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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:43 am

Given that this topic has generated substantial discussion to date and events are still unfolding in relation to it we are initiating a 4th thread on the subject. The previous three threads are linked below;

Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:10 am

Not a great article but a pretty good one seeing the side of Israel and what they people are thinking. Israel had a good program set up for sirens to go off when rockets are in the air.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/31/wo...eeast/31israel.html?ref=middleeast

Here is a quote from the article that sums up some of our thinking here:

Quote:
Oren Idelman, 33, an investment adviser at a nearby bank, said, “I’m prepared to live like this for months, as long as the army continues this aggressive line.” The Gazans “have to understand that if we get hit, they get hit,” he said.

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fridgmus
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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:41 am

This is something that HAD to be done. Hamas must be neutralized, plain and simple. No matter what they say, the Fatah Govt in the West Bank is definitely in favor of this action. And I would venture to guess some other moderate Arab governments (Egypt, Jordan perhaps?) feel the same way also.

Laugh or flame me, but a neutralized Hamas will at least lead to the Peace Process being re-started in earnest.

Just my opinion.

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allstarflyer
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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:44 am

Amidst all the attention given to Israel's strikes, they reportedly are and have been open to different actions from opening humanitarian aid to even ending the strikes, even though Ehud Barak claimed a fight to "the bitter end". They've been described as "open to ways of increasing humanitarian aid", "open to humanitarian truce in Gaza" and have considered a "48-hour halt to Gaza air campaign".

Amidst all this, though, Israel has said they "need assurances that Hamas would hold fire too", and the consideration for the halt also "would be with a threat to send in ground troops if the rocket fire continues." So, it looks like Israel has offered its olive branches - now it's a waiting game for Hamas to do the same.

Here's a shocker - the Wall Street Journal hoping that Israel wins - for the sake of the Palestinians - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1230...2944538487.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Edited for grammar

[Edited 2008-12-31 02:47:52]
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EZEIZA
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RE: Isreali Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:01 am



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
This is something that HAD to be done.

Correct

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
Hamas must be neutralized, plain and simple.

correct as well

Unfortunately, this action has done anything but neutralize Hamas

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
Here's a shocker - the Wall Street Journal hoping that Israel wins - for the sake of the Palestinians - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1230...s_wsj

Talk about bias!
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:14 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/...on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

and here is the core of the problem, and what most of Israel's critics in this action have been saying:

"Israel said it would allow 2,000 tons of food and medical supplies to enter Gaza on Wednesday" why should Israel allow or not allow anything?

but most important:

"Most of Gaza's 1.4 million residents rely on U.N. food handouts."

you see, when something like this happen due to a ghetto-style blockade, how do you expect those people to react? When a terrorist is there recuriting people, when he says "Israel is doing this to us", is he wrong?
What's the point of these airstrikes!? they will do nothing to Hamas and kill hundreds of civilians for nothing. End the blockade, and you'll kill Hamas' recruitment speech. Stop giving them a reason!!
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baroque
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RE: Isreali Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:19 am



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
Here's a shocker - the Wall Street Journal hoping that Israel wins - for the sake of the Palestinians - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1230...s_wsj

Or you could get a bit closer to the action and read
http://www.haaretz.com/

Many and varied opinions including:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051317.html

And I am sure some will enjoy the 69 at last count comments a fair few of which are effectively telling Gideon he is at best an idiot, and some appear to want to burn him at the stake. However some think he is correct

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051356.html
Has the comment.
Hamas can rack up its first victory for its methods as several European countries are already talking about a "humanitarian" cease-fire, and Egypt has been fixed in the public eye as a collaborator with Israel. This will make it hard for Egypt to act as a mediator between Hamas and Israel, and the war in Gaza will require international involvement and certainly active Syrian involvement to end the hostilities.

In that way Gaza goes from being a local dispute between Israel and Hamas to the status of half a state with the same status as Israel, so hopes Hamas.


Well there you go, if you have a war with them, Hamas must have some status. Oh wait, they are already an elected government. So they are. And we know democracy is good. How confusing. I wonder what would happen if they were left to try and run a normal state within their borders without blockades and with normal access to trade. Oh yes, they would import the materials for rockets. That must be like their neighbours then.
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:58 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
a ghetto-style blockade, how do you expect those people to react?

Also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804113.stm
By Jeremy Bowen
Middle East editor, BBC News

Now that Israel and Hamas are in what the Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak called "war to the bitter end" let's look at some of their options.

First of all, is it really a war to the bitter end?

..
Hamas is a less conventional organisation. Its leaders realise that their reputation rests on their ideology of resistance.

The more pain they absorb, and the more they fight on, the more their stock rises among their supporters around the Middle East.

...
In wars like this the weak side knows it has no chance of defeating the strong one in a stand-up, knock-down fight.

So, it uses what it can to magnify the power that it has, and to concentrate it on what it perceives to be a soft spot.
...
But for Israel, this is about more than simply beating Hamas.

It wants also to expunge the black mark against the Israeli army's competence that has been there since it was fought to a standstill by Lebanese Hezbollah in 2006.


And there must be an argument for concluding that while Israel might feel it has damaged Hamas, Hamas might end up well pleased due to being in a stronger position. Overall, best not to start wars you cannot win. And that applies both to Hamas and Israel. But the Hamas definition of a win is far from that of its adversary and it might be easier to achieve.

Is the story of Brer Rabbit and the tarbaby not read these days in either Israel or the US?
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:31 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
When a terrorist is there recuriting people, when he says "Israel is doing this to us", is he wrong?

If he deliberately kills civilians just because they are Israeli, yes. At least with such action he is admitting to be worse than the ones he is suffering from.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
they will do nothing to Hamas and kill hundreds of civilians for nothing.

200+ dead Hamas extremists, terrorists and murderers, making it the majority of the ones killed, is nothing? Surely these attacks will "give birth" to more terrorists (idiots never vanish from this earth), but how in the world should Israel let Hamas allow to commit terrorist acts without stop?
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:40 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 8):
200+ dead Hamas extremists, terrorists and murderers, making it the majority of the ones killed, is nothing? Surely these attacks will "give birth" to more terrorists (idiots never vanish from this earth), but how in the world should Israel let Hamas allow to commit terrorist acts without stop?

my friend, you answered your own question. 200 Hamas members is nothing unless you get to the core of the problem. Right now, Hamas will have probably more support than ever. The way to stop terrorist groups is to get to the root of the problem.
End the blockade, give these people a reason to live for instead of a reason to blow eachother up. Hamas will stop being a solution and it will become a problem for them. In the other thread I used ETA as an example. If the Spanish govt' would isolate the basque country, wouldn't you agree ETA would be 10 times bigger than what it is now?
When people are oppressed, hopeless, hungry ... they have nothing to lose. That is the perfect condition for extremism to grow.
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:42 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
And there must be an argument for concluding that while Israel might feel it has damaged Hamas, Hamas might end up well pleased due to being in a stronger position. Overall, best not to start wars you cannot win. And that applies both to Hamas and Israel. But the Hamas definition of a win is far from that of its adversary and it might be easier to achieve.

Unfortunately, this is going to end up just like the Lebanon confilict, unfortunate because so many people have to die before the outside concerns do something concrete or those actually involved do something themselves.
Hezbollah calimed a win because it made them stronger in the Arab world, the only force to stand up to and "defeat" the Israelis
Israel lost soldiers, revealed to the world that Hezbollah did in fact have the missiles that everyone else said they did not have, busted up Lebanon and killed some fighters.

Now the reality, the UN is deployed on the border, the UN is once again enforcing its resolution that the Sheba Farms dispute is between Israel and Syria and that Syria cannot "give" the land to Lebanon to continue a conflict etc. etc. etc.

Bottom line is that the border of Israel and Lebanon is quite and both sides are now dealing with their internal issues, I look for the same thing to finally happen in Gaza, UN forces or monitors deployed on the Israel and Egyptian border and Gaza being supplied via both borders, why the locals had to die before external forces implemented such a solution should be the real nature of the debate.

Is Hezbollah now an Israel ally, NO, is Israel now a Hezbollah ally NO, does Hezbollah now recognize Israels right to exist, NO, does Israel now recognize Hezbollah as a political entity, NO, the only thing right now that the world cares about is that no fighting is taking place, unfortunate, because the reasons for the conflict remain, and will eventually re-ignite the violence, only then will it have some priority.
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 10):
revealed to the world that Hezbollah did in fact have the missiles that everyone else said they did not have

Remind me who thought that. Not many I wot of. I was a bit surprised they did not turn out to have more anti aircraft missiles so less not more I would have thought closer to the matter.

It seems according to the interpretations of Hez that they won. Anything else seems to be spin. It was written again and again in the media and in a.net, that it would be almost impossible to defeat Hez and if not defeated, they win. Hence do attack them.

Likely enough a repeat performance and that is how it will end for Hamas. What ever is Israel doing in effect promoting the more extreme of Palestinian religious movements. It could end up with a move to sanctify Arafat at this rate. How long do you suppose that Abbas will last if it does come to a vote?
 
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
How long do you suppose that Abbas will last if it does come to a vote?

If we support democracy it is the right of a people to elect whoever they wish, the residents of Gaza elected Hamas, the Israeli peple elected their govt. what elections cannot do is to force a country to deal with their neighbours, Israel does not have to recognize and or trade with a Hamas govt. that is even more so now that they have given over the border with Egypt, if they had not done so, by default they would have had to trade with them.
Gaza is where it is, it is not now and in my research never been physically connected to the West Bank, the connection is political not geographical, so Israel does not have to give land up to connect the two, that is a matter of negotiations.

Gaza is now and has been since the Israeli withdrawal in the same unique position of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan all the countries that border Israel and were or are officially at war with them, the ability to produce / run a functioning "country / territory" free from any Israeli influence, they did not take advantage of that option and the world certainely did not attempt to push them in that direction, its unfortunate but it is the reality. The border of Gaza and Egypt is the key to an independent Hamas Govt. along with a desire to do what is in the best interest of the population of Gaza, if the population demands that their happiness and well being be linked to the wider conflict that is also fine, how they do that is the key, if by violence is whatever form - kidnapping of soldiers, rocket / mortar fire - then we will be revisiting this type of thread in the near future, if they attempt non-violent means, the future could be different, the question would then be, how many of the Hamas backers would like to see a peaceful and thriving independent Gaza versus a lightning rod in the continued conflict.

The world is tired of this, and based on the demonstrations all over pro and con, people are concerned, just not enough to offer up more concrete and viable solutions, and yes by that I mean that telling Israel right now to withdraw to the 1948 or 1967 borders is not viable in the current environment, it may be the ultimate goal but there are numerous steps to be taken before we get there, pushing for that immediately is not constructive and if suggested is only being done to essentially continue the status quo.
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:17 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 9):
Hamas will have probably more support than ever.

If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

Dont get me wrong, I agree that Israels oppression of the Palestinians, especially of this tiny strip of land called Gaza, is not a glorious chapter of a people once oppressed in a far worse way, just 3 generations ago.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 9):
End the blockade, give these people a reason to live for instead of a reason to blow eachother up.

The crux is both sides have proven not to be wise. Israel would let them live better, if the Palestinians wouldnt use every possible opportunity to bring in guns instead of food. The Palestinian terrorists are the worst players in the game, they need to fall first, if you ask me. A democratic country cannot just accept the existence of terrorist organisations and even somehow reward them by treating them good.
The right idea would be Israel asking to deliver all Hamas members to be sentenced and imprisoned. But thats unreal, too much this terroristic cancer sits in the flesh of the Palestinians.
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:37 pm

Latest news: Analysts expect the fights to end in the next days. Ground fighting is now unlikely. (Source: Der Spiegel)
Good if true.
But is that the promised Israeli fighting to the end?
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:42 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):

I like to keep my viewpoint from being restricted to one source. Haaertz, though being very influential, as well as described as a liberal news source - they look like the NYT of Israel - is but one source in Israel. "Closer to the action" would require getting a better all-round viewpoint . . . I wonder if Haaertz would report about Israel treating Palestinian wounded . . . and I'm glad you identified Gideon's remarks as opinion. Anyways . . .

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
Hamas must have some status.

They do - http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#1

"Hamas is the largest and most influential Palestinian militant movement."

"Since attaining power, Hamas has continued its refusal to recognize the state of Israel."

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
I wonder what would happen if they were left to try and run a normal state within their borders without blockades and with normal access to trade.

Hmm . . . from the structure of your paragraph, "they" can only mean "Hamas", so, to answer your query as to "what would happen if they were left to try and run a normal state", etc. - "(i)ts founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel."

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
Oh yes, they would import the materials for rockets.

To fulfill the aforementioned, why not?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
That must be like their neighbours then.

Hamas readying themselves in an attitude of using only measures of self-preservation truly would be a new thing. It would do them and the world well if they were like their neighbors in continually complying with demands to restrict themselves to their own areas and not meddle in the affairs of other neighbors. How often has Hamas given back areas of land? How often has Hamas treated the wounded of the enemy they've sworn to kill? How often has had Hamas (or Hez) been forced to exercise strict measures (for example - keep prisoners in retaliation) for their own countrymen being kidnapped in an unprovoked manner? How often has Hamas had to deal with suicide bombers in their midst? I know one of the neighbors of Hamas has often been through all that and more.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
Israel does not have to recognize and or trade with a Hamas govt.

But they need to remain aware that the charter of Hamas "commits the group to the destruction of Israel".
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Emmett
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:57 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
Gaza is now and has been since the Israeli withdrawal in the same unique position of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan all the countries that border Israel and were or are officially at war with them, the ability to produce / run a functioning "country / territory" free from any Israeli influence

What is the factual base for such an assertion? Neither Lebanon, nor Syria, Egypt or Jordan are encircled by Israeli barbed wire. Inhabitants of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan do not need the permission of Israeli officials to enter or leave their country. The inhabitants of Gaza are totally at the mercy of Israel in every single respect, including the right to enter and leave Gaza, supply of electricity, telephone connections and transport of merchandise. Since the occupation of Gaza by Israel in 1967, Israel deliberately prevented Gaza to become economically self-sustaining. For many years, most Gazans were used as cheap labor in Israel. Now they have neither work in Israel nor the financial means to establish industries. They are merely surviving against great odds.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The world is tired of this, and based on the demonstrations all over pro and con, people are concerned, just not enough to offer up more concrete and viable solutions, and yes by that I mean that telling Israel right now to withdraw to the 1948 or 1967 borders is not viable in the current environment, it may be the ultimate goal but there are numerous steps to be taken before we get there, pushing for that immediately is not constructive and if suggested is only being done to essentially continue the status quo.

Who is "the world" which allegedly is "tired of this"? And if the "world" is "tired of this", why is the "world" not ensuring that the people of Gaza achieve their human rights, namely to live in freedom, security and well-being, as they deserve to do? At least, the Israelis do. Why shouldn't the people of Gaza have such a right?

And what "solution" will the withdrawal of Israel be without allowing the Gazans who were expelled from Askalon and other cities and villages in Israel, to return there, in accordance with their entitlement to return to their erstwhile locations? Are Gazans sub-humans whose right to live in the town of their birth is lesser than the right of fake Jews from Leningrad or of real Jews from Ethiopia to live in the homes of expelled Arabs?

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

There is a logical fallacy here. The fact that people kill suggests the existence of a problem that cannot be solved simply by punishing the killer. While punishing killers is certainly necessary, it is also necessary to prevent situations that push people to kill, such as despair and blatant injustice. In the case of the Palestinians, only justice can reduce the need to use violence. And justice is clearly lacking. It requires that the grievances of Palestinians be recognized and addressed. Until this is done, the angel of death will be relishing his daily food.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The crux is both sides have proven not to be wise. Israel would let them live better, if the Palestinians wouldnt use every possible opportunity to bring in guns instead of food.

Are you really meaning that people who are kept behind barbed wire should not fight back? Would you meekly accept the situation in which Palestinians have been placed by Israel (first expelled from your homes and then kept behind barbed wire)?
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:20 pm

I remain convinced that the Palestinians will win in the end.

Simply because it is their cause that is just.

The cost will be dreadful - but that can't be helped.

Probably influenced in that judgment by the fact that (like Baroque) I lived through WW2 as a small child. On all the 'figures,' we in Britain in 1940 had no bloody chance at all..........

It may take 20 years yet - but, in the end, the establishment of the 'State of Israel' will eventually be seen as one of the many 'mistakes' that the world keeps on making..........

It was (and remains) a monstrous injustice. Basically punishing the Arabs for what the Germans did to the Jews.......

The sadness is that, as so often in wars, it will take hundreds of thousands - if not miillions - of lost lives to prove what has always been true.

That, in the words of the greatest American so far, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:31 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
I remain convinced that the Palestinians will win in the end . . . the establishment of the 'State of Israel' will eventually be seen as one of the many 'mistakes' that the world keeps on making

How do you think this will happen? Do you think that Israel will be destroyed by military intervention?
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flitemax
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:38 pm

Quite intruiging to read the opinion of some outsiders on this forum. As a Palestinian, I can tell you that Israel's latest atrocities will have the opposite effect: Bolster Hamas and strengthen them in the eyes of the people and Arab streets worldwide. This is no rocket science, Hamas was waiting for this for many months, in order to fuel its ranks with new recruits and justify its stronghold in the Gaza Strip.

Of course, this is not to say that Hamas, as the legitimate elected government, is absolved of all blame. In the contrary, Hamas' doctrine is based on intolerance and an "islamic" state in all of historic Palestine. I am proud of having Christian compatriots, where would an Islamic state lead them? The long-term truce offer is also designed to ultimately destroy Jewish organized presence in Palestine.

On the other hand, we must not forget WHY Hamas came to power. The extreme corruption of the PA / Fatah was leading the Palestinian people nowhere: No jobs, favoratism, nepotism, torture. Opposition newspapers were routinely shut down and Fatah was accused of being a contractor charged with maintaining never-ending Jewish settlement expansion and occuption.

Whoever claims that Palestinians have not "appreciated" the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and that we've responded with rockets is also disillusioned. Israel never ended its occuption of the Gaza Strip: Sea, air, and land crossings are in the hands of Israel. Gaza was and remains the largest prison in the world. Is this liberation? Was Sharon's withdrawal not a unilateral one, designed to be followed by intensified settlement activities in the West Bank?

What about the fact that Israel trippled its settlements in both population and number since 1991, when the Oslo charades were signed?

Both Hamas and Fatah are victims of their own short-sightedness and obsession with "power" (what power?), regional and international inteference from the powers that be, and of course the Zionist enterprise which continues to deny Palestinians their humanity and dignity.

In light of this the ONLY solution remains peaceful resistance and the reconstitution of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Only the PLO can salvage what remains the of the just Palestinian cause, the recovery of our lands including East Jerusalem, and the repatriation/rehabilitation of Palestinian refugees everywhere. The PLO needs new blood. Old, tired, and compromised figures such as Abbas, Qureia, Ereikat, etc. must be removed and replaced by envisioned Palestinian professionals/politicians who will immediately seek to reinstate Palestinian unity worldwide. The window of opportunity for these people will not be the negotiations path in 5-star hotels in Geneva but grassroot movements on the ground.
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:39 pm



Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Emmett From Germany, Reply 16, p

Thanks Emmett, nice to have another view. Apparently if you assert that Gaza is free long enough, it must become true even if the Gazans have no control over any of their borders.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

There is a logical fallacy here. The fact that people kill suggests the existence of a problem that cannot be solved simply by punishing the killer.

Indeed, and that line of thinking makes one wonder what Jimmy Carter was doing talking to M Begin. Remember you cannot negotiate with terrorists. Funny how fashions change.

But I like the concept of all victims of terrorism being compensated. Yep agree with that.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:46 pm



Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
I can tell you that Israel's latest atrocities will have the opposite effect

Israel has shown to be a quick study in the past. Hamas may win some little battles, but their war w/Israel is still a failure - they haven't, nor likely in the near future at least, will have the ability to destroy Israel - a root cause of their being. Hez may have won some psychological edge, but Israel is still at their doorstep anytime Hez wants to start more trouble.
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
What is the factual base for such an assertion? Neither Lebanon, nor Syria, Egypt or Jordan are encircled by Israeli barbed wire.

Last I checked, Gaza has a border with Egypt which is controlled by Egypt with some stipulations on the supplies that can enter, we did see the holes blown in the border fence earlier this year and there were only Palestinians and Egyptians around, no Israelis, I assumed that to be true and not fiction.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Who is "the world" which allegedly is "tired of this"?

Read the numerous threads and see the amount of frustration expressed the world over, I call that tired, I do not subscribe to the notion that this is what the world wants to see.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed

Suggest you re-read reply 12, you are quoting the wrong person, your quote is reply 13.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The crux is both sides have proven not to be wise. Israel would let them live better, if the Palestinians wouldnt use every possible opportunity to bring in guns instead of food.

Wrong person quoted, you are replying to reply 13.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):
Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

There is a logical fallacy here. The fact that people kill suggests the existence of a problem that cannot be solved simply by punishing the killer.

Wrong user quoted, you are replying to reply 12.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:59 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 18):
How do you think this will happen? Do you think that Israel will be destroyed by military intervention?

Israel practices extreme forms of racial and religious prejudice, Allstarflier.

Such regimes have always caused huge numbers of unnecessary deaths. It's no exaggeration to say that the Israelis (their governments, anyway) are the Nazis of the modern age.

Spent a fair proportion of my life 'preparing to fight regimes' that stood for maintaining political and religious intolerance. Israel is just the latest in a long line. Thankfully, I'm so bloody old nowadays that they'd be raving mad to draft me........

But I'm very confident that 'Israel' will quite soon be seen as yet another 'mistake.'

Thankfully, nowadays, that's what eventually happens to ALL regimes that practice racial and religious prejudice. The only question is how long it takes in each individual case..........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
On the other hand, we must not forget WHY Hamas came to power. The extreme corruption of the PA / Fatah was leading the Palestinian people nowhere: No jobs, favoratism, nepotism, torture. Opposition newspapers were routinely shut down and Fatah was accused of being a contractor charged with maintaining never-ending Jewish settlement expansion and occupation.

Whoever claims that Palestinians have not "appreciated" the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and that we've responded with rockets is also disillusioned. Israel never ended its occupation of the Gaza Strip: Sea, air, and land crossings are in the hands of Israel. Gaza was and remains the largest prison in the world. Is this liberation? Was Sharon's withdrawal not a unilateral one, designed to be followed by intensified settlement activities in the West Bank?

Thanks for an informed view Flitemax.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
Old, tired, and compromised figures such as Abbas, Qureia, Ereikat, etc. must be removed and replaced by envisioned Palestinian professionals/politicians who will immediately seek to reinstate Palestinian unity worldwide.

And one has to wonder if a remarkably high proportion of the most suitable are not located in Israeli jails. Usually the British managed to locate and lock up the most likely to be effective as an independent government. Is there a Palestinian version of JB (jailed by the British) perhaps JI worn with pride by some Palestinians? Many in early Israeli governments had the JB qualification.

The sad thing is that Abbas receives such uncritical comment in the western media. What about H Ashrawi?
 
jfk69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:23 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):

But I'm very confident that 'Israel' will quite soon be seen as yet another 'mistake.'

What other areas or regimes would you consider "Mistakes"?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
The more pain they absorb, and the more they fight on, the more their stock rises among their supporters around the Middle East.

Bingo. And, it should be added, "the more pain they add to the Palestinian people", then continue.

The one constant over the last 60 years of this conflict, is that the Arab world has not changed ONE IOTA, when it comes to dealing with Israel. With two exceptions-Egypt and Jordan, they still can't get past their hatreds, and try to make accomodation. I don't blame Israel for the Arab blood spilled over this time period-I blame the stupidity of the Arab nations, who simply will not change their ways.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Simply because it is their cause that is just.

The "cause" is the annihilation of Israel. That is the professed belief of Hams, which currently leads Lebanon, and who is a large player in the region. That isn't just-that's wanting genocide. If that is just, then the world has no chance. If they would EVER try peaceful means to solve this situation, then it might be seen as "just". But until groups like Hamas, who want the destruction of Israel as their goal, keep power, they're no better than Hitler was.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:28 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
Israel practices extreme forms of racial and religious prejudice

If so, they're not alone there . . .

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
But I'm very confident that 'Israel' will quite soon be seen as yet another 'mistake.'

I'm sure someday we'll see what the differences will be between actual results and your foresight . . .

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
Israel never ended its occuption of the Gaza Strip

Though, neither has the dominant political faction of the Palestinians, Hamas, ended their call for Israel's destruction . . .

Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
Thanks for an informed view Flitemax.

Yes, thank you . . .
Living the American Dream
 
Emmett
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:41 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 22):
Last I checked, Gaza has a border with Egypt which is controlled by Egypt with some stipulations on the supplies that can enter,

Do you suggest that the BBC is wrong when saying that Israel imposed a "blockade" on Gaza and closed all borders? See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7773658.stm

If the so-called border to Egypt is open and the people of Gaza can cross at will, what is all the hullaballoo about? Or is it so, that Egypt also helps Israel in maintaining Gazans starved? In that case, the US should not only stop supporting Israel but also stop supporting Egypt. That would be the logical conclusion.

In order not to be labeled an Israel-basher, I urge forum-members to consult three webpages about courageous Israeli Jews, who do not relish the mass murder by their army:

1. Article by Israeli saxophonist Gilad Atzmon: Eine Kleine Nacht Murder: How Israeli Leaders Kill for their People's Votes. Posted on http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=6717&lg=en

2. Video by young and courageous Israeli college students who refuse to participate in the murder of Palestinians: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/509.html

3. Amira Hass (Ha'aretz): The sewage is about to hit the fan in Gaza. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1049817.html

[Edited 2008-12-31 07:44:04]
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:53 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
The "cause" is the annihilation of Israel.



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 28):
I'm sure someday we'll see what the differences will be between actual results and your foresight . . .

Israel stands for total 'supremacy' for a single religious faith. Even to the point that a Palestinian who marries an Israeli is denied a resident visa............

Tell me about any other country in the whole world that does that?

It's straight racism of the 'purest' kind.

Israel is far more 'racist' than most of the awful places we all moan about. IMO, the place stinks...........

And, as the truly great Abe Lincoln said, "A house divided aganst itself cannot stand."

It'll take a while. And a lot of deaths. But Israel CAN'T win in the end.

To put it simply - their cause is not just............
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting Emmett (Reply 28):
Do you suggest that the BBC is wrong when saying that Israel imposed a "blockade" on Gaza and closed all borders?

BBC also posted the conflict at the Rafah crossing where an Egyptian border officer was killed
when residents were attempting to flee into Egypt and Hamas prevented this, way I won't get into a debate on who is right or wrong. This can go on, we can certainely quote additional sites, not sure it helps this issue or the debate, but I take your list.

Thanks
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:22 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
To put it simply - their cause is not just............

Neither is advocating genocide, which, in effect, is what you're calling a "just" cause. is that what you're advocationg? The destruction of Israel, and, by extension, of it's citizens?
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NIKV69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:28 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 9):
End the blockade, give these people a reason to live for instead of a reason to blow eachother up

That is not the reason though, Hamas as sell as Iran and Al Qaida etc want Isreal gone. Period. It has nothing to do with how Palestine is living or any of that other stuff. They want them destroyed they want them gone. It will never stop. Talking won't solve anything, ending blockades won't help anything. Until Islam agrees to allow Isreal to exist (which will never happen) this will be the only way. It is why Isreal is getting ready to send in the ground troops and have said this is a fight to the end. Diplomacy, talking and even the savior Barack Obama can't help here. Isreal understands this and that is why they have made the decision to fight for their right to exist and not get constantly attacked and I am glad they have.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The world is tired of this, and based on the demonstrations all over pro and con, people are concerned, just not enough to offer up more concrete and viable solutions, and yes by that I mean that telling Israel right now to withdraw to the 1948 or 1967 borders is not viable in the current environment, it may be the ultimate goal but there are numerous steps to be taken before we get there, pushing for that immediately is not constructive and if suggested is only being done to essentially continue the status quo.

I agree Isreal should be in talks about withdrawing to the original borders but this can't start to happen until radical Islam stops it's terrorist acts and I don't see that happening.

Quoting NA (Reply 14):
Latest news: Analysts expect the fights to end in the next days. Ground fighting is now unlikely. (Source: Der Spiegel)
Good if true.

It is but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Israel is far more 'racist' than most of the awful places we all moan about. IMO, the place stinks...........

Even if this is true Isreal doesn't deny other faiths to exist and tries to kill them.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
na
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
I remain convinced that the Palestinians will win in the end.

Simply because it is their cause that is just.

The Palestinians must live in a better condition in future, agreed. A complete "victory" in the sense of Hamas is a horrible thought of almost Hitlerite dimensions though, much worse than a "complete" victory of Israel. The settlement policy of Israel in the occupied areas is unjust, thats the main critisism I have on Israel. But why give it back to people largely supporting terrorism, some, not even few, proclaiming the annihilation of their enemy? Big mouth Arabian style or not, that sounds like Hitler.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
The cost will be dreadful - but that can't be helped.

Probably influenced in that judgment by the fact that (like Baroque) I lived through WW2 as a small child. On all the 'figures,' we in Britain in 1940 had no bloody chance at all..........

It may take 20 years yet - but, in the end, the establishment of the 'State of Israel' will eventually be seen as one of the many 'mistakes' that the world keeps on making..........

Part of the country was bare and unused, the rest underdeveloped. More than any other it were the Israelis who made the land as fruitful as it is now, achieved more in 60 years than the Palestinians in almost 2000 years. If Israel should retreat somewhere, in all fairness, they should convert it into the "garden Eden" it was before.
The state of Israel a mistake? No. Jews have a right to live in Israel, they were there before the Palestinians, even if that is long ago. The sad fact of so many Palestinian refugees is an aftermath of the Arabian attack which ended in their defeat. The fate of people worldwide which start a war and loose it.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
It was (and remains) a monstrous injustice. Basically punishing the Arabs for what the Germans did to the Jews.......

Not completely untrue, but also not completely true. First there was space for both back then. It could not be expected that after the Holocaust the surviving Jews would remain in Central or Eastern Europe. What better, humane solution to let them go to where they originally came from,where there was space, where many wanted to go anyway and where many were again already living for some time? And lets not forget Palestinian leaders (only the leaders?) supported Nazi policy, even visiting Hitler, hoping for his "solution". And also not to forget that is was quite convenient for Stalin and his Eastern European slave states (Poles even killed Jews after WWII) to offload their Jews which had survived.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
Israel practices extreme forms of racial and religious prejudice, Allstarflier.

The more extreme practices rule in its neighbourhood as much as I could observe.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:34 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
Even if this is true Isreal doesn't deny other faiths to exist and tries to kill them.

That would be al Qaeda, Hamas, etc. Those that NAV supports, apparently-those with a "just" cause.  Yeah sure

Their goal, freely stated, NAV is the destruction of Israel, and, by cosent, the Jewish people living there. Now, you may call that a just cause, but in the history books, it was called "The Final Solution." Is THAT what you really want to stand by? Honestly? Doing that will not end up getting the Palestinians a free state-it will cause their own annihilation as well, and that of millions of Arabs along the way. It isn't "just", it's the Holocaust on a much more horrific scale.

Think about that.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Thorben
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:35 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 14):
Latest news: Analysts expect the fights to end in the next days. Ground fighting is now unlikely. (Source: Der Spiegel)
Good if true.
But is that the promised Israeli fighting to the end?

The whole thing is another failure for Olmert. What did he gain? Nothing. Killed 400 people, even if there were Hamas members among them, the organization will still be there and will still be able to fire rockets. The bombing of Gaza will only increase the hatred towards Israel, the US, and the West.

No ground offensive? I doubt that. Did they mobilize their forces in order NOT to use them? That will make them look like weaklings. However, if Israel entered the Gaza strip, they would probably be knocked back out like in Lebanon in 2006, so that is no option either.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
jfk69
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Israel is far more 'racist' than most of the awful places we all moan about. IMO, the place stinks...........

One is free to practice religion openly in Israel....Any religion. There are a few countries in the world where this is not true, so with that said your statement has lost a lot of steam.

When Israel took Jeerusalem in 1967, they found the Kotel (Western Wall ) to be covered in feces and littered with everything imaginable. Judaisms holiest site was desecrated beyond belief. Moshe Dayan had the oppurtunity to blow up the Dome of the rock and though urged by other generals, he had restraint and said No.......


Have you been to Israel by the way, (Just curious)
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:48 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 35):
However, if Israel entered the Gaza strip, they would probably be knocked back out like in Lebanon in 2006, so that is no option either.

I think you underestimate Israel's resolve in this matter. It may be what you desire, but I think, if it happens, it won't even be a contest.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AGM100
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 35):
The bombing of Gaza will only increase the hatred towards Israel, the US, and the West.

No it wont , that threat is empty and useless... they hate Israel end of story. Again I say , when I see one protest of the random morter fire across Israels border then I may change my view.

This is a war , and trying to be nice to your sworn enemy is suicidal. Take out all of the who is right and who is wrong ... forget about it. Hammas is the enemy of Israel .. and they should be destroyed. Clear and simple , Destroy you enemy or die trying.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:14 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 35):
That will make them look like weaklings. However, if Israel entered the Gaza strip, they would probably be knocked back out like in Lebanon in 2006, so that is no option either.

Well look at Lebanon border today after the recent conflict with Hezbollah, unfortunately, so many had to die and so much destruction before the world decided to put a true UN force between both parties to preserve the peace. Two wrongs do no make a right, but as it relates to Lebanon/Hezbollah/Israel, the destruction and death will not be in vain if the peace continues and steps are taken to resolve the conflict finally in a similar way to Jordan and Egypt.
One of the things Palestinians feared / or fear is that if individual countries make peace with Israel that their issue will be forgotton, to my knowledge, everyone has accepted that a Palestinian State must be created, including Israel and the US, whether everyone has accepted that a Israel nation should exist is up in arms in some quarters, so we continue on.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:17 pm

This much is certain: Israel deserves to keep their nation. And the Palestinians deserve a nation. Anything that does not start with that in the basis of any negotiation, is pointless. You cannot unmake what is already done-Israel, simply to make something that has never existed-a Palestinian state.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
wn700driver
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:42 pm



Quote:
Israel stands for total 'supremacy' for a single religious faith. Even to the point that a Palestinian who marries an Israeli is denied a resident visa...........

Without getting too involved in all this, that assertion is way off base, factually speaking. Israel is not only the most secular country in the ME it is the only one. Someone asked you, NAV20, if you've ever been to Israel. My question is have you ever been to any country in the Middle East?
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:52 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 13):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is

correct, but low morale is another fuel for terrorists recruitment

Quoting NA (Reply 13):
The crux is both sides have proven not to be wise. Israel would let them live better, if the Palestinians wouldnt use every possible opportunity to bring in guns instead of food. The Palestinian terrorists are the worst players in the game,

We all agree there, that terrorists are the worst players, but not the Palestinian people. They are victims in all this, just as Israeli civilians are too. The point is to stop their recruitment by making the average citizen have something to look forward too and forget their hatred.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
Quite intruiging to read the opinion of some outsiders on this forum. As a Palestinian, I can tell you that Israel's latest atrocities will have the opposite effect: Bolster Hamas and strengthen them in the eyes of the people and Arab streets worldwide.

exactly my thoughts and I've been syaing that in all previous threads. Thank you sir

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 21):

Israel has shown to be a quick study in the past. Hamas may win some little battles, but their war w/Israel is still a failure - they haven't, nor likely in the near future at least, will have the ability to destroy Israel

Nor will Israel have the power to destory Hamas, at least not with this tactic.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 22):
Last I checked, Gaza has a border with Egypt which is controlled by Egypt

check again

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
The one constant over the last 60 years of this conflict, is that the Arab world has not changed ONE IOTA, when it comes to dealing with Israel.

As opposed to Israel embracing the Arab world as their new best friends?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):

That is not the reason though, Hamas as sell as Iran and Al Qaida etc want Isreal gone. Period.

That's why you have to erradicate Hamas the only way possible, and bombing like they are doing will cause the contrary

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
t has nothing to do with how Palestine is living or any of that other stuff.

Of course it does. Hopless people will do anything. Hopefull people will do whatever it takes to fulfill their hopes. What hope does an avergae Palestinian have with the blockade?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
This much is certain: Israel deserves to keep their nation. And the Palestinians deserve a nation. Anything that does not start with that in the basis of any negotiation, is pointless.

now that's something I expect most of us to agree to. But by creating more hatred, no side will end up believing that the other deserves to exist
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
flitemax
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:05 pm

Israel in its present form cannot exist from a legal / ethical point of view. This principal is not only enshrined by extermists (Hamas, Jihad, etc.) but also Palestinian intellects and people with the basics of the conflict in mind.

Legally speaking, I can't recognize a state with no internationally-recognized borders. An expansionist Israel is a threat to all its neighbors and the region as a whole. Moreoever, a large percentage of its population resides on lands which are illegally occupied. Repeated calls made to its at the UN to vacate such lands paving way for a viable Palestinian nation have fallen on deaf ears. It seams, Zionists are not satisfied with 78% of historical Palestine but want all of it at the expense of the indigenous Palestinian population who is now being asked to be "transferred to Jordan and other countries". Amazing, some Israelis still hold Hertzl's view that Palestinians are mere cattle, to be robbed and pushed around in daylight.

Ethically, the 750,000 Palestinians who in 1948 either (1) fled; (2) were terrorized away by the Irgun or (3) left on their own accord temporarily believing the Arab armies would crush the Zionist nationalist thugs, cannot be denied their international right to return to their homes. Could any Israeli on this forum, with a sense of morality, explain to me why in Israeli logic Palestinians worlwide including myself cannot return to my ancestral lands whereas an imposter Jew from Ukrain who's ancestors never set foot on the holy land can go back and even claim immediate citizenship?

Another issue is apartheid. I cannot recognize injustice and apartheid: although some Arabs are MK's in Israel, Arab communities remain essentially marginalized in everything ranging from political rights to ridiculously low (or no) allocations to improve their community infrastructure.

Given the above, we have never and will never recognize Israel. And very proud. Until such a time where Israel (and its US backers) renounces state terror, checks into rehab for land grab addiction, and extends Arabs their full rights on their own land, peace remains elusive in our lifetime.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:18 pm



Quote:
whereas an imposter Jew from Ukrain who's ancestors never set foot on the holy land can go back and even claim immediate citizenship?

A Jew is a Jew, convert or otherwise. Ethiopian Jews are welcome as well, not just white eastern europeans or americans. Same goes for your side, as I'm sure one former Cat Stevens can tell you. There is no morality issue there.

Just out of curiosity, as a born Jew (who really thinks gods are the way of the past, but that's another story...), could I convert to Islam and get citizenship in Saudi or Emirates if I decide I want a piece of their new pie? I'm sensing more jealousy than moral outrage here...  Yeah sure
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
AGM100
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:19 pm



Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
Given the above, we have never and will never recognize Israel. And very proud. Until such a time where Israel (and its US backers) renounces state terror, checks into rehab for land grab addiction, and extends Arabs their full rights on their own land, peace remains elusive in our lifetime.

Personaly I like your clarity , It is healthy for enemies to be clear with each other. You and I are enemies . I understand that now adays most do not want to clearly define themselves like this ..but I do not mind. This divide can not be mended by negotiation I am afraid ..sadly it will require destruction of one side or the other.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Emmett
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:22 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
Until Islam agrees to allow Isreal to exist (which will never happen) this will be the only way.

Most persecutions of Jews occurred historically in Christian lands. Jews found always refuge in Islamic societies. Islam considers Judaism as a holy religion and respects Jews. Israeli Jews who come not with guns but with good-will are even today welcome in the homes of Hamas activists. Muslims are opposed to Zionism, which is a nationalistic ideology of Jewish supremacy, embodied in a Jewish State (namely a State where all institutions have to be controlled by certified Jews). Think of the United States being a "catholic state" where only Catholics would be trusted. That's in a nutshell Israel.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
I agree Isreal should be in talks about withdrawing to the original borders but this can't start to happen until radical Islam stops it's terrorist acts and I don't see that happening.

Again, the terrorist acts ascribed to Hamas are not originated in Islam (the secular PLO also engaged from time to time in terrorist acts, and so did Jews fighting England). These acts represent the accumulated frustration of decades of struggle for liberation against the occupation regime.

Quoting NA (Reply 33):
A complete "victory" in the sense of Hamas is a horrible thought of almost Hitlerite dimensions though, much worse than a "complete" victory of Israel.

A comparison between Hamas and Hitler is a joke. Hitler based his power on the highly developed industry of Germany, a country of around 60 million people. Hamas has no industrial or military base. Even its fiery calls are just pathetic reminders of the weakness of Hamas. Israel does not need to compensate its weakness by rhetoric. Its rhetoric is embodied in the 1000 lbs. bombs it throws on buildings and in its formidable military power.

Quoting NA (Reply 33):
Part of the country was bare and unused, the rest underdeveloped.

According to Zionist leaders who visited Palestine in early 20th century, there was hardly any piece of good land they could buy, because all good land was tilled and used by the Palestinians. Anyone who visited Palestine may have noticed how Palestinian farmers have arranged even to plant vegetables on terraces they arranged on hills. Such endeavour requires enormous labor and testifies to the diligence of Palestinian farmers. Israeli Jews came with technology and introduced wasteful agriculture based on huge use of scarce water. Now Israelis are finally beginning to learn from the experience collected in thousands of years by the native Palestinians.

Quoting NA (Reply 33):
Jews have a right to live in Israel, they were there before the Palestinians, even if that is long ago

There is no evidence that today's Jews are descendants from the Ancient Hebrews. This is merely a hypothesis that is even disputed by Israeli scholars. And even if some Jews could prove descendance, it would not provide those Jews with a legal right under international law, to consider themselves the rightful owners of Palestine. Jews emigrated to Palestine in the first half of the 20th century because imperial Britain allowed them to do so, against the will of the local population.

Quoting NA (Reply 33):
Not completely untrue, but also not completely true. First there was space for both back then. It could not be expected that after the Holocaust the surviving Jews would remain in Central or Eastern Europe. What better, humane solution to let them go to where they originally came from,where there was space, where many wanted to go anyway and where many were again already living for some time?

Do people know that most Jewish survivors of the Holocaust did not want to go to Palestine but to the United States instead? They were literally forced to go to Palestine. Was this humane?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
Their goal, freely stated, NAV is the destruction of Israel, and, by cosent, the Jewish people living there. Now, you may call that a just cause, but in the history books, it was called "The Final Solution."

Who has ever stated the wish to destroy the people living in Israel? There are many people opposed to the existence of a Jewish state, including many Jews, because of its discriminatory character and want it to become a real democracy. This does not mean that these people want to kill Jews. Please make this important distinction.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
Israel deserves to keep their nation. And the Palestinians deserve a nation.

I guess you mean that Israelis deserve to have a STATE and so are the Palestinians. This is what many people believe to be a just solution. But this solution is neither just nor practical. It is unjust because it would require the Palestinian refugees to be deprived of their inalienable rights to return to their villages and towns, as enshrined in numerous UN resolutions and in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It is unjust because it would require Palestinians who are citizens of Israel to continue and live as second-class citizens in a Jewish State. It is impractical because it would force Palestinians to live in discontiguous areas (West Bank, Gaza) divided by Israeli territory, and thus at the permanent mercy of Israeli good-will. It is impractical because the economy of Israel-Palestine is so intertwined: An independent Palestinian state would be only nominally independent but economically an Israeli dependency. The only just and lasting solution is to work towards the constitution of One State over the entire area of Israel/Palestine with a democratic constitution and equality of rights. Jews and Muslims have lived side by side for centuries in good harmony. There is no reason why this cannot continue, if there is a will to settle the dispute with dignity and rights for all. This is the solution that many Jews and Palestinians are working towards and have done so for a long time. But this solution will end the dependency of Israel on the United States. So the U.S. does not want Israel to come to terms with Palestinians and integrate in the region. If left alone, Israelis will have to come terms with their neighbors and I assure you they can.

[Edited 2008-12-31 10:43:14]
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:32 pm



Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
Israel in its present form cannot exist from a legal / ethical point of view

By what legal standard? They were created with the blessing of the superpowers of the time, plus the recognition of a particular international body, the U(tter) N(onsense).

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
Legally speaking, I can't recognize a state with no internationally-recognized borders.

Egypt does, Turkey does, Jordan does - ethnic arabic cultures that have historical ties to the land . . . they've set a good example by recognizing Israel.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
An expansionist Israel is a threat to all its neighbors and the region as a whole.

That's if they were truly expansionist. If they were, then the number of Palestinians dead would not be hovering around 400, but between 4,000 to 40,000, or more.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
Given the above, we have never and will never recognize Israel.

Then you have a never-ending problem.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
And very proud.

And I'm sure that after several centuries, the Israelis are still proud to have back their historical homeland - as they should be.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
Until such a time where Israel (and its US backers) renounces state terror

Opinion. Palestinians (and their supporters) seem to be jealous that Israel and Jews have been so often the victims - so much so that Palestinians (and their supporters) are so anxious to play the victim card whenever they feel they can.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
checks into rehab for land grab addiction

Israel's given back plenty, from the Sinai and on - no other state or group should have to provoke them into taking control of an area to dilute them of their terrorists. Moving on . . .

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 44):
peace remains elusive in our lifetime.

Then, perhaps it may be a life-long conundrum for the Palestinians.
Living the American Dream
 
Acheron
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:33 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
This much is certain: Israel deserves to keep their nation. And the Palestinians deserve a nation. Anything that does not start with that in the basis of any negotiation, is pointless.

Well, I guess we finally agree on something.  checkmark 

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