eaa3
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Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:39 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/op...partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

"The study analyzed trace data for guns used in connection with crimes during 2007. The data reveal a strong correlation between weak state gun laws and higher rates of in-state murders, police slayings and sales of guns used in crimes in other states."

Interesting. I've heard the opposite from some in this forum i.e. More access to guns= less gun crime.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:45 pm

Unfortunately, because you used the "Liberal Elitist" New York Times as a source, regardless of the validity of the study, it will be immediately discredited as left wing propaganda.

Too bad. How about finding the primary source for the study and posting that link.
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johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:11 am

What about California. They have tough gun laws, yet gangs have no problem killing each other with guns.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:21 am



Quoting Eaa3 (Thread starter):

Washington DC has one of the toughest gun laws in the country....and the highest crime rates in the country
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:22 am



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 2):
What about California. They have tough gun laws, yet gangs have no problem killing each other with guns.

Probably. But until you can provide data as to the prevalence of shootings in California compared to the national average, it is not terribly informative.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
How about finding the primary source for the study and posting that link.

I have been trying but because the report has yet to be released, I do not think you will find anything solid until the release of the full report.
 
Superfly
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:36 am

I don't feel any safer with our strict gun laws here in San Francisco, California.


As much as I do not like this particular source, there is a lot of truth in this article that the anti-gun crowd conveniently ignores. (dated 2005)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0131/p02s01-ussc.html
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dxing
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:34 am



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Unfortunately, because you used the "Liberal Elitist" New York Times as a source, regardless of the validity of the study, it will be immediately discredited as left wing propaganda.

Especially since it's an editorial and the source material is not linked.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Too bad. How about finding the primary source for the study and posting that link.

Yep. When that becomes available I'm willing to bet the story will look a lot different.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:49 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Washington DC has one of the toughest gun laws in the country....and the highest crime rates in the country

Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across and by them somewhere else?

Quoting Eaa3 (Thread starter):
Interesting. I've heard the opposite from some in this forum i.e. More access to guns= less gun crime.

Thats ridiculous... just take a look at all the OECD countries. The US gun control laws are a complete and utter joke...no wonder why you have the highest rate of gun crime and gun related deaths in the developed world! (and not by a small margin either both in total gun crime and per capita rates).
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EMBQA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:06 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across and by them somewhere else?

Because you can't do that. You must be a resident of the state you live in to buy a gun... or go through a FLL Dealer in your state and have the gun shipped to that dealer from out of state FFL dealer. You still need to go through all the background checks.

[Edited 2008-12-23 19:07:31]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
RussianJet
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:14 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
there is a lot of truth in this article that the anti-gun crowd conveniently ignores. (dated 2005)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0131/p02s01-ussc.html

I like this bit:
"some of the most far-reaching gun-control laws to spread across the country, including assault-weapons bans and monthly limits on how many guns one person can purchase."

Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?! "Oh hi Fred. How many guns would you like today?" "Oh, just the ten guns for me this month please. Money's been a bit tight recently, you see."
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
EMBQA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:19 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):

Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?

Phoney dealers.....???? You need to have a FFL Dealer license to sell legally....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
RussianJet
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:26 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):
Phoney dealers.

So tackle phoney dealers and let me buy my fifty guns for, ahem, 'hunting'.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:45 am

Gun control is just a symbolic gesture at best or social engineering at worst. People who want to hurt each other will still do it. Guns don't make it any easier or enable violence for people who have the motive to kill. So do you really think gun laws change people? The UK with it's famous (or infamous) gun control now has people asking for regulation on kitchen knives due to the number of stabbings that take place:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4581871.stm

In the end, the people who lose are law-abiding citizens who are robbed of a completely legitimate means of defending themselves.
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?! "Oh hi Fred. How many guns would you like today?" "Oh, just the ten guns for me this month please. Money's been a bit tight recently, you see."

Sounds like jealousy to me. We may not buy guns monthly, but we CAN. Great Britain's tough gun laws never seemed to stop the IRA, did they?
 
diamond
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:05 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Yep. When that becomes available I'm willing to bet the story will look a lot different.



Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Especially since it's an editorial and the source material is not linked.

The article & data that the NY Times referred to came from a December 2008 study done by the "Mayors Against Illegla Guns" organization.

From the "about us" portion of their site: " ... We are extremely pleased that over 320 mayors from more than 40 states have joined the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition, and we welcome other mayors to stand with us. Over the coming months, we will continue to work with our fellow mayors to share best practices, develop innovative policies, and support legislation at the national, state, and local levels that will help law enforcement target illegal guns ... "

The study itself can be found here:

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....wnloads/pdf/trace_report_final.pdf
Blank.
 
eaa3
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:44 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Especially since it's an editorial and the source material is not linked.

The New York Times may be liberal but they are honest so I don´t really see the point of doubting it.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:08 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across and by them somewhere else?

Because you can't do that. You must be a resident of the state you live in to buy a gun... or go through a FLL Dealer in your state and have the gun shipped to that dealer from out of state FFL dealer. You still need to go through all the background checks.

or just buy one 2nd hand off someone else...
or dodgy gun dealers...
or list your address as in state
or get a drivers license from that state
or one of many other methods its not hard when there are about as many guns as people out there.

I'm of the opinion that there is no real need for a private citizen to have a handgun.
Farmers can have their shotguns and 303 rifles etc, the police and military can have their handguns etc too. The problem is of course that there are already too many guns out there. It's a process that would take 30 years to really get under control and even then there would be a lot of old guns out there or guns brought in illegally from Mexico.

Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime.
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Mir
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:11 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 14):
The study itself can be found here:

The first half of that report is all about guns being exported from states that have lax gun laws to those that have tough gun laws, and then being used in crimes there. Which isn't surprising, since if you want to get a gun and the state you're living in won't let you, you can just go over the border and get one at a gun show, where the background check requirements are less, or don't exist at all.

The statistics on gun murders and police shootings (pages 25 and 26 of the report) are interesting, though - they say that in states with a high number of exported guns, the gun murder rates and the police shooting rates are higher. One assumes that gun laws are more lax in these states, since that's what creates the export market in the first place.

-Mir
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signol
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:17 am



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 13):
Great Britain's tough gun laws never seemed to stop the IRA, did they?

The hint there is the letter "I" - as in Irish, so not British, so our gun laws don't come into it.

signol
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HOMER71
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:26 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 15):
New York Times may be liberal but they are honest

Absolutely, the NYT relies on accurate reporting from their "journalists"

Sincerely,
Jayson Blair
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:40 pm



Quoting Signol (Reply 18):
The hint there is the letter "I" - as in Irish, so not British, so our gun laws don't come into it.

Last time I checked, Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain. People are always laughing about how Americans don't know anything about geography, I see we're not the only ones.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:43 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?! "Oh hi Fred. How many guns would you like today?" "Oh, just the ten guns for me this month please. Money's been a bit tight recently, you see."

I have bought four this year for myself and four as gifts.

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 19):
Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 15):
New York Times may be liberal but they are honest

Absolutely, the NYT relies on accurate reporting from their "journalists"

Sincerely,
Jayson Blair

The NYT is only honest is you happen to believe what it says. Why are some people so quick to believe everything the news media says about this topic. All the time I read people's threads about the news media screwing up avaition stories. If they screw up those stories why wouldn't they get their facts wrong on other stories too. Two papers can have very different angles on the same story.

A few years ago a man, from Detroit, was shot as he was driving on the Ohio Turnpike. The next morning I read the Detroit Free Press and the story made it sound like a random crime and this guy was just a victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Later that day I drove to Pittsburgh and bought a paper there. That evening (it was still the morning edition) I read a story about the same shooting and the story was about a gang related drug deal gone bad and a chase that ended in a shooting. It was amazing the the difference in reporting of the same story.

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
since if you want to get a gun and the state you're living in won't let you, you can just go over the border and get one at a gun show, where the background check requirements are less, or don't exist at all.

Have you ever bought a gun at a gun show? The NCIC check is the same at all of them. If you really want to commit a violent crime you are better off to buy one on the street for $50 (cheap handgun) that was illegaly imported. Where would you buy an illegal gun on the street? Any number of drug dealers in Detroit (or any other city) will get you one.

Not every gun used in a crime was purchased legaly at one point in its life. Liberals will never understand that. There are millions of guns brought into this country illegaly every year. We can't stop drugs or illegal immagrants so what makes you think we can stop guns that are illegaly brought into the country? If you have 500 assault rifles show up stuck in a shipping container. They are brought into the counrty illegally and sold to people in the drug trade. Lets say another 500 similar guns is imported legally and sold at local retail shops where all the customers are legal. Which 500 guns are more likely used in the commission of a violent crime? That is an easy question to answer, but who gets the blame when something goes wrong? It is a lot easier to point fingers at the law abiding gun store that everyone can see, but the shaddy importer gets no notice at all.



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime

It isn't just laws that make people safe. The type of society is relavant too. Russia has a lot of violent crime, but gun ownership is restricted. If Canada had the population that the USA did and had the huge amounts of street gangs they would have the same problems as the USA.

Murder is already against the law and if you are going to commit murder you already have a problem. When people think it is ok to kill people that is the real problem. We need to combat that problem. There has always been guns in the USA and at one time they were as easy to get as ordering them from Sears or buyintg them at the hardware store. There were few laws regarding firearms. We didn't start to see these problems in society until the 1960s when the morality and godlessness took over. I am glad to see the liberals made world safer by making sure that we all do whatever we feel like and have taken god out of our lives.

We all have to remember that very little gun crime in the USA is Random. A lot of the crimes we hear about are drug related, in some way. Get rid of the drugs and a lot of our crime would go away.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
I'm of the opinion that there is no real need for a private citizen to have a handgun.

A government that doesn't trust its citizens with firearms should not be trusted with firearms itself.

I will never give up my guns. I will die to defend my rights. I will kill to defend my rights. If we eliminate part of the US Constitution we might as well get rid of the entire thing. The Bill of Rights it NOT open for discussion. A lot of people want to think that the 2nd ammendment is regarding the military, that is a load of crap. Why would anyone think that the founders of the USA would have to make a provision so the military could own guns? What kind of a country wouldn't allow the military to own guns?
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:47 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
or just buy one 2nd hand off someone else...
or dodgy gun dealers...
or list your address as in state
or get a drivers license from that state
or one of many other methods its not hard when there are about as many guns as people out there.

It's a process that would take 30 years to really get under control and even then there would be a lot of old guns out there or guns brought in illegally from Mexico.

Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime.

There are so many misconceptions in your post, let's see if I can correct the most obvious.
There are very, very few "dodgy" gun dealers. Requirements were tightened several years ago that put just about all "part-time" dealers out of business.
You just can't list an address from another state. There are Federal background checks.
You have to meet residency requirements beore you can get a license from a state. You must also turn in your old license.
Any person buying a gun from a dealer (even at a gun show) has to undergo a Federal (FBI) background check.
Mexico has tougher gun laws than the US. Of course, that doesn't stop their drug cartels from shooting up towns.
 
signol
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 20):
Last time I checked, Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain. People are always laughing about how Americans don't know anything about geography, I see we're not the only ones.

I think you'll find that whilst Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, it is not part of Great Britain (the country's official name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"). But that's for another thread  Smile

signol
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:03 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 14):
The article & data that the NY Times referred to came from a December 2008 study done by the "Mayors Against Illegla Guns" organization.

Gee, you think they may have had an idea of the desired result of the "study" before they started? Sounds about as unbiased as an NRA study.

While it's true that the gun show loophole needs fixing, the primary culprit here is the anti-gun lobby and the very difficult hurdles put in place to obtaining an FFL. For somebody who would like to buy and sell guns primarily as a hobby but maybe make a few dollars along the way, the FFL fees and local business license requirements are probably OK but the inflexible requirement to have a brick and mortar place of business puts it well out of reach of most who don't want to make a complete living of it. Requiring a secure storage area would be one thing but a separate place of business(basement, etc. won't do) is ridiculous. We would be well served if the laws were changed to encourage bringing people into the regulated system of buying and selling firearms rather than forcing them out of it.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
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falstaff
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 24):
Sounds about as unbiased as an NRA study.

I am a Life member of the NRA and I have always taken some of their reporting with a grain of salt because I know they will lean to their point of view. However this past summer I spent some time in Leeds, England and I was constantly hearing about knife crime in the area. I read it in the paper and saw it reported on TV. The reports I read from the NRA about knife crime in the UK seemed to be right on the money about the state of crime there. In some places I felt less safe than in Detroit. I would look at somebody and wonder; is that guy going to rob me with a knife or gun? At home I think the same, but I have one too and he knows that I might have a gun too so he may think twice. At least I can carry a gun there and not use it and not be commiting a crime. When I carry a gun I feel like I am in control of my own future. That may sound odd to some, but think of the people who will not fly but drive their car on a long trip. They are more likely to die in a car crash, but they like to be in control.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
seb146
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:03 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across and by them somewhere else?

That is just what I was thinking. California may have strict gun laws, but Oregon and Texas do not have as strict gun laws. So, what is to stop someone from visiting Oregon or Texas and, while there, picking up a gun or twenty?

Even though I am percieved to be a liberal and grew up in rural Oregon where people actually use guns to sustain their families (by hunting deer, elk, bear, etc.) and know guns can be used for good, I am still percieved to be a liberal...
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
eaa3
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:09 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 25):
I am a Life member of the NRA and I have always taken some of their reporting with a grain of salt because I know they will lean to their point of view. However this past summer I spent some time in Leeds, England and I was constantly hearing about knife crime in the area. I read it in the paper and saw it reported on TV. The reports I read from the NRA about knife crime in the UK seemed to be right on the money about the state of crime there. In some places I felt less safe than in Detroit. I would look at somebody and wonder; is that guy going to rob me with a knife or gun? At home I think the same, but I have one too and he knows that I might have a gun too so he may think twice. At least I can carry a gun there and not use it and not be commiting a crime. When I carry a gun I feel like I am in control of my own future. That may sound odd to some, but think of the people who will not fly but drive their car on a long trip. They are more likely to die in a car crash, but they like to be in control.

So ok. Knife crime is on the rise in Britain. Would the solution be to introduce guns into the equation!!!
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:38 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 27):
So ok. Knife crime is on the rise in Britain. Would the solution be to introduce guns into the equation!!!

Potentially yes. I used to live in Burlington County, NJ which is really and truly one of only a handful of gun friendly areas of the state but happens to be wedged closely between the cesspools of Philadelphia and Atlantic City. Despite the proximity to these major centers of crime, we had NO crime to speak of and didn't have to worry about locking doors, etc. The criminals knew that the population of the area was well armed and respected this by avoiding it.

Again, guns and other weapons aren't the problem - criminals with guns or other weapons are.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Signol (Reply 23):
think you'll find that whilst Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, it is not part of Great Britain (the country's official name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"). But that's for another thread

And the laws in NI differ how from GB???  Confused

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 26):
That is just what I was thinking. California may have strict gun laws, but Oregon and Texas do not have as strict gun laws. So, what is to stop someone from visiting Oregon or Texas and, while there, picking up a gun or twenty?

So, if guns are the cause of crime, why don't laxer gun law states like Oregon and Texas (YOUR examples) have a higher crime rate than California? That's ignoring the fact that you can't buy a handgun out of state in the first place...
Look people, Falstaff has it right. Everyone always complains about the media screwing up aviation stories, but accepts what they write as God's truth when they print something erroneous about guns. I've been a Firearms Manager of one of the largest national outdoor retail chains and know my gun laws inside and out, and most of you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:43 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 28):
which is really and truly one of only a handful of gun friendly areas of the state

That is the reason of your security, not because you have guns, but because the areas around you have not. If guns where to be introduced in the whole of the UK, or the whole EU for that matter, then crime would still happen. Except, burglers will take no chances knowing that the other guy may have a gun. It will escalate violence.
Attamottamotta!
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:00 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 29):
And the laws in NI differ how from GB???  

John's, you are referring to a terrorist group. Do you think the gun laws of any country mattered to them? Comparing them to citizens holding firearms is, at best, a poor comparison.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
fr8mech
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:03 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 26):
So, what is to stop someone from visiting Oregon or Texas and, while there, picking up a gun or twenty?

Typically, in order to buy a firearms, you have to establish residency or prove you are legally able to purchase a firearm in your state of resisdency.

Someone who has a propensity to commit a crime such as gun trafficking, will more than likely have a criminal record, which in most cases will preclude them from owning a firearm. There are exceptions. I guess I can decide to buy a small arsenal, drive to NY and sell them on the street.

We once again come to the statement that criminals do not obey the law. Gun laws prohibiting the ownership/carrying of guns do not dissuade the criminal, they dissuade the law-abiding. These laws produce areas where only the criminals and the police have guns.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:03 pm



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 30):
That is the reason of your security, not because you have guns, but because the areas around you have not. If guns where to be introduced in the whole of the UK, or the whole EU for that matter, then crime would still happen. Except, burglers will take no chances knowing that the other guy may have a gun. It will escalate violence.

I would disagree. Our big problems with guns are in large, urban areas where it is most difficult for law abiding citizens to legally carry a weapon. The criminals know this and feel empowered. In cases where a crime is occuring, I'm all for escalating the violence as long as it's directed at the criminal - has a much better long term deterrant effect than 3 squares and a cot in an institution of higher criminal learning.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
Mir
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:15 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 22):
Any person buying a gun from a dealer (even at a gun show) has to undergo a Federal (FBI) background check.

And, in many states, anyone buying a gun from a private seller at a gun show does not. That needs fixing.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
petertenthije
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:21 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 33):
cases where a crime is occuring, I'm all for escalating the violence as long as it's directed at the criminal

The criminal will always have the advantage as he picks the time, location and target. Unless the reflexes of the person being robbed are lightning fast, the robber will win. I have no doubt you will be able to supply me with a list where someone was saved due to a gun. Likewise I am convinced someone else will come up with a list robberies that escalated beyond control.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand keeping the relaxed (by European standards) gun laws in the US. Guns have spread and there is no taking them back anymore. Especially considering some folks are really gun-ho "they can take my gun from my cold dead fingers"-types. However, to export US gun laws and gun-culture to the UK/Europe, no way!
Attamottamotta!
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:39 pm



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 31):
John's, you are referring to a terrorist group. Do you think the gun laws of any country mattered to them? Comparing them to citizens holding firearms is, at best, a poor comparison.

No, it's a great comparison. Substitute "drug dealers" for "terrorist group" and you'll see what I mean. The point I was trying to make was that no matter how strict gun laws are, those ourside the law always have a source.
Besides, what is wrong with law-abiding citizens owning guns?

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 30):
burglers will take no chances knowing that the other guy may have a gun. It will escalate violence

Wrong. What it means is that burglars will either only break into unoccupied homes, thereby cutting down on violence, or become honest citizens.
An interesting story...when I was working at a national chain, a man came in looking for a safety switch for a Mossberg 500 shotgun. I could tell that he was Australian, so I asked if it was registered. His reply was "do you think I would be looking for the part here if it was?" Unfortunately, he was going back home in 2 days and we couldn't get him the part in time. Nonviolent civil disobedience warms my heart on occasion...
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:59 pm



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 35):
However, to export US gun laws and gun-culture to the UK/Europe, no way!

Whoever said they wanted to do that? We'll keep our guns and you can keep your royalty. Fair trade?  Smile
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:59 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 36):
No, it's a great comparison. Substitute "drug dealers" for "terrorist group" and you'll see what I mean.

The glaring difference is that the drug dealers of the States managed to arm themselves in a nation awash with firearms whilst the IRA had to smuggle their arms in, but I accept your main point.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 36):
Besides, what is wrong with law-abiding citizens owning guns?

If its law of the land, nothing. But it seems to me that you want guns because the criminal element has guns. So the problem appears to be the prevalence of guns in the US and the belief that having a firearm makes you less likely to be a victim of crime. The rate of homicide in your nation does not support this.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 37):
We'll keep our guns and you can keep your royalty. Fair trade?

Her Majesty is far less deadly!!!
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
keesje
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:18 pm

Don't like the outcomes ; discredit the source.

A Pavlov reaction.

I guess when everybody wouldn't loves guns and learned their kids it's a right, laws or enforcing them doesn't have to be so strict.

Here in the Netherlands old & young, everybody uses bikes without helmets, also statistically stupid & dangerous, still even suggesting it leads to strange looks..

http://earthfirst.com/wp-content/upl...08/06/amsterdam-bike-montage-1.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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falstaff
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:30 pm



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 35):
Likewise I am convinced someone else will come up with a list robberies that escalated beyond control.

That depends on what you mean by out of control. A dead robber would be fantastic, but some would see that as a bad thing. If you commit a crime against a person you run the risk of getting killed. I feel no sympathy for for any criminal.

Quoting Mir (Reply 34):
And, in many states, anyone buying a gun from a private seller at a gun show does not. That needs fixing.

Anyone who wants to knock on gun shows should go to one and buy a gun. You will see that they are nothing like what is shown by the anti gun media. In Michigan you can't buy a gun from a private seller at a gun show unless you have an FFL. Guess what happens? They just go out in the parking lot and do it. Most illegal gun sales happen in back alleys and behind closed doors. Most people commiting crimes don't do it in a public area.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 38):
The glaring difference is that the drug dealers of the States managed to arm themselves in a nation awash with firearms whilst the IRA had to smuggle their arms in

Drug dealers still bring in many guns. Every year thousands of automatic weapons are siezed from drug dealers and none of them was ever sold legally in the USA. The world of organized crime likes illegally imported guns because there is no way to trace them back to anyone.

Before 1968 just about any gun was legal in the US and there were few laws regarding guns in most states. We put strict laws in place and look what happened, a bunch of nuts shooting up the place. We didn't have school shootings back in the day when you could buy a gun, booze, and TNT at the hardware store. At one time you could order guns from Sears and Montgomery Ward (Hand guns too) and there was no checks of any kind. What happened was the decay of values and morality not the access to guns.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:55 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 40):
Drug dealers still bring in many guns. Every year thousands of automatic weapons are siezed from drug dealers and none of them was ever sold legally in the USA. The world of organized crime likes illegally imported guns because there is no way to trace them back to anyone

Whilst I do not doubt what you say, my comment was in context to a terrorist group arming themselves in a non-gun nation. However Falstaff, I would be astonished if the majority of guns being used by criminals in the US did not originate there (and I am not referring to manufacture).
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
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falstaff
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:30 am



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 41):
However Falstaff, I would be astonished if the majority of guns being used by criminals in the US did not originate there (and I am not referring to manufacture).

I would agree with your statement. I think the gun's origin may vary greatly with the type of crime and criminal.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:16 am



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 38):
But it seems to me that you want guns because the criminal element has guns

Yes and no. I own around a dozen guns at the present. They are like golf clubs, one can't do everything. They are about equally divided between hunting, target and defensive guns, although there is some overlap.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:53 am



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 38):
But it seems to me that you want guns because the criminal element has guns.

I own a gun because I do not want to be dependent on anyone else to defend my life and property. I don't even live in an area with high crime, but the preparation of owning a firearm is dirt cheap compared with the loss I could potentially face if I didn't have one.

If I was being robbed or threatened, not only could the police be anywhere from 10-15 minutes away, they might not come at all. I live close to the Gulf Coast, and anyone who has survived a hurricane can tell you that law enforcement is spotty in the wake of a natural disaster. Sometimes crisis brings out the best people, sometimes it brings out the worst. Either way, I have taken the rational preparations to reduce the chance that I will become a victim.

Lastly, I don't even expect that someone threatening me would themselves be armed with a gun. But having a firearm and knowing how to use it properly levels the playing field between myself and anyone with greater physical strength or skill.
 
mham001
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:17 am

I heard on the radio today (from a liberal talk host) that 55% of gun deaths in the US are suicides. I suppose that would technically fit as a crime statistic but does put a different spin on the numbers.
 
johns624
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 38):
Her Majesty is far less deadly!!!

The current one, anyway!  Smile
I was really referring to a country's traditions and customs that "outsiders" don't understand but the host country feels a need for (the majority, anyhow).
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:11 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 2):
What about California. They have tough gun laws, yet gangs have no problem killing each other with guns.

Numbers become important. As in deaths per homocide per 100,000 inhabitants.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 14):

The article & data that the NY Times referred to came from a December 2008 study done by the "Mayors Against Illegla Guns" organization.

That does make it suspect but not necessarily invalid. It's important to carefully review the methodology of the study to ensure that it was properly done.

That said, as long as the current U.S.A. exists, I will never support the illegalization of guns. Because if we can get rid of Amendment #2, then why not #1 or #4 or #5? Sorry. That one needs to remain sacrosanct.

Now, if the country collapses and we need a 100% new Constitution, then I would oppose adding back the 2nd Amendment.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
That said, as long as the current U.S.A. exists, I will never support the illegalization of guns. Because if we can get rid of Amendment #2, then why not #1 or #4 or #5? Sorry. That one needs to remain sacrosanct.

As long as you don't bring your arsenal of guns when you permanently move to Australia next month, you can support whatever you want. Once you set foot here, it's back to a normal society where the police has the guns and citizens abide by the law.

 biggrin 
 
flymia
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RE: Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime

Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:27 am



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across

Lets not forget Washington DC is not a city, its pretty much like a state. You cant buy a gun outside of the state you live in.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 45):
heard on the radio today (from a liberal talk host) that 55% of gun deaths in the US are suicides.

I have heard this before also, I think it is true.

I think anyone should be able to have a gun as long as they have a completely clean criminal record and have no mental problems etc.. The problem in the US is it is to easy to buy guns in some places.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)

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