mham001
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So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:29 am

I'm a little intrigued about the trend to charge as crimes deeds done abroad that may be legal there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7806760.stm

A new law has come into force in Norway making the purchase of sex illegal.

Norwegian citizens caught paying for prostitutes at home or abroad could face a hefty fine or a six-month prison sentence, authorities say.

The tough new measures go further than similar ones introduced by other Scandinavian countries such as Sweden and Finland.

Norwegian police have been authorised to use wire-tapping devices to gather evidence.
 
Doona
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:18 am

Yes, we're all quite the prudes over here. On the other hand, the state television here can show clips from Deep Throat in a documentary (and yes, the actual DT shot) and not get sued or fined.

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ltbewr
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:46 am

The issue isn't so much about being 'prudes', but recognizing the many serious issues as to prositution, especialy for those selling thier bodies. Such policies discourage the 'sex trades' with far too many women exploited in inhumane ways.
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:54 am

I don't think it's reasonable to equate strict laws on prostitution with an unrelaxed attitude to sex. Basically, sexual relations and prostitution are entirely different matters. In my view, it is completely right to do away with prostitution, as although there may be some exceptions, generally it is exploitative, immoral and often linked intrinsically with other aspects of criminality.
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Qantasistheway
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:04 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
The issue isn't so much about being 'prudes', but recognizing the many serious issues as to prositution, especialy for those selling thier bodies. Such policies discourage the 'sex trades' with far too many women exploited in inhumane ways.

Well, yes these people are selling their bodies but putting a ban on this will most likely not stop a lot of the activity. However, if prostitution is allowed and can then be controlled, this then means that borthels are the only apporved workplace for prostitutes which then stops the pimps exploiting prostitutes etc. People are gonna seel themselves, if they are allowed to or not won't stop this. However if these prostitutes are then doing it in a reasonably "safe" environment, it can spare the pain that they would otherwise go through. Germany works along these lines, and I think it's fairly reasonable.
 
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par13del
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:38 pm

So the intelligent brains behind making prostitution legal in these Europen countries in the first place never had a clue or could not forsee the further exploitation that would be the result, or did they just assume that their countries had enough females who wanted to make money selling their bodies for sex?

It would make interesting reading to review the discussions that took place years ago to see what those opposed had to say and what logic those in favour offered to support the plan, history is our best teacher, unfortunately, those who do not study it are doomed to repeat its failures. Here's an idea, legal prostitutes could only be citizens born in the country, tighten up the passport laws may be cheaper than trying to watch who comes across your open borders, which were opened up to allow free trade between EU members, guess human trading was not expected.
 
AverageUser
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:18 pm

The BBC's news is in error regarding Finland. According to the recent changes in the law, prostitution is only illegal here in the case of human trafficking. Pimping is and has been illegal as well as advertising for paid sex. Free-lancing remains legal, a win of common sense over the feminist hardliners.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:37 pm

Unfortunetly Oslo, the capitok of Norway has in the last few years had a serious problem with prostitutes coming from Nigeria and estern Europe. The numbers have just been staggering, simply because Norway had had a relaxed law compared to the rest of Europe. The prostitutes has come in huge wawes to Norway and especially Oslo where they earn better money that many other places.

Since there is'nt an official " red light district " in Oslo the prostitutes has been offering their business on the main shopping street to the annoyens of localresidents and tourists alike.

Some of the Nigerian prostitutes has been offering their services all the way down to 6 USD.


So Norwegian politicians has been under alot of pressure to do soemthing about the problem and has come up with this new law that is just one part of a much bigger renewal of the law, regarding sex trafficking, prostitution, child porn etc.


Many Norwegians are sceptical to the solution that the politicians has come up with.
 
GDB
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitu

Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:44 pm

I see no correlation in laws about prostitution and how 'prudish' or not a society generally is.
For example, prostitution thrived at levels quite unthinkable now, in the Britain of the Victorian era (often seen as the high watermark of repressive attitudes in our history).
Only beaten by WW2 - the blackout, lots of abandoned sites, women left to fend for themselves and a lot of men who think they might be dead soon.
Britain was not a very liberal society then either.

Prostitution is as much about people's economic conditions than sexual attitudes and like the poor, it's always been with us.

Mortyman pointed out that many seem to come from places like Africa and the poorer parts of Eastern Europe, not unlike here.
Most 'natives' on the game are not doing it through choice either.
(As we saw two years ago with the stories behind the 6 prostitutes murdered in England by one man, all lived short, chaotic, unhappy lives. Hard drugs, broken homes and probably abuse all loomed large for this tragic girls).

A much better way of perhaps reading how relaxed a society is about sex, is in the levels of STD's, unwanted pregnancies, the depth and availability of both family planning and general sexual health advice.

Here, the Anglo Saxons should bow their heads in shame.
Because both the UK and the USA are very poor in these areas, in the US it's made worse by fanatics imposing thier ideas, with little regard to real life.
Both nations seem still to have real problems in proper education and attitudes that can often combine prurience and prudishness.

The Scandinavians do a lot better on the health, education and unwanted pregnancies.
This has an economic factor too, with a much lower proportion of those in the biggest risk groups, in other words, the bottom of the heap.

I would rate the UK as now more relaxed about sex than the US, but not like many of our Europeans neighbors.
But that's nothing to shout about, since the fruits of a more grown up attitude, as seen in places like Scandinavia, are not properly realized here.
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:04 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Prostitution is as much about people's economic conditions than sexual attitudes and like the poor, it's always been with us.

It has indeed always been with us, often referred to the world's oldest profession. However, the nature of prostitution has changed in modern times, with the nasty rise of large-scale human trafficking for prostitution. Controlling of prostitutes has also been around since almost forever, but the tricking and forcing of vulnerable adults into being trafficked to other countries for sexual exploitation has increased so much, that I consider it to be necessary to legislate strongly against all prostitution. It is just too awful and, unfortunately, too real.
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andaman
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:29 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
The issue isn't so much about being 'prudes', but recognizing the many serious issues as to prositution

Exactly.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 6):
Free-lancing remains legal, a win of common sense over the feminist hardliners.

It's more complicated than 'feminist hardliners against free-lancing', also in Finland... most of the prostitutes are from poorer countries, in Finland from Russia, the business is organized in most cases, linked to organized crime like everywhere else.
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jfk69
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:03 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
generally it is exploitative, immoral and often linked intrinsically with other aspects of criminality.

Not if its regulated, then it is extremely safe and a great money maker for the state when it is taxed.
 
PPVRA
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:10 pm



Quoting Doona (Reply 1):
Yes, we're all quite the prudes over here. On the other hand, the state television here can show clips from Deep Throat in a documentary (and yes, the actual DT shot) and not get sued or fined.

What about non-state televisions?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
AverageUser
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:15 pm



Quoting Andaman (Reply 10):
linked to organized crime like everywhere else.

If you say it's "complicated" I'm sure you are familiar with more aspects than the "international crime" aspect, then? Will the doctoral thesis of Anna Kontula ring any bells?
HS on her: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Ann...ehalf+of+sex+workers/1135239299483

Her thesis: http://acta.uta.fi/pdf/978-951-44-7579-5.pdf (in Finnish)
http://www.annakontula.net/english-exodus.html (English summary)
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:16 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 11):
Not if its regulated, then it is extremely safe and a great money maker for the state when it is taxed.

Maybe, but I don't think it's worth risking even one person being forced into sexual slavery by not legislating hard against all forms of prostitution and making it anything less than 100% unacceptable. People should not think it is ok to buy women, in any circumstances. Regulated or safe or whatever, I still think prostitution in all forms is immoral anyway.
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mham001
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:47 pm

I am surprised nobody has commented on a governments desire to control its citizens outside of its borders.
If a Norwegian man goes to a brothel in Germany, is this grounds to use wiretaps to charge and convict him to a 6 month jail sentence?

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 6):
The BBC's news is in error regarding Finland. According to the recent changes in the law, prostitution is only illegal here in the case of human trafficking. Pimping is and has been illegal as well as advertising for paid sex. Free-lancing remains legal, a win of common sense over the feminist hardliners.

This confuses me since they are going specifically after the johns with this action. How exactly would the customer determine if the woman is trafficked or free-lance? And how would that criteria be determined while the man is overseas?
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:57 pm



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
How exactly would the customer determine if the woman is trafficked or free-lance?

If that is really such an impossible thing to determine then I would suggest it speaks volumes about whether or not one should be embarking upon such behaviour in the first place.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
I am surprised nobody has commented on a governments desire to control its citizens outside of its borders.
If a Norwegian man goes to a brothel in Germany, is this grounds to use wiretaps to charge and convict him to a 6 month jail sentence?

It is a difficult area and poses many moral questions. One part of me says this principle is grossly unfair. On the other hand, just because it is easier to get away with a despicable act in one particular country, that should not mean that someone should be able to get away with it. I am not sure where wiretaps come into the equation though, is there some specific reference to this I am not aware of, or was this just added for effect?
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PPVRA
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:42 pm

And how do you justify imposing your differing opinions on others through forceful (read: legislative) means?

[Edited 2009-01-01 14:43:05]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:49 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
And how do you justify imposing your differing opinions on others through forceful means?

That's a very wide philosophical and ethical question. Could you perhaps narrow it down a bit and give us a clue as to what exactly you are asking about and in what context? In the broadest interpretation of that question, I would say that this is the nature of the beast when it comes to law making - moral and behavioural standards are imposed on us all by law in an effort to try and prevent harm to others as far as possible, or at least that is the theory.
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Mortyman
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:49 pm



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
I am surprised nobody has commented on a governments desire to control its citizens outside of its borders.
If a Norwegian man goes to a brothel in Germany, is this grounds to use wiretaps to charge and convict him to a 6 month jail sentence?

Most Norwegians think the Norwegian police will have a hard time charging the person buying sex in another country. The Norwegian police basically has to ask the foreign country police to arrest the person, wich is questionable considering that other countries often more relaxed laws about prostitution and may not want to bother doing it.
 
andaman
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:03 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 11):
Not if its regulated, then it is extremely safe and a great money maker for the state when it is taxed.[/quot

Where this ideal world exists, in Nevada? ,)

[quote=AverageUser,reply=14]Will the doctoral thesis of Anna Kontula ring any bells?

Yes I know her thesis, as I said this issue is complicated, with many aspects.

Ok let say prostitution can be a job like any other.
If we had these 'extremely safe' circumstances for regulated prostitution, would it be ok to you if your own sister or daughter would get the job? We don't like double standards, do we?
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PPVRA
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:47 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):

That's a very wide philosophical and ethical question. Could you perhaps narrow it down a bit and give us a clue as to what exactly you are asking about and in what context? In the broadest interpretation of that question, I would say that this is the nature of the beast when it comes to law making - moral and behavioural standards are imposed on us all by law in an effort to try and prevent harm to others as far as possible, or at least that is the theory.

The non-aggression principle is what I am getting at. It basically holds that the initiation of physical force against another person or his/her property is illegitimate, and it also includes fraud, and vandalism. Force used in self-defense in response to aggression is the only legitimate use of force. In other words, the ends do not justify the means. Prohibition of prostitution would require the use of force to enforce this law.

The NAP is best exemplified IMO by the following quote by John Stuart Mill:

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

Thus, a person who accepts money for sex is perfectly within their rights as long as s/he does not harm another person. The same applies to the customer. As long as it remains a voluntary action between two people, then there is nothing wrong with it. Assuming there was no coercion of any kind involved, of course.

[Edited 2009-01-01 15:49:26]
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RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:57 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):
a person who accepts money for sex is perfectly within their rights as long as s/he does not harm another person. The same applies to the customer. As long as it remains a voluntary action between two people, then there is nothing wrong with it. Assuming there was no coercion of any kind involved, of course.

Understood. However, I think it is fair to say that prostitution as a whole is so tainted with coercion, crime, drugs etc, that it is reasonable to outlaw it. The justification for this is in protecting the victims of trafficking, sexual violence, etc.
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jfk69
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:47 am



Quoting Andaman (Reply 20):
If we had these 'extremely safe' circumstances for regulated prostitution, would it be ok to you if your own sister or daughter would get the job? We don't like double standards, do we?

Of course no one would be happy if their daughter or sister ended up like that, but we wouldn't be happy if they were in porno or stripping for that matter, and these are 2 LEGAL occupations. If that is what my relative wanted to do though then I ma talk them out of it and accept it if thats what they choose. I may do the same if my child would tell me they are homosexual. I may not agree with it but I would accept it.
 
andaman
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:10 am



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 23):
these are 2 LEGAL occupations

Also prostitution itself is legal as well, in Finland and many other places, thats not the point.
I just don't like the double standars if thinking goes: 'prostitution can be ok job - but NOT for my daughter and for the other good girls...'
Ok job for who? Foreigners?

I don't get what homosexuality has to do with this issue, it's not a choice.
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jfk69
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:40 am



Quoting Andaman (Reply 24):
I don't get what homosexuality has to do with this issue, it's not a choice.

I am not going to get into that since I disagree.

Quoting Andaman (Reply 24):
Also prostitution itself is legal as well, in Finland and many other places, thats not the point.
I just don't like the double standars if thinking goes: 'prostitution can be ok job - but NOT for my daughter and for the other good girls...'
Ok job for who? Foreigners?

Some people may have double standards but I don't see it that way and those who do are hypocrites, I will give you that. But it is an OK job as long as people are willing to do it, just like any other profession in this world. If something is legal, and people are willing to do it...then let it be. Obviously if people are still doing it, there is a reason for it...maybe its the money, maybe its the only thing they can do....but they are doing it.

Stop with the moral high ground BS.
 
andaman
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:10 am



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 25):
Stop with the moral high ground BS.

No no... I'm pleased it's legal in my country, thats the way it should be in the free world.
But unfortunately it's not a easy free-lancer career for all the workers, many would like to forget the nasty side of it, thats the BS part.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 25):
I don't get what homosexuality has to do with this issue, it's not a choice.

I am not going to get into that since I disagree.

Well thats what the Finnish education system teaches us, the healing theory not that popular here  Wink But yes, thats so off topic.
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mham001
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:29 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 16):
If that is really such an impossible thing to determine then I would suggest it speaks volumes about whether or not one should be embarking upon such behaviour in the first place.

Yes it is an impossible thing for a john to know. What exactly should he do, drive up and ask if she is trafficked? How would the police determine, get the prostitute to admit she had been trafficked? Is there a legal definition of "free lance"? Really, if the article is incorrect and free-lance is legal, it is a huge ambiguity.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 16):
I am not sure where wiretaps come into the equation though, is there some specific reference to this I am not aware of, or was this just added for effect?

Read the article, or even the original post.

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
Norwegian police have been authorised to use wire-tapping devices to gather evidence.

 
jfk69
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:58 am



Quoting Andaman (Reply 26):
No no... I'm pleased it's legal in my country, thats the way it should be in the free world.

My bad...we are cool.
 
AverageUser
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:20 am



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
How exactly would the customer determine if the woman is trafficked or free-lance?

That's a good question, and in fact the first sentences have been given. According to the ruling the two men who bought sex from a young Estonian woman should have realized that the woman was in the business reluctantly. Two men were released when the court agreed that their judgement of the woman's status was a correct one when they broke up the affair. Up to 40 men may face trial later, says the prosecutor.

So it will be the common sense judgement of the potential customers.
I don't think this law is ever going to be applied to Finns travelling abroad.

http://www.kaleva.fi/plus/index.cfm?j=766886

Quoting Andaman (Reply 20):
would it be ok to you if your own sister or daughter would get the job? We don't like double standards, do we?

What double standards? I'm not my sister's guardian, and when my daughter grows up, she's free to take up any employment she wishes, as is common in Finland and most Western cultures in fact. The point is to regulate sensibly. I do not want a "Prohibition" that will only benefit organized crime and stimulate corruption.
 
andaman
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:49 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 29):
when my daughter grows up, she's free to take up any employment she wishes

All right, if dad honestly says he would be ok if his daughter chooses prostitution for a career,
then absolutely no double standards there! And mom agrees too I assume? ,)
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RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:02 am



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 27):
Yes it is an impossible thing for a john to know. What exactly should he do, drive up and ask if she is trafficked? How would the police determine, get the prostitute to admit she had been trafficked? Is there a legal definition of "free lance"?

Right, which is the point I was getting at earlier - given that it is nigh impossible to know, if you choose then to use prostitutes you are effectively saying that you accept she may be the victim of trafficking. Which, as I already said, is a very good reason for not using prostitutes in the first place. If there was even a 1% chance that you thought a woman might have been coerced into prostitution (and by your own logic there is because one 'can't tell'), and that you, if you then 'used' her were therefore nothing but a rapist if she was indeed such an unfortunate individual, then frankly it would be absolutely despicable behaviour and no different in my mind from any other repulsive sexual crime. How do you justify that? "Well, I didn't know 100% that she wasn't forced into the trade so I thought it was ok"? Not a reasonable defence. If the law places the onus on you to know, and you feel you can't easily determine the facts of the situation, then don't do it.
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jfk69
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:34 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
Right, which is the point I was getting at earlier - given that it is nigh impossible to know, if you choose then to use prostitutes you are effectively saying that you accept she may be the victim of trafficking. Which, as I already said, is a very good reason for not using prostitutes in the first place. If there was even a 1% chance that you thought a woman might have been coerced into prostitution (and by your own logic there is because one 'can't tell'), and that you, if you then 'used' her were therefore nothing but a rapist if she was indeed such an unfortunate individual, then frankly it would be absolutely despicable behaviour and no different in my mind from any other repulsive sexual crime. How do you justify that? "Well, I didn't know 100% that she wasn't forced into the trade so I thought it was ok"? Not a reasonable defence. If the law places the onus on you to know, and you feel you can't easily determine the facts of the situation, then don't do it.

Truth be told there are probably many illegal immigrants who are hard workers at newsstands, restaraunts, day laborer jobs who were brought here through trafficking most likely. Does that mean you would never use their services? Maybe prositutuion isn't the most moral thing in the world, but lets be honestm if you are going to a whore in the first place, I have a feeling the last thing on yoru mind is "Oh Boy, I hope she didn't come against her own will"
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:48 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 32):
if you are going to a whore in the first place, I have a feeling the last thing on yoru mind is "Oh Boy, I hope she didn't come against her own will"

Which merely serves to expose the incredibly base morals of such an individual.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 32):
Truth be told there are probably many illegal immigrants who are hard workers at newsstands, restaraunts, day laborer jobs who were brought here through trafficking most likely

It's not that simple. These kind of people are often assisted in illegally entering so that they may then find work. There may have been a financial arrangement or whatever behind that. The word 'trafficking' means to be shipped to a country for a specific purpose or exploitation, and that is an important point. In the case of labour, even in western countries today people are trafficked to effectively work as slaves, in poor, unsafe conditions for minimal pay in the black market. The case of the Morecambe Bay cockle pickers in the UK was a good example of this. If you haven't heard of it, Google it and read up.

However, I think there is a massive difference between illegal working, and even slave labour, and forcing someone into sexual slavery and exploitation. To me it is just about the most awful, nightmarish thing imaginable to do to a vulnerable human being from a poor background, and anyone who supports it in any small way should, in my opinion, be severely punished. It is sick, nothing more, nothing less.

I do not really see much similarity between the average illegal worker's situation and someone being effectively kidnapped and forced into prostitution, being raped sometimes dozens of times per day and subjected to extreme levels of violence and coercion. Sound extreme? Yes, but it happens, and people should not make the mistake of thinking otherwise. Just imagine if such a thing happened to a loved one. The thought is unbearable.
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GDB
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:29 pm

At least going for the customers might be a step in the right direction.

Remember, the majority of customers are those married or in a serious relationship.
And most encounters do not happen on drunken stag nights or similar.

My own view is that a properly and strictly regulated environment, is the best hope in protecting against trafficking or similar coercion.
How to get to this is another question though.
 
ltbewr
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:34 am

The proposed policy of this country in question to go after those that may see prostitutes outside the country may be those that go to places to have paid sex with those under the legal age in their home country or under exploited conditions. I doubt it will be going after those seeing legal, adult, prostitutes in places like parts of Germany, Netherlands and so on.

As to 'prudish' attitudes, even the Netherlands is reducing the size of the 'red light' districts of Amsterdam and other areas, no longer support designated parking areas for prostitution and so on because of social changes and pressures.
 
PPVRA
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:35 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 22):
However, I think it is fair to say that prostitution as a whole is so tainted with coercion, crime, drugs etc, that it is reasonable to outlaw it. The justification for this is in protecting the victims of trafficking, sexual violence, etc.

The same is said of gambling, for example. And alcohol.

Still, it's not right to spoil it for everyone just because some people have turned to crime. And even worse is to jail someone for receiving payment or for paying for sex who has done no harm.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:05 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
The same is said of gambling, for example. And alcohol.

Which we already have controls on.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
Still, it's not right to spoil it for everyone just because some people have turned to crime. And even worse is to jail someone for receiving payment or for paying for sex who has done no harm.

If it even in some tiny way helps prevent someone falling into sexual slavery and being beaten and raped every day then I think it is perfectly fair. There will always be the 'thin end of the wedge' with such laws, but that's just the way it is. I don't think people, or even in fact one person, should be endangered just because some individuals can't keep it in their pants or get a girlfriend. Maybe one could say it's a shame that we all have to be banned from things because a certain section of society spoil it for everyone else, but that's often the way it is and, like it or not, there are very significant and nasty problems connected with the sex trade that need dealing with. If when we tackle these horrible issues one of the side effects is that some people don't get to pay a stranger for sex, then forgive me but I have zerio sympathy. I'd rather protect the vulnerable.
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:10 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 37):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
The same is said of gambling, for example. And alcohol.

Which we already have controls on.

When alcohol was banned, we ended up with more trouble than when it was open and legal. I think prostitution is one of those areas in which the practice won't stop, it will go under the table, and there won't be any kind of legal recourse for anyone who is abused.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 37):
I don't think people, or even in fact one person, should be endangered just because some individuals can't keep it in their pants or get a girlfriend.

It's about you having the liberty to do as you wish with your body. The "customer" certainly has no say in this. And remember, it's the individual who is choosing to take the risk, no one is putting them in a dangerous situation.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:02 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
it's the individual who is choosing to take the risk, no one is putting them in a dangerous situation.

If in this case 'the individual' refers to the prostitute, then I can't agree. As already explained, there are huge problems with trafficking, coercion and sexual violence which, despite there being more 'repectable' (if I may apply that word to prostitution) branches of the trade, absolutely must be tackled. I would rather one hundred men could not use a 'willing' prostitute than for even one sex slave to be abused day in, day out.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
The "customer" certainly has no say in this

The customer has every say in this, and has a huge responsibility. Trafficking etc is a harsh reality, but a reality nevertheless. If you even for a second think there might be a 0.5% chance the prostitute you are going to take advantage of may be trafficked, forced or otherwise unwillingly participating in proceedings, then to proceed is no better than rape. As others have pointed out that it is almost impossible for a customer to know whether this is the case, yet we know for sure that such grotesque abuses happen, there is no excuse and no defence in ignorance.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
I think prostitution is one of those areas in which the practice won't stop, it will go under the table, and there won't be any kind of legal recourse for anyone who is abused.

It certainly won't stop as long as people try to justify it, excuse it, or simply seek to accept it as a fact of life.
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mbmbos
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
As already explained, there are huge problems with trafficking, coercion and sexual violence...

Will you please cite your sources that identify this as a "huge" problem? Anecdotal stories don't qualify. I'd like to see some hard statistics from reliable sources.

Also, where is "human trafficking", "coercion" and "violence" occurring? Any stats on that?

Are these horrors occurring where prostitution is legal and is regulated, such as Vancouver, London and Amsterdam? Or are they more likely to occur in places where prostitution is illegal? Have you seen any statistics that attempt to correlate this?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
If you even for a second think there might be a 0.5% chance...

So, even if someone thinks there might be a miniscule chance, they are morally culpable? Do you apply this think-there-might-be rule to all areas of your morality?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
It certainly won't stop as long as people try to justify it, excuse it, or simply seek to accept it as a fact of life.

How do you plan to regulate/legislate how people think? Based on your syllogism above prostitution cannot be controlled until every single person's attitude toward prostitution reflects your own.
 
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:26 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):

If in this case 'the individual' refers to the prostitute, then I can't agree. As already explained, there are huge problems with trafficking, coercion and sexual violence which, despite there being more 'repectable' (if I may apply that word to prostitution) branches of the trade, absolutely must be tackled.

Crimes need to be dealt with individually.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
I would rather one hundred men could not use a 'willing' prostitute than for even one sex slave to be abused day in, day out.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
The customer has every say in this, and has a huge responsibility. Trafficking etc is a harsh reality, but a reality nevertheless. If you even for a second think there might be a 0.5% chance the prostitute you are going to take advantage of may be trafficked, forced or otherwise unwillingly participating in proceedings, then to proceed is no better than rape.

You didn't understand what I said.

If a person decides to sell his or her body, it's up to them and no one else. Not allowing them to do so through forceful means would constitute an abuse as well. The customer has no say in whether the person in question sells their body or not because it is someone else's body, not his own. It's entirely up to the would-be prostitute to decide to prostitute or not. Violating this would construe rape on the part of the would-be customer, if forcefully enforced by carrying it out (just like the law you are proposing, but instead of violating the body, it is violating the prostitute's freedom to choose for herself).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:32 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 41):
If a person decides to sell his or her body, it's up to them and no one else. Not allowing them to do so through forceful means would constitute an abuse as well

Not necessarily. Some things, such as drugs and prostitution, can impact on other people too, whether initially meant to or not. In the case of hard drugs, one could argue that it is my own silly fault if I want to take them and that it will hurt only me. However, we know that drug addiction often leads to crime and other such serious or antisocial problems. We also know that prostitution can lead to crime and safety issues that affect others, and not just the ones I have already mentioned. Therefore no, it is not merely a case of individual freedom.
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:50 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
Some things, such as drugs and prostitution, can impact on other people too, whether initially meant to or not.

And the prohibition of these has not ended the impact on other people's lives. Under alcohol prohibition we ended up far worse off, and I'm sure this is the case for drugs as well. Theft, murder, all alive and well despite drug prohibition. Drug users steal to pay for exorbitant drug prices due to prohibition. They also get murdered if they can't afford to pay back.

At least when these things are legalized, the people who create the demand for drugs are the ones who pay the price. As is, we have police officers getting shot dead, people who never touched drugs also finding themselves in the receiving end of bullets because of addicts resorting to violence to get their fix.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
However, we know that drug addiction often leads to crime and other such serious or antisocial problems

We certainly know that alcohol prohibition led to crime (in part of the alcohol traffickers, not the users) and that legalization helped improve the situation.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
Therefore no, it is not merely a case of individual freedom.

It is, and it is also a case of unintended consequences as in the classic case of alcohol prohibition. Individual freedom not only is right, it also works better than anything else.

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I do not endorse any of these behaviors, be it prostitution or drug use. I certainly see them as social ills. But that does not mean I wish to see them banned at any cost, and certainly don't think we will be doing ourselves a favor in banning them.

[Edited 2009-01-03 14:55:22]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
RussianJet
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:06 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
We certainly know that alcohol prohibition led to crime (in part of the alcohol traffickers, not the users) and that legalization helped improve the situation.

That is certainly true, but alcohol and drugs are for another thread. You have some very good points, but I guess I just can't agree. In my experience (and to be clear, I do not mean as a customer OR a prostitute!) prostitution and crime tend to go hand in hand, and even where there are legal, regulated setups, there is always an element in the shadows, always someone seeking something more, something cheaper, something more illegal or whatever. I don't think that will ever go away, and I also have a problem with the whole thing in that I just don't think people should be allowed to buy and sell people's bodies. However, it is clear we will have to agree to disagree about how best to tackle these ills.
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PPVRA
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:18 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
In my experience (and to be clear, I do not mean as a customer OR a prostitute!) prostitution and crime tend to go hand in hand, and even where there are legal, regulated setups, there is always an element in the shadows, always someone seeking something more, something cheaper, something more illegal or whatever. I don't think that will ever go away

I agree with that. Sad, but true.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
However, it is clear we will have to agree to disagree about how best to tackle these ills.

Agreed.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mbmbos
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:32 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
In my experience (and to be clear, I do not mean as a customer OR a prostitute!) prostitution and crime tend to go hand in hand...

So you've never been a prostitute or a john, and you fail to cite any facts; what, then, is your "experience" based on?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
That is certainly true, but alcohol and drugs are for another thread.

The reference to prohibition against alcohol is an example of analogy; it was not brought up to discuss the merits of legalizing alcohol but to demonstrate what happens when the state attempts to absolutely restrict a vice. It is a reasonable analogy and completely appropriate in the context of this thread.
 
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:45 pm



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 46):
So you've never been a prostitute or a john

Hell no.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 46):
what, then, is your "experience" based on?

Professional experience of the worst aspects of what has been discussed, which there is no way in I am at liberty or willing to go into here. You may agree or disagree with my opinions, entirely your perogative.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 46):
It is a reasonable analogy and completely appropriate in the context of this thread.

In some respects maybe, but I don't really think it's a good analogy of anything beyond the purely legal aspect. In terms of sexual violence, trafficking and other such elements, it has no relevance.
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mbmbos
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:54 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
...which there is no way in I am at liberty or willing to go into here...

So you're saying you have special insight into this issue and we should therefore accept your authority on this topic without revealing what you know, without citing any facts, any statistics and refusing to work with anybody else's analogies or arguments.

You're right - it's my prerogative and I'm not buying it.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
In terms of sexual violence, trafficking and other such elements, it has no relevance.

Actually, I think that's a very interesting statement. Do you think that alcohol is less of a factor in sexual violence than prostitution? I really doubt that, actually.
 
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RE: So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes

Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:03 am



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 48):
So you're saying you have special insight into this issue and we should therefore accept your authority on this topic without revealing what you know, without citing any facts, any statistics and refusing to work with anybody else's analogies or arguments.

No, I'm saying my experiences have formed my opinions. It's up to you to agree with them or not, honestly that doesn't interest me. I can only give my opinions as they are.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 48):
Do you think that alcohol is less of a factor in sexual violence than prostitution? I really doubt that, actually.

Sexual violence comes in many forms and contexts. In a domestic setting alcohol certainly can feature highly. In terms of organised crime relating to prostitution, trafficking, daily repression of those forced into sexual slavery and controlled for prostitution, I would say it is less relevant, though again can be an issue as there are many different settings and contexts at play there as well.
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