Pyrex
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Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:12 am

Warning: this thread is a semi-serious question, semi-rant. I ask my U.S. friends not to take it as a criticism but as a suggestion for improvement.

Since I have arrived in the U.S. from Europe, some 16 months ago, there is one thing that has confused me a lot - just how difficult it is for someone to be internally mobile in this country. I would have thought that being one country (as opposed to Europe, which is several) it would be much easier to move from one location to the other or even live/work in multiple at the same time, but that does not appear to be the case. My friends that moved states to come to Boston had to go through all the pain to change things that should inherently be borderless between states, such as telephones, bank accounts and drivers licenses, having even more trouble than me, a foreign national. Not to mention the mess it is to file several tax returns for different states in the same year.

Case in point: today I went out for dinner with some friends to Dorchester (yeah, yeah, I know, crappy area, but my Vietnamese friend wanted to show us what good Vietnamese food looked like). On the way back from the restaurant my friend's boyfriend runs over a red light in a rental car and we get pulled over by cops. Since his driver's license was expired he got arrested and taken into the police station (at one point there were three cop cars on us - you would have thought that Dorchester police had something better to do like, oh, I don't know, stop all the shootings and stabbings going on every day there).
The thing with him is, he lives in California (where he has his house and car) and is a consultant, which means he is on the road pretty much every single week, and has spent the last month or so in Denver. Whenever he happens to be in California, the DMV closes on Fridays due to budget cuts so he cannot get his license renewed. However, on the weekends he is given a flight so he usually flies out to Boston to spend it with his girlfriend. Because of this fact, the (really bad-mannered) police officer that arrested him told him "I would have arrested you anyway even if your drivers license wasn't expired because you are in Boston for more than a month and so you need a Massachussets drivers license" (I would like to know what the California DMV has to say about that).

Now, I understand why the laws governing the power of the states were written as they were written originally, when people were just not mobile and information did not travel at the speed of light. I also understand why local governments want to keep the massive inefficiencies in the system (multiplying organisms that really need not be multiplied to foster local jobs for public workers, accountants, lawyers, etc.). However, times have changed, and people no longer live in the 18th century, where they grew up, worked and died within 50 miles of their birthplace. In a lot of cases they can and do live and work in multiple places at the same time, or at least during the year, depending on the definitions of residency of different states. In those cases, is it possible for a U.S. resident, of his own volution, to ask to become a federal citizen and thus only have to file a single tax claim (even if on a higher tax bracket), one set of documentation, one bank account, etc.? If not, has anything like this ever been proposed?
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QXatFAT
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
I would like to know what the California DMV has to say about that).

Sounds kind of rough. I know I have driven here in Michigan on and off the past 4 years with my California drivers license and my California plates on my Jeep. I havent had a single problem. Rough to hear.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:57 am

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):

Since I have arrived in the U.S. from Europe, some 16 months ago, there is one thing that has confused me a lot - just how difficult it is for someone to be internally mobile in this country.

It's not at all difficult. If you want to go somewhere, you get in a car, bus, train, airplane and go.

Hitchhiking and cycling seem to work too.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
In those cases, is it possible for a U.S. resident, of his own volution, to ask to become a federal citizen and thus only have to file a single tax claim (even if on a higher tax bracket), one set of documentation, one bank account, etc.?

Nope. In the U.S. you are a citizen of the state and the federal government. Not one or the other, but both. The closest thing he could do would be to claim D.C. as his place of residence.

Tell your friend that he isn't as important as he thinks he is, and he can follow the rules like everyone else. If he still wants to claim California as his state of residence, he could have renewed his DL online from Timbuktu.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
Now, I understand why the laws governing the power of the states were written as they were written originally, when people were just not mobile and information did not travel at the speed of light.

The federal structure was not chosen due to the speed of society in the 18th century. It was chosen to give local communities more direct control of their government as opposed to an overarching national government with homogeneous policies from sea to shining sea. The former structure allows individual states to tailor their services and laws to the needs and wants of their population and try things a little more bold than the national government would be willing to try..

[Edited 2008-11-29 21:58:23]
 
LAXintl
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:11 am



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
such as telephones



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
bank accounts



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
and drivers licenses



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
file several tax returns for different states in the same year

Would you not have to deal with all these in the EU also?

Having lived in Belgium, Sweden, Spain I had to start over pretty much in each place as well.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
runs over a red light in a rental car and we get pulled over by cops. Since his driver's license was expired he got arrested

How did he get a rental car with an expired license? This is normaly one of the most basic things rental agencies verify.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
(I would like to know what the California DMV has to say about that

Each State is free to make it laws. In California if you are in the State for more then 10 days technically you need to reregister your car and get a license.

Off course this is not enforced all the time, however there are people that abuse this by keeping vehicles registered in lower cost neighboor states like Nevada, Arizona, and Oregon or maintain out of state licenses.
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Pyrex
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:20 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):

Since I have arrived in the U.S. from Europe, some 16 months ago, there is one thing that has confused me a lot - just how difficult it is for someone to be internally mobile in this country.

It's not at all difficult. If you want to go somewhere, you get in a car, bus, train, airplane and go.

Hitchhiking and cycling seem to work too.

Transportation wasn't exactly what I was referring to but thanks anyway...  Yeah sure

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
The closest thing he could do would be to claim D.C. as his place of residence.

But that wouldn't really change anything, as other states could still demand him to become a citizen of theirs, couldn't they? BTW, how does it work for federal workers, military personnel, etc.? Does someone in, say, the FBI office in Salt Lake City have to pay Utah state taxes (assuming they exist)?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
If he still wants to claim California as his state of residence, he could have renewed his DL online from Timbuktu.

Actually, it is not that simple. California only allows you to do that under certain conditions ( http://dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm , down the page), which did not apply to him. In any case, that does not invalidate the fact that, regardless of his residency status in California, Massachussets still claims he is a resident of MA and thus wants him to have a driver license there (even though he doesn't have a car in the state).


Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
It was chosen to give local communities more direct control of their government as opposed to an overarching national government with homogeneous policies from sea to shining sea.

That does not invalidate my point. In those times people had their allegiances to their colonies, rather than a country, because a) that country did not even still exist and b) even if it did it was so far removed from the people that they naturally mistrusted it. Over time those allegiances shifted and I would venture to say that most people identify themselves as Americans first and citizens of a specific state second (if at all) and not the other way around.
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Jetsgo
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:21 am

It sounds like you and your friend have quite a misunderstanding with how the US operates on both a federal and state level.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
such as telephones, bank accounts and drivers licenses,

What other choice to you have when you live in a region where you use ATT for phone and Wells Fargo for banking and move to another region where neither exist? And drivers licenses are issued by the state in which you reside. As DfwRevolution pointed out, not only are you a resident of the US, but you are a resident of whichever state you live.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
Not to mention the mess it is to file several tax returns for different states in the same year.

It's called state income tax. Most states have it. When you earn money in a state, you pay tax on it. This is on top of federal income taxes. Just the way it is.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
Because of this fact, the (really bad-mannered) police officer that arrested him told him "I would have arrested you anyway even if your drivers license wasn't expired because you are in Boston for more than a month and so you need a Massachussets drivers license" (I would like to know what the California DMV has to say about that).

First off, your friend was breaking the law plain and simple. If the cop had a legal right to arrest him, then he has NO leg to stand on. Dick cop or not. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse, I think most of us know that. It is SO easy to renew a CA driver license that an arrest might in fact serve him well for being so ignorant. Second, CA DMV has no real say or authority over Boston and/or MS legal matters.

I'm sorry for coming off as so condescending, but these matters you and your friend bring to the table are quite simple with regards to how the US operates. Please don't take any hard feelings to this. :D

[Edited 2008-11-29 22:23:24]
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Pyrex
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:29 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Would you not have to deal with all these in the EU also?

Having lived in Belgium, Sweden, Spain I had to start over pretty much in each place as well.

Of course you would (not sure about the drivers license, but the rest yes) but they are different countries with different languages and different legacies. Fact is, though, there really isn't a cell-phone carrier with truly European coverage (it is mostly national based), and the same could be said about bank branches, so the point is you would have to deal with it not necessarily because of regulation (which also interferes, but is dwindling down) but because of the commercial nature of the market (which I hope becomes more integrated).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
How did he get a rental car with an expired license? This is normaly one of the most basic things rental agencies verify.

Actually the car was rented by his girlfriend. In any case, he has been renting cars for work for the past weeks without any problem so maybe they just don't care anymore (since the consequences don't fall on them).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
by keeping vehicles registered in lower cost neighboor states

That is another thing. If I am running a trucking company I can gain a big advantage for having my trucks registered in a given state, but not so for aircrafts, because they are regulated federally. Yet both are competing modes of transportation for certain types of goods. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd?
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:43 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 6):

Actually the car was rented by his girlfriend.

Which means he was not an authorized driver since his license was not verified.
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LAXintl
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:49 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 6):
Doesn't this strike anyone as odd?

No -

Its OK to have a trucking company and do national business. However your drivers and much of your vehicle fleet would be registered where they primarily do business.

See these things are regulated indirectly and directly in a host of way. Whether directly thru laws like CA that states if you are the state for more then 10 days you must register locally to insurance companies matching equipment and drivers, to drivers trying to get jobs - for instance the CA DMV wont give you background checks on non CA drivers, to the need to secure local delivery or parking permits which generally wont be issued permanently for out of state drivers or vehicles.

Ultimately the Federal system provides very much local State control, which frankly I can see could be a pain in a way, but great in others as laws can be adjusted to fit local conditions and desires.



And as far as the banks, phones, and such, just like Europe much of this is regionalised in the US with lots of local vendors, however with all the merger mania in recent years truly national companies are starting to become a more common reality.
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Pyrex
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:19 am



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 5):
What other choice to you have when you live in a region where you use ATT for phone and Wells Fargo for banking and move to another region where neither exist?

Actually I was talking about Verizon or Bank of America, companies that are present (almost) nationwide. Your cellphone is always the same regardless of where you are and still you have to change your account details, different taxes, etc. Likewise, with my Bank of America account, they always ask me at the counter whether it is out of state or not.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 5):
And drivers licenses are issued by the state in which you reside

But the question is, what if defining your state of residence isn't that simple? If your house is in one place, you work in another and you spend your weekends in another then which one prevails? What if the local state laws conflict with one another, are you a resident in all three? In which one do you vote?

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 5):
It's called state income tax. Most states have it. When you earn money in a state, you pay tax on it. This is on top of federal income taxes. Just the way it is.

I completely understand that you need to pay taxes wherever you work (trust me, I even saw city income taxes getting deducted from my paycheck this summer...). The thing is, with modern technology there is no reason why I should not be able to submit one income tax FORM and have the IRS send me my total bill and divide the money among the states the way they see fit (a street fight would be a good option - the Governator would solve California's budget crisis in no-time  Smile ).

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 5):
First off, your friend was breaking the law plain and simple.

I was not disputing that (nor does he intend to dispute that in court). I have actually been wanting to ask this question for a long time, his case just showed me an example of how difficult it can be to ascertain state residency.

Still, handcuffing and arresting him, and involving three squad cars in a high-crime area, seems a bit overkill to me.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 5):
Second, CA DMV has no real say or authority over Boston and/or MS legal matters.

Another question, if Boston police is so adamant he is a MA resident for spending his weekends there. What if he changes his driver's license to a MA one? Will he still be able to have a CA license or you cannot have multiple IDs? If not, will he be forced to sell his car, since supposedly the CA DMV will require a state driver's license to allow a car to be registered there?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
truly national companies are starting to become a more common reality.

And that is a great thing for consumers but if they are hampered by ridiculous laws that are designed to limit competition and protect local monopolies then what is the point?
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LAXintl
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:36 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Will he still be able to have a CA license or you cannot have multiple IDs?

No. In past years people used to be able to trick the system and maintain out of state licenses to conceal out-of-state convictions and traffic tickets, but now that State systems are more interlinked they work hard to catch such people.
Here in CA the DMV will take your old license away from you when they issue a CA one.

Just like for the IRS - you can only have a single tax home, and only supposed to have a single license.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
And that is a great thing for consumers but if they are hampered by ridiculous laws that are designed to limit competition and protect local monopolies then what is the point?

What ridiculous laws are those  Confused
There are dozens of banks, and handful of phone companies in most markets.

In some ways I'm not sure national companies frankly are the best path anyhow.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:41 am

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
My friends that moved states to come to Boston had to go through all the pain to change things that should inherently be borderless between states, such as telephones, bank accounts and drivers licenses, having even more trouble than me, a foreign national. Not to mention the mess it is to file several tax returns for different states in the same year.

I moved from Massachusetts to California. It was not a pain in the ass. Getting a new license and registration took me all of about an hour - I did it during lunch, and went right back to work.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
Dorchester (yeah, yeah, I know, crappy area, but my Vietnamese friend wanted to show us what good Vietnamese food looked like).

Hey, I hear it's getting better, so I hear. Friend of mine just bought a condo in Dorchester, and I've heard it's in a pretty nice area.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
(I would like to know what the California DMV has to say about that).

California has similar regulation. I had to change my license within (I believe) a month of moving here.

Of course, there's nothing really to prove how long you've been here (especially since I was just staying with friends for the first couple weeks I was here).

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Actually I was talking about Verizon or Bank of America, companies that are present (almost) nationwide. Your cellphone is always the same regardless of where you are and still you have to change your account details, different taxes, etc. Likewise, with my Bank of America account, they always ask me at the counter whether it is out of state or not.

Coincidentally, I have both a Verizon cell phone, and a Bank of America bank account. I didn't have to do anything to either of them (aside from changing my billing address - which I did online for both of them - and for my credit card and Fidelity account). Yes, BoA asks me in what state my account is located. I simply reply "Massachusetts" and then we proceed as normal.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 1):
Sounds kind of rough. I know I have driven here in Michigan on and off the past 4 years with my California drivers license and my California plates on my Jeep. I havent had a single problem. Rough to hear.


You're a student, though, correct? I lived in California for 4 years, as a student, with a MA drivers license. That's a different situation.

[Edited 2008-11-29 23:52:16]


(edited cause I suck)

[Edited 2008-11-29 23:53:03]
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Pyrex
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:48 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Just like for the IRS - you can only have a single tax home, and only supposed to have a single license.

Ok, I understand that and it makes perfect sense, but which one will that be? And what are the implications if a person owns cars in multiple states? I was under the impression most states only allow you to register a car if the driver's license is from within the state.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
What ridiculous laws are those

Insurance, for once, is one. It is regulated by the states even though by definition it is a business without a physical location, which means until very recently there were only three companies offering car insurance in MA (what a cozy arrangment that was for them, I'm sure). Cambridge is still one of the cities in the entire country with the highest average premiums despite the low crime rate and the absence of powerful/flashy cars (I know drivers around here are massholes, but come on...).

[Edited 2008-11-29 23:50:07]
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Maverick623
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:07 am



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
The thing with him is, he lives in California (where he has his house and car) and is a consultant, which means he is on the road pretty much every single week, and has spent the last month or so in Denver. Whenever he happens to be in California, the DMV closes on Fridays due to budget cuts so he cannot get his license renewed.

Not an excuse. If he wants to excercise his driving priviledges, he needs to keep his license current.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
I would have arrested you anyway even if your drivers license wasn't expired because you are in Boston for more than a month and so you need a Massachussets drivers license" (I would like to know what the California DMV has to say about that).

They can't say anything. California has no jurisdiction over Massachusettes, or any other state.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Still, handcuffing and arresting him, and involving three squad cars in a high-crime area, seems a bit overkill to me.

Like you said, it's a high crime area. Three people, in a rented car, with a driver who has an expired license in a HIGH CRIME area would certainly make me a bit uneasy.
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LAXintl
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:36 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 12):
Insurance, for once, is one. It is regulated by the states

Yup, and one I am quite happy is regulated by States.

Here in LA I have well over a dozen companies to choose between to protect my car or home.

Matter of fact our state insurance commission has sued companies multiple times to have rates reduced, or services increased.
Worked quite well here - suggest MA residents work on electing people, or change the laws directly if things are as bad as you state.
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iairallie
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:20 am



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
in California, the DMV closes on Fridays due to budget cuts

Actually I think they shortened the state work week as an environmental measure.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
However, on the weekends he is given a flight so he usually flies out to Boston to spend it with his girlfriend.

That's his choice. He should have made one less trip to visit his girlfriend so that he could be responsible and take care of his obligations.

You don't have to change bank accounts when you move I didn't I have the same bank I had in Virginia and FL even though they don't have branches in UT. I do direct deposit and bank online.

It's called the United states for a reason. The founding fathers wanted grant states a fair amount of autonomy and limit federal power.
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:19 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
My friends that moved states to come to Boston had to go through all the pain to change things that should inherently be borderless between states, such as telephones, bank accounts and drivers licenses, having even more trouble than me, a foreign national.

-
Switzerland has practically the same constitution as the USA, whenever being a bit ......... smaller. This means that if a foreigner wants to become Swiss citizen he has to stay in the same Canton, even the same village or town, as you become citizen of the Canton and NOT of the union. And education, police, traffic, finance, taxes are Cantonal matters and NOT a matter of the union. If you pay your taxes, you pay them to the Canton and NOT to the union. Also quite many laws differ from Canton to Canton. That applies to ownership laws, opening hours of shops, laws about what can be sold how etc. And while most Cantons are German speaking, some are bi-lingual (Berne+Fribourg/Freiburg+Valais/Wallis = German+French, one is tri-lingual (Graubünden/Grisons = German/Romansh/Italian) and four are French speaking. It is only the union which is quadro-lingual. So that if you have family and move from Luzern to Lugano (180km) the schools will no longer be German language but Italian language, and your car needs a new number very soon, and a new tax declaration will be due shortly.
-
It is similar in other federalist countries like Austria, Germany, Canada, Australia, India .
-
This is what federalism is all about. The power is to be with the states and not with the union.
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:21 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 1):
I know I have driven here in Michigan on and off the past 4 years with my California drivers license and my California plates on my Jeep. I havent had a single problem.

-
Not yet, Sir, not yet !  wave 
-
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:30 pm



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 11):
You're a student, though, correct? I lived in California for 4 years, as a student, with a MA drivers license. That's a different situation.

Oh okay. Gotcha. How do they know your a student? My car was not regestered with insurance in Michigan, only California.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:33 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
In California if you are in the State for more then 10 days technically you need to reregister your car and get a license.

-
You of course can do some plays. I knew a family, part of whom lived in Zurich, the other part in Athens. Both cars were registered in Zurich. Each half year, the one in Athens was driven up to Zurich, and the one in Zurich down to Athens. And so, the laws of both sides were served.
-

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Does someone in, say, the FBI office in Salt Lake City have to pay Utah state taxes (assuming they exist)?

-
In Switzerland, if you are a so-called "independent", your taxes are shared by the place of residence and the place of business. However, people living in the Cantons of Schaffhausen, Thurgau, St. Gallen, Schwyz, and working as employees in the Canton of Zurich pay their taxes where they live. I therefore expect somebody working in whatever office in Salt Lake City to pay Utah state taxes. An uncle of me who had lived some years in Louisiana but later on lived right across the border in Texas, used his right to be served in the State-Hospital of Shreveport when necessary which according to him not only was cheaper but even better. While Texas is rightwing-capitalist, Louisiana is almost Socialist by US-standards.
-
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:39 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Not yet, Sir, not yet !

So then are you planning on pulling me over? Haha
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:50 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 20):
pulling me over

-
Be aware of the fact that we on here have some career-hungry US law-enforcers ! One of them possibly already is driving around in your area to trace your car down and report it to his authority !  Wink  wave 
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:22 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Actually, it is not that simple. California only allows you to do that under certain conditions ( http://dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm , down the page), which did not apply to him.



Quote:
How to renew your driver license by mail

You may be eligible to renew your license by mail if you can answer No to all of the following questions:

* Does your driver license expire more than 60 days from today’s date?
* Will you be 70 years of age or older when your current driver license expires?
* Are you currently on any type of driving probation or suspension?
* Did you violate a written promise to appear in court within the last two years?
* Have you already received two consecutive five year extensions by mail?
* Do you have a driver license from more than one state or jurisdiction?

I take it he left it too late?
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:41 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Actually, it is not that simple. California only allows you to do that under certain conditions ( http://dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm , down the page), which did not apply to him. In any case, that does not invalidate the fact that, regardless of his residency status in California, Massachussets still claims he is a resident of MA and thus wants him to have a driver license there (even though he doesn't have a car in the state).

So how does any of this excuse the fact that he ignored his most basic civic duties? If your friend couldn't take one weekday away from his work or getting nookie to square away his life, it sounds like he had it coming.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
That does not invalidate my point. In those times people had their allegiances to their colonies, rather than a country, because a) that country did not even still exist and b) even if it did it was so far removed from the people that they naturally mistrusted it. Over time those allegiances shifted and I would venture to say that most people identify themselves as Americans first and citizens of a specific state second (if at all) and not the other way around.

Yes, it does invalidate your point! Since you are the confused outsider looking in, perhaps you should stop lecturing me on why you think we have a federal government. It had nothing to do with the speed of society. It had nothing to do with allegiances. The federal system was chosen to divide power, give local control to the people, and ultimately protect against tyranny. No matter how much times have changed, that hasn't and I hope it never does. Consolidating everything at the national level for the sake of convenience would destroy one of the best democratic measures this world has ever seen.

To this day (especially this day), different parts of the country want different services from their government. If a visual aide would help, look at the electoral map from 2008. While it only shows the binary red/blue divide, beneath lies the fundamental nature of what different parts of the country want from their government. When one party (which history shows is more often the Democrats) uses the federal government to enforce their policy over the entire nation, you ultimately stick some part of the country under laws or tax policy they don't want. Leave those services to the states, and everyone can have their way. Far more democratic in the end.
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:48 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
Hitchhiking

Is illegal.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
or change the laws directly if things are as bad as you state.

I live in MA, and minus some asinine things, its a decent place to live. My one gripe is that the state decides who can sell auto insurance and due to that the rates are sky high. Its only within the last 6 months progressive was allowed to sell here.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 18):
How do they know your a student?

Afaik you can either inform them or just wait until you get stopped and then sort it out.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:56 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 24):
Is illegal.

Depends on where you are [/irony]
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:02 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 1):

Sounds kind of rough. I know I have driven here in Michigan on and off the past 4 years with my California drivers license and my California plates on my Jeep. I havent had a single problem. Rough to hear.

I have a misdemeanor (yes, a CRIME) on my record for driving in California with a Michigan license for more than 10 days. I was fined $10 for it, but when I applied for my CA medical license, I had to report it under "Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offense?" And get the court records and everything.
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Cadet57
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen

Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
Depends on where you are [/irony]

And it is illegal in MA.

Oh and:

Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:11 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
most people identify themselves as Americans first and citizens of a specific state second (if at all) and not the other way around.

-
every been to Texas ??
 scratchchin 
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:16 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
that hasn't and I hope it never does. Consolidating everything at the national level for the sake of convenience would destroy one of the best democratic measures this world has ever seen.

-
THIS indeed is the reason why quite a number of countries have at least partially copied the constitution of the USA, in order to keep central control down and give more power to the member states of the union.
-
 
57AZ
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:10 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 6):
That is another thing. If I am running a trucking company I can gain a big advantage for having my trucks registered in a given state, but not so for aircrafts, because they are regulated federally.

Not true. States may also require the registration of aircraft based in their jurisdiction for the purposes of taxation. Arizona residents are required by the Arizona Revised Statutes to register their aircraft with the Arizona Department of Aeronautics and required to display an annual registration on the tail of the aircraft.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:05 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 27):
And it is illegal in MA.

Oh and: You Fail At The Internet

Before saying that I fail for bringing constructed thoughts to the table, maybe you should have done a basic Google search? Hitchhiking is only illegal in MA along turnpikes and controlled access freeways. It is legal elsewhere.

You fail for not fact checking your own posts. You also fail for quoting mine out of context. My first post about hitchhiking had nothing to do with any particular state but was in reply to the broader national question.

[Edited 2008-11-30 11:14:12]
 
PPVRA
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:27 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
However, times have changed, and people no longer live in the 18th century, where they grew up, worked and died within 50 miles of their birthplace.

Well, some small states in the north might have run into these problems back then. Then again I don't think there were licences to ride horse buggies back then, either.

Probably mostly a legal problem for people going across states, as it still is today. Though these guys work to improve on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ommissioners_on_Uniform_State_Laws

The Uniform Commercial Code is of course pretty crucial in getting goods to flow across state borders.

[Edited 2008-11-30 11:37:16]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:16 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
I have a misdemeanor (yes, a CRIME) on my record for driving in California with a Michigan license for more than 10 days

So is this different state by state then? Seems like it. I know that here in Michigan, my buddy and I went to see the new Bond movie last week and he got pulled over for going 35 in a 25 (we call this Jackson making its budget at the "hill". They pull everyone over going down this hill at a speed 6 mph over) and was driving a car with North Carolina plates, his Wyoming license, with a residency of Michigan. I think the cop just got to confused and let us go. But he did not presure him to answer anything and such. Does suck to hear about you in California though. Seems like California is a little less tollerant when it comes to driving laws.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):

You might be right. I am gona lay low the last 2 weeks I have in Michigan  Wink
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:36 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
mostly a legal problem

-
such things depend on the will of people in different states. In Switzerland right today, the Canton of Zurich and the Canton of St. Gallen voted in favour of joining a co-ordination group of Cantons to co-ordinate educational programs, while the Cantons of Thurgau and Graubünden voted AGAINST this. In some Cantons, smoking is generally allowed in cafés and restaurants, while today, the people of the Cantons of Fribourg/Freiburg, Vaud/Waadt and Valais/Wallis followed the Cantons of Zurich, Basel and Geneva in prohibiting smoking in cafés and restaurants. And in the Canton of Zurich, doctors from now on can sell medicaments to the customers, while in most other Cantons doctors only can hand out prescription to be brought to the pharmacy. The people of the Canton of Zug approved a new taxation law. In the Canton of Zurich, the owning of dangerous dogs as there are American Pitbull, American Staffordshire Terrier, Bullterrier and Staffordshire Bullterrier as a result of a Cantonal vote is prohibited now. People owning such dogs can have them until they die but not replace them and such dogs have to wear muzzles whenever leaving their homes.
-
there of course are clear definitions about what is federal level and what Cantonal. V.A.T., laws about/against drug-abuse, foreign politics, the armed forces, laws about the Federal pensions for the above 65-years old, laws about alcoholic beverages, the Federal Railways and the Federal Highways are federal level. But education, police-affairs, traffic matters, taxation, laws about the gastronomy, etc all are Cantonal.
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:03 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):

Very nice. It's supposed to be that way in the U.S., but seems like people ignore it.

There's no clear rule that allows the Federal government to built highways, yet they still did. On the other hand, nothings says states can't built them. (whether that should be the case or not is another matter)

Education is also a state affair and nowhere in the constitution says the Federal government has the powers, even though there's a U.S. Department of Education. It's only been in existence since 1980, though.

[Edited 2008-11-30 13:17:01]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Cadet57
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 31):
Before saying that I fail fo

Good lord. Maybe the fact that you f**ed up a emoticon tag led to me posting that  sarcastic . Get over yourself. Why dont you actually take it from someone who lives here, and oh btw who has a few friends as cops before you come off as a pompous know it all.
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57AZ
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:44 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Education is also a state affair and nowhere in the constitution says the Federal government has the powers, even though there's a U.S. Department of Education. It's only been in existence since 1980, though.

Nor does the Constitution list education as a fundamental right. Education is one of many matters left to the states.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
Then again I don't think there were licences to ride horse buggies back then, either.

Licenses have only been around since the 1910s. Some states used to allow applicants to apply for their licenses via mail and for many years, there were no skills tests required. All you had to do was pay the fee.
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Pyrex
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 13):
They can't say anything. California has no jurisdiction over Massachusettes, or any other state.

Well, if the state of California insists he is a resident of California under their definition and the state of Massachussets insist he is a resident of their state under their definition then we have a problem, don't we? We have already established he cannot have more than one ID so what is the solution? Will Deval Patrick and the Governator fight each other in a death match? Or will the respective DMVs install offices open 24/7 in all major airports so you can change your ID as soon as you land, always?

Heck, even Colorado could have a claim in saying he lived there if they wanted to. That would be an interesting three-way match.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 13):
Like you said, it's a high crime area. Three people, in a rented car, with a driver who has an expired license in a HIGH CRIME area would certainly make me a bit uneasy.

Actually, if you are going about profiling (which I am sure never happens...) the four people inside that care couldn't be further away from the... hmmm... profile of the typical troublemakers in that neighborhood.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Here in LA I have well over a dozen companies to choose between to protect my car or home.

Matter of fact our state insurance commission has sued companies multiple times to have rates reduced, or services increased.

You mean that, of the thousands of insurance companies in the US, you can only choose from a few dozen? And the government still goes out and says how much they can charge and for what? Isn't that supposed to be against everything the US was built on?

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 15):
That's his choice. He should have made one less trip to visit his girlfriend so that he could be responsible and take care of his obligations.

Actually, if you had read it correctly he did. It just happened that the California DMV was closed on Fridays.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
An uncle of me who had lived some years in Louisiana but later on lived right across the border in Texas, used his right to be served in the State-Hospital of Shreveport when necessary which according to him not only was cheaper but even better. While Texas is rightwing-capitalist, Louisiana is almost Socialist by US-standards.

Shouldn't medical care (especially emergency medical care) be on the basis of the nearest facility with the necessary resources to treat that specific patient, regardless of location?

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 22):
I take it he left it too late?

I assume so, yes (too late being 60 days before it expires).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
I have a misdemeanor (yes, a CRIME) on my record for driving in California with a Michigan license for more than 10 days. I was fined $10 for it, but when I applied for my CA medical license, I had to report it under "Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offense?" And get the court records and everything.

How long had you been staying in California for? And how did they prove you were there for more than 10 days? Would you need to get a new license if you were there just for vacation as well (there is a lot to see in CA)?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):
every been to Texas ??

Ok, Texas might be different (I guess the "if at all" part would apply to the country).

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 30):
Not true. States may also require the registration of aircraft based in their jurisdiction for the purposes of taxation. Arizona residents are required by the Arizona Revised Statutes to register their aircraft with the Arizona Department of Aeronautics and required to display an annual registration on the tail of the aircraft.

Does that mean that US Airways has their aircraft flying out of the PHX registered in Arizona and paying higher taxes?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 31):
Before saying that I fail for bringing constructed thoughts to the table, maybe you should have done a basic Google search? Hitchhiking is only illegal in MA along turnpikes and controlled access freeways. It is legal elsewhere.

You fail for not fact checking your own posts. You also fail for quoting mine out of context. My first post about hitchhiking had nothing to do with any particular state but was in reply to the broader national question.

Dude, take a chill pill. I think he was talking about the failed smilie (irony) in there...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
Probably mostly a legal problem for people going across states, as it still is today. Though these guys work to improve on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa..._Laws

It is good to know someone is working to make life easier for US citizens, but problem is that is voluntary (i.e. states only adopt the measures if they want). Plus, I see the usual crowd has blamed the Universal Commercial Code on everything (I wonder if it is one of the signs of the apocalypse).


I am not disputing that driving with an expired drivers license is wrong, as some commentators here in this thread seem to be implying I am. I dispute the assertion that someone is a resident of a given state just because of some arbitrary state law that contradicts that of another state, but that is another issue. However, no-one seems to have addressed the main point of my question.

Let us think analytically here: what are the benefits of the current system and how do they compare with the costs? We know some of the benefits: lazy DMV workers on power trips that would be uncapable of getting a real job anywhere else get to make a living. Accountants get to make fees off of filing state tax reports that could be aggregated into the federal one. The costs are a bit more murky but real nonetheless, and probably higher than the benefits mentioned: tens if not hundreds of millions of work hours lost every year because of red tape. Are there any other costs or benefits of the current system? Has anyone ever done a real, factual, study to assess all the factors?
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Dougloid
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:36 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
Warning: this thread is a semi-serious question, semi-rant. I ask my U.S. friends not to take it as a criticism but as a suggestion for improvement.

Pyrex, what a lot of people from Europe do not seem to be able to internalize is that the United States is a federation of 50 different small to medium sized states, each having their own ideas about how much they will and will not cooperate with each other and the federal government.

Residency is like that. Generally speaking there are legal and statutory requirements for residency in each state. You cannot be a legal resident of two states simultaneously, or a resident of no state-unless you're a resident of an area under US jurisdiction. Military people are often times residents of places they have not been to in a while but that's how it works.

However, as to your friend, he was arrested for having an expired driver's license. What the cop said about needing a Mass driver's license was dicta I think, unless he was kind enough to cite chapter and verse. I think had he been charged with that he'd be able to make a pretty good argument that he was not a resident.

There is no such thing as being a federal citizen. You're a resident of a state as well, subject to their jurisdiction and liable to pay their taxes and conform to their laws as well as the laws of the state you find yourself in.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:37 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 39):
Pyrex, what a lot of people from Europe do not seem to be able to internalize is that the United States is a federation of 50 different small to medium sized states, each having their own ideas about how much they will and will not cooperate with each other and the federal government.

Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity, do you have any idea of what states cooperate the most and what states cooperate the less (or actively go out of their way to make life miserable for their citizens)?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 39):
What the cop said about needing a Mass driver's license was dicta I think, unless he was kind enough to cite chapter and verse. I think had he been charged with that he'd be able to make a pretty good argument that he was not a resident.

What exactly do you mean by "dicta"? I actually think that, had the cop charged him of that, he would have a pretty good case to through everything away in court. In any case, in your career as a lawyer have you ever come across someone who has two or more states claiming he is a citizen? How did the situation get resolved?
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lincoln
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
The thing with him is, he lives in California (where he has his house and car) and is a consultant, which means he is on the road pretty much every single week, and has spent the last month or so in Denver. Whenever he happens to be in California, the DMV closes on Fridays due to budget cuts so he cannot get his license renewed. However, on the weekends he is given a flight so he usually flies out to Boston to spend it with his girlfriend. Because of this fact, the (really bad-mannered) police officer that arrested him told him "I would have arrested you anyway even if your drivers license wasn't expired because you are in Boston for more than a month and so you need a Massachussets drivers license" (I would like to know what the California DMV has to say about that).

What would the CA DMV have to say about someone driving in MA? Massachutess (yeah, I butchered the spelling) accepts the CA DL as proof of the privelage to drive with specific conditions. They could, conceaveably (but are unlikely to) say that you need a MA DL to drive in MA period. Instead, the law is tailored such that short-term visitors are not required to obtain a MA DL, but longer-term visitors/residents must obtain the Mass DL.

And only an idiot drives with an expried license... break the law, get arrested. With an expired DL you have no legal right to operate a vehicle in any state. And it's not like the expiration date really suprised him, did it? I mean, god, it's printed on the front of the driver's license and it's on his birthday... You aren't required to wait until it expires to renew it; I think the last time I renewed my DL while I had a CA DL I did it 3-4 months prior to expiration.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 1):
Sounds kind of rough. I know I have driven here in Michigan on and off the past 4 years with my California drivers license and my California plates on my Jeep. I havent had a single problem. Rough to hear.

Each state is different. Ohio, for example, doesn't have a law requiring you to have an OH DL or plates, just that you must have a valid drivers license issued by one of the states + valid registration for the car.

Up until March I had driven with my California DL for a little under 3 years, but my DL was expriing in May, and I realized I hadn't received renewal information from the CA DMV (they have/had my Ohio address), and it was going to expire before I would be back in California so I bit the bullet and got an Ohio license... I hate it. It looks and feels fake and it doesn't work in Airport kiosks  Sad

I still have CA plates on my car though, California sends me the registration form every year, I send them check, they send me registration card, and I put sticker on my car. But I don't think Ohio cares... About three weeks ago I was behind a car with CA plates where the sticker expired in January of 2005.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
The federal structure was not chosen due to the speed of society in the 18th century. It was chosen to give local communities more direct control of their government as opposed to an overarching national government with homogeneous policies from sea to shining sea. The former structure allows individual states to tailor their services and laws to the needs and wants of their population and try things a little more bold than the national government would be willing to try..

Exactly. The federal government has -- and abuses -- too much power as it is; the United States is a confederation of states acting for the common good.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 5):
What other choice to you have when you live in a region where you use ATT for phone and Wells Fargo for banking and move to another region where neither exist?

I could have carried my CA cell phone number with me -- I have a friend who has had a California cell number that he's used in Hawaii, Washington, and probably a couple other states.

Bank of America has no branches in the state that I live in (I think it may be the only one!) but all of my bank accouts are still with BofA -- I can mail deposits when I have to (pay is direct deposited), everything else is online banking, and there is a BofA withdrawl-only ATM close enough (or, of course, you can use any of the 32 billion other ATMs on the planet)

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Here in CA the DMV will take your old license away from you when they issue a CA one.

Ditto for Ohio. One of the more painful days of my life was surrendering my CA license. I thought about letting it expire before going in for the new one (Ohio only seizes valid licenses) but I thought that may be tempting fate too much.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
I would venture to say that most people identify themselves as Americans first and citizens of a specific state second (if at all) and not the other way around.

I don't know about most people, but first and foremost I am a Californian (living in Ohio), then an American. Calling people Americans is not much different than calling a Frenchman a "European:"... Californians are differnent than Ohioans, who are very differnt than Michiganders (who aren't terribly differnt than Californians) and Texans are an entity unto themselves.
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Dougloid
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:04 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):

What exactly do you mean by "dicta"?

In my line of work when a statement is called dicta it is a polite way of saying someone's talking out their ass.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
In any case, in your career as a lawyer have you ever come across someone who has two or more states claiming he is a citizen? How did the situation get resolved?

I've never heard of that until now. There's a general rule about residency that is that you intend to stay there and have no interest in going back to wherever you're from. That's usually enough to get you registered to vote.

But residency as a concept gets confused when you start adding things like benefits and licenses in. It's quite difficult in some places to become a resident to take advantage of in state tuition or admission preferences in state universities.

So.....what you'd have to do is dig out the exact rules with respect to a driver's license in Massachusetts and see how they apply. I did not have the time to do that-there's a lot of stuff in their motor vheicle code and like many east cost states it's pretty confused-not as bad as New York, but confused.

From what you've said I do not think he would be a resident in Massachusetts because he's got no permanent residence but be that as it may he should not have been driving with an expired license. You simply shouldn't wait until the last day. It's a case of mistaken priorities which your friend has no doubt learned to pay more attention to.

There are plenty of Portuguese folks down on the cape and places like Fall River. Do you get down there at all?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Pyrex
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):


Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):

What exactly do you mean by "dicta"?

In my line of work when a statement is called dicta it is a polite way of saying someone's talking out their ass.

Gotcha. I'll keep that in mind for a sticker next time I need to do a powerpoint presentation.  Wink

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
So.....what you'd have to do is dig out the exact rules with respect to a driver's license in Massachusetts and see how they apply. I did not have the time to do that-there's a lot of stuff in their motor vheicle code and like many east cost states it's pretty confused-not as bad as New York, but confused.

Well, I don't think that will be necessary in this case, since he was not actually accused formally of fake residency, but the way things are I can definitely see it coming handy eventually. Thanks anyway.

And I can imagine how defining whether someone is a resident of NY is confusing or not - I had to decide that this summer when I was interning there (for the withholding tax forms) and in the end I think it just ended up being quasi-random. There is even a special provision for the inhabitants of Yonkers...

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
but be that as it may he should not have been driving with an expired license

No question there. I guess for me the concept of "expired license" is so bizarre since where I come from a drivers license only does what it says on the cover, qualify someone to drive (it is not a valid form of ID) and so you only need to renew it once you turn 65, for health reasons (makes for some fun faces in rental car agents: "Where is the expiration date in this? REALLY? 2047?).

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
There are plenty of Portuguese folks down on the cape and places like Fall River. Do you get down there at all?

I've been a couple of times to Provincetown but have never been to Fall River or New Bedford. There is quite a sizeable community in Gloucester and East Cambridge as well and I hang out in this last place sometimes (not too often, though).
I generally prefer the beaches in the North Shore / Cape Ann, (especially Rockport) to Cape Cod (maybe because I don't really know the cape that well and sometimes it is difficult to find the right spots on your own).
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Dougloid
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:34 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 43):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
but be that as it may he should not have been driving with an expired license

No question there. I guess for me the concept of "expired license" is so bizarre since where I come from a drivers license only does what it says on the cover, qualify someone to drive (it is not a valid form of ID) and so you only need to renew it once you turn 65, for health reasons (makes for some fun faces in rental car agents: "Where is the expiration date in this? REALLY? 2047?).

I can see us yanquis can teach you alls a thing or two about fund raising.
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57AZ
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:44 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Does that mean that US Airways has their aircraft flying out of the PHX registered in Arizona and paying higher taxes?

For the sake of this argument, probably not. They're probably registered in Delaware, as I suspect that US Airways is a Delaware corporation.
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
built highways, yet they still did. On the other hand, nothings says states can't built them.

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In Switzerland, roads of whatever size built by the Cantons are Cantonal roads. Only highways built by the union are regarded as highways.
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
U.S. Department of Education

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In Switzerland, on the Federal level, education is in the Ministry of the Interior. While "normal" universities are Cantonal, the two Technical Universities belong to the union.
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Quoting 57AZ (Reply 37):
the Constitution list education as a fundamental right.

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while the Swiss constitution lists education in the public state schools system of a minimum of 8 years as a basic duty of everybody (which means the parents HAVE TO send their children to school)
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
An uncle of me who had lived some years in Louisiana but later on lived right across the border in Texas, used his right to be served in the State-Hospital of Shreveport when necessary which according to him not only was cheaper but even better. While Texas is rightwing-capitalist, Louisiana is almost Socialist by US-standards.

Shouldn't medical care (especially emergency medical care) be on the basis of the nearest facility with the necessary resources to treat that specific patient, regardless of location?

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maybe. But in Switzerland, people have to go to a hospital in their own Canton even if a big one would be right around the corner. This however has been improved in recent decades by a system of "inter-Cantonal recompensations" enabling people to do what you mention. In case of Texas and Louisiana the difference apparently is that Louisiana has a number of state-owned public hospitals with "social" tariffs, while in Texas the hospitals all are private.
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Quoting Dougloid (Reply 39):
what a lot of people from Europe do not seem to be able to internalize is that the United States is a federation of 50 different small to medium sized states, each having their own ideas about how much they will and will not cooperate with each other and the federal government.

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a lot of people from Europe DO understand, as coming from federalist countries just as the USA. You have to see that you have some federalist countries in Europe like Switzerland, Austria and Germany, some centralist ones like France, and many in between. In Switzerland, you have 26 elected Cantonal parliaments and 26 elected Cantonal governments (with ministries for everything you can imagine except foreign politics). And the states in Austria and Germany also have their parliaments and governments.
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 36):
Good lord. Maybe the fact that you f**ed up a emoticon tag led to me posting that sarcastic . Get over yourself.



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Dude, take a chill pill. I think he was talking about the failed smilie (irony) in there...

I didn't f** up any emoticon tags. The [/irony] comment was not an attempt at a tag or smilie. It was a joke on a tag, and you failed to pick up on it. So again, you're the one who "fails at the internet." Besides, go look at the smilies. There are none called "irony." That should have been a clue.

A more common example is when people rant about a subject and then close it off with [/rant] or [/soapbox].

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 36):
Why dont you actually take it from someone who lives here, and oh btw who has a few friends as cops before you come off as a pompous know it all.

I don't claim to know everything. But unlike a lot of people these days, if I am going to say something, I still take the time to do some research and make sure it is correct. You may live in MA. You may know cops in MA. But I looked up the laws for your state and you are wrong. The only laws against hitchhiking in MA are for turnpikes and controlled access highways.
 
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:26 pm

Ok, reading back through the argument... don't take this as taking sides, but... pet generalization peeve of mine:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 47):
The only laws against hitchhiking in MA are for turnpikes and controlled access highways.

Are you sure you don't mean "The only state laws..."; I would assume Mass. political subdivisions have some ordinance making autonomy, and therefore one would need to check the laws for every city/town/village to state conclusively that there was no law/ordinance having the effect of law against hitchiking.

the City of Cleveland, for example, has a complete set of what I would expect in the state vehicle code (but haven't yet found on the state level) as a city ordinance -- i.e. stop at red lights, pass on left only, etc. I wouldn't suprise me if some/most/neary all cities in Mass. prohibited hitchhiking in wihtin their jurisdictional limits.
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RE: Can A Person In The U.S. Be A "Federal Citizen"?

Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:56 am



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):

The base core of your question is valid even if the basis you are using is.... odd.

The question you ask on Federal vs State law basically is one that almost all national companies are asking. Many do not want to be subjected to State laws and vigorously lobby Congress to have to follow only Federal regulations or rules (which are often more relaxed than a states), normally under the guise of the Constitution's Commerce Clause. In truth companies game the system as much as possible, using states that are most favorable to their business as "home" (like Delaware and insurance) to claiming they need protection from state laws or they will be unfairly impacted as they operate in numerous states (like banking). Most are subject to a mixture of national and state regulations.

So the question of whether you could have a "federal" citizen, especially in today's day and age of living here, working there, but spending most your free time somewhere else could be an interesting concept into the future. I could see something where when you file taxes you account for the amount of time that you spent in various states and pay the respective taxes for each one (its really all about the money) and then you have a license or ID that is issued Federally.

I know it would likely be fought tooth and nail as it is against one of the basic tenets of our nation but at least requiring a "Federal Citizen" to account for his/her time in each state should alleviate the funding issues that are based on population etc.

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