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Mortyman
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U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:52 pm

US, says hell no !


U.S. Rejected Aid for Israeli Raid on Iranian Nuclear Site


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/11iran.html



Intersting article...
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:51 pm

It's a good thing the US gov't was wise enough to stop this from happening.

If Israel or even the US make the mistake of attacking Iran... it's going to be UGLY for everyone involved especially Israel. They'll simply be opening a can of warms.

Fighting Iran is different than fighting Hamas and Hizbollah.
 
NIKV69
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:52 pm

Makes sense. The US won't have any problem going into Iran but not until they cross the llne.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:08 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
The US won't have any problem going into Iran

I respectfully disagree with your statement. While the US has a solid military, going into Iran will not be as easy as you think... Not to mention that with 2 wars still going on, maybe you should consider that our troops can use a little break from combat. Some soldiers have served over 5 tours of duty since 2001.... I think we can / need sometime off.

Instead of fighting wars overseas... maybe we should fight some problems we have at home (such as the economy)

CO7e7
 
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STT757
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:08 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
US, says hell no !

The "Hell No" quote was specifically in regards to Israel's request for Iraq overflights, the US has fought really hard and spent a tremendous amount of blood and treasure getting Iraq to where it is today. Bush no doubt is going to go down as one of the worst President's in US history, that said though you have to give him credit for the surge when everyone was adamantly opposed. The surge turned Iraq around, and literally snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.

The US controls Iraqi airspace, allowing Israel to overfly Iraq to attack Iran would have caused a tremendous uproar, especially in Iraq with it's huge Shia population. Also Israel just doesn't have the capabilities to really effectively knock out Iran's program.

The secret US program to infiltrate and wreak havoc on Iran's Nuclear program does sound intriguing, as pointed out in the article it must be something substantial as it has Israel convinced enough to suspend (at least temporarily) their attack plans.
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NIKV69
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:31 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 1):
They'll simply be opening a can of warms.

Iran opened that can a long time ago.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 3):
I respectfully disagree with your statement. While the US has a solid military, going into Iran will not be as easy as you think... Not to mention that with 2 wars still going on, maybe you should consider that our troops can use a little break from combat. Some soldiers have served over 5 tours of duty since 2001.... I think we can / need sometime off.

Instead of fighting wars overseas... maybe we should fight some problems we have at home (such as the economy)

Come on we don't need the CNN soundbyte board here as well do we? Our economy and the fact Iran wants to reduce Isreal to dust is two totally different things. Obama has already been on record saying Iran will not be allowed to develop nuclear weapons so if they push us what are we going to do? I think the fact that Isreal has decided it is time to fight and not sit back anymore has told us all that if Iran doesn't wise up it will be on. If Iran steps over the line we will have no choice. You forget that these radicals want people dead and will not stop. So we can't make excuses that are soldiers are tired or our economy stinks. Isreal has taken the lead in the fight for their right to live. This is hardball, not softball.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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OA260
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:43 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 3):
I respectfully disagree with your statement. While the US has a solid military, going into Iran will not be as easy as you think..

Quite true. Iraq will look like a walk in the park if the USA goes into Iran. It would be another Vietnam. Thousands of American troops would come back with the flag draped over them.

Is this a sacrifice the American people are willing to make?
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:50 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
Iran opened that can a long time ago.

When was that?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
Our economy and the fact Iran wants to reduce Isreal to dust is two totally different things.

If Iran wants to reduce Israel to dust, why is it America's problem? Why doen't Israel defend itself without the US support for ONCE in their lifetime?
 
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STT757
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear

Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:10 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
Our economy and the fact Iran wants to reduce Isreal to dust is two totally different things.

Actually they are related, I guess you didn't notice that gas prices have spiked back up due to the Israeli incursions into Gaza. Start another war in that region and oil prices will make $4.00 a gallon look cheap, the spike in oil prices over the last 18-24 months was the spark that ignited the economic crisis we find ourselves in. It directly lead to the housing crisis which lead to the foreclosure crisis which caused the credit crisis etc..

You start a third war and you will literally plunge our economy into not a Recession but a Depression, Iran, Venezuela and even Russia to some extent realize which is why they feel emboldened and are goading us to do something stupid.

There will be time to address these issues, but not now. Finish up in Iraq, get Afghanistan under control and bring the US economy back onto solid ground. If the Obama administration is smart (which I have faith they are) they will be able to hurt Iran, Russia and Venezuela much more than combat would. Get us off their oil, find alternatives. Killing Iran, Russia and Venezuela's Golden goose would do more than killing their soldiers would, and if we're smart we can profit greatly from these new energy technologies.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:19 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
Quite true. Iraq will look like a walk in the park if the USA goes into Iran. It would be another Vietnam. Thousands of American troops would come back with the flag draped over them.

Is this a sacrifice the American people are willing to make?

Crippling Iran's nuclear capability would not require a ground invasion or occupation. If the U.S. or Israel were to do anything, it would be to hammer Iran from the air. Yes, it could be costly. As costly as a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv?

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 3):
Instead of fighting wars overseas... maybe we should fight some problems we have at home (such as the economy)

That doesn't mean we can bury our heads in the sand and hope that belligerent regimes don't obtain nuclear weapons.
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:23 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):

 checkmark  Very well said....

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
You start a third war and you will literally plunge our economy into not a Recession but a Depression

Some people think going to war is a fairly inexpensive deal... It's not, it never has been and never will be.

In 2008 2 million Americans lost their jobs. This makes the economy the # 1 issue going into 2009 with the new administration. Unless Iran attacks the US, we should NOT go to war with them... especially if it's for the sake of bailing out Israel.

Just my opinion....
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:32 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
US, says hell no !

U.S. Rejected Aid for Israeli Raid on Iranian Nuclear Site

The W. Bush administration will be out very soon.
I wonder if the new Obama administration will change this and decide to launch an attack on Iran at some point or other.

Change you can believe in?  Confused
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:37 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
That doesn't mean we can bury our heads in the sand and hope that belligerent regimes don't obtain nuclear weapons

I understand that, and I agree with it... However, we DO NOT need to go to a 3rd war to stop this.

Why can't someone else deal with it? Why not try diplomacy? Why is it that our country has to be the world police??

We have sacrificed a lot of young American men and women for the sake of the world... maybe it's time for someone else to man up.
 
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OA260
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:43 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Yes, it could be costly. As costly as a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv?

The repercussions could be as bad if not worse . It could cause a World War like never seen before.
 
jutes85
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:01 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
Why can't someone else deal with it? Why not try diplomacy?

Israel has offered to deal with it but the US denied them this right. Diplomacy isn't working and the loony tunes in Iran are continuing their quest to get a nuclear weapon. They only want one.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
We have sacrificed a lot of young American men and women for the sake of the world... maybe it's time for someone else to man up.

Sake of the world? Hmm, lets see, Afganistan was a US lead coalition which have seen deaths not just on the US side. Invading Iraq was your own fault and did the world no favours whatsoever. No other country wants a billion dollar defence budget, we have other problems to deal with. If you want to be the police of the world, then so be it, but be prepared to be on the front lines of any major conflict in the future. You don't put so much money into developing weapons and aircraft to let them sit in the desert and rot.

The only thing Iran has going for them is numbers in troops. It's a long march to Israel and Irans aircraft and pilots aren't exactly a match for the IAF.
nothing
 
Leezyjet
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:08 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
You forget that these radicals want people dead and will not stop.

And when was the last time Iran invaded anywhere and killed thousands of citizens - can the US say the same ?. Your judging a whole nation as a bunch of Radicals, based on what, some report you once saw on the news. Had it ever crossed your mind that Iran and it's citizens might actually be a peace loving country, just run by someone with a big mouth, a bit like the US is some respects one could say....and it is always those that shout the loudest that get heard and reported.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Yes, it could be costly. As costly as a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv?

I don't even think the Iranians would be stupid enough to try that. All any country with Nukes wants is to be able to defend themselves incase they are attacked by another county with Nukes - why should Iran be any different - but the best thing would be for all countries with them to agree to destroy them all - as studies have shown, nobody can win a Nuclear war, so why not put the money to better uses istead ?.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
Why not try diplomacy?

Exactly, diplomacy is THE only way to resolve problems, get both sides talking and reach a compromise that is acceptable for both sides. As the British Government found out with the NI situation, trying to be big and macho and saying that you will never negotiate with terrorists just doesn't work - 40 odd years of terrorism came to an end in a few years of talks and now both sides are happy and NI is at last a peaceful place - so much so that the British Army have almost totally withdrawn. The US could learn alot from that and try talking with Iran and even Al Q'uida and work to resolve the problems in a peaceful way - I'm no peace loving hippy BTW but there has to be a better way than blowing the crap out of each other - who really wins then ?.

 Smile
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NIKV69
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:11 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
Is this a sacrifice the American people are willing to make?

Maybe should you ask the Jewish Americans how they feel.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 7):
When was that?

Many times, maybe when the President said something along the lines of wiping them off the map, which is a sentiment not exclusive to Iran.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 7):
If Iran wants to reduce Israel to dust, why is it America's problem? Why doen't Israel defend itself without the US support for ONCE in their lifetime?

Isreal is an ally and would probably not have any issue going in without us but if we have to disarm Iran in a hurry which benefits many it would be better to do it quickly.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Crippling Iran's nuclear capability would not require a ground invasion or occupation. If the U.S. or Israel were to do anything, it would be to hammer Iran from the air. Yes, it could be costly. As costly as a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv?

 checkmark 

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
That doesn't mean we can bury our heads in the sand and hope that belligerent regimes don't obtain nuclear weapons.

LOL, belligerent is being generous.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 11):
The W. Bush administration will be out very soon.
I wonder if the new Obama administration will change this and decide to launch an attack on Iran at some point or other.

Change you can believe in?

You know that "change we can believe in" is a campaign slogan right? Obama just said that to get the votes needed to win at any cost. Which he accomplished. Now that he is in over his head he has to do something prudent which is why he said Iran will not be allowed to develop nuclear arms. Kind of sounds familiar doesn't it? The countries are going to test him as soon as he gets into office. He better lose the rhetoric and grow a pair. You can see Isreal didn't wait to see what he would do.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
I understand that, and I agree with it... However, we DO NOT need to go to a 3rd war to stop this.

Where have you been the last 30 years? Radical Islam doesn't understand anything but force. They don't want to talk they want Allah and Islam to be the only belief in the world. They want Isreal gone, dead whatever and they are never going to think any differently so what do you suggest?

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
Why not try diplomacy

Won't work.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
Why is it that our country has to be the world police??

We have sacrificed a lot of young American men and women for the sake of the world... maybe it's time for someone else to man up.

Should we have just stayed out of WWII as well and let Hitler and Japan just run amuck? Why did we fight in that war? Who else is going to man up?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:14 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
Why can't someone else deal with it? Why not try diplomacy? Why is it that our country has to be the world police??

1. Very few nations are even capable of striking Iran effectively.
2. Of course diplomatic negotiations have been attempted. Iran refuses to negotiate with the nature of their nuclear programs.
3. We're not the world police, we just have more interests and more enemies than most due to our status as a superpower. There are plenty of conflicts where the U.S. hasn't intervened with military force.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
We have sacrificed a lot of young American men and women for the sake of the world... maybe it's time for someone else to man up.

I agree, but this is a classic example of free riding. If Nation A knows that Nation B is capable (and thus likely) to take action unilaterally, the incentive to work together is diminished.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
The repercussions could be as bad if not worse . It could cause a World War like never seen before.

A situation which (although highly unlikely) could also happen if we do nothing and Iran starts a conflict. The question is: if confrontation is inevitable, would you rather confront a nuclear Iran or a non-nuclear Iran. Iran has repeatedly refused to negotiate on their nuclear programs and they openly support the obliteration of a certain neighboring state. The latter is not just "rhetoric" since they provide assistance to the groups who are attacking Israel right now.
 
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OA260
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:32 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Maybe should you ask the Jewish Americans how they feel.

Is America just Jewish ? What about Catholic Americans/Sikh Americans/Muslim Americans/
Hispanic Americans/Asian Americans and so on . America is not just one community you know . All these communities have an equal say in policy and make sacrifices.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):
would you rather confront a nuclear Iran or a non-nuclear Iran.

Well I dont want to see Iran get nuclear weapons but Id prefer a majority vote of International countries rather than an Iraq situation. Id rather other countries stand up and be counted so that Iran could see how many countries were opposed to them then they couldnt blame just a few countries.

The whole Nuclear issue seems to be absent from the news these days for obvious reasons but there does not seem to be much diplomatic pressure by the international community so far.

One thing for sure it will be interesting to see how Obama handles this.
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:32 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 14):
Israel has offered to deal with it but the US denied them this right

Becuase it involves IAF flying over Iraqi airspace (or some other middle eastern country)... now the problem is, who has the authority to allow this to happen? The US or Iraq?
Iraq is now trying to work things out with Iran, so I don't think the Iraqis are going to allow the Israelis to use their airspace to attack Iran.
On the other hand, if the US allows Israel to use Iraqi airspace, then the whole argument of Iraq becoming a soverign independant state because nothing but BS.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Maybe should you ask the Jewish Americans how they feel

Why?? Jewish Americans are 2.5% of the US population... what about the opinion of the other 97.5% ??

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
maybe when the President said something along the lines of wiping them off the map,

He does not have the balls to do that. Seeing that Israel has arabs living in it and arab countries surrounding it. He won't be killing Israeli... but "fellow muslims".. if that means anything to him...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Isreal is an ally and would probably not have any issue going in without us but if we have to disarm Iran in a hurry which benefits many it would be better to do it quickly.

Yes they would. Israel was unable to defeat Hizbolla, and now after 16 days of fighting Hamas, they were unable to stop the rockets on Sdirot and other southern towns...

You really think Israel can take on Iran without US support?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Who else is going to man up?

That's the milion dollar question!
 
NIKV69
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:50 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 20):
Why?? Jewish Americans are 2.5% of the US population... what about the opinion of the other 97.5% ??

Source? That figure seems a little off.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 20):
He does not have the balls to do that. Seeing that Israel has arabs living in it and arab countries surrounding it. He won't be killing Israeli... but "fellow muslims".. if that means anything to him...

You know this how?

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 20):
Yes they would. Israel was unable to defeat Hizbolla, and now after 16 days of fighting Hamas, they were unable to stop the rockets on Sdirot and other southern towns...

You really think Israel can take on Iran without US support?

Not a question about that. These aren't homemade rockets shot out of someone's backyard. Once nuclear weapons are involved it becomes everyone's problem.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 20):
That's the Million dollar question.

Not really. Obama knows if Isreal wants or help or not if Iran needs some sort of armed conflict either in the air or ground we will lend a hand.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:01 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
Source? That figure seems a little off.

Jewish Virtual Library... It's actually 2.2%
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
You know this how?

Let's just say from personal experience.. I was born and raised in Israel and I lived there for about 25 years and I still have family in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv. But again, that's my personal observation/opinion... I could be wrong.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:03 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
This is hardball, not softball.

this just illustrates why Bin Laden loves people like you, so much!

encourage your govt to start another war in the middle east and see what happens...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Many times, maybe when the President said something along the lines of wiping them off the map, which is a sentiment not exclusive to Iran.

no, he said the wipe the regime off the map, the Iranian President has NO power at all, its just talk.

[Edited 2009-01-11 13:09:30]
 
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OA260
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:17 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 21):
Jewish Virtual Library... It's actually 2.2%

Thanks for the clarification. Its alot less than I thought. Someone was certainly excluding quite alot of other ethnic groups  Wink
 
jutes85
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 19):
You really think Israel can take on Iran without US support?

Without using nuclear weapons, yes. I don't think that Iran has the balls to face Israel one vs one in a modern military war. If Israel were to attack Iran's nuclear installations, Iran would undoubtedly back down, just like Iraq did. They know they can't get it's army within 1000km's of the Israeli border and fighting Israel in the sky would be a turkey shoot. This is all assuming that the US does nothing and backs off militarily because most of the AA fighting would be over Iraq.
nothing
 
Kiwirob
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:38 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
Iran opened that can a long time ago.

You've got to be kidding, the only reason why Iran wants nukes is because Israel has them, now if the world forced Israel to disarm and Iran kept it program then it would be different.
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:53 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 24):
I don't think that Iran has the balls to face Israel one vs one in a modern military war.

How do you know that? Have you seen the Iranians at war? I haven't so I don't know.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 24):
They know they can't get it's army within 1000km's of the Israeli border

If Israel were to attack Iran, do you trust that Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria will stand on Israel's side and prevent the Iranians from getting close?

I don't think anyone can trust Syria and Lebanon... Unlike Jordan and Egypt, Syria and Lebanon don't have any kind of agreement / diplomatic relationship with Israel..
 
jutes85
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 26):
If Israel were to attack Iran, do you trust that Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria will stand on Israel's side and prevent the Iranians from getting close?

They won't have to. If Iran wants to invade Israel they will have to do it by foot..that is a long hike through the desert. Only thing that I'm uncertain of is what Iraq will do if they see thousands of Iranians marching/rolling through their country. So if a ground war is unlikely, the other option for Iran to attack Israel is through the air, which will be very costly for the Iranians. Their air force isn't exactly in the best of shape if they manage to get any aircraft off the ground. Unless there is something else that I'm missing, I don't think that an Israeli air strike would incur a large retaliation from Iran. From what I've seen in the past, the Middle-eastern countries/armies like to talk big, but cower away and hide when it comes to battle.
nothing
 
CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:35 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 27):

That makes sense.
 
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Moose135
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:47 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Should we have just stayed out of WWII as well and let Hitler and Japan just run amuck?

That's exactly what we did until December 7, 1941. Until US territory was attacked, we supported our allies with weapons and materials, but we did not actively participate in the war. Only after we were attacked did we declare war on Japan. Germany and Italy declared war on the US following that.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
cairo
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:12 am



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 7):
If Iran wants to reduce Israel to dust, why is it America's problem?

Great Question !!! In practical terms, this scenario would do nothing to the US.

Why is a basic question not asked more often, "Why is America even involved so heavily with Israel?"

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 14):
but the US denied them this right.

Hahahahahaha. How, excactly did the US "deny" Israel's "right" to attack another country?

You mean the US told Israel it wouldn't support such an attack, and for once the US putting it's own interests first is somehow a denial of Israeli rights ????

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Maybe should you ask the Jewish Americans how they feel.

In all seriousness, why should so much emphasis be placed on the opinion of a such a tiny minority?

The CIA says they are 1.7% of America
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#People

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Should we have just stayed out of WWII as well and let Hitler and Japan just run amuck?

Hitler, Japan, the Soviet Union, China and one or two others have had the very serious potential to damage to the US. Iran does not. Iraq did not. This is a question of priorities: the Iranian threat to the US is relatively low compared to all the problems America faces, domestic and international.

Ever wonder why America is content to let half of Africa continue in civil war and suffer thousands of innocent lives lost in wars every week? No threat to the US....

Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
All these communities have an equal say in policy and make sacrifices.

They should, you mean. Under Bush, the government was dominated by an amazing cadre of pro-Israeli figures and PNAC members who put the interests of Israel before America.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Once nuclear weapons are involved it becomes everyone's problem.

No, it doesn't, but thanks for the scare tactics. The Iranians will be lucky to put together one or a small handful of weapons with zero ability to harm America.

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 29):
Only after we were attacked

The Israelis would be happy to put together a false flag operation, like they did with the USS Liberty, in order to get Americans behind their cause after an "attack".

Cairo
 
seb146
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:19 am



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 15):
Had it ever crossed your mind that Iran and it's citizens might actually be a peace loving country, just run by someone with a big mouth, a bit like the US is some respects one could say....and it is always those that shout the loudest that get heard and reported.

Hear hear! It really bothers me when I hear news reports about "Iran said..." and "The United States said..." Don't speak for me. What Bush and his council say does not represent what I want or believe. The same with Iran. When Ahmadenijad (sp?) makes an anti-American statement or taunt towards the United States and the West, I believe it is him and the few clerics that are running the country not every single individual in Iran.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 12):
Why not try diplomacy

Won't work.

And that ends that discussion? Why won't diplomacy work? Because 10 men or so inside Iran decide so? The Iranian people are not happy with the supreme council (I forget the name). They are also very proud of their nation. They would much rather stage their own revolution than have foreign fighters on their soil telling them what to do, where to go, and how to act. How would Americans feel if China or Russia simply invaded because of percieved anti-Chinese or anti-Russian sentament? Americans would be P*SSED!!! Every single American would take up arms in any way shape or form to kick out the foreign fighters. Same in Iran. Add to that, the fact that the world would then turn it's back on the United States if they invaded Iran, and there is no way that would happen.

This is one of the few smart things Bush II has done.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Should we have just stayed out of WWII as well and let Hitler and Japan just run amuck? Why did we fight in that war?

Well, considering Japan attacked United States military in Hawaii and Germany declared war on the Untied States, you are really comparing apples and oranges. Has Iran declared war on the United States? Has Iran attacked the United States?
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Aaron747
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:20 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Isreal is an ally and would probably not have any issue going in without us but if we have to disarm Iran in a hurry which benefits many it would be better to do it quickly.

Israel betrayed our mutual interests when they refused to put a stop to the settlement issue once and for all, and they betrayed it further when they sold American defense know-how to China. Israel is like most countries receiving US aid - inconsistent. We're all the more dumb for it. Friends can't be bought, period.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):

Maybe should you ask the Jewish Americans how they feel.

OK here's the opinion of one: Israel gets too much support from the United States in light of what we get in return. Except for the most rabid Zionists, most of us consider ourselves Americans first. I want only the best for Israel, especially for friends and relatives there, but that support stops when Israeli policy harms my country.
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:11 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 25):
(1) You've got to be kidding, (2) the only reason why Iran wants nukes is because Israel has them, (3) now if the world forced Israel to disarm and Iran kept it program then it would be different.

1. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  Yeah sure

2. That may be a (singular) reason, but not the only (solitary) reason. And ask yourself why Iran wants the same nuclear protection as Israel. At best, so they can engage in more blatant antagonism of Isreal without fear of significant retribution, at worst so they can "drive Israel into the sea." Either way, a net subtraction to peace in the Middle East, which should disturb anyone with a vested interest in the region (that's most of us).

3. The destabilizing action here is Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, not Israel holding them peacefully as they have for the last ~30 years. Asking a stable nation with a history of facing overwhelming outside invasion to disarm a nuclear program they have never used is insulting. Ask France to disarm while you're at it, see how well that goes.
 
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viaggiare
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:35 am

The Iranians are less interested in building a nuclear weapon than in having the United States (and Israel) believe they are building one.

Israel has already concluded that Iran is 2-5 years from developing a nuclear device (as opposed to a deliverable weapon) anyway, thus reducing the likelihood of an airstrike anytime soon.
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:39 am



Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 21):
Let's just say from personal experience.. I was born and raised in Israel and I lived there for about 25 years and I still have family in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv. But again, that's my personal observation/opinion... I could be wrong.

Fact is you have no idea what he is capable of but what is known is he like Hamas and Hezbollah is that they want Isreal not to exist.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 22):
this just illustrates why Bin Laden loves people like you, so much!

encourage your govt to start another war in the middle east and see what happens...

Monty we are not encouraging anyone to do anything. We are trying to stop anyone in Iran or any other Islamic country from killing people in Isreal or in the US or anywhere for that matter. Bin Laden hates anyone who doesn't agree with his fanatical view of Islam. He hates that any non Islamic person is even in Saudi Arabia or anywhere he feels is holy land for Islam. He hates us because we support Isreal's right to exist because of his view of Isreal's occupation of Palestine etc. Iran is not going to be allowed to have a nuke. We don't want a war in the middle east but if Isreal going into Gaza has taugh us anything is that they aren't going to take it anymore and I support them a hundred percent. If you want to paint them and us as war mongers go right ahead but the fault lies in Islamic world where not only the radicals but most don't feel Isreal has the right to breathe and will do anything to see that come to pass. We are going to help Isreal until the violence stops and the radicals can sit down and discuss who can live where and who can have what. Until then this is what we will have.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 22):
no, he said the wipe the regime off the map, the Iranian President has NO power at all, its just talk.

Has no power? Just talk? Monty these people all believe no member of Isreal should be allowed anywhere near where they are. Your being pretty naive.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 24):
Without using nuclear weapons, yes. I don't think that Iran has the balls to face Israel one vs one in a modern military war.

Which is why everyone doesn't want Iran to develop a nuke they can use.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 25):
You've got to be kidding, the only reason why Iran wants nukes is because Israel has them, now if the world forced Israel to disarm and Iran kept it program then it would be different.

Oh please, everyone knows that if Hamas, Hezbollah and AQ stopped killing people Isreal's nukes would sit there and collect dust.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 30):
In all seriousness, why should so much emphasis be placed on the opinion of a such a tiny minority?

Well maybe because no matter how many of them live here they still are Americans and more importantly human beings. How can you be so selfish? What would we do if radical Islam decided they hated Ireland or Italy and began bombing them? We going to take a poll of how many live here in the US? If they asked us for help?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 30):
Hitler, Japan, the Soviet Union, China and one or two others have had the very serious potential to damage to the US. Iran does not. Iraq did not. This is a question of priorities: the Iranian threat to the US is relatively low compared to all the problems America faces, domestic and international.

Well I guess 3000 civilians dying on the sidewalk may not rank high in your book compared to what happened in a world war but I think our government should take precautions to make sure we don't have to have any fatalities at the hands of radical Islam. If that means getting aggresive with Iran when it comes to developing a nuclear weapon I am all for it.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 30):
No, it doesn't, but thanks for the scare tactics. The Iranians will be lucky to put together one or a small handful of weapons with zero ability to harm America.

Where are the scare tactics? How do you know what Iran can or can't build?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
And that ends that discussion? Why won't diplomacy work? Because 10 men or so inside Iran decide so

Where did you get that figure? You have inside knowledge of Iran?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
They would much rather stage their own revolution than have foreign fighters on their soil telling them what to do

Again where are you getting this info? Just like most of Palestine hates Hamas? Come on already the anti-Isreal sentiment runs deep in the Islamic community. If the people are against their government's actions so much maybe they should do something though I don't feel this is the case.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
Well, considering Japan attacked United States military in Hawaii and Germany declared war on the Untied States, you are really comparing apples and oranges. Has Iran declared war on the United States? Has Iran attacked the United States?

They don't conduct themselves like countries did in the 1940's. Do you really think Bin Laden would? Keep this in context.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
Israel betrayed our mutual interests when they refused to put a stop to the settlement issue once and for all

I never said Isreal was totally clean in this, sure there has to be discussions about who took too much land etc but to just keep launching rockets and killing people.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
OK here's the opinion of one: Israel gets too much support from the United States in light of what we get in return. Except for the most rabid Zionists, most of us consider ourselves Americans first. I want only the best for Israel, especially for friends and relatives there, but that support stops when Israeli policy harms my country

I agree but again talks can't start till the suicide bombs stop and someone without a radical view of Islam can talk with Isreal. Until then we will have what we have now.
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CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:00 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
Fact is you have no idea what he is capable of but what is known is he like Hamas and Hezbollah is that they want Isreal not to exist.

Like you know what he's capable of !!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
I never said Isreal was totally clean in this, sure there has to be discussions about who took too much land etc but to just keep launching rockets and killing people

How many people have the rockets killed? Give me a number.
 
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:33 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
what is known is he like Hamas and Hezbollah is that they want Isreal not to exist.

This keeps coming up. Despite the fact that it is pure rhetoric. I could find you numbers of extreme Zionists who still reckon that 'Israel' should stretch from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates.

All the Arab countries, AND Hamas, have indicated that they will recognise Israel if it withdraws to the 1967 boundaries. The reason why 'negotiations' never get anywhere is that, up to the present time, any Israeli politician who even talked about doing that would be committing political suicide with the Israeli voters.

So Israeli politicians only 'tell the truth' about the concessions that Israel should (must) eventually make once it is clear that their political careers are over; as Olmert did just the other month:-

(Excerpts)

"Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in remarks published Monday that Israel would have to withdraw from East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights if it was serious about making peace with the Palestinians and Syria.

"In an interview with the Yedioth Aharonoth daily, Olmert said that as a hard-line politician for decades he had not been prepared to look at reality in all of its depth.

-------------------------

"First and foremost, we must make a decision. I'd like to see if there is one serious person in the State of Israel who believes it is possible to make peace with the Syrians without eventually giving up the Golan Heights."

-------------------------

"According to Western and Palestinian officials, Olmert has proposed in peace talks with the Palestinians an Israeli withdrawal from some 93 percent of the West Bank, plus all of the Gaza Strip, from which Israel pulled out in 2005.

"It is true that an agreement with Syria comes with danger," he said. "Those who want to act with zero danger should move to Switzerland."

------------------------

"A peace agreement, Olmert has said, would mean Israel would have to compensate the Palestinians for the land it hopes to retain by "close to a 1-to-1 ratio."

"In exchange for the settlement enclaves, Olmert has proposed about a 5 percent land swap giving the Palestinians a desert territory adjacent to the Gaza Strip, as well as land on which to build a transit corridor between Gaza and the West Bank.

"He has so far put off negotiations on sharing Jerusalem and ruled out a so-called "right of return" for Palestinian refugees, a central Palestinian demand. On both issues, there is strong opposition in Israel to significant concessions."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1025411.html

For the record, my personal view is that even those concessions don't go far enough. Not for political or religious reasons but for economic and geographical ones. Israel and the Palestinian 'reservations' are simply too small and under-resourced ever to achieve economic stability on their own. And even if 'peace' was achieved, I'm sure that things would be organised so that the Palestinians received much less than their fair share of resources, particularly water. And, in addition the 'timebomb' of religious discrimination within Israel itself, treating Israeli Arabs very much as second-class citizens, would go on ticking.

So I suppose that you could say that I too hope that one day Israel will 'cease to exist.' In the sense that the two communities are combined into a single federated state, committed to freedom of religion and equal rights for all, as originally laid down by the UN in 1947.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cairo
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:38 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
How can you be so selfish?

It's not selfish to suggest opinions should only be given as much weight as the number of people who hold that opinion. It's democratic, that's all I'm advocating. A small but wealthy minority was overly influential under Bush and you went so far as to support this by implying that the views of 2% of America should be important to US foreign policy.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
What would we do if radical Islam decided they hated Ireland or Italy and began bombing them? We going to take a poll of how many live here in the US?

Ireland and Italy have nothing to worry about because they don't kill Muslims every month in numbers 10x as large as the deaths caused by "Islamic Terrorism"...the way Israel and the US do. Also, Ireland and Italy weren't created in 1947 in an area previously known as "Palestine," therefore have no serious contention as to who is the rightful government over their land. However, just to play along with your hypothetical, yes, the costs and benefits of helping Ireland or Italy should be weighed along with the opinions of Americans before America started propping them up against the opinion of the entire world.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
Well I guess 3000 civilians dying on the sidewalk

...plus another 500 or so since the US became a terrorist target = about 3500 Americans dead at the hands of Islamic terrorists over the 60 year history of Israel.

...compared to 17,000 dead EVERY YEAR on the streets of America at the hands of other Americans murdered
....compared to 13,000 dead EVERY YEAR on the streets of America at the hands of other Americans in drunk driving fatalities

Did you ever stop to think that maybe trying to save some small percentage of the 30,000 Americans who die every year at the hands of other Americans was a better investment than worrying about Israel and the Muslims half a world away?

- get your priorities in order!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 35):
Where are the scare tactics? How do you know what Iran can or can't build?

Don't have any clue what Iran can build. Based on Bush's record in this area I'd say the threat was overblown. In any event, the point is....Iran gets nukes....so what?

Cairo
 
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:12 am



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 14):
denied them this right.

What right? Israel asked for permission, the United States denied. There is no violation of any rights whatsoever... The U.S. will not always support Israel on every single thing they do. They are two separate countries.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
OK here's the opinion of one: Israel gets too much support from the United States in light of what we get in return. Except for the most rabid Zionists, most of us consider ourselves Americans first. I want only the best for Israel, especially for friends and relatives there, but that support stops when Israeli policy harms my country.

I can't agree more with that statement. Look at all the political, military, and financial support Israel gets from the United States. But Israel is not part of the U.S. and the U.S. will have to protect its interests and its citizens first.
 
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:32 am

Why> Why? Why would the US say no to attacking a known enemy's nuclear site!? If I was in Israel's place I would be bombing the h3ll out of Iran and Gaza in order to stop the flow of weapons to Gaza and Hamas
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:51 am



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 40):
Why> Why? Why would the US say no to attacking a known enemy's nuclear site!? If I was in Israel's place I would be bombing the h3ll out of Iran and Gaza in order to stop the flow of weapons to Gaza and Hamas

Then thank God you are not in charge Israeli's attacks. Firstly, Israel asked permission from the United States - and the United States refused. Attacking Iran would have severe consequences - they are sure to retaliate. And can you imagine what that would do to the images of the United States and Israel? They are losing enough support already with the current Gaza conflict. I don't think you have ANY idea what attacking Iran means, and what would happen. The consequences could be catastrophic.

The situation in the Middle East is messy enough. Add in a U.S. approved and sponsored Israeli raid on Iran and you'll get hell.
 
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear

Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:10 am



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 40):
Why would the US say no to attacking a known enemy's nuclear site!? If I was in Israel's place I would be bombing the h3ll out of Iran and Gaza in order to stop the flow of weapons to Gaza and Hamas

Because we got rid of Saddam for them at tremendous cost of blood and treasure on our own, and all the gains so hard won by US troops making tremendous sacrifices over the past six years would be lost as soon as word hit the streets of Iraq that Israeli war planes overflew their country on the way to attack Iran and that the US allowed them since the US is in control of Iraqi airspace.

We have a tremendous vested interest in seeing Iraq succeed whether we (Americans) like it or not, if protecting our investment in Iraq means the Israelis don't get to bomb Iran well that's one of the unforeseen consequences of the US invasion of Iraq. For better or for worse the opinions of Iraqis now matter to the US, and if they are truly to become an Allie of the US as everyone in Washington and Baghdad constantly state well then obviously there are going to be some ruffled feathers.
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:25 am



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 40):
If I was in Israel's place I would be bombing the h3ll out of Iran and Gaza in order to stop the flow of weapons to Gaza and Hamas

doing so would toss away any thing influence we have gained in the area out the window and fan the flames of fanaticism on all side of this? The answer to the situation is not a simple as "bombing the h3ll" out of them. simply bombing the hell (real word used) out of most things usually results in the target of said bombing to try to bomb the hell out of something that you have. The answer to this situation it complex, complex enough for me to say that I do not have the answers to even begin to put forth a plan of action.


The results of such action would be vast, from the loss of life on all sides to the the stress this would put on all fronts of the global economic systems

IHAP
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CO7e7
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:38 am



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 40):
If I was in Israel's place I would be bombing the h3ll out of Iran and Gaza in order to stop the flow of weapons to Gaza and Hamas

Interesting... Bomb Iran's nuclear sites in order to stop the alleged flow of "AK-47s" to Gaza!!

How do you know that Iran is supporting Hamas?

I'm really interested in knowing your answer.
 
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RE: U.S. Rejected Israeli Raid On Iranian Nuclear Site

Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:05 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Many times, maybe when the President said something along the lines of wiping them off the map, which is a sentiment not exclusive to Iran.

Source? You are ptretty keen to ask for sources. Just to help you:
http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/
His current blog contains no mention of maps.
His website
http://www.president.ir/eng/
briefly did but does no longer. As one member explained at length, ascribing his use of map in relation to Israel is a mistake in translation. What he says in essence is that the state of Israel should not have been plonked down in Arab lands in 1948. Which is probably correct, it was asking for trouble. What he then goes on to suggest is that therefore it should not now exist.
This extension is more problematic as it does exist. Although if you follow these threads carefully enough, you might be aware by now that a demographic time bomb is ticking which may well mean that the days of a Jewish state as at present are numbered. Most of those in Israel are acutely aware of this, perhaps the news should be more widely know?
So either tell us where and when Ahmad proposed to wipe Israel off the map, or do stop posting this bsuiness about wiping off maps.

And no, a western mistranslation will not do.

PS, there is even a whole wiki entry on the error:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
Many news sources repeated the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) statement that Ahmadinejad had demanded that "Israel must be wiped off the map",[5][6] an English idiom which means to "cause a place to stop existing",[7] or to "obliterate totally",[8] or "destroy completely".[9]

Ahmadinejad's phrase was " بايد از صفحه روزگار �...حو شود " according to the text published on the President's Office's website.[10]

According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[11]

According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian". Instead, "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."[12

Tut tut, you cannot say wipe of the map in Persian, and we know Ahdmadinejad has perfect English.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 37):
All the Arab countries, AND Hamas, have indicated that they will recognise Israel if it withdraws to the 1967 boundaries.

Much along the lines of the above and tedious explanation, is there any way that as soon as someone posts the words Hamas and Charter within 80 characters of each other, Nav's sentence automatically comes up as a qualifier? A bit like autocorrect in Word????  angel 

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