ME AVN FAN
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Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:56 pm

The "International Green Zone" has been handed over by the USA to the Republic of Iraq. Iraqi Airways getting allied to AirFrance-KLM now. British and Australian troops to get out in July or August 2009.
-
Looks as if Iraq is becoming independent again.
 
Thorben
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:18 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
Looks as if Iraq is becoming independent again.

And then? Civil war Sunni vs. Shia?? Kuridsh Independence and a Turkish invasion? As much as the US troops are a problem and burden, they are the ones preventing open civil war. All the killings in the past years are just a pretaste to what we could see once the US troops leave.

I would say the country is headed for being split up. However, who will get Baghdad, which is half Sunni and half Shia??

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
Iraqi Airways getting allied to AirFrance-KLM now

Hahaha, what an irony. Old Europe at its best. But to be honest, what could Iraqi Airways learn from an US carrier??
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
dxing
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:24 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
Looks as if Iraq is becoming independent again.

OMG it's still a blood bath as I was told a week or so ago. Those AQ types are just laying low setting off a bomb here or there to make things look interesting. You just wait and see!!! That country will be in turmoil till long after we are gone!!!
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:02 am



Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Hahaha, what an irony. Old Europe at its best. But to be honest, what could Iraqi Airways learn from an US carrier??

Oh, I don't know. Southwest Airlines would have made an interesting partnership - the only airline to consistantly make money over the past 30 years. Iraqi Airways could be an excellent low-cost airline throughout that part of the world.

 Wink
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STT757
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:44 am

The status of Forces agreement between Iraq and the US that was recently approved by the Iraqi Parliament calls for the with drawl of US forces from Iraqi cities this year, this has already begun in places like Falujah. Falujah was the scene of some of the fiercest and bloodiest battles of the US occupation, now it's the poster of US and Iraqi cooperation. The Sunnis of Anbar Provence are now the US's biggest allies in Iraq, and US Marines are now leaving the city of Fulujah which is now one of the safest areas of Iraq. Camp Fulujah once home to 15,000 Marines is being dismantled, and the Marines are leaving.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/30/africa/30falluja.php

What's happening in Fulujah is happening in Cities all across Iraq, with violence down and the Iraqi security forces now strong enough to conduct operations on their own US forces are pulling out of the Cities and onto fewer but larger bases. Eventually almost all US Brigade Combat teams will withdraw from Iraq (by 2011), however there will continue to be a US military presence at 4-5 enduring bases around Iraq. Away from the Cities and population centers these bases will be there for several reasons, train Iraqi forces, fight Al Qaeda, deter Iranian interference within Iraq and to keep the Sunnis, Shia and Kurds from starting another bloody civil war.

The Kurds and even the Sunnis of Anbar have stated they want US bases in their regions to help balance power with the Shia dominated Central Government.

Quote:
What’s more, both the Kurds and Sunni Arabs in western Iraq, where the Al Assad Airbase is located, are likely to facilitate a U.S. military presence for a long time. A Washington representative for the Kurdistan Regional Government, Qubad Talabani, whose father Jalal is president of Iraq, told me last week, “As Kurdish leaders have said in the past, American forces will always be welcome in the Kurdistan region, and we look forward to working with our American friends within the framework of this law to discuss America’s long-term presence in our region.” Far from booting U.S. forces out of the country, he believes that the sofa “gives America the legal cover for expanding their already good relations with Iraqi security institutions.” And the influential Sunni leader Sheik Ahmad Rishawi, head of the Anbar Awakening, told me in an interview in June that he had hoped a long-term treaty with America would be based on “mutual friendship” and compared the future sofa to similar accords struck with postwar Japan and Germany, where American troops are garrisoned to this day.

http://www.ripda.org/?p=242

The occupation is indeed ending, but in everyone's best interests US forces will remain in the background to provide stability. These bases such as Al Assad in the Western desert are far from any Iraqi population centers, so most Iraqis will not even know US forces are there.
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jcs17
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:53 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
The "International Green Zone" has been handed over by the USA to the Republic of Iraq. Iraqi Airways getting allied to AirFrance-KLM now. British and Australian troops to get out in July or August 2009.
-
Looks as if Iraq is becoming independent again.

Can you at least admit that the US has done an admirable job in turning the place around?
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:28 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
Falujah

It is spelled Fallujah.

Sorry to make it an issue, but one of the few things General Petraeus is known to get publicly angry about, is when he hears/sees a soldier mispronounce/misspell an Iraqi city name.

"How can you protect the people - respect the people - if you cannot properly pronounce their city names?"

It only takes 2 seconds on google to get it right.

-------------------

As for the rest of this thread, I would say "I told you so", but it would only fall on deaf ears. People have already made up their minds. Any evidence to the contrary is simply dismissed.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:32 am



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 5):
Can you at least admit that the US has done an admirable job in turning the place around?

I too believe that the U.S. military has done a fine job in securing Iraq.

In the aftermath of the proposed U.S. military pull-out from Iraq, I think that the situation within Iraq will rapidly disintegrate into chaos. I believe that corruption is absorbing most of the country's oil resources. Iraq's central government is corrupt from top to bottom — that officials at the top of the pile are making money from things like government contracts. And it's very difficult to tell what is truly corruption and what is political positioning given the void between political parties and religious sects - it's not uncommon for government agency heads to falsely accuse another agency head of "corruption". A U.S. State Department investigation found that Iraqi ministries routinely refuse to cooperate with Iraq's Commission on Public Integrity, and the watchdog agency's investigators are often unable to enter government offices because they don't have enough firepower to defend themselves. And nothing has changed beside the fact that the dictator (and one-time U.S. ally) Saddam Hussein is dead, IMO.

Oh, and we'll have the exact same problem when it comes time to pull U.S. military forces out of Afghanistan from my perspective.
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fridgmus
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:35 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 7):

Well said Stasis. I hope it doesn't come down to that, but it probably will.

The Iraqi's are basically a good bunch of folks, but their leaders are just too corrupt. They are more interested in fattening their bank accounts and settling old tribal scores.

While Camp Fallujah has closed, the Marines are still in the Fallujah area, just in case the Iraqi army and Iraqi police need backing up and training.

What I'm wondering is, will the Kurds try to get a separate agreement with us to stay in the Kurdish areas? I know we'll toe the line with the Iraqi govt, but it would just be interesting to see what happens on that front as I honestly believe the Kurds will try to proclaim a sovereign state in the future. The Kurds I know are just regular working folks, but that is all they talk about. I guess we'll see.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:27 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
And then? Civil war Sunni vs. Shia?? Kuridsh Independence and a Turkish invasion? As much as the US troops are a problem and burden, they are the ones preventing open civil war. All the killings in the past years are just a pretaste to what we could see once the US troops leave.

I would say the country is headed for being split up. However, who will get Baghdad, which is half Sunni and half Shia??

And "then" ? Iraq, in spite of reports over recent years, is basically a Secularist country, with many many "mixed" Sunni-Shi'ite families. So that the sectarian thing is not as important as the media has had it for quite a while. Kurdistan ? YES, Iraqi Kurdistan at one time or the other, please ask Mr Talabani about the schedules ! , will become independent. I would suggest to the Turks, in spite of their army-corps right north of the Iraqi border with some 800'000 soldiers (the total of the TK armed forces is around 3 mio men, depending on season) , NOT to get into adventures . Once the US forces finally get out, the test for the al-Maliki government may come. A coup-d'etat is fairly likely, while I at the other hand would not under-estimate Mr al-Maliki. One thing however is sure. As soon as the US-forces are out, the Socialist Party of the Arab Reawakening and the Communist Party will become legal again and take their place in Iraqi politics.
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No, I do NOT expect a split-up of Iraq in regard to denominational criteria. You of course might say that the central and northwestern Arab parts might unite with Syria and the population-wise heavy South with Iran. But this again is not to happen as the THR leaders are well aware that Southern Iraq in combination with Arabistan/Khuzistan would build such a heavy Arab part of their country, that the Farsi dominance (against Kurds, Beluchis, etc) would become threatened.

Quoting DXing (Reply 2):
Those AQ types are just laying low setting off a bomb here or there to make things look interesting.

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You are a victim of the media. AQ Iraq LLC is a rather minor company, only noteable due to its extreme brutality, but it in spite of being a franchisee of the "big brother" still is the old gang of Jordanian street muggers it has always been. The violence in question originated from a variety of volatile organisations.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Southwest Airlines would have made an interesting partnership - the only airline to consistantly make money over the past 30 years. Iraqi Airways could be an excellent low-cost airline throughout that part of the world.

-
The point is that Iraqi Airways is not interested in destinations like Dallas Love Field and Houston Hobby Airport and Las Vegas, but in places like London, Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 5):
Can you at least admit that the US has done an admirable job in turning the place around?

-
has done YES, admirable NO. Because all what was achieved would have been available to the USA and Iraq and the world three or four years ago with a more intelligent political management. And at a fourth of the price for the USA taxpayers.
 
Elite
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:39 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
has done YES, admirable NO. Because all what was achieved would have been available to the USA and Iraq and the world three or four years ago with a more intelligent political management. And at a fourth of the price for the USA taxpayers.

Of course we could look back now and say, "we could have done things differently". But at that moment I feel that the US government - the Bush administration - handled things the best they could. In the future, if the same thing was done, of course it would be unacceptable. But it was the first time, and in the end the mission was accomplished.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:46 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 10):
handled things the best they could.

-
While I DISagree in regard to "the best" I simply appreciate things getting positive, and if it helps the image of the man I still detest, so be it.
 
baroque
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:51 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
Sorry to make it an issue, but one of the few things General Petraeus is known to get publicly angry about, is when he hears/sees a soldier mispronounce/misspell an Iraqi city name.

Should he not then be saying something to his boss about the way said boss pronounces the name of the country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq
Audio file in the link.
Or are you telling us he invaded the wrong country? Could be.

Quoting DXing (Reply 2):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
Looks as if Iraq is becoming independent again.

OMG it's still a blood bath as I was told a week or so ago. Those AQ types are just laying low setting off a bomb here or there to make things look interesting. You just wait and see!!! That country will be in turmoil till long after we are gone!!!

Well I suppose that is intended as irony, but I am not sure a mess such as Iraq is really the spot for irony.

I don't suppose the Sunni chiefs that were blown up yesterday are best pleased.

Even if it were an amazing succes from now, that would still not excuse the incompetence, death and misery on many sides from 2003 till mid 2008 it would merely support a plea in mitigation.
 
Elite
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:53 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
and if it helps the image of the man I still detest, so be it.

If the last visit to Iraq by President Bush is any indication, it is that the image of President Bush in Iraq has not improved.
 
Elite
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:55 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):

Should he not then be saying something to his boss about the way said boss pronounces the name of the country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq
Audio file in the link.
Or are you telling us he invaded the wrong country? Could be.

That's unnecessary. President Bush is from Texas; obviously, he will have a southern accent and the words he pronounces will sound different than a person from New York or from elsewhere.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:50 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 5):
Can you at least admit that the US has done an admirable job in turning the place around?

Uh, no. How long have we been there, Jcs? Almost 6 YEARS, and we screwed those people over and over and over, with this bungled invasion, with no real plan for after Baghdad fell, for allowing al Qaeda into the nation, and sowing terror all over the place.

The soldiers have done a great job, but the Administration did a horrendous job in executing the invasion-using too few troops for an occupation, and for gutting the security forces of that nation. So, to say the U.S. had done and admirable job is to deny the reality.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
As for the rest of this thread, I would say "I told you so", but it would only fall on deaf ears. People have already made up their minds. Any evidence to the contrary is simply dismissed.

Maybe you can say "I told you so", my friend. But it's taken far longer than this Administration thought it would, and it was not a sure thing-and still isn't. Iraq has a long way to go. I hope they make it.

As for evidence to the contrary being dismissed, read what JCS wrote, and the total denial of the reality of Iraq over the last 6 years. The evidence is that the Bush Adminstration screwed up, and to deny that is to deny reality.
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NIKV69
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 2):
That country will be in turmoil till long after we are gone!!!

Don't worry Barack Obama is going to go over there and talk to everyone and resolve their differences.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:04 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Don't worry Barack Obama is going to go over there and talk to everyone and resolve their differences.

Imagine that-a President that is willing to TALK to others! What a refreshing change from the last 8 years of "my way or the highway" diplomacy.

Incredible.
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NIKV69
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:34 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Imagine that-a President that is willing to TALK to others! What a refreshing change from the last 8 years of "my way or the highway" diplomacy.

Unfortunately Bush's policy was far from that. I was being sarcastic as Obama is already showing how ill prepared he is to deal with what is going on. The Islamic world has already called him out twice on his flipping. Him and Hillary bring absolutely nothing to the table for the only solution is that terrorism will and can not stand and that Hamas and AQ and all the other people that want every jew dead must be dealt with by force. This is the only language they speak. That and Isreal ceasing to exist which they are all prepared to try to make happen. Most of the middle east took his words way too seriously and now that he has basically backed Isreal his credibility is shot to them. The sooner you see that talking can not work with these radical anti-semites the better off you will be. If you are still thinking Obama is going to wave a magic wand on Jan 20th your in for a surprise. I just hope he doesn't do something real stupid because our safety is at issue here and I don't want to see another 9/11 just because our new president wants to be everybody's friend like Jimmy Carter. We all saw how much a disaster that can be.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:37 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 18):
I was being sarcastic as Obama is already showing how ill prepared he is to deal with what is going on.

I know you were sarcastic. And it's a pretty big leap for you to say he's ill-prepared, since he hasn't even taken office yet. But he's a Democrat, and I understand you have to keep up the same old, discredited party line.  Yeah sure
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NIKV69
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:05 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
And it's a pretty big leap for you to say he's ill-prepared, since he hasn't even taken office yet. But he's a Democrat, and I understand you have to keep up the same old, discredited party line.

If you look at things objectively and not through the Obama goggles you would see that he has not only angered the radical Islamists (proven by their rections to his words post election that named him as well) and has no real plan to deal with anything. He has survived up till now with the help of CNN and his speech writers but he has no reel plan of dealing with Hamas, AQ or anything else of that nature. You loved him because he told you what you wanted to hear in that he would talk to these people but you failed to see that can never happen. You were just in a rush to hold up your banner and say "we won!" Now the lights are about to go on and your candidate has nothing but Hillary and GWB's stance in that Iran will never be nuclear armed etc. Now Isreal isn't stupid they have seen the same thing I have and that Obama is weak, green and way out of his league and rather than wait till he takes office and see what he will do or what he won't do they said enough of the thuggery and killing and are fighting the people that refuse to allow them to live in peace and I am glad they have and also gladd they are going to keep the heat up and fight to the end. If you weed out the CNN spin on how Isreal is a big bad bully and see that Hamas and the rest of these terrorists are the ones that need to be dealth with and dealth weith harshly you will see that your candidate is going to do nothing different that the previous admimistration has done, yet your are too far invested in him to admit it. If you still want to believe he is going to go over there and make everyone have a group hug and solve this problem that has been arorund for far longer than Bush or Obama are it is your right but trust me it's not even close to reality.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
dxing
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:26 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
But it's taken far longer than this Administration thought it would,

I remember a President saying we were going to defeat poverty in our own country, say 42 years ago? Is that taking longer than expected? How many have died waiting on that? To listen to some bleeding hearts they are starving by the dozen each day right here in this country.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
And it's a pretty big leap for you to say he's ill-prepared,

Why? What diplomatic post has he held? What job has he had that has equipped him to sit down and hammer out any agreement with two or more warring parties?

As someone else said, any evidence to the contrary that things are going well will be dismissed. The idea that President Bush is handing over a situation that is much improved over just 18 months ago will be totally overlooked. If the situation continues to improve it will only be because of whatever happens after January 20th. If the situation turns around and goes south it will only be because of whatever wasn't done before January 20th.
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bill142
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:36 am



Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
what could Iraqi Airways learn from an US carrier

How to file for bankruptcy protection.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:00 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):
Should he not then be saying something to his boss about the way said boss pronounces the name of the country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq
Audio file in the link.
Or are you telling us he invaded the wrong country? Could be.

The fact that you couldn't resist the opportunity to twist my words around, and turn it into a political slap, added to the fact that your joke fell woefully short; can only be responded to, by simply saying:

Lame.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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mariner
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting Elite (Reply 10):
Of course we could look back now and say, "we could have done things differently".

Yes. Such as not going there in the first place.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:56 am

I think the improvement in Iraq is almost completely due to the heroic work of our forces there-guys like UH60, who have put it on the line, every day, for 7 years, and who have, DESPITE the incompetence of the administration, they have done an incredible job.

And it's also due, in part, to the persistence of many Iraqi's, despite the hardships they've endured for the last 3 decades, and despite being "rescued" when they didn't ask for it, many are trying to make the best of a situation that was beyond the control of most of them.

That's who deserves the praise, not this current President, that's for sure.
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dxing
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:18 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
That's who deserves the praise, not this current President, that's for sure.

As stated, if Iraq continues towards a peaceful independence then it will all be due to what happens after January 20th even if that is simply a continuation of current policy. No credit will be given to the next administration being handed a situation that is a far cry from 18-24 months ago. Of course if things go south then it will still be President Bushes fault no matter what leads to the situation deteriorating even if it is because of policy changes made after January 20th. Not anything less than I expected from Falcon.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:21 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 26):
No credit will be given to the next administration being handed a situation that is a far cry from 18-24 months ago.

Fair enough, but I will certainly not credit the Bush Administration, who badly bungled the invasion, and the occupation. It's been not because of anything Bush has done-to the contrary, he situation is improving DESPITE the incompetence of this administration.
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dxing
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:41 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
It's been not because of anything Bush has done-to the contrary, he situation is improving DESPITE the incompetence of this administration.

Which is just another way of saying the same thing you did before. If the situation has gotten better since the surge, which you supported with all the warmth of distilled water on the rack in the grocery store, then you have to give credit where credit is due. But you won't and I won't waste my time waiting for it. As I said, if the situation goes well after January 20th it will be all the things that the next administration has done. If it turns and goes badly, it will be all the things that this administration didn't do. And for some no matter how much progress is made the place will always be a blood bath and just one more car bomb away from anarchy.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:47 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 28):
If the situation has gotten better since the surge, which you supported with all the warmth of distilled water on the rack in the grocery store, then you have to give credit where credit is due

Peatrus gets credit for the Surge. It was his idea, and it made sense. Bush approved it. Again, why should I give Bush the credit for Peatrus' idea? And should YOU not give "credit" to Bush for the incompetence shown up to that time, that made the surge necessary?

And, to go along with that, this damn fool of a conflict in Iraq has led to the Afghan war being in trouble now, because we took men and resources away from that war, which, if you didn't remember, was started because of 9/11. That was the war that should have been the main theater, not this made-up, bogus threat from Iraq.
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Elite
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:39 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):

Yes, General Petraeus has definitely done a very good job with the surge in Iraq, but Bush also pushed for the surge and it's just wrong to not give Bush any credit for any good that has gone on in Iraq, but be quick to blame him for any problems that occur.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:59 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Peatrus gets credit for the Surge. It was his idea, and it made sense. Bush approved it. Again, why should I give Bush the credit for Peatrus' idea?

Well lets be frank, it was not "Petraeus's idea" (and Falcon, you could at least spell the guy's name correctly. He's only one of the most important generals since, at least, Viet Nam).

Now with that being said, I am not attempting to diminish what General Petraeus has accomplished. He helped write FM 3-07.22, which is our counterinsurgency field manual. He took the failed strategy that SecDef Rumsfeld and General Casey were implementing, and switched to a "population security" strategy.

But it was not "his idea". The ideas that he implemented were decades, some hundreds, of years old. That is probably one of the biggest gripes I have with the outgoing administration: their initial failure to conduct the war on known, and proven, military concepts. We already knew how to fight a counterinsurgency war. We already had the basic strategies laid out. But the administrations, specifically Mr. Rumsfeld, refused to adhere to that doctrine, and had the arrogance to believe they could write their own doctrine.

Their stubbornness, and the fact that it look 4 years to switch strategies, costs thousands of needless deaths, countless number of broken families and lives and untold amount of suffering. It is their biggest stain.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:17 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
Their stubbornness, and the fact that it look 4 years to switch strategies, costs thousands of needless deaths, countless number of broken families and lives and untold amount of suffering. It is their biggest stain.

If you were to lobby that same statement at the Vice President, Rumsfeld, and a few other lofty paragons of arrogance in this administration (note I'm not including the CinC) you'd likely get this response: "So??" And before the apologists come calling, I need to only remind everyone that that same response has already been uttered by Mr. Cheney on more than one occasion to any criticism of how the war has transpired.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:08 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
If you were to lobby that same statement at the Vice President, Rumsfeld, and a few other lofty paragons of arrogance in this administration (note I'm not including the CinC) you'd likely get this response: "So??" And before the apologists come calling, I need to only remind everyone that that same response has already been uttered by Mr. Cheney on more than one occasion to any criticism of how the war has transpired.

Oddly enough, for me, the increasing success in Iraq, only serves to make me more bitter and angry.

Because what we are doing today - utilizing classic counterinsurgency methods - are strategies perfected over the long course of military history. ...And they're working.

And for years we were told that this was a new kind of war, and thus required new kinds of techniques, and I bought into their argument. And their arguments ultimately betrayed our trust, and failed miserably. All the while, I saw good people needlessly die, because of it.

And now that we see the the original doctrine - the one they arrogantly sought to rewrite - was the right answer. And it took 4 years to switch back to it, simply because a core group of our leaders were too arrogant, too prideful, to admit they were wrong.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:19 pm

Quoting Elite (Reply 13):
and if it helps the image of the man I still detest, so be it.
-
If the last visit to Iraq by President Bush is any indication, it is that the image of President Bush in Iraq has not improved.

-
Not exactly, but I referred to his image inside the USA first and in the world in general second. And by "helps the image" I meant an improvement from absolutely miserable to only fairly miserable.

Quoting Elite (Reply 14):
President Bush is from Texas; obviously, he will have a southern accent and the words he pronounces will sound different than a person from New York or from elsewhere.

-
Whenever he grew up in Texas and even was Governor there for two terms, when speaking, I think I still hear the Maine (NewEngland) accent of his parents. His accent so is not really Texan but somehow "mixed".
-
If you want to listen to a politician who DID speak Texan, listen to this :
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Results/...r/Lyndon-B.-Johnson/3576#play24200
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a speech of Lyndon Baines Johnson, an otherwise great statesman who howver failed in the matter of Vietnam

[Edited 2009-01-04 05:32:39]
 
Elite
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:09 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
Not exactly, but I referred to his image inside the USA first and in the world in general second. And by "helps the image" I meant an improvement from absolutely miserable to only fairly miserable.

If that is your concern, that you need not be worried. President Bush's ratings are still as low as ever and with his term officially coming to an end in 3 weeks, he'll need a miracle for it to improve even slightly.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
Whenever he grew up in Texas and even was Governor there for two terms, when speaking, I think I still hear the Maine (NewEngland) accent of his parents. His accent so is not really Texan but somehow "mixed".

Kinda missed my point, but it wasn't directed to you. Just wanted to say that people with different accents will have different ways of pronouncing words, so Baroque picking on how George Bush says "Iraq" was just unnecessary.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:43 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
Oddly enough, for me, the increasing success in Iraq, only serves to make me more bitter and angry.

I wold think the opposite would be true. You were part of the Surge, is that correct? I think you would be most happy with what wa accomplished. Interesting.
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baroque
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:50 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 35):
Kinda missed my point, but it wasn't directed to you. Just wanted to say that people with different accents will have different ways of pronouncing words, so Baroque picking on how George Bush says "Iraq" was just unnecessary.

Well either there is an aim to pronounce proper nouns according to local custom or there is not. Just tell me which? It is not only Bush, but effectively most of the US media in relation to Iraq. By and large it is about as necessary as telling

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
this has already begun in places like Falujah. Falujah was the

how to spell Fallujah.

Perhaps this is the more so because:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah
tells us:
Fallujah (Arabic: الفلوجة‎; sometimes transliterated as Falluja, Fallouja, or Falowja) is a city in the Iraqi province of Al Anbar
Maybe there is a directory of accepted transliterations, in which case perhaps this should be cited. Otherwise, as the meaning of STT757 was perfectly clear, it seems unduly picky to correct him. Transliterations are notoriously variable. Perhaps one of the Arabic speakers on a.net could help.
 
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par13del
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:27 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
I wold think the opposite would be true. You were part of the Surge, is that correct? I think you would be most happy with what wa accomplished. Interesting.

I believe UH60 was in Iraq long before the surge, at least I recall seeing him posting on this site well before, he'll correct us if I'm wrong.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
And "then" ? Iraq, in spite of reports over recent years, is basically a Secularist country, with many many "mixed" Sunni-Shi'ite families. So that the sectarian thing is not as important as the media has had it for quite a while.

We have seen numerous claims during and after the invasion of the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by US troops, not much evidence to support the claim.

What we have also seen with evidence is the numerous bodies found of executed persons around the country, numerous suicide bombings over the years since the invasion which have killed thousands, the pitched battles between various militia, a lot of Iraqis killed without US or Coalition involvement, one could be forgiven if in the face of all this violence the belief is that once the US and its allies leave, the country will go down hill in rapid fashion.
I have more hope for the Kurds in the north who have not been afflicted with the sectarian violence, even the two Kurdish strong factions have been working together, probably because they want to get their region / country.
As for corruption by the leaders, do you mean the foreigners in-country or the local Iraqis?
 
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mariner
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:43 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 42):
I have more hope for the Kurds in the north who have not been afflicted with the sectarian violence, even the two Kurdish strong factions have been working together, probably because they want to get their region / country.

And if, after WW1, the Allies had lived up to the promises of the Treaty of Sevres (1920), the Kurds might have had their own country.

mariner
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Aaron747
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:40 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
And now that we see the the original doctrine - the one they arrogantly sought to rewrite - was the right answer. And it took 4 years to switch back to it, simply because a core group of our leaders were too arrogant, too prideful, to admit they were wrong.

What would you say to Mr. Cheney, Mr. Perle, Mr. Rumsfeld, Mr. Bremer, et al, given the chance?

I'm still interested to see what history will say about the current Vice President's rapid departure from his previously well-known intellectual vigor given his statements regarding Iraq 1990-92 versus 2003-present.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:36 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
I wold think the opposite would be true. You were part of the Surge, is that correct? I think you would be most happy with what wa accomplished. Interesting.

I deployed to Iraq from early '06 to early '07, for 13 months. When Iraq was at it's absolute worse.

General Petraeus became the commanding general of MNF-I in February, 2007, a little over a month before I left. However, I returned to Iraq again for a month in July/August of 2007, doing some stuff with Iraqi forces. I posted a thread about the improvements I saw from the short time I had been away, and I was ridiculed by some members, for being blindly optimistic.  Yeah sure

I idolize General Petraeus. I've only met him once, and he's not very intimidating body-frame wise... but when he walks into the room, everyone knows it. When he talked to the group I was with, everyone hung on every word. His mind, the way he thinks and perceives issues... it's stunning. And I think that goes for a vast majority of soldiers who served under him: unwavering respect for him.

And as for your question, of course I am proud/happy that the situation has been reversed. But that still doesn't excuse the fact that we allowed it to get so bad, before it got good. The answers, the strategies, were there, but they were not given the opportunity to succeed, because of poor leadership.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 40):
What would you say to Mr. Cheney, Mr. Perle, Mr. Rumsfeld, Mr. Bremer, et al, given the chance?

I'm still interested to see what history will say about the current Vice President's rapid departure from his previously well-known intellectual vigor given his statements regarding Iraq 1990-92 versus 2003-present.

I wouldn't be rude, or disrespectful. I would like to ask them a bunch of questions, but I know it would be a futile enterprise. They are not people who publicly admit to errors. They will go to their death beds, believing they made the right choices.

There is no debating/discussing with people like that. It's pointless. So to answer your question, if I met them, I would simply wish them well in a very quiet, and secluded, private life.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:04 am

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1131...-keep-oil-price-in-check-for-years
Iraqi oil production was about 2.5 mb/d before the U.S. invaded. It dropped to about 1.4 mb/d and is now back up to just under the starting point. Iraq's claimed reserves of some 115 billion barrels (second only to those of Saudi Arabia) are sufficient for it to achieve their new goal of producing 6 mb/d (2.2 billion barrels per year), even if actual reserves are a good deal less than what they claim.

It's not clear that Iraq can achieve this new production objective in 4 - 5 years. The primary impediment seems to be the threat of continued violence, particularly in the face of the withdrawal of U.S. troops scheduled for 2009 - 2010. There may also be problems with its neighbors, Iran and Kuwait, who's borders the Iraqi fields straddle. Absent political impediments, the production goal would seem plausible enough given that Iraqi oil is fairly easy to find and extract and there is a lot of drilling capacity now available to do the job.


Unfortunately the article does not state what "just under" is.

Mind you, data on Iraq oil are not always consistent/reliable
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...tural_resources/article5435334.ece
Reports E Baghdad reserves at :
In a drive to double Iraq's crude oil output within four years, its Oil Ministry is offering up a second round of long-term contracts to develop some of the country's biggest oil and gas fields. The batch includes the East Baghdad oilfield, which stretches beneath the outskirts of the capital and is thought to contain more than 9 billion barrels, according to figures from the US Department of Energy. The field's potential daily production capacity is estimated at about 120,000 barrels per day. Its production before the war was 50,000 barrels per day, but it has not operated since 2003.

Whereas AAPG reported them at initial reserves of 1 billion barrels with remaining reserves at 21% or 215 million barrels. Something not quite right somewhere.

Just to add to the confusion, DOE itself reports Est reserves at 8 billion barrels.

And to the mix should be added:
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2003/0512globalenvironment_luft.aspx
It is particularly important to verify the estimates of Iraqi reserves since the DOE figures stand in contrast to those of an equally reputable U.S. government organization. In its 2000 World Petroleum Assessment, the Department of the Interior's U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) presented figures based on extensive geologic studies by a team of more than 40 geoscientists claiming that, as of the end of 1995, Iraq had 100 bbl of proven reserves, of which 22 bbl had already been recovered. Hence, according to the USGS, Iraq's current proven reserves amount to only 78 bbl---only two-thirds of the DOE's more commonly accepted 112 bbl estimate.

When it comes to assessing Iraq's undiscovered reserves, the differences between the DOE and the USGS becomes even starker. According to the USGS---which is hardly a Chicken Little when it comes to reserve predictions---there is a 95 percent probability that Iraq has at least 14 bbl, a 50 percent probability that it has at least 45 bbl, but only a 5 percent probability that it has 84 bbl of undiscovered reserves. This means that the probability that Iraq has 200 bbl or 300 bbl, as so many of the reports have suggested, is, according to USGS calculations, close to nil.

The discrepancies between the United States' two chief government agencies dealing with energy assessments are so sharp that they present entirely contradictory images of Iraq's oil potential. If the DOE data is right, then Iraq has the world's second largest proven reserves. On the other hand, if the USGS figures are right (and they are also endorsed by the 2002 Energy Outlook of the Paris-based International Energy Agency, whose projections are recognized as authoritative throughout the energy world), then Russia would be second, with roughly twice the reserves of Iraq.


The USGS are more consistent with the AAPG data than are the DOE data.

I hope the Iraqis are less confused about their oil reserves than the US government agencies seem to be. Then again, they should be, as the data were theirs in the first place???? But it should be pointed out that the economic future of a country with reserves of 45 billion barrels (most likely USGS number) is very different from one with 100 billion barrels or the usual pre invasion number of 200 billion barrels.
 
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par13del
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:22 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
I hope the Iraqis are less confused about their oil reserves than the US government agencies seem to be. Then again, they should be, as the data were theirs in the first place???? But it should be pointed out that the economic future of a country with reserves of 45 billion barrels (most likely USGS number) is very different from one with 100 billion barrels or the usual pre invasion number of 200 billion barrels

More important is how much money the US has made from its incursion into Iraq which should offset the billions that the US taxpayors are pouring into the country. The world opinion is that the US started this war for oil, so far we have not seen any detailed studies showing how much money / oil the US has liberated from the Iraqi people, we see everyday the amount of funds going the other way, if only in this day and age we could get some non-politcal news media without an agenda.

I'm waiting for it but not holding my breath.
 
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yowza
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:28 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
Looks as if Iraq is becoming independent again.

A tad hasty me thinks.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 5):
Can you at least admit that the US has done an admirable job in turning the place around?

Setting a house on fire then peeing on it to try put the flames out is not exactly admirable. No doubt the MASSIVE embassy you've plopped down on Iraqi soil is there to help manage the blaze.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
It only takes 2 seconds on google to get it right.

I appreciate your sentiment but since Arabic letters don't map to English on a one to one basis there is really not correct spelling - merely accepted spellings. Transliteration is a tricky business!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
Iraq, in spite of reports over recent years, is basically a Secularist country

Correction, it WAS. Secularism was allowed to fly under Ba'athism. The power vacuum facilitated by Uncle Saddam's demise now means it is very much the opposite. The various sects in play will do what they can under the guise of religion to serve their interests.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
The point is that Iraqi Airways is not interested in destinations like Dallas Love Field and Houston Hobby Airport and Las Vegas, but in places like London, Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt.

No doubt some shiny new Boeings will be arranged to "help the Iraqi people" enjoy their new freedom. The reality is that BILLIONS in Iraqi money has vanished. By BBC's count 23Billion US$ has either been stolen, lost or is not properly accounted for. Iraq needs every dollar it can get its hands on to rebuild but the chances are good they will be sold on a vanity project of a grand expansion into Europe while other real needs are ignored.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Don't worry Barack Obama is going to go over there and talk to everyone and resolve their differences.

Good thing Georgie left him 8 years of work to do!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 18):
I was being sarcastic as Obama is already showing how ill prepared he is to deal with what is going on.

He is not President yet... mercifully he will be soon. I don't think he's going to be the man who saves the world as many have portrayed him but he will be a step up from Bush the Sequel.

YOWza
 
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:23 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Peatrus gets credit for the Surge. It was his idea, and it made sense. Bush approved it.

Then both get credit. One could not have done it without the other.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
And should YOU not give "credit" to Bush for the incompetence shown up to that time, that made the surge necessary?

As I have several times in different threads. No matter what happens there is a group that won't admit that we are making good progress and that after making the mistake of thinking that the Iraqis would quickly step up to the plate and fend for themselves the President sought to change tempo and direction of the war. Tell me, how many years did Lincoln fight the civil war, losing battle after battle and changing generals, before he finally found one that could do the job? And yet would you call him incompetent?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
And, to go along with that, this damn fool of a conflict in Iraq has led to the Afghan war being in trouble now, because we took men and resources away from that war, which, if you didn't remember, was started because of 9/11.

Explain how putting more boots on the ground is going to do that when AQ and the Taliban have a safe haven to retreat to in Pakistan. People who have made references to Iraq being the new Vietnam completely miss one vital point. In Iraq the insurgents really had no place of guaranteed safety in which to hide. In Afghanistan they do. What you are suggesting, just putting more troops on the ground, is the same thinking that got 500,000 troops into South Vietnam and we still didn't control the country. We beat the enemy every time they showed their heads but never had total security control on the ground. So when you can explain how you are going to seal that border, which is every bit as wild and untamed as the area between what used to be South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, by simply adding more troops fill us in and forward your plan to the Pentagon.
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Dougloid
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:35 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 41):
There is no debating/discussing with people like that. It's pointless. So to answer your question, if I met them, I would simply wish them well in a very quiet, and secluded, private life.

And I have just the place for them. When are you going to post more of your pics, sixty?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attu_Island
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 37):
sometimes transliterated as Falluja, Fallouja

-
there basically is no double L, and the translation of the "U" depends on whether the transliteration is based on English, French or German.
English = Falouja
French = Faloujja
German = Faludscha
Italian = Faluggia

Quoting YOWza (Reply 44):
Looks as if Iraq is becoming independent again.
--
A tad hasty me thinks.

-
Not really. The central government district and the central government palace now back with the Iraqi government and the entrances to that district under Iraqi control is big progress right there, even if admittedly most of all symbolic.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 44):
Correction, it WAS. Secularism was allowed to fly under Ba'athism. The power vacuum facilitated by Uncle Saddam's demise now means it is very much the opposite. The various sects in play will do what they can under the guise of religion to serve their interests.

-
It was so under Osman/Ottoman times and long before the Ba'ath take-over by General Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr (1969) which means between 1920 (when the Brits merged three Turkish provinces in Mesopotamia into IraQ. The USA prohibited the two main secularist parties and dissolved the armed forces. The increased strength of the armed forces, which can be expected to continue, also means a strengthening of the position of the Secularist majority in the country. The religiously-minded parties and movements may better be careful in future as their relative dominance was guarded by the USA against the officer-corps who might have thoughts of their own.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 44):
The point is that Iraqi Airways is not interested in destinations like Dallas Love Field and Houston Hobby Airport and Las Vegas, but in places like London, Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt.
--
No doubt some shiny new Boeings will be arranged

-
AirFrance-KLM, in which the French have a majority will take due care that NOT only shiny Boeings will be arranged !  yes   yes   wave 
 
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yowza
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:17 pm

MEAVNFAN you are more of an optimist than I thought!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
The increased strength of the armed forces, which can be expected to continue, also means a strengthening of the position of the Secularist majority in the country. The religiously-minded parties and movements may better be careful in future as their relative dominance was guarded by the USA against the officer-corps who might have thoughts of their own.

Attrition in Iraq is not only and will not only be between sects and political parties but between Islamists and those that push for secularism, i.e. the military. This is a very common theme around the world, especially in the ME. Given the US's close ties to the Iraqi military this just gives the Islamists/Islamo-facists more fodder. Ever notice how US flags are burned every time Israel uses military hardware (donated by Uncle Sam) in the field. It's not a tough sell I'm afraid. Things have come a long way in Iraq but I wouldn't order the cake just yet. As for the Iraqi military, I'm told by a friend working as private security that they are still short of being a true fighting force. Not to mention the fact that money earmarked to buy them weapons and vehicles keeps disappearing, $2B+ now!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
AirFrance-KLM, in which the French have a majority will take due care that NOT only shiny Boeings will be arranged !

Hahaha no doubt. Actually the French were pretty chummy with Iraq pre Desert Storm - supplying arms, water treatment technology and medical expertise amongst other things.

YOWza
 
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RE: Iraq Becoming Independent Again

Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:10 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 48):
will not only be between sects and political parties but between Islamists and those that push for secularism, i.e. the military

-
To have it with CP-USSR Secretary General J.V. Dshugashvili, "the power comes out of the gun-barrels". It does NOT come out of whatever holy scripts.

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