dxing
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:06 pm

Let's see, first he back tracked on getting the troops out immediately upon taking office. Now, according to sources, those eeeevillll wealthy people may get to keep their tax cuts beyond 2010!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081123/pl_nm/us_usa_obama_taxes

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President-elect Barack Obama may consider delaying a campaign promise - to roll back tax cuts on high-income Americans - as part of his economic recovery strategy, two aides said on Sunday.

Now just how is he going to pay my mortgage and buy my gas if he doesn't charge those evil rich people for them?      

Even more interesting......

Obama said on Saturday he was crafting an aggressive two-year stimulus plan to revive the economy, aiming to save 2.5 million jobs by January 2011 through projects including transportation infrastructure, school modernization and alternative energy.

Is that revision number 3 or number 4? I keep losing track since I thought he had this all mapped out and ready to roll at the last debate. If I were an Obama supporter I'd be feeling a little like the President-elect was practicing a form of shock and awe on me.

If he does follow through and does the smart thing by extending those tax cuts then he is smarter than I gave him credit for, tell em one thing to get elected, turn around and do the opposite once you've got the election in the bag. Now that's CHANGE we can believe in! YES WE CAN!!!!!!      

[Edited 2008-11-23 11:09:23]
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DfwRevolution
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:10 pm



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
If he does follow through and does the smart thing by extending those tax cuts then he is smarter than I gave him credit for, tell em one thing to get elected, turn around and do the opposite once you've got the election in the bag. Now that's CHANGE we can believe in! YES WE CAN!!!!!!

As much as I enjoy the irony (and there is lots of it), I enjoy the fact that Obama is going to be enacting sensible policy and taking a moderate course even more.

One thing is for sure, Obama and his team are shrewd operators.
 
dxing
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:11 pm

BTW, if President-elect Obama follows thru with this, does it mean, that according to VP-elect Biden, the President-elect is now unpatriotic?  scratchchin   rotfl   rotfl 
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NIKV69
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:42 pm

Yep lie #2. Man if Ii voted for him I would feel slighted. This guy blew so much smoke and is going to govern 180 degrees from what he promised. Which is actually the better scenario.

CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!

I think he is beginning to realize that if he did follow through with this lame promise he would lose more jobs than what is happening now when the businesses he attempted to tax to death just moved to Malasia or India. Man I can see that free health care coming any day now.  sarcastic 
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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mariner
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:54 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
Man if Ii voted for him I would feel slighted. This guy blew so much smoke and is going to govern 180 degrees from what he promised.

How so? He promised an aggregate tax cut.

The economic circumstances have changed profoundly, even since the election (seen the latest unemployment numbers? ) and I don't think anyone could have expected that the present Treasury Secretary would just shrug and sit on his hands.

mariner
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Klaus
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:00 pm



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Let's see, first he back tracked on getting the troops out immediately upon taking office. Now, according to sources, those eeeevillll wealthy people may get to keep their tax cuts beyond 2010!

What a big, fat liar that Obama guy has to be!

There's just a tiny little worldwide financial crash and he already has the gall to make minor adjustments to the campaign ideas he presented before the crash!

What an unreliable jerk!  crazy 
 
NIKV69
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:05 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
There's just a tiny little worldwide financial crash

This is BS, even if we didn't have the crisis we have now he would have still flipped on this promise for the companies would have fled this country or subbed their work out of the country, in turn costing many jobs to be lost. His promise to punish the big bad upper class to finance his fantasies for the lower class was empty long before the economy went bad. Long before.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
DfwRevolution
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
How so? He promised an aggregate tax cut.

And he promised to raise the tax burden on top income earners. This is a policy reversal from the campaign, pure and simple

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
The economic circumstances have changed profoundly, even since the election (seen the latest unemployment numbers? ) and I don't think anyone could have expected that the present Treasury Secretary would just shrug and sit on his hands.

The developments in the last 3 weeks still pale in comparison to the month of September and October when Obama's campaign was still in full swing. There's no way around it. If Obama maintains the Bush-era tax rates, it is a broken campaign promise. But don't get me wrong, it's a promise I'm glad to see broken.

And what part of approx $240 billion in federal assistance that has been authorized by Paulson qualifies as "sitting on his hands?" I'm sure the guy has really been kicking back and taking it easy lately.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
There's just a tiny little worldwide financial crash and he already has the gall to make minor adjustments to the campaign ideas he presented before the crash!

Which started well before November 4  

The greatest irony of all was that as the economy got worse through September and October, the Obama campaign kept lowering the threshold for the "top income earners" who would pick up the tax burden. First $500k, then $250k, then $125k. And now, there won't be any tax increases at all. But it's only because of what has happened since the election.

You know what scans better? That Obama ran to the left to win the election but knows that centrist/right policies are the way out of this.

[Edited 2008-11-23 12:24:28]
 
NIKV69
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:28 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
You know what scans better? That Obama ran to the left to win the election but knows that centrist/right policies are the way out of this.

Also the way to win in 2012.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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mariner
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
And what part of approx $240 billion in federal assistance that has been authorized by Paulson qualifies as "sitting on his hands?"

Secretary Paulson said he would buy up toxic debt from the banks. Didn't happen.

We were told there would be no more bank failures - and now Citi is collapsing, right before our very eyes.

Secretary Paulson demanded $700 billion fgorm Congress as a matter or urgency. But, as of now, he has not requested the use of half of that - $350 billion.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
If Obama maintains the Bush-era tax rates, it is a broken campaign promise.

How is it a deferral a broken promise?

mariner
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DfwRevolution
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:40 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
How is it a deferral a broken promise?

Oh, it's just a deferral. Like Iraqi Airways deferred their A310 order. You've got to be a real homer to buy into such an obvious euphemism.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
Secretary Paulson demanded $700 billion fgorm Congress as a matter or urgency. But, as of now, he has not requested the use of half of that - $350 billion.

It was crystal clear from the very beginning of the Bailout that the Treasury would not release all $700 billion in one go. I think we can agree that doing so would have been a terrible idea? So why obtain permission from Congress for up-to $700 billion? Perhaps so the Treasury doesn't have to go back to Congress and go through the political process of requesting even more money if the $350 billion isn't sufficient?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
Secretary Paulson said he would buy up toxic debt from the banks. Didn't happen. We were told there would be no more bank failures - and now Citi is collapsing, right before our very eyes.

Changing the nature of the bailout does not equal inaction. The Treasury is most certainly taking action. And besides, Paulson is not the one who ran for office here and he is working within the bounds of the bailout package that a Democratic Congress authorized.
 
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mariner
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:51 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
It was crystal clear from the very beginning of the Bailout that the Treasury would not release all $700 billion in one go.

So now you are saying it is a deferral, not a broken promise? Funny that.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
I think we can agree that doing so would have been a terrible idea?

Why would I agree to that? It was presented as a matter of urgency. Look at what happened the first time Congress knocked it back.

On the whole, I'll go with the assessment in The Economist:

http://www.economist.com/world/unite...displaystory.cfm?story_id=12668365

"Mr Obama is assembling a formidable economic team. With the economy perhaps on the precipice of its worst recession since the Depression, he will need it."

If these formidable economists are now suggesting a deferral of one element of the tax package, that's fine by me.

T'ain't the Obama Administration that brung this recession on.

mariner
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Klaus
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
This is BS, even if we didn't have the crisis we have now he would have still flipped on this promise for the companies would have fled this country or subbed their work out of the country, in turn costing many jobs to be lost.

Sorry, but after you and your co-ideologues have been in charge since (at least!) the Reagan era and have managed to lead the world economy into the worst crash since the Great Depression, you have a really hard time of convincing anyone that a departure from your grandiosely failed ideology would be even worse.

Sorry, but the emperor is naked, and before giving advice on the economy you'd be well advised to get some new clothes so people can listen to you with a straight face.  mischievous 
 
NIKV69
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:14 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Sorry, but after you and your co-ideologues have been in charge since (at least!) the Reagan era and have managed to lead the world economy into the worst crash since the Great Depression

Oh please, the idiots like Barney Frank and the Dem congress are more to blame than Bush. You can't blame the guy for the economy. It's mostly the people's fault. We just kept borrowing with no way to pay it back and our car companies kept making crap cars while the Japanese made better cars for half the price now everyone wants a handout. Not Bush's fault.
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LAXintl
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:23 pm

Good deal. I always felt the talk of throwing the tax code at those considered "wealthy" was a stupid thing anyhow.

Once people realize yes its those folks that earn >$250,000 or run businesses are a key component of any economy its simply dumb to take money out of their pockets which would get invested back anyhow in the economy. Taxing simply robs people of those dollars that could go towards consumption or business investment and employment that these folks very much help create.

While I am no fan of Obama, I certainly hope he realizes he needs to lead the country down a centrist path if he wishes to succeed.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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mariner
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:23 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
Not Bush's fault.

His watch. His choices at Treasury. His power of veto.

mariner
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Ken777
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:25 pm

Let's face it - no one really knows how bad things are going to get. Every time new economic numbers come out economists (and the market) say "Oh, $hit!".

Every national politician is looking towards sound advice on what is needed this month, or this even week.

I believe that Obama will respond with a bit more vigor than Bush, but we're looking at a problem that won't be solved in 3 to 6 months. Deferring the tax increase at the top level doesn't bother me, just as it won't bother me when he raises it to the same level set by Ronald Reagan. Surely conservatives won't complain about a Reagan tax level for those making over a quarter of a million a year.

At some point Obama is going to need to look at tax revenues, but right now he needs to look at spending money to generate jobs. Personally I like the idea of a WPA type of program to improve our infrastructure. We actually get something out of the spending that we can use and jobs are created.

Right now, though, Bush is still in charge. It's his job to address the problems of the Big 3 auto makers, the crisis at major banks like Citi, and the level of economic stimulus that is needed now.

Obama doesn't count for another 2 months and things could change dramatically by the time he takes office.
 
NIKV69
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:31 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
His watch. His choices at Treasury. His power of veto.

Oh yea, l forgot every bad mortage went across his desk as well as every bad decision at GM. Give me a break.
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DfwRevolution
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
So now you are saying it is a deferral, not a broken promise? Funny that.

I sure missed the "promise" that:

a. The entire $700 billion would even be released
b. The entire $700 billion would be released immediately

It was understood from the very beginning that the Bailout assistance would be distributed incrementally. No broken promises.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Why would I agree to that? It was presented as a matter of urgency. Look at what happened the first time Congress knocked it back.

It was urgent, and a quarter-trillion dollars have gone out the door of the Treasury in a little over a month! Do you think it is at all responsible to use all $700 billion in one blow? Releasing the money over time on a case-by-case basis allows the market to respond and will result in bailout funds being allocated much more efficiently.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
If these formidable economists are now suggesting a deferral of one element of the tax package, that's fine by me.

And like I said in my first post, I'll be glad to see it happen.

The point is, it would still constitute a broken campaign promise. One of the biggest faults of the Bush administration was the apparent inability to admit mistakes. I don't see why Obama and his supporters should be held to a different standard, especially if he is truly the self-anointed pioneer of a "new style of politics."
 
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mariner
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:36 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Oh yea, l forgot every bad mortage went across his desk as well as every bad decision at GM. Give me a break.

If you are going to absolve the President - any President - of all responsibility, for almost everything, can we hope that you will extend the same courtesy to the President-elect?

mariner
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Klaus
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:58 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
Oh please, the idiots like Barney Frank and the Dem congress are more to blame than Bush. You can't blame the guy for the economy. It's mostly the people's fault. We just kept borrowing with no way to pay it back and our car companies kept making crap cars while the Japanese made better cars for half the price now everyone wants a handout. Not Bush's fault.

I'm talking of you and the economical ideology you are peddling here.

Trying to deflect Bush's co-responsibility for the state of affairs from him is just par for the course within a much bigger picture. That is the trouble with pure ideology: When it fails, it fails big!
 
PPVRA
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Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:18 pm

Classic Keynesian. Increase government spending, cut taxes, all to prop up spending and to hell with deficits. We had this too for the last 8 years.

One thing he might change though is the stimulus checks policy. People are using it to pay off debt instead of going out and spending, which is a good thing, but not what the theory calls for.

Big problem is whether the rest of the world will continue lending to the U.S. Government.
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Yellowstone
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Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:11 am

Mariner's got it when he points out that this is a deferral. The tax cuts are scheduled to expire in 2010. In his campaign, Obama said that he would push to end the tax cuts in early 2009, and it is true that he has backed off on that plan, because he believes the government needs to pump money into the economy at this point to help the economic crisis. But I haven't seen anything suggesting that he would extend the tax cuts beyond 2010.
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NIKV69
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Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 27):
So whats the difference between Obama and pretty well every other politician around?

Well judging by how MSNBC and CNN act he is the next coming of Christ when he turned out to be just another politico saying anything to get votes. The thread starter drove that point home.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 30):
Mariner's got it when he points out that this is a deferral. The tax cuts are scheduled to expire in 2010. In his campaign, Obama said that he would push to end the tax cuts in early 2009, and it is true that he has backed off on that plan, because he believes the government needs to pump money into the economy at this point to help the economic crisis. But I haven't seen anything suggesting that he would extend the tax cuts beyond 2010.

I will give him two years and I will stilll bet he renegs on it. He can't possibly start punishing business to pay for his welfare programs. We will lose too many companies to countries that don't tax businesses to death and lose a ton of jobs too. Trust me he lied to get the lower class all riled up and on his side.
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FruteBrute
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RE: Uuuuhh Ohhh..tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain!

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:23 am

Funniest thread I've read in a week. Gotta love the hate spewers already going into apoplexy when Obama is still 8 weeks away from even becoming the President.

Personally, I think he's doing the incredibly intelligent thing. Bush, fortunately in this case, was a moron about the tax cuts. They put the sunset clause or phase out clause in the original tax cuts. Guess what? They were sold as "temporary tax cuts" by the Bushies and expire Dec. 31st 2010. They automatically revert to their old rates on their own, with no legislative action needed. Even if Obama made it one of his top priorities by the time he is sworn in and can get a bill thru Congress the soonest he could have probably enacted this raise was Jan. 1st 2010. Hmmmmm, which is smarter? Spend political capital and a great deal of time tying up Congress and taking political heat for raising taxes in 2012, or simply wait an additional 12 months for the problem to fix itself without spending a dime of your political capital? This frees him up and the Congress up to work on other issues.

Besides.... if there are actually any Republicans left in Congress in 2010 and 2012 that originally voted for the tax deal in the first place the Democrats can target them, and use campaign ads saying, "Senator Neo-Con voted to increase your taxes!" Which would be true. They did vote for the bill that increase the taxes starting on Jan. 2011.

I love it! Obama is doing great, and making great choices and it just burns those chicken littles that were all squawking that Obama was a leftist, Socialist, Communist, and yet every decision that he's talked about so far prove he's a centrist.

[Edited 2008-11-23 18:25:49]
 
dxing
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RE: Uuuuhh Ohhh..tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain!

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:42 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
And (Fox News again) suddenly - the toxic assets are in play again, to help save Citi.

Fox news? Who the hell believes what they say?  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
This is just getting better by the minute.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
If it does happen, say by 2010, it is a promise kept. If it doesn't happen, it is a promise broken, and I'll be the first to jump on it.

The tax cuts are scheduled to expire in 2010 whether he does anything or not. But that misses the larger point. According to President-elect Obama during the campaign, those making more than 250k a year could well afford to pay more in taxes without any burden.

http://barackobamaquotes.info/category/taxes

It is not the debt that is most troubling. The bulk of the debt is a direct result of the President’s tax cuts, 47.4% of which went to the top 5% income bracket.


By deffering, or even punting if he does nothing, he is in fact admitting that people, keeping more of their own money, spending as they see fit is a better option than Washington taking that same money and spending it as Washington sees fit. That is a page taken directly from President Ronald Reagan and the conservative revolution, not to mention President Bush who we all know has pursued nothing but failed and discredited polices over the past 8 years. Well now, maybe not so failed or discredited after all eh?
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WunalaYann
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:49 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Well judging by how MSNBC and CNN act he is the next coming of Christ

But you and everybody else on this forum is much too smart to take MSNBC and CNN's propaganda at face value, correct?  Smile

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):
Classic Keynesian. Increase government spending, cut taxes, all to prop up spending and to hell with deficits. We had this too for the last 8 years.

 checkmark  Bugger, you beat me to it, amigo.

Except in Keynes' theory (and in pretty much any theory), government spending and tax cuts resulting in deficit are supposed to be counter-cyclical, ergo temporary. They are NOT structural reforms but purely short-term demand-support tools. Too bad too many countries (yes, France, I'm looking at you now) have forgotten that little yet key adjective - temporary.

Now we are paying the price for that demagogy. Grrr...

Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
every decision that he's talked about so far prove he's a centrist.

In my own middle-of-the-road opinion, this should be celebrated.  thumbsup 

Now whether the talk morphs into action is THE question.  Smile Time will tell, I guess.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:50 am



Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
and making great choices

Yea the same ones McCain would have made and completely 180 degrees from what he said in his campaign. Le't see, talk to countries about our problems now he is saying Iran can't makes nukes and won't be tolerated. (Same as Bush). Immediate pull out of Iraq now listening to Generals on the ground about phase out withdrawal. Attack CEOs and tax big business now big tax cuts across the board so not sure how he can give free health care or education. Sounds like a flip flopper to me. Man is moveon.org going to turn on him something fierce.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
FruteBrute
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:55 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 27):
Yea the same ones McCain would have made and completely 180 degrees from what he said in his campaign.

Meh. And Obama is the President-elect. McCain lost. What McCain promised or said at this point is meaningless, as his Presidential ambitions have sailed into the sunset of oblivion.
 
mt99
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:28 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):

The developments in the last 3 weeks still pale in comparison to the month of September and October when Obama's campaign was still in full swing.

Hmm interesting.. care to elaborate on this?
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bok269
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:28 am

Are you guys really getting up in arms over the fact that Obama MIGHT CONSIDER DELAYING a policy?
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mt99
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:34 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 30):
Are you guys really getting up in arms over the fact that Obama MIGHT CONSIDER DELAYING a policy?

They are getting up in arms, because unlike some people who blindly "stay the course" Obama doesn't have horse blinders on and realizes that policies and approaches should be adjusted to match realities.
Step into my office, baby
 
FruteBrute
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:38 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 30):
Are you guys really getting up in arms over the fact that Obama MIGHT CONSIDER DELAYING a policy?

No, the Republicans are just so bitter about being decimated in this last election they can't see straight.

Two days after the election Drug Limbaugh was blaming Obama for the current recession. (source: http://www.takepart.com/2008/11/12/t...mbaugh-decries-the-obama-recession ) These are the core 25% of the electorate that still approve of Bush's handling of everything and support him wholeheartedly. For them, no policy or decision made by Bush was anything short of spectacular, and any decision by any Democrat, liberal, or progressive anywhere, at any time, ever will be anything but a disaster.

It's the lunatic fringe of the right wing.
 
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mariner
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:48 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
Fox news? Who the hell believes what they say?  

Know the enemy. I watch Fox a lot (well, not Hannity or the self-serving Dick Morris), but the only news that I believe is al-Jazeera.

However, in this case, what Fox said about the rescue of Citi is true.  confused 

Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
According to President-elect Obama during the campaign, those making more than 250k a year could well afford to pay more in taxes without any burden.

Yes, I agree that they could afford it. I'm not sure what your point is.

mariner
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:55 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 29):
Hmm interesting.. care to elaborate on this?

Elaborate on what? The news?

The collapse of the credit markets in September and the initiation of the Bailout package in October overshadow any of the economic news since November 4th. If you disagree, convince me otherwise.
 
mt99
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:56 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 34):
. If you disagree, convince me otherwise.

You made the claim first. Burden of proof is on you buddy.
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mariner
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:12 am

Since my post included a reply to a deleted post, it was deleted, too.

So - I have to repost my response to you.  Smile

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
It was crystal clear from the very beginning of the Bailout that the Treasury would not release all $700 billion in one go. I think we can agree that doing so would have been a terrible idea? So why obtain permission from Congress for up-to $700 billion? Perhaps so the Treasury doesn't have to go back to Congress and go through the political process of requesting even more money if the $350 billion isn't sufficient?

I don't think anyone imagined he would cut a check for that amount on the first day, but I certainly assumed that it would be used to buy the toxic assets - TARP - for which it was specifically approved.

Off his own bat, the Secretary decided against that - the straw that broke the Citi back.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99510f30-b...-11dd-89dd-0000779fd18c,s01=1.html

Now, of course, with Citi, TARP is back on the table.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
I don't see why Obama and his supporters should be held to a different standard, especially if he is truly the self-anointed pioneer of a "new style of politics."

(a) he shouldn't and (b) I didn't. I saw him as an inspirational (and perhaps transformational) leader - who is also (a) ruthless and (b) a pragmatist.

I can't answer for what others saw in him.

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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:30 am



Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
Gotta love the hate spewers already going into apoplexy when Obama is still 8 weeks away from even becoming the President.

Not really, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I'm also laughing at all those here, well some of them have yet to chime in like Falcon, who were all for soaking the rich as soon as possible.

Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
Personally, I think he's doing the incredibly intelligent thing.

So do we conservatives, unfortunately that is not the platform he ran on so yet another group of his supporters gets tossed under the bus. I guess if he just does them in small chunks nobody gets upset.

Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
Even if Obama made it one of his top priorities by the time he is sworn in and can get a bill thru Congress the soonest he could have probably enacted this raise was Jan. 1st 2010.

Evidently you don't remember the tax hikes of 1993. The government has the power to make the tax hikes retroactive.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...103:6:./temp/~c103VIUWTa:e1442164:

(c) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 1992.

Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
Spend political capital

What political capital? The democratic party runs Congress.

Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
Senator Neo-Con voted to increase your taxes!"

And Senator Neo-con can retort, and the liberals let your tax cut expire so in reality, guess who's raising your taxes, liberals, as usual.

Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 24):
and yet every decision that he's talked about so far prove he's a centrist.

And yet every decision he's made has gone back on one or more campaign promises he made and flies in the face of everything he said on the campaign trail.

Quoting FruteBrute (Reply 28):
What McCain promised or said at this point is meaningless, as his Presidential ambitions have sailed into the sunset of oblivion.

Except that he was right all along and President-elect Obama is just coming to that conclusion.  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  This is just going to be too much fun to watch. Code Pink is already planning a protest at the inauguration, the greens are all bent out of shape at the amount of gas his limo burns, and now, the tax cuts remain. It's a beautiful day for change isn't it?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
Yes, I agree that they could afford it. I'm not sure what your point is.

The point is all through the campaign, through Joe the plumber, right up to election day which was well into the current financial crisis, President-elect Obama said he was going to give priority, although to be honest somehow everything was a priority and nobody ever questioned that, to correcting the tax code so that the middle class got a tax cut and that people earning over 250k would pay more. Now he plans to leave everything pretty much as it is. That is a major reversal on a major campaign issue. Can't have it both ways. Either the money is best spent in the hands of the person who earned it or it isn't. His whole campaign as it dealt with the economy was that the money was better spent by Washington.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:38 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
The point is all through the campaign, through Joe the plumber, right up to election day which was well into the current financial crisis, President-elect Obama said he was going to give priority, although to be honest somehow everything was a priority and nobody ever questioned that, to correcting the tax code so that the middle class got a tax cut and that people earning over 250k would pay more. Now he plans to leave everything pretty much as it is. That is a major reversal on a major campaign issue. Can't have it both ways. Either the money is best spent in the hands of the person who earned it or it isn't. His whole campaign as it dealt with the economy was that the money was better spent by Washington.

I still don't understand your point. I've given my opinion:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 36):
I saw him as an inspirational (and perhaps transformational) leader - who is also (a) ruthless and (b) a pragmatist.

And if we're going to apply similar standards - as DfwRevolution wants - of holding politicians to campaign statements, I remember Mr. Bush ran as a uniter, not a divider.

 confused 

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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:53 am

Hopefully he realizes that the tax cuts for the high income earners need to become permanent.
a.
 
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:57 am

Ya'll are forgetting the reverse irony - which is that, contrary to what Limbaugh and Hannity wanted to scaremonger their audience into believing, the guy is a) not a socialist and b) both wise and experienced enough to use his advisors and knowledge in a way that benefits everyone rather than just welfare queens in Chicago.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:00 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
greens are all bent out of shape at the amount of gas his limo burns

If by greens you mean a couple of bloggers who are completely clueless to the requirements of building a secure vehicle for the president and the process that went into designing the vehicle (which Obama had no part in).

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
the tax cuts remain

If by that you mean the the Obama adminsitration may consider delaying their repeal of the tax cuts.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:30 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 35):
You made the claim first. Burden of proof is on you buddy.

Oh, I didn't realize this was a courtroom. Staff, please don't hold me in contempt.  rotfl 

I've made 4 constructed posts and thoroughly elaborated upon them with a total of 576 words in this thread. That's plenty enough for you, but I'll say it one more time. The credit market collapse in September was a greater economic plunge than anything that has developed since the election. Can you even claim otherwise?
 
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:29 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 42):
've made 4 constructed posts and thoroughly elaborated upon them with a total of 576 words in this thread.

Your claim was made on your second post with a total of 68 words before it - and with nothing of value after.

Palin spews more than 500/minute and does she say anything of value? (real value - not comedic)

Unemployment numbers, business earnings, price of gas, stocks - i see none of these mentioned to even begin to discuss your point. Burdens on you.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 42):
Oh, I didn't realize this was a courtroom. Staff, please don't hold me in contempt.

You guys have made it a courtroom. With statements like these:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
it is a broken campaign promise.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
it would still constitute a broken campaign promise. O

What you dot understand is the lower income earners don't necessarily want to take from the rich and give to the poor. The fact that Joe the Liar (sorry Plumber) makes $250K and pay $X in taxes is not relevant to them. What they do care about is that the are makes $175K and the pay $X+1.

So what? let the keep their tax cut, but the important point has always been a tax cut on the middle class. You are the ones that are making this a class issue.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:25 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
the guy is a) not a socialist

Yes he is, his record up this point shows it and he is just flipping now so he doesn't get laughed out of office.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
both wise and experienced enough to use his advisors and knowledge in a way that benefits everyone rather than just welfare queens in Chicago.

Is neither wise or experienced but is doing what we all know has to be done to solve the issues even though if he said he would do it before the election he would have lost.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 38):
still don't understand your point. I've given my opinion:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 36):
I saw him as an inspirational (and perhaps transformational) leader - who is also (a) ruthless and (b) a pragmatist.


And if we're going to apply similar standards - as DfwRevolution wants - of holding politicians to campaign statements, I remember Mr. Bush ran as a uniter, not a divider.

My point is and has been that according to campaigner Obama the rich were getting an unfair break in the lower amount they were being taxed by Bush tax cuts and that they could well afford to pay more to make up the difference that a re-engineered tax cut geared towards the middle class would cost. Campaigner Obama's thinking was summed up by his statement to Joe the plumber that he wanted to spread the wealth around so the little guy had as much of a chance to make it as the big guy via the tax system. That is the platform he ran on and number of members here bought into it hook, line, and sinker. They failed to realize that lower taxes, in other words leaving more of a persons wealth in their hands to decide how to spend, is always more desirable than giving it to some big government entity. We've seen the federal tax receipts since the tax cuts go up. The proof that it works is right there. President-elect Obama has finally come to the proper conclusion as well.

Yes President Bush ran as a uniter not as a divider and I would ask you who has spewed forth venom and vitriol in barrels full since 2000? Even the political leadership of the democratic party has called him vile names and ridiculed him. Yet I will ask the same question I asked a few weeks ago, when is the last time you heard the President respond, not only in kind, but at all? When is the last time he didn't invite the opposition leadership, even when they were in the minority party, to discuss a big issue item? So the fact is you can try and be a uniter all you want but if the other side decides that's not what they want, does that make you the divider, or them?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
Ya'll are forgetting the reverse irony - which is that, contrary to what Limbaugh and Hannity wanted to scaremonger their audience into believing, the guy is a) not a socialist and b) both wise and experienced enough to use his advisors and knowledge in a way that benefits everyone rather than just welfare queens in Chicago.

No, I think he is still a socialist at heart. Perhaps that is the one silver lining in the economic mess we are in, that it will deny him the funds necessary to make those kinds of radical changes.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 41):
If by that you mean the the Obama adminsitration may consider delaying their repeal of the tax cuts.

He doesn't have to do a thing. He can sit on his hands and let them expire on Jan. 1st 2011.
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:34 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 47):
My point is and has been that according to campaigner Obama the rich were getting an unfair break in the lower amount they were being taxed by Bush tax cuts and that they could well afford to pay more to make up the difference that a re-engineered tax cut geared towards the middle class would cost.

I understand the principle - and I agree with it as a concept. To me, it is not only the socially responsible thing, it is also the decent thing to do.

I hope that it eventually happens. I think that carving the Bush cuts into granite is very dangerous. Carving anything about finance in granite is dangerous.

Quoting DXing (Reply 47):
That is the platform he ran on and number of members here bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

And the right that branded Mr. Obama as a socialist, clearly with no real idea of what socialism is, and a lot of people bought into it, hook, line and sinker.

Yet it was always intellectually stupid. It was always going to be tough enough for a black man to get into the White House, why would he add Marx to that burden?

As to now - we are staring at the greatest economic catastrophe that has happened in my long life time and new information is coming out every day. I note President Bush's statement today.

No one knows quite how to cope with it - as noted, Secretary Paulson has changed take several times, but it's okay for him to do it and not the new President?

And as one famous (very right wing) writer said yesterday "We just don't know (how bad it is)."

No, we don't - but Mr Obama and Mr. Bush may know more than us. Something happens, very soon after the election. The President-elect is made privy to the nation's deepest secrets - the Presidential security briefing, eg - and the Treasury books - the real state of the economy.

I think it is foolish - or ideological - to insist that the President-elect has no room to trim positions in the light of any new information - public or secret.

As Abraham Lincoln said in a great speech to Congress, old dogmas may not work and we must think anew.

Mr. Obama has clearly said, he will do whatever it takes. Any ideology may be out the window.

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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:52 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 46):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):the guy is a) not a socialist
Yes he is,

Do you even know what a Socialist is?
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:55 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 47):
He doesn't have to do a thing. He can sit on his hands and let them expire on Jan. 1st 2011.

And in doing so not renew them...its the same thing. Point is, there is no evidence to suggest that come January 20, 2013, whether Barack Obama is being sworn in for a second term or is turning over the reigns to someone else, the Bush tax cuts will be no more.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
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RE: Tax Cuts For Wealthy May Remain

Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:46 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
To me, it is not only the socially responsible thing

We will have to agree to disagree on this point since I feel it is not the governments responsibility, or even charge, to take wealth disproportinately from one group who has earned, to give ostensibly via the tax system, to a group that hasn't.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
And the right that branded Mr. Obama as a socialist, clearly with no real idea of what socialism is, and a lot of people bought into it, hook, line and sinker.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well. When I hear a candidate that wants to implement programs whereby the government forces a company to act in a certain matter, that has nothing to do with worker safety, i.e. his health care policy then I consider that socialist. When I hear an audio interview of that same candidate feeling sorrow that the Supreme Court did not do anything about addressing so called "monetary inequities" that resulted from civil rights rulings.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
Yet it was always intellectually stupid. It was always going to be tough enough for a black man to get into the White House, why would he add Marx to that burden?

Because in the eyes of the left that makes him a "good" black versus Secretary of State Rice and Justice Thomas who are considered "bad" blacks because they dare to suscribe to the theory that hard work will get you where you want in life.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
No one knows quite how to cope with it - as noted, Secretary Paulson has changed take several times, but it's okay for him to do it and not the new President?

He has made changes to the bailout program but not changed the program wholesale which is what the President-elect has just done with the tax cuts. Again, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think those cuts should have been made permanent a long time ago. I see him as finally seeing the light but that is completely different than what those that supported him voted for.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
I think it is foolish - or ideological - to insist that the President-elect has no room to trim positions in the light of any new information - public or secret.

This is not trimming, this is an out and out policy reversal that now mirrors his opponents ideas and for which he campaigned against.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 50):
Point is, there is no evidence to suggest that come January 20, 2013, whether Barack Obama is being sworn in for a second term or is turning over the reigns to someone else, the Bush tax cuts will be no more.

The democratic party is the majority party in Congress. There is nothing to suggest that that will change anytime soon. As such, it is the stated position of the democratic leadership that the Bush tax cuts are wrong, were wrong, and should be done away with. As stated, they can pass legislation making any tax increase retroactive to the beginning of the tax year.
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