TOLERANCE" and not "Jewish Museum of Tolerance" as misleadingly posted earlier in this thread.

Secondly, the museum is not going to be built "on a Muslim cemetery"; the place had not been used as a cememtery at least since 1948 and a parking lot had been built there in the early 1960s without any objections from Muslim authorities. The ancient cemetery was even declared "abandoned" by Muslim religious authorities in 1964.

Thank you. I would have posted this but I was in the penalty box for a few days.

It's more atrocity propaganda from the usual 'sources'.
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bravo45
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:27 am



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12):
Quoting Oa260 (Reply 11):
And so is Muslim blood according to the Israelis and their actions.

In my eyes it is ever since Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri struck. You may not know who he is so let me refresh your memory. He killed my cousin while she was getting a piece of pizza in Sbarros on august 9 of 2001. Yes, the famous sbarros bombing.

So don't give me the rolling eye image, don't tell me not to get stuck in the tit-for-tat stage of the middle east. I am in it already. These things matter to me and I am not just some outsider on a aviation message board throwing my opinion in while I have zero involvement like many here.

Of course all Palestinian blood is cheap to you because of one action of one of the, if that is justified then I am sure Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri will have a reason why he thought all the Jewish blood was cheap. Gotta accept both or none, I think I have always made it clear that I don't buy into that, unlike who.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 18):
I feel the bad smell of incitement in the air...........



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 19):
It's more atrocity propaganda from the usual 'sources'.

Oh please!!! The name is different than the one posted in the link I gave above, and since the cemetery is no longer used, desecrating the graves is great!

Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:14 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20):
Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.

You started off with slagging the Jews there fella and attributing bad motives-and you did that without doing some elementary fact checking.

If you care to retract that crock of shit and get real, maybe we can have a discussion. However I do not think it likely.

I don't know how far back your memory goes but I think before 1967 at least half of Jerusalem was Jordanian. If the Jordanians had not let themselves get dragged into yet another war that they couldn't win, it'd be Jordanian yet. It was legitimately occupied by force of arms and as any student of international law could tell you, that's as legitimate a claim as there is in the region.

So there is Jerusalem. Dead people are buried under every building and yes, every parking lot too.

I do not refer to the bible although that is record enough for some folks. I'd point to the works of Flavius Josephus who wrote contemporaneously of Rome's wars against the Jews and the work of numerous archaeologists who've worked all over the region. I'd also point to the mosque everyone's always blabbing about which is built right on top of the foundation stones of the second Temple.

If you want to have a conversation, fine, let's do that.

But that doesn't mean that you get to shovel shit and ask everyone to call it ice cream.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:05 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20):
Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.

The usual Jews-have-not-the-slightest-right-to-Jerusalem BS. The Jerusalem mufti has recently repeated that Jews have no right whatsoever to even a single stone in Jerusalem, saying that the Temple never existed and was a big lie of the Jews...

"On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city" - hmmmm...should we feel astonished to find such a troubling similarity between the mufti's hateful words and this sentence by Bravo45...?


And to answer the above "question": on a political as well as on a legal point of view, the Tolerance Museum will be built on Israeli territory; it is in the western part of Jerusalem, not in the disputed eastern part.

Either Bravo45 does not have the most basic information about the subject he is discussing here, or he considers the whole pre-1967 Israeli territory as "occupied lands"...
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DocLightning
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:24 pm



Quoting Doona (Reply 3):

In my experience, using Israel's own arguments against Israeli policies is anti-semitic.

Could you clarify that?

Well, athiest though I may be, the Israeli government would classify me as a Jew. After all, I did have my Bar Mitzvah. So I do hope that we can spare any dismissals of my arguments as "anti-semitic."

I find the idea that Israel is building a museum of "Tolerance" to be disgusting and pathetic.

When Israel can treat its Arab citizens with the same tolerance it would like to see extended towards Jews, then I will donate to such a museum myself. Until that day, I consider this nothing more than a sick irony.
-Doc Lightning-

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Doona
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:14 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Well, athiest though I may be, the Israeli government would classify me as a Jew. After all, I did have my Bar Mitzvah. So I do hope that we can spare any dismissals of my arguments as "anti-semitic."

No offense meant, I was attempting a bit of satire there. I was referring to the hypothetical presented earlier.

Cheers
Mats
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Dougloid
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
The Jerusalem mufti has recently repeated that Jews have no right whatsoever to even a single stone in Jerusalem, saying that the Temple never existed and was a big lie of the Jews...

Thus continuing the bullshit from that discredited office and the people who've held it.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:16 pm



Quoting Doona (Reply 23):

No offense meant, I was attempting a bit of satire there. I was referring to the hypothetical presented earlier.

Ah. OK. Next time use a smiley!  Smile
-Doc Lightning-

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todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:48 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
the Israeli government would classify me as a Jew. After all, I did have my Bar Mitzvah. So I do hope that we can spare any dismissals of my arguments as "anti-semitic."

The "Israeli" definition of who is Jewish is larger than the the religious definition, for quite obvious reasons. In your case, however, it wouldn't change anything, since you celebrated your Bar mitsva, one can guess that your mother is Jewish.

But being Jewish is in no way an immunization from sharing anti-Jewish sentiments or from spreading inciteful and biased accusations against the Jewish State. Pretending otherwise would mean that being Jewish makes someone automatically "better" than the average population, a point of view which I would consider unacceptable.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
I find the idea that Israel is building a museum of "Tolerance" to be disgusting and pathetic.

If your personnal hatred against Israel is THAT big, it's your problem; no one has consulted you about the project.......

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
When Israel can treat its Arab citizens with the same tolerance it would like to see extended towards Jews, then I will donate to such a museum myself. Until that day, I consider this nothing more than a sick irony.

One can wonder what and who is the sick irony in this story.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:05 pm



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 26):

But being Jewish is in no way an immunization from sharing anti-Jewish sentiments or from spreading inciteful and biased accusations against the Jewish State.

Well, let's see. I'm a staunch supporter of Israel's right to exist. I donate to AIPAC. I haven't visited yet, but I do plan to. And I have family there.

But apparently, in your world, criticizing Israeli policies is "inciteful and biased" and "anti-Jewish."

I consider the behavior of the Israeli government to be nothing short of disgusting. Have you seen how the Palestinians live in medieval conditions next to their first-world Israeli neighbors? Perhaps if the Israeli government started treating them like humans, they might start behaving like it.

I'll never forget the time that we admitted a recent immigrant baby from Palestine. One morning in rounds, I presented the baby as "a 9-mo recent imigrant from Palestine." My senior resident, an Israeli, was incensed that I would even consider Palestine a place. So I said "OK. A 9mo Israeli immigrant." She didn't like that, either.

As long as that attitude pervades, there can be no peace. And as long as that attitude pervades, the memory of the Six Million is sullied.
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jfk69
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
I haven't visited yet, but I do plan to.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Have you seen how the Palestinians live in medieval conditions next to their first-world Israeli neighbors?

For someone that hasn't been there and seen it with your own eyes you should tread lightly. What the news shows and what is reality can be worlds apart. Not saying youi are 100% wrong...but you are no where near 100% right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
I'll never forget the time that we admitted a recent immigrant baby from Palestine. One morning in rounds, I presented the baby as "a 9-mo recent imigrant from Palestine."

Just curious as to why you would say Palestine?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 28):

Just curious as to why you would say Palestine?

Because that's where the family said they were from.
-Doc Lightning-

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huskyaviation
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:57 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter):
.... in the occupied city of Jerusalem over an ancient Muslim graveyard.

Religious leaders in Jerusalem are warning of dangerous consequences after a decision by Israel's Supreme Court to allow the destruction of part of an ancient Muslim cemetery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7715921.stm

If they only wouldn't claim it to be 'Jewish'. Calling it Israeli Museum of Tolerance would be entirely appropriate though.

You accurately described the name of the museum as the "Museum of Tolerance" in the subject line, just as the BBC article describes. "Jewish" is not mentioned as part of the museum's name, as you attempt to imply in the body of the thread-starter. Are you reading what you want to read, through biased-colored glasses?

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 19):
Oh please!!! The name is different than the one posted in the link I gave above, and since the cemetery is no longer used, desecrating the graves is great!

Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.

Absolutely irrelevant. You started this thread clearly hoping to incite a lot of Israel-bashing with another great injustice against Muslims, but you got absolutely pwned instead. Don't try to switch the argument to Israel's holding Jerusalem "by force". That isn't the subject here; you obviously lost the battle here, don't expand it into a war.

However, your reputation on this site and on other sites precede you; I am not surprised this would be your interpretation or your rebuttal.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:13 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):

Well, let's see. I'm a staunch supporter of Israel's right to exist. I donate to AIPAC. I haven't visited yet, but I do plan to. And I have family there.

But apparently, in your world, criticizing Israeli policies is "inciteful and biased" and "anti-Jewish."

Just forget it man, been down that road with these people. It's an ugly one. For them, there is only one kind of support for Israel and only one kind of "proper" Jew. They trounce on the cognitive dissonance and intellectual vigor that have been hallmarks of our people for generations. They deny that passion for people and heritage comes in many forms. They blindly support the policies of a government that has failed to be anything resembling a Jewish state in recent years. They quash anything resembling dissent with personal accusations and assumptions...these are the same people who called Spielberg out as an "idea fascist" for making "Munich".

It's terrible, really...
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:23 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 30):
Don't try to switch the argument to Israel's holding Jerusalem "by force". That isn't the subject here; you obviously lost the battle here, don't expand it into a war.

REALLY!!!!! You are telling me Israel would have been able to do this if it wasn't holding to the area by force?

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
The usual Jews-have-not-the-slightest-right-to-Jerusalem BS.

When did I say that?? Did I even used the word 'Jews'?? Read my posts again and tell me if I missed something, trust me I will take it back. What if you missed it, will you?

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
hmmmm...should we feel astonished to find such a troubling similarity between the mufti's hateful words and this sentence by Bravo45...?

See the above, I have always spoken of the 1967 Israeli borders, which are its legal borders, it has no right to one inch beyond it. And even within those 67 lines, those who were ethnically cleansed have the right to return. Agree?

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
And to answer the above "question": on a political as well as on a legal point of view, the Tolerance Museum will be built on Israeli territory; it is in the western part of Jerusalem, not in the disputed eastern part.



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
Either Bravo45 does not have the most basic information about the subject he is discussing here, or he considers the whole pre-1967 Israeli territory as "occupied lands"...

I am not going to take you on your word, but I need to look into this claim of yours. And I will when I have some time. Having said that, assuming you are correct, still doesn't give Israel the so-called 'only democracy in the region with emphasis on human rights' the right to desecrate the graves of others (without their concent) to build on. If the entire city is build on graves and its okay for Israelis to build on graves then they ought to be able to find old Jewish (first time in this thread I bring up this term with the exception of the museum name?) graves to build on.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 26):
But being Jewish is in no way an immunization from sharing anti-Jewish sentiments or from spreading inciteful and biased accusations against the Jewish State. Pretending otherwise would mean that being Jewish makes someone automatically "better" than the average population, a point of view which I would consider unacceptable.

I have a hue problem with the first part of that statement. The second part confused me a bit. So you are saying being Jewish doesn't make one better than the rest, fine. But ANYONE who criticises Israel be it that he himself be Jewish is wrong. So Judaism, a devine religion doesn't make one perfect (and it doesn't), but a man made country cannot possibly be wrong. I wish I had more time...
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:27 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):

A very honorable point of view. Why can't the merits of justice be made to decide for issues like these rather than ones religion/ethnicity?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:38 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 33):
Why can't the merits of justice be made to decide for issues like these rather than ones religion/ethnicity?

Well see, because if one holds such views, they are simply anti-Semitic, self-hating, anti-Zionist, or some combination of the three  Yeah sure
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Dougloid
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 32):
I wish I had more time...

Have fun at Evergreen with Rachel's fellow travelers there boyee.


 Wink
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:24 am



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 30):
"Jewish" is not mentioned as part of the museum's name, as you attempt to imply in the body of the thread-starter.

I just want to state that this is deserving of a reply. Let's see what Bravo has to say about it, because this point is true. Nowhere was that word specifically used in the article. The only Museum of Tolerance I know is the Simon Wiesenthal Center on Pico in LA.
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todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:37 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Well, let's see. I'm a staunch supporter of Israel's right to exist. I donate to AIPAC. I haven't visited yet, but I do plan to.

That's good to know that you are a staunch supporter of Israel's right to exist. I understand that this means "a staunch supporter of Israel's right to exist as the Jewish State".

It's a pity you haven't yet visited, even though you are living quite far away. When you go, if your trip is organized by Betselem or whatever extreme leftist organization...you'll return with deeper "anti-Israeli-government" hatred... Maybe a wise idea could be to visit a rehabilitation center for victims of terror attacks. Or a club for injured soldiers. Or families who lost dear ones in terror attacks. And, since you speak of "Memory", I would think that a visit to a military cemetery would be a decent initiative. There, maybe, you'll be able to grasp a little bit the HUGE difficulties encountered and the heartbreaking price being paid to maintain the Jewish State in existence and as safe as possible.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
But apparently, in your world, criticizing Israeli policies is "inciteful and biased" and "anti-Jewish."

No. And if you imagine that I do not criticize Israel, you're wrong.

But to attack Israel more violently than any other nation on earth, to use harsh words and to single it out as being an evil country is inciteful and anti-Jewish. There is no reason to have a special agressivity towards Israel. I always wonder why Ariel Sharon was muuuch more violently hated than bloody dictators or politicians like Saddam, Hafez Assad, Kaddafi or Ahmadinedjad...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
I consider the behavior of the Israeli government to be nothing short of disgusting. Have you seen how the Palestinians live in medieval conditions next to their first-world Israeli neighbors? Perhaps if the Israeli government started treating them like humans, they might start behaving like it.

What do you call "the Israeli government"? In case you do not know, Israel is a parliamentiary democracy where the government is elected and needs the support of the Parliament... So, it's been changing over the years...but maybe you got confused with the political systems of some of the neighboring countries where you have indeed the same "governement" in place during decades.

I won't say that Israel has behaved always in the best manner, and I won't say that many innocent Palestinians are not suffering. But one has to understand that the quality of living of most Palestinians has started to sharply deteriorate since the "second intifada", when the Palestinian leadership decided to launch an unprecedented wave of terror attacks against Israeli civilians.

Maybe for dedicated human rights defenders it is not a huge source of concern, but for me it was (and still is) a traumatic situation. To see pictures of destroyed busses, to read stories of entire families wiped out in one second while seated in a restaurant, to know that hundreds of innocent civilians were (and are being) slaughtered in the middle of their everyday routine is something extremely shocking. In front such a barbaric violence, with "human bombs" exploding at any street corner, any nation would have taken drastic military measures in order to restore an acceptable level of security for its citizen. Btw, the security barrier which the Palestinians and their supporters so strongly criticize is also a direct result of this wave of terror. It is not difficult to understand the absurdity of having a separation fence built almost on the Green line by a PM named Arik Sharon...

The Oslo accords were meant to bring peace, according to MP Beilin, Peres, Rabin & Co. But, the establishment of the very first form of Palestinian political existence has not resulted in bringing peace closer...it has marked the start of an extraordinarily high level of insecurity and terror in Israel. You haven't been there yet; I have been there regularly since being a baby, and I have felt the change. This was the goal of the terror groups, but they should not wonder if, in the end, their own population is ALSO paying the price of this hateful policy. And the same is happening again and again. PM Sharon evacuated the Gaza region, destroying all the Israeli settlements, even those very close to the former cease-fire line. And what was the result? Rockets on Sderot and the neighboring communities.

So it's very easy and simplistic, AND bad-faithed, to claim that

Quote:
I consider the behavior of the Israeli government to be nothing short of disgusting. Have you seen how the Palestinians live in medieval conditions next to their first-world Israeli neighbors? Perhaps if the Israeli government started treating them like humans, they might start behaving like it.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
As long as that attitude pervades, there can be no peace. And as long as that attitude pervades, the memory of the Six Million is sullied.

Because the PLO's or Hamas' attitude is not an obstacle to peace... Only "the Israeli Government's" attitude towards the Palestinians is an obstacle to peace.

This point of view is in itself illustrative of profound bias against the Israeli State.

And the memory of the Shoa victims has nothing to do with this discussion. Was it meant to be an interesting comment, which it is not, or was it meant to be offensive, to be just another very inadequate criticism of Israel?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
with these people.

Ha ha, funny..... From a single and very short sentence, one can already feel Aaron747's impressive degree of arrogance and disdain.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):
They blindly support the policies of a government that has failed to be anything resembling a Jewish state in recent years.

"They" do not not blindly support any policy;

Like Doclightning, it seems you have some trouble understanding the Israeli political regime; "in recent years"...there have been several governments, with all kind of policies, in recent years. But I guess that Peres' policies were also anti-Jewish. And maybe you could explain what would be the policies "resembling a Jewish state"; and of course, these policies must concern a Jewidh State in war, struggling against viloent terror groups sending kids as human bombs; it would be totally out of the subject to present the "policies resembling a Jewish state" of a State living in peace and security with friendly neighbors and so on. So please, explain once...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 32):
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
The usual Jews-have-not-the-slightest-right-to-Jerusalem BS.

When did I say that??

Here, Mr Bravo45:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 19):
Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.

There is NO indication of pre-1967 territories or post-1967 territories... You are speaking of Jerusalem as one city.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 32):
See the above, I have always spoken of the 1967 Israeli borders, which are its legal borders, it has no right to one inch beyond it.

No. You have not mentioned the 1967 lines. Look at your own words just above...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 32):
And even within those 67 lines, those who were ethnically cleansed have the right to return. Agree?

No. Because this is a way to say that Israel has no right to exist... According to this approach, the PLO will establish the State of Palestine in the Gaza strip and the whole West bank.....but the Palestinian "refugees", who dreamed to live in Palestine will be settled in a State called Israel... That sounds highly logical. But it starts sounding more logical when looking further: with 4 millions multi-generational "refugees" settling in Israel, the majority of the "Israeli" population would soon be Arab...and then the Jewish State can be "democratically" disbanded...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 32):
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
And to answer the above "question": on a political as well as on a legal point of view, the Tolerance Museum will be built on Israeli territory; it is in the western part of Jerusalem, not in the disputed eastern part.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21):
Either Bravo45 does not have the most basic information about the subject he is discussing here, or he considers the whole pre-1967 Israeli territory as "occupied lands"...

I am not going to take you on your word, but I need to look into this claim of yours. And I will when I have some time.

Ok, meaning that you are talking and talking and talking about a subject you do not even know.

First, you should know that this museum is planned in the pre-1967 part of the city. Bit even if you did not know this, you should know that the Mamillah neighborhood is in the western part of Jerusalem; not knowing this, is a proof that you do not know the city you are talking about.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 32):
Having said that, assuming you are correct, still doesn't give Israel the so-called 'only democracy in the region with emphasis on human rights' the right to desecrate the graves of others (without their concent) to build on. If the entire city is build on graves and its okay for Israelis to build on graves then they ought to be able to find old Jewish (first time in this thread I bring up this term with the exception of the museum name?) graves to build on.

Why do you say the "so-called only democracy in the region"? Is it due to some frustration? To some agressive thoughts? Maybe Syria is a better example of democracy? Or Egypt?

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 32):
I wish I had more time...

Wish you had a better ability to understand what is written. Because this last comment has nothing to do with my words... Read again, maybe it will be better on the second attempt.
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todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:53 am

Sorry, I forgot one part of my answer...

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
the right to desecrate the graves of others (without their concent) to build on. If the entire city is build on graves and its okay for Israelis to build on graves then they ought to be able to find old Jewish (first time in this thread I bring up this term with the exception of the museum name?) graves to build on.

There are graves almost everywhere in this region, and it is a considerable problem. With Jewish graves, it is even more complicated, because there is no possibility
, religiously speaking, to declare a burial place as being "abandoned", as seems to be the case in the Muslim faith. Nevertheless, roads and buildings and all kind of infrastructure had to be built on places where ancient graves were standing. There's no other way...

And btw, it's amuzing to hear all those concerns regarding an abandoned Muslim cemetery , while thinking of the large-scale destrcution of Jewish cemeteries and holy places during the years when those sites were in Jordanian hands.
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Aaron747
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:03 am



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
There, maybe, you'll be able to grasp a little bit the HUGE difficulties encountered and the heartbreaking price being paid to maintain the Jewish State in existence and as safe as possible.

You say this like you assume we've never met anyone who's been through it, much less possibly have relatives there! It's not like similar organizations don't exist in our own communities - we had ex-IDF soldiers and doctors who've worked in military hospitals visit and speak at our local JCC where I grew up as far back as I can remember. If one is from New York (Doc) or Los Angeles (myself), then one is not a stranger to such things, I can assure you of that. I had teachers at the Yavneh school who had to return home to Israel when relatives were lost in attacks - they were always open about their feelings and never hid their experiences from us.

I remain deeply concerned that you are unable to do anything other than write-off any opinions from fellow Jews that are not as conservative as yours. Your posts prove time and again that lefists like Lev Grinberg aren't far off when they characterize the current state of political discourse in Israel as impassable, but mostly due to the dominance of knee-jerk labeling that comes from hawks.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
But to attack Israel more violently than any other nation on earth, to use harsh words and to single it out as being an evil country is inciteful and anti-Jewish.

Where is this so-called "violence" in our posts? Where have we used the word "evil"?

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
There is no reason to have a special agressivity towards Israel.

On that we can certainly agree.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
Maybe for dedicated human rights defenders it is not a huge source of concern, but for me it was (and still is) a traumatic situation. To see pictures of destroyed busses, to read stories of entire families wiped out in one second while seated in a restaurant, to know that hundreds of innocent civilians were (and are being) slaughtered in the middle of their everyday routine is something extremely shocking. In front such a barbaric violence, with "human bombs" exploding at any street corner, any nation would have taken drastic military measures in order to restore an acceptable level of security for its citizen.

Forgive me for not posting it twice, since apparently that's what it takes for you to notice comments that aren't suitable for you to take issue with:

When there is a direct attack, there must be some kind of response. It is irresponsible for any state charged the with defense of its citizens to simply sit idly by while missiles and bombs show up unannounced in the community to wreak havoc.

That was my statement. I have never and will never advocate for the state of Israel to adopt a sitting-duck policy.

And for the record, I fundamentally believe that because of our history and faith, ALL Jews should be vehement human rights defenders.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
Because the PLO's or Hamas' attitude is not an obstacle to peace... Only "the Israeli Government's" attitude towards the Palestinians is an obstacle to peace.

Your words, not ours. You can search and search, I've never had a positive thing to say about the PLO, much less Hamas.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
or was it meant to be offensive

What team do you think we're on? Liberal Jews reference the Shoa as a deep reminder that discrimination in any form is wrong, and to properly stand for both our historic legacy as a people and our values, bear those responsibilities out on those who make policy in Israel.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
And maybe you could explain what would be the policies "resembling a Jewish state"; and of course, these policies must concern a Jewidh State in war, struggling against viloent terror groups sending kids as human bombs; it would be totally out of the subject to present the "policies resembling a Jewish state" of a State living in peace and security with friendly neighbors and so on.

I'm not going to post something twice for you in the same reply in the same thread. I've already enumerated the points that I think need to be improved to have the moral high ground that a Jewish state deserves and demands.
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DocLightning
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:04 pm



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
But to attack Israel more violently than any other nation on earth, to use harsh words and to single it out as being an evil country is inciteful and anti-Jewish.

You're worse than the American flag wavers. I criticise Israel and I'm an anti-semite, inciteful, and I'm just waiting to get called a Nazi.

In America, my views only get me called "anti-American" and "terrorist."

I'm not the hateful one here, Toda. I'm not the Israeli who took it out on a 9mo baby that day.
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TWFirst
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:43 pm

ENOUGH!

This freakin' decades-long conflict has caused the world way, WAY, WAYYYYY more trouble than this tiny strip of desert warrants.... historical significance of the area be damned. Policies from external influences ON BOTH SIDES of this conflict through the decades have contributed to this. It's eaten up an outsized proportion of the world's time, attention, resources, etc. This conflict represents the very WORST qualities of our species... both sides continue to act like children with no real hope of resolution.

I say: it's long past time for the WORLD TO UNITE on this issue and demand that Israel-Palestine come to a freakin' agreement in 6 months, or ALL support and alliances, financial and otherwise, from ALL external countries, will be withdrawn.... let 'em destroy each other if they can't freakin' GROW UP and get along... NOW. Judaism and Islam will continue to survive just fine without these two petulant, propped-up wastelands filled with illogical fundamentalist retards.
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todaReisinger
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:11 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
opinions from fellow Jews that are not as conservative as yours.

I do not have "conservative" opinions. But if you feel happy to classify me as a "conservative", you're free to do it of course...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
But to attack Israel more violently than any other nation on earth, to use harsh words and to single it out as being an evil country is inciteful and anti-Jewish.

Where is this so-called "violence" in our posts? Where have we used the word "evil"?

Don't play with words, it's really not interesting. The tone you are using is enough to indicate that you have, to say the least, a problem with Israel.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
There is no reason to have a special agressivity towards Israel.

On that we can certainly agree.

I would like to believe this, but from the tone of most of your messages it seems rather doubtful.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
When there is a direct attack, there must be some kind of response. It is irresponsible for any state charged the with defense of its citizens to simply sit idly by while missiles and bombs show up unannounced in the community to wreak havoc.

That was my statement. I have never and will never advocate for the state of Israel to adopt a sitting-duck policy.

"some kind of response" - and you, as well as other "genuine" Jews living abroad , are the ones able to decide on which "kind of response" is appropriate and in accordance with the "basic tenets of the Jewish faith" to make sure Israel achieves "the moral high ground that a Jewish state deserves and demands".

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
Because the PLO's or Hamas' attitude is not an obstacle to peace... Only "the Israeli Government's" attitude towards the Palestinians is an obstacle to peace.

Your words, not ours. You can search and search, I've never had a positive thing to say about the PLO, much less Hamas.

No, but I read message after message that "the Israeli government has to" do this and this as a condition to see peace arrive in the ME. I haven't read any comment about the continued incitement for hatred and terrorism in PA media and schools, about the religious hatred spread in PA mosques and so on. To think that all this will cease once "the Israeli government" will have fulfilled what you consider as the necessary measures for peace to prevail is a fundamental error. The same error which has accompanied the whole Oslo process as well as all the following discussions in Wye Plantation, Camp David, Taba, Sharm, Cairo or anywhere else.....

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 37):
or was it meant to be offensive

What team do you think we're on? Liberal Jews reference the Shoa as a deep reminder that discrimination in any form is wrong, and to properly stand for both our historic legacy as a people and our values, bear those responsibilities out on those who make policy in Israel.

I am not sure I understand what you imply. I hope I don't.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
I'm not going to post something twice for you in the same reply in the same thread. I've already enumerated the points that I think need to be improved to have the moral high ground that a Jewish state deserves and demands.

With all due respect, WHO do you consider to be in order to write that kind of things...?!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 14):

Judaism. I've posted extensively on how the state of Israel has betrayed the basic tenets of the faith with its policy inconsistency.

Other messages by Aaron747:

"The sad thing in all of this if you read anything by liberal Jewish scholars going all the way back to the founding of Zionism is that the scenario you describe above is completely against the basic tenets of the Jewish faith. Jews foster community and respect for their neighbors, none of this driving the entire neighborhood (or in this case, country) out of their homes business.


That sums up most of the sermons I heard from my rabbis growing up in LA. There are a number of hypocrisies the Jewish state is guilty of, but the one you quote is among the least serious. Most serious is that they supposedly stand for Jewish and democratic values, but have maintained a massive system of second-class citizenry among the Arab population as a means of "security". It's mindless nonsense that flies in the face of the most cherished tenets of the Jewish faith."



Again, same question: who do you think you are?

- A world moral authority?

- A universal reference in all questions related to moral issues?

- "The" embodiment of Judaism and of all the moral values it contains?

- The most genuine representative of "the Jewish faith"?


I don't want to be rude, but I find your attitude as being extremely pretentious. You have NO basis whatsoever to speak on behalf of "the Jewish faith". There are lots of different groups and inclinations composing "the Jewish faith", and concerning the Israel issue, you can find religious fanaticals who are extreme nationalists, with some of them being violently anti-Arab; you can also find secular nationalists, some of them extremists; you can find religious Zionists who are in favor of broad territorial concessions; you can also find (a few) religious fanaticals who are...violently anti-Israel and anti-Zionist because according to THEIR definition of "the Jewish faith", the re-birth of the Jewish independance should have been achieved only through the hand of God and not by man... So you see, there is not a single definition of "THE" Jewish faith.


"maintained a massive system of second-class citizenry among Arab population as a means of "security""

- maybe you might elaborate...especially on the "means of security" part...because it sounds quite weird.
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RE: Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance"

Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:41 am

I wonder if it will be similar to that one on the "Lemmiwinks" episode of South Park.

Couldn't find a youtube video of that segment, but maybe they will have a Tolerance Camp too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eijhloJjg50
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