Beaucaire
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Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:10 pm

..I put it in the non-aviation section,since it has nothing to do with Mil-Aviation
Question I have is the following : The detection of submarines is an art ,using a series of sophisticated tracking devices (Sonar,Magnetic Anomaly Detection,satellite thermal imaging..) and that chasing-technology is getting more and more sophisticated.
At the same time Submarines -specially the new,small ones (actually the big ones-nuclear ballistic weapon carriers are more easy to detect than some of the small diesel-electric ones running on fuel-cells) are becoming more and more furtive and silent. Some have anti-magnetic hull and seem not detecatble by MAD.
So who will be winning the race ? The manufacturers of Submarines or the ones building tracking devices ?
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Dougloid
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:22 pm

B, there was a fellow over there who used to post a lot, his name was Astuteman, and he is the resident expert on such things.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
dxing
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
The manufacturers of Submarines or the ones building tracking devices ?

For every action there is a reaction. The sub builder will always have the edge in innovation, the destroyer designer will always have the luxury of reverse engineering to find a solution.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:40 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
(actually the big ones-nuclear ballistic weapon carriers are more easy to detect than some of the small diesel-electric ones running on fuel-cells

 no 

The quietest sub out there is the Ohio Nuke Missle subs. Better yet, they define quiet. They are said to be quieter than the ocean's background noise.

As far as your question goes, DX has the right answer.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 3):
The quietest sub out there is the Ohio Nuke Missle subs. Better yet, they define quiet. They are said to be quieter than the ocean's background noise.

But can one compare things that are not comparable ?
A submarine sitting idle on the ocean floor is one thing- a submarine cruising at normal speed ( about 8-10 knots ) is something different.The noise of the propeller,the heat developed by its power-units (be it nuclear or fuel-cell ),the sonar-signature of it's hull and operating noise will be factors when chasing subs.So how can a big sub be more silent than a small one ?
A nuclear submarine like the Ohio-Class is much bigger and has a different goal than an modern ,Fuel-cell driven non-nuclear sub like the Swedish Gotland Class or the German 212/214 class.
Those sub's are silent attack weapons operating mainly in depths of less than 400 meters,while the power of nuclear subs is their capability to remain undetected on the ocean floor for a long period and wait their moment of strike.
Small subs have different objectives(Attack,intelligence gathering,protection of larger subs,drop of special forces). I do not dispute the size and power of Ohio-class or Typhoon class Nuclear carriers,but the bigger a boat is,the easier it can be detected-it's sheer physics.
So are the smaller attck subs in the US navy louder than a Ohio ?
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WrenchBender
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 3):
The quietest sub out there is the Ohio Nuke Missle subs. Better yet, they define quiet. They are said to be quieter than the ocean's background noise.

 spit 
Nuke power plants make noise of some type you can reduce it but you cannot completely make it disappear.

Swedish 'Gotland' Class
Russian 'Lada' Class
Are just 2 classes that are at the peak of technology for quiet subs. Air independent engine and electric = ultra quiet.

WrenchBender
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GQfluffy
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
So are the smaller attck subs in the US navy louder than a Ohio ?

The 688-class (Los Angeles class) definitely is, not sure about the Sea Wolf or Virginia class.

I understand what you're saying about a battery-powered sub being able to ground itself on the ocean floor, not making any noise at all, while most nuke boats require motion of some kind (read below), but an Ohio-class sub...can't be compared. It is the QUIETEST submarine out there.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 5):
Nuke power plants make noise of some type you can reduce it but you cannot completely make it disappear.

Anechoic coating, the machinery decks isolated from the hull via rubber boots and other presumably classified devices, a naturally recirculating reactor...all these things are built into the Ohio missile boats. At speeds under 10 knots, you wouldn't know one was there until it wanted you to. Who cares how BIG these things are, they contain the noise they make. There are reasons they cost billions to design and make.
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DocLightning
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:42 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
So who will be winning the race ? The manufacturers of Submarines or the ones building tracking devices ?

There's a rule I learned as a grad student in biology. "If you build a better mousetrap, someone will build a better mouse."

It's true. Living in New York, I discovered that they have trap-resistant mice that have evolved behaviors that allow them to clean the bait off a trap without setting it off.

There is no end to this race, my friend.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
SkyyKat
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:22 pm

Your all wrong  Smile The quietest submarine in the world is the Diesel Electric/Hydrogen Fuel cell U212/214


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfjYZUiOkUw


Interesting watch.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:27 pm

I read somewhere that the 626 class (Ohio) was quiet and capable enough to to be used as attack ships. It is literally a case that the Ohio's can do everything a 688 (Los Angeles) can, only better. Also, they can launch SLBMs. The 688s are marginally faster, but they do so so much louder that it really isn't an advantage. They're also a bit more maneuverable, but this only matters in docking procedures. For all practical purposes, the 626s are better ships.

I think the only reason we even keep 688's is redundancy factor. However capable a 626 might be, 688s are infinitely more disposable, given the original mission of the 626s.

Also, wasn't there a detection method where supercomputers listen to the background noise of the ocean, looking for "holes" or silences in the background where probablility says they shouldn't be? I could see this as being the only practical method of detection where the 626 is concerned.
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Acheron
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:46 pm

SSK's are way more silent than SSN and SSNB of any class due to the nature of nuclear propulsion which is always noisier than electric engines using batteries(or fuel cells in the AIP units). Sure, you can reduce the noise, but it will never be completely silent, compared to a conventional sub running on its electric engines. Of course, the downside is that it will not be as fast as a nuclear one.

When the Improved Kilo first came out, it was called the Black Hole due to how silent it was when running on its electric engines.
I
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 6):
It is the QUIETEST submarine out there.

So why is the US navy so keen on checking out the Swedish Gotland class submarine ? I beleave the US navy hired it for a year because of it's silent capabilities.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:21 pm

Nuke subs are deep-water subs. Conventional (diesel/battery/fuel-cell) subs can operate much more efficiently in shallow areas (most of them are alot smaller as well...making them much more maneuverable in shallow waters as well).

Not saying this is the reason the US hired the Gotland class...just pointing out some things.
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Stealthz
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:36 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 11):
So why is the US navy so keen on checking out the Swedish Gotland class submarine ? I beleave the US navy hired it for a year because of it's silent capabilities.

My thoughts on this, the changing threat scenario around the world means that the USN could be confronting SSKs more often than the nukes of the Cold War* and wanted to hone those tactics.

I believe they approached the Australian Navy to borrow/lease a Collins SSK for a time but were denied. Some chauvinistic parts of the Oz submarine community might claim they didn't want to share their tactics but the reality is likely, with such a huge area of responsibility and only 6 boats the RAN could not spare one.

Interestingly a discussion item (at least) for the next gen RAN submarine is a non-nuclear version of the USN Virginia class.

Cheers

* A newly belligerent Russia may change that again!
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Tugger
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 12):
Nuke subs are deep-water subs. Conventional (diesel/battery/fuel-cell) subs can operate much more efficiently in shallow areas (most of them are alot smaller as well...making them much more maneuverable in shallow waters as well).

Another thing to note, a nuke is generally better when bigger due to the plant scalability and the aforementioned noise isolation from said power plant. And this limits them to a more deep water role. For littoral operations others types of submersible craft are better and likely in near surface water (deep or not) a smaller sub is harder to find than a big sub.

The link on the U212/214 notes that it is able to submerge in 60 feet of water which is very shallow, so for "special forces" insertion this type of smaller submarine is superior to the Ohio class. This is actually an area that USA should address as we are becoming aware of how important it to operate in shallow water. For example the Persian/Arabian Gulf and Strait of Hormuz have an average depth of ~50m and max depths of 90-110m. I am surprised we haven't addressed this before but it is probably something like what the USAF suffers from, the leadership comes from a certain class of craft and discounts the need and usefulness of other types of craft.

One type of submarine is not superior over all others, OVERALL, each type is/should be superior to others in its designed for environment.

Tugg
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johns624
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:16 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 11):
So why is the US navy so keen on checking out the Swedish Gotland class submarine ? I beleave the US navy hired it for a year because of it's silent capabilities.

For the same reason that the USAF does dissimilar training with MIG's, etc???
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:30 am

The modification by the Israelis and HDW to fit additional 620 mm tubes on their German 212-Dolphins is an indication they can carry now nuclear warhead Cruise-Missiles in adjunction to torpedos.
The 212 have antimagnetic hull while the 214's for Pakistan don't .Turkey and Egypt are also on the list of future clients for the 214's.
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Alessandro
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:03 pm

Gotland class submarine isn´t fuelcell it´s powered by Stirling engines, which is less vibrating and dependent on air than other conventional submarines.
Nuclear submarines are generally much bigger than conventional due the shielding around the reactor.
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Beaucaire
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 13):
I believe they approached the Australian Navy to borrow/lease a Collins SSK for a time but were denied. Some chauvinistic parts of the Oz submarine community might claim they didn't want to share their tactics but the reality is likely, with such a huge area of responsibility and only 6 boats the RAN could not spare one.

Interestingly a discussion item (at least) for the next gen RAN submarine is a non-nuclear version of the USN Virginia class.

Those subs have been manufactured in Adelaide but based on a Swedish Kokum design..
Kokum has been bought in 2004 by HDW (Howalds Deutsche Werft ) in Kiel,which ,in their turn, have been acquired by One Equity Partners (USA )
So while the Germans and Swedish can be considered as key-players in the construction of modern non-nuclear subs,the true owners are the other side of the Atlantic..
I would never have authorisede the sale of HDW to the Americans !
Imagine that General Electric's "Electric Boat "division would have been bought by the French DCN or Chinese-unthinkable !
In my eyes that was a major mistake of Gerhard Schröder ! You don't sell off strategic companies -full stop !
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GQfluffy
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:33 pm

Good stuff, B. While I know I came off as a pompous ass in previous posts, you have a lot of good information on conventional subs.  bigthumbsup 
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pelican
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:01 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 18):
Those subs have been manufactured in Adelaide but based on a Swedish Kokum design..
Kokum has been bought in 2004 by HDW (Howalds Deutsche Werft ) in Kiel,which ,in their turn, have been acquired by One Equity Partners (USA )
So while the Germans and Swedish can be considered as key-players in the construction of modern non-nuclear subs,the true owners are the other side of the Atlantic..
I would never have authorisede the sale of HDW to the Americans !

Old news - One Equity Partners has sold HDW to ThyssenKrupp. So HDW is again owned by a German company with a US (One Equity Partners) stake of 25 per cent which will be sold eventually.

pelican
 
baroque
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RE: Question Regarding Submarines..

Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:34 pm



Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 9):
Also, wasn't there a detection method where supercomputers listen to the background noise of the ocean, looking for "holes" or silences in the background where probability says they shouldn't be? I could see this as being the only practical method of detection where the 626 is concerned.

Perhaps the same holds for submarine engineers on a.net. In which case the presence of the Astute one can be determined from their absence!

Quoting Pelican (Reply 20):
Old news - One Equity Partners has sold HDW to ThyssenKrupp. So HDW is again owned by a German company with a US (One Equity Partners) stake of 25 per cent which will be sold eventually.

It would be interesting to know how Equity Partners is faring in the Wall St meltdown - some financial journos comment that the really bit wave will be as the Private Equity funds have to sell out.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 13):
Interestingly a discussion item (at least) for the next gen RAN submarine is a non-nuclear version of the USN Virginia class.

I do hope the next gen is managed better than the last gen!! It does appear that the Collins in the end are relatively quiet. But who is going to admit that their subs are a tad on the noisy side?

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