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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:56 am

Installment 8 of this discussion, which may be found here:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2030179/

has reached its critical length. Please continue the discussion here.
Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
 
cairo
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:37 am

Have many of you visited

http://citizensbriefingbook.change.gov/home
?

It is Obama's way of hearing what issues are important to the people...allegedly anyway.

Doing a search for threads on Israel, Gaza, etc... is quite instructive. This thread is typical and the most popular on the subject:
http://citizensbriefingbook.change.g.../viewIdea.apexp?id=087800000004lmt

Cairo
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:39 am

Israeli Cabinet prepares for cease-fire vote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090117/...on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

I guess that's the good news (coincidence now that their good old Texas buddy will be changing jobs?). If you read in the article however, there is yet another disturbing report ...

"In Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, Palestinian health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said an Israeli tank shell killed a woman and a boy and wounded 25 others when it landed near a U.N. school. Near Gaza City, Palestinian officials said three more civilians were killed by a naval shell.

The Israeli military had no immediate comment on the reports.

United Nations spokesman Chris Gunness condemned the shelling attack, saying the the school was crowded with 1,600 people who had sought shelter from Israel's three-week offensive in Gaza. He said the compound took several direct hits and confirmed that two people died."

another attack on the evil UN ...
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:43 am



Quoting Cairo (Reply 1):
Doing a search for threads on Israel, Gaza, etc... is quite instructive. This thread is typical and the most popular on the subject:
http://citizensbriefingbook.change.g...04lmt

Very interesting read. Gives me hope that all is not lost and that the USA foreign policy might just take a turn for the better. If anyone can lead policy down the right road to democracy and morality Obama can.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:45 am

As usual, our World News is first with the story.

The most heart-breaking video I've seen yet about the Gaza blitz.

Anyon who doesn't find the sight of that Palestinian doctor - working in an Israeli hospital - absolutely heartbreaking, please tell us. And tell us also how you can BEAR watching things like that, just for 'politics'.......

Three daughters killed and, by the look of it, the fourth one blinded........

http://player.sbs.com.au/naca/#/naca/wna/Latest/playlist/Gaza-latest/
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:17 pm

And here's the next 'incident':-

"GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli tank fire killed two boys at a U.N.-run school in the northern Gaza Strip Saturday, not six people as previously reported, a U.N. official said.

"An Israeli army spokesman said he was checking the report.

"Adnan Abu Hasna, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), said two brothers had been killed and 14 people had been wounded, including the boys' mother, when Israeli tank fire hit a school run by UNRWA in the northern town of Beit Lahiya."


http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE50G0X720090117

Years back, I was actually taught to direct artillery fire, and even airstrikes. I therefore know how inaccurate they are likely to be, especially the first few rounds.

But at least I'd have known that if I'd missed through carelessness, and hit civilians, I'd have faced an enquiry, or even a court-martial.

And that the guys coming at me would probably have been the whole Red Army, who had (at the time) far better weapons than we had.

Not some poor, half-trained, deluded kid with a Kalashnikov and maybe 20 rounds of ammunition...........there are plenty of other ways of dealing with people like that.

[Edited 2009-01-17 04:23:25]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:27 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
And here's the next 'incident':-

The UN-run facilities seem to have been suffered many "incidents" lately ... but of course, Israel takes great care in keeping civilians out of this  no 
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:38 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
The UN-run facilities seem to have been suffered many "incidents" lately

May be just a mixup, EZEIZA  Smile. Vaguely possible that 'UN' in the Hebrew alphabet stands for 'UT' - 'Uncle Target' - in the Anglo-American one...........

Either they're lousy shots - or they're in the 'massacre' business.

[Edited 2009-01-17 04:48:26]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:58 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
And here's the next 'incident':-

The UN-run facilities seem to have been suffered many "incidents" lately ... but of course, Israel takes great care in keeping civilians out of this

That relates to the comment from the previous thread talking about whether and why (on earth was the implication) Indonesians might be interested in a war in the ME that drew this reply from HB-IWC:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 147):
And that's not to speak about that most effective means of mass communication: what Muslims all around the world have been told about this issue in their Mosques; in just a couple of hours, the weekly Friday Prayers will undoubtedly once again highlight the issue front and center.


Additionally, Indonesia has peacekeeping forces as best I know in Congo, Sudan and Lebanon;
http://www.antara.co.id/en/arc/2008/...ore-peacekeepers-to-lebanon-sudan/
In November 2007, the Indonesian government sent the Garuda XXIII-B military contingent there as part of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil).

The 850-strong contingent led by Lt Col Djoko Sudiono consists of joint military personnel from the three services in the TNI, the Defense Ministry and the Foreign Affairs Ministry.

The Indonesian contingent consists of 528 personnel from the Army, 242 personnel from the Navy, 60 personnel from the Air Force, 16 personnel from TNI Headquarters, one from the Defense Ministry and three from the Foreign Affairs Ministry.

Konga XXIII-B replaced Konga XXIII-A that had been assigned in Lebanon to help maintain peace for one year.

So at least 850 families do have a direct interest in the ME and in not having UN forces bombed or hit by friendly fire.

Some will recall that at various times there were pleas to Muslim countries to send forces to stabilize Iraq. It is hardly surprising if the Government of Indonesia is a bit gun shy of such involvement when the blue flag of the UN seems to be all too frequently a target.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:14 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
So at least 850 families do have a direct interest in the ME and in not having UN forces bombed or hit by friendly fire.

Sort of 'nothing short of marvellous' that the Israeli Army has knocked out so many clearly-marked UN facilities - not just in the Gaza Strip, there was also that clearly-marked UN post in Lebanon, that the incompetent buggers had to shell literally for hours before they got a hit and killed six UN soldiers.........

And even now, the UN Security Council has only passed one out of fiity resolutions critical of Israel. And even on that one, the USA abstained.........

And now, Israel has the cheek to ask for a 'UN force' to police the Gaza-Egypt border.......

Thank God that I'm long past military age. Fighting the Russians would have been bad enough. But at least I'd have known that (unlike the Israelis) they'd have been highly unlikely even to get the chance to shoot me in the back.......

[Edited 2009-01-17 05:18:52]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:31 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
If anyone can lead policy down the right road to democracy and morality Obama can.

That's debatable, but he should get a fair shake at trying at least.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
(unlike the Israelis) they'd have been highly unlikely even to get the chance to shoot me in the back

I love these threads - the lines separating opinion and fantasy are at best often obscured.  scratchchin 
Living the American Dream
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:34 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10):
I love these threads - the lines separating opinion and fantasy are at best often obscured.

'Please explain,' Allstarflier?  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:02 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Vaguely possible that 'UN' in the Hebrew alphabet stands for 'UT' - 'Uncle Target' - in the Anglo-American one...........

You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot. Bear in mind that there are numerous citizens of Israel, as well as the global Jewish diaspora, of which I'm a member, who categorically disapprove of this endless butchery of innocent people.

There's no need to drag a beautiful ancient language through the mud.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:30 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10):
That's debatable, but he should get a fair shake at trying at least.

Well at least he cant do any worse. Politics and opinions aside its sad to see the current state that the USA is in. The country is dying and loosing the things that people once hailed as the ''American Dream''. Sad to see. I think that re thinking foreign policy especially in regards to Israel and its funding of Israel should be a top priority. Maybe the economic crisis may be the thing that makes the funding dry up. I cant see American public shelling out $$$ when they are facing economic crisis at home.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:40 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot.

Guess you're right, Aaron747 - apologies. But, even in training, I had the odd opportunity to see the damage that weapons could do.

Frankly, the very IDEA of any army using such weapons in the virtual certainty that they are likely to hit civilians (like those poor little girls) utterly sickens me........

And, beyond that, people like Livni and Mark Regev, aka Mark Freiberg (not an Israeli unless he's recently been naturalised, actually an Australian who was a student at Melbourne Uni when I was lecturing there) just glibly saying things like, "There were militants firing from nearby," or some such, also turns me up.

Forgive me for being a bit angry. If the Russians had ever tried to come through the Fulda Gap back in the '60s, it might have been my job to direct fire on targets like bridges and crossroads - which, of course, would have included villages etc.

The whole idea worried me. But, at least, if I'd had to do it, I'd have been sure that it was a whole fully-equipped army coming at me - not a few poor b*****y 'militants' armed with small-arms only.

The Israeli Army's activities - 'all arms' reactions to every threat of any kind - are utterly 'disproportionate.' We would have been court-martialled and given five years or so in a military prison if we'd ever done anything of the kind........

Sorry - but even in armies, there ARE normally 'rules of engagement'..........

The Israeli Army doesn't appear to have any............

[Edited 2009-01-17 06:55:44]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:09 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7834255.stm

"United Nations officials say two children, aged five and seven, were killed when Israeli tank fire hit a UN school where hundreds had taken shelter in the northern town of Beit Lahiya.

John Ging, the Unrwa chief in Gaza, told the BBC that there was "nowhere safe in Gaza".

"I'm ashamed of this - there's international legal responsibility to protect civilians in conflict, and we're not doing it," Mr Ging said.

"We're failing here, we're failing and there has to be accountability for that failure."

Mr Ging's spokesman earlier said an investigation ought to be held to ascertain whether any war crimes had been committed in the incident."

I am also ashamed that we in the UK are doing nothing to stop this.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:21 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
I am also ashamed that we in the UK are doing nothing to stop this

Well the UK is a puppet of US goverments so no surprise there. New Labour ?? They sold themselves down the river!
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:28 pm

From the previous thread:

Nav 20 wrote: "Thanks, Us330. I don't know nearly as much as I should do as to the extent to which what we nowadays call 'Zionism' had its origins among Bible Belt 'fundamentalist Christians' as much as among 'fundamentalist Jews.'"

Oddly enough, they are two separate movements--they only started to intersect in the 1940s.
Also, they were not "fundamentalist Christians"--relative to the religious trends in the U.S. in the 18th and 19th centuries, they were very much in the mainstream, and they came out of the Northeast, not the Bible Belt, with its Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Congregationalist congregations. Just as a point of clarification, when the term Bible Belt and "Fundamentalist Christian" is used in the U.S., it generally characterizes the Southern Baptist and other related movements.

Also, Zionism wasn't a product of "fundamentalist Jews" as we know them today--the Orthodox--it was also in the mainstream, a natural reaction to centuries of persecution in Europe, set off by the Dreyfus Affair. Herzl, who is considered to be the father of modern Zionism, was not ultra-Orthodox, and grew up in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, where Jews, relative to those under Russian rule, were relatively assimilated into the population. I also wouldn't deem Zionism, or the belief in a Jewish homeland in Israel, to be a particularly "radical" belief. I consider myself a Zionist, and I haven't been to temple in years--and there are plenty of others like me.

Nav 20 wrote:
"I often wonder whether those people would 'accept' a UN Resolution giving, for example, ownership of all land in Texas back to Mexico; or that of California back to the Spanish; or, heaven forbid, that of Canada, the Great Lakes, and the Mississippi back to the French .

I think the better hypothetical in this case would probably be giving the land back to the aboriginal peoples of North America.

Thought of saying just that, Us330. But there is ample evidence (from written history, not just the OT), and from archaeology, that the 'Children of Israel' were not the first people to settle there."

No, what I meant by my statement was that if you wanted to do a "reset" and turn all lands over to their original inhabitants, then you wouldn't turn North America over to the French, Spanish, English, etc.

Nav 20 wrote:
"Another question that needs answering is, Is being Jewish:-

A. a religion?

B. a race?

C. a nationality?

As far as I'm concerned, it's merely a religion. Anyone, of any nationality or race, can choose to adopt the Jewish faith. Just as they can become Christians or Muslims or Buddhists or whatever."

Oddly enough, Wikipedia is a great source for the answer to this question, and does a fairly good job of explaining it.
Being Jewish is most definitely not a nationality. It is both a religion and an ethnicity. Anyone can, technically, become a Jew. Judaism, though, relative to other religions is fairly difficult to convert into--there is a very thorough process, almost similar to studying for a bar/bat mitzvah, that one must undertake before you can become a Jew (although, according to some ultra fundamentalist sects, no converts are actually allowed). My own Grandmother, for example, went through an Orthodox conversion that took several years before she married my grandfather.

Because of the historical isolation of Jews that prevented them from assimilating into other non-Jewish societies, an ethnicity, with it's own cultural norms and customs, also developed. One can consider themselves Jewish, like myself, even if they aren't that particularly religious. Furthermore, due to intermarriage, Scientists have documented certain genetic markers and diseases that appear more commonly in Jews than in other groups. Even in Jews, because of isolation, there are several subsets--Sephardic (Jews of the Arab world that are descendents of those who fled from the Spanish Inquisition), and Ashkenazi (European) being the two most prevalent.
I have to ask, are you Jewish, or do you come from a Jewish background?

Cairo wrote: "The "never-heard-a-shot-fired-in-anger" hawks of the Bush administration made the same kind of mistake about war, which was desirable for them because of their great education and books they read. The NYTimes is in many circles seen as the voice of Jews, run by Jews and in the service of, well, .... point being there might be other English sources about Islam more accepted by Muslims as authoritative on Islamic matters. No secular US university explains Islam the way it is understood in Cairo."

Then you'll have to explain your original point, because the only thing that I discussed about Islam in my previous posts was that suicide was forbidden by the Koran. And, if you had gone back and read the article where I quoted from, the quote didn't come from the journalist who wrote the piece, but from a former jihadist that is in a pilot program being run by Saudi officials to see if they can "deprogram" jihadists.

War wasn't desirable by those in the Bush administration because of their great education and books that they read--"intellectual" is not an adjective that I have seen used to describe the Bush Administration--it was desirable because they thought it could further their own means and goals.

I also realize that no secular US university explains Islam the way it is understood in Cairo at religious affiliated universities, but then again, no secular US university explains Judaism the way it is understood by the Chabad-Lubavitch sect, no secular US university explains Christianity the way it is understood by those at Bob Jones, Liberty, Oral Roberts, or Pepperdine Universities. Secular US Universities, however, probably do explain Islam, to some extent, in a similar vein as it is taught by secular universities in the Muslim world, like the American University in Cairo.

As for the NYTimes, I am well aware that plenty in the Arab world see the Media as being controlled by the Jews, the Banks being controlled by the Jews, the U.S. Government being controlled by the Jews, etc. In fact, there is an old line that says if a Jew feels depressed, he should go read an Arab newspaper, because according to them, Jews control and rule everything. Just because, though, they believe it to be so doesn't mean that they are correct.
 
jutes85
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:17 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
Sorry - but even in armies, there ARE normally 'rules of engagement'..........

Sorry, but Israel will not engage any enemy without using all its military arsenal, that is just poor military planning.

Does Hamas follow these "rules of engagement"? I think not.

Israel plans ceasefire, Hamas vows to fight on

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0...ternational_us_palestinians_israel

Quote:
GAZA (Reuters) - Israel plans to halt its Gaza offensive without any deal with Hamas, an Israeli official said on Saturday, in an apparent effort to deny the Islamist group any gains from the three-week-old conflict.

"The goal is to announce, subject to cabinet approval, a suspension of military activities because we believe our goals have been attained," said the official, asking not to be named.

"There is no agreement with Hamas," the Israeli official said, adding that Israel would reserve the right to act if Hamas continued firing or launched rockets across the border.

A Hamas official in Beirut said earlier the militants would keep fighting until Israel met their demands, mainly for an end to a crippling economic blockade.

The Israeli army was checking the report. A spokesman said troops do not target civilians but respond when fired on.

Israel should've never given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt. hamas would've never existed and the weapons smuggling would not be occuring.
nothing
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:25 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 18):
Sorry, but Israel will not engage any enemy without using all its military arsenal, that is just poor military planning.

That's an interesting theory. Why then is Gaza not already a radioactive wasteland?
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allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:30 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
'Please explain,' Allstarflier?

Sure, here's an example . . .

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Vaguely possible that 'UN' in the Hebrew alphabet stands for 'UT' - 'Uncle Target' - in the Anglo-American one...........


You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot.

. . . which is pure fantasy - even a critic of Israeli policy calls out the imagination you've shared, somewhat like the one I quoted . . .

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
(unlike the Israelis) they'd have been highly unlikely even to get the chance to shoot me in the back



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
That's an interesting theory. Why then is Gaza not already a radioactive wasteland?

Perhaps another way to say it is "Israel will not conduct military operations without having all its resources ready for use".
Living the American Dream
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:30 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
Why then is Gaza not already a radioactive wasteland?

That would proabably be ''excessive force'' even for the Israeli government. They prefer to bomb hospitals and schools.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:40 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
That would proabably be ''excessive force'' even for the Israeli government. They prefer to bomb hospitals and schools.

Sure, merely wishing to point at that they have such weaponary in the referred-to arsenal.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
Perhaps another way to say it is "Israel will not conduct military operations without having all its resources ready for use".

Yes, like they're not afraid to use those resources to kill people from across the whole social, political and, even ocasionally, military spectrum.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:45 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
That would proabably be ''excessive force'' even for the Israeli government

Yeah it would be overkill--the nuke(s) that everybody knows that they have, but that Israel neither confirms nor denies that they have, are mainly for deterrent purposes, and would only be used to counter another nuclear attack or potential nuclear threat. As critical as I am of Hamas, they are not a nuclear threat.
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:48 pm

Also, I should point out that we forget just how small the area we're dealing with is. Dropping a nuke on Gaza could easily affect the Israelis just as much as the Palestinians (depending on how large the nuke is).
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:48 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 22):
Yes, like they're not afraid to use those resources to kill people from across the whole social, political and, even ocasionally, military spectrum.

When it comes to defense, obviously they're not.
Living the American Dream
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:53 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 25):
When it comes to defense, obviously they're not.

Well, it's what we're seeing now, and many people on here have been constantly been excusing this as 'defence'.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:40 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 18):
Sorry, but Israel will not engage any enemy without using all its military arsenal, that is just poor military planning.

Does Hamas follow these "rules of engagement"? I think not.

Hamas is not the military of a sovreign democratic state. Hemas is the terrorist part, and agai, for the 9th thread, Israel's tactics are borderline (and that's cause I'm a nice guy) terrorist. They create terror in the same way a terrorist group does, by hitting civilians. Israel should give the example, yet they are doing the same thing.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 26):
Well, it's what we're seeing now, and many people on here have been constantly been excusing this as 'defence'.

And still waiting for any one of the "defence defenders" to condone the death of so many children, and while we're at it, even care about the UN being attacked in whatever facility they have there.
All in the name of national security ... scary
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:46 pm

Israel set to announce Gaza ceasefire
Saturday, 17 January 2009 18:04

Israeli sources say the prime minister Ehud Olmert will announce an unilateral ceasefire in Gaza after a Security Cabinet meeting this evening, but have warned that the Israeli army will respond to any Hamas fire.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0117/gaza.html


A ceasefire maybe on the cards but in the next few months Israel must answer some tough questions and international investigations. Failure to comply must result in sanctions.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:56 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Israeli sources say the prime minister Ehud Olmert will announce an unilateral ceasefire in Gaza

someone in these threads predicted that this would happen just before Obama took office ...
I really hope with Bush gone that the US will stop blindly supporting Israel in anything they do
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:59 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
. Failure to comply must result in sanctions.

Agreed, but unfortunately we all know it won't result in anything.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:13 pm

Innocent civilian's being treated in hospitals for white phosphorus burns which even after treatment still burn the flesh !!

---------------------------------------

'More than 1,000 killed in Gaza'

Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip have passed 1,000, medical sources in Gaza say, as Egypt continues efforts to broker a ceasefire.

Nearly a third of the dead are reported to be children and nearly 5,000 people have been injured.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828884.stm
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:01 pm

Olmert live on TV now and called the bombing by IDF quote '' A fantastic operation '' .
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:12 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Olmert live on TV now and called the bombing by IDF quote '' A fantastic operation '' .

You know, it would be one thing if he actually seemed sombre and respectful when (in his view) having take such measures if he really did believe it was a last resort and truly necessary for the so-called defence of Israel, but to call this 'fantastic'? That's just sick.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
us330
Posts: 3422
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:17 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Failure to comply must result in sanctions.

And when have sanctions ever accomplished anything? They only end up hurting the people that they intend to help (see Iraq, Cuba, etc.).

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 29):
I really hope with Bush gone that the US will stop blindly supporting Israel in anything they do

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but our new Secretary of State, Clinton, is a big supporter of Israel, so I wouldn't look forward to anything major. Besides, the fact still remains that Israel is only democracy (or closest thing to a democracy) in the region.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
Innocent civilian's being treated in hospitals for white phosphorus burns which even after treatment still burn the flesh !!

FYI, Hamas is starting to use White Phosphorus as well:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055472.html
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:27 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 35):
FYI, Hamas is starting to use White Phosphorus as well:

So do you think that it makes it right for Israel to use it ?
 
jutes85
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:31 pm

The only way for a future peace in Gaza is to de-arm Hamas and the Palestinian people.

Holey War
How to close the Gaza tunnels


http://www.slate.com/id/2208889/pagenum/all/#p2

Quote:
In the skies over Gaza, Israel rules. Its planes, helicopters, and drones patrol and fire at will. On the ground, Israeli troops advance while Hamas lies in wait. But the ultimate battleground isn't visible from the sky or on your television news. It's underground.

Gaza is riddled with tunnels. Some are for smuggling; others are for transporting weapons; others are for hiding or ambushing Israeli troops. The crucial passageways—400 to 600, by recent estimates—run from Gaza to Egypt, circumventing the closed border. That's how Hamas gets parts and material for the missiles it fires into Israel. Any deal to end the current fighting has to include "an effective blockading" of that border, "with supervision and follow-ups," according to Israel's prime minister. To stop the war—and to keep it stopped—you have to figure out how to stop the tunnels.

But how? Here are some of the options.

1. Buffer zone....
2. Wall....
3. Moat....
4. Trench....
5. Ground-penetrating radar....
6. Electromagnetic gradiometry....
7. Drone-operated gradiometry....
8. Automatic sensors....
9. Statistical bombing....

nothing
 
RussianJet
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:33 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 38):
The only way for a future peace in Gaza is to de-arm Hamas and the Palestinian people.

Or for all sides to take their fair share of responsibility and stop treating each other like dirt, and stop killing each other.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 37):
Or for all sides to take their fair share of responsibility and stop treating each other like dirt, and stop killing each other.


Exactly. Palestinians should be treated equally as Israelis instead of second class citizens.
 
us330
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
So do you think that it makes it right for Israel to use it ?

Well, considering that it is allowed to be used, yes. But that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that you shouldn't scream out righteous indignation about one side doing something when the other is also doing it.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Palestinians should be treated equally as Israelis instead of second class citizens.

By whom? If the Palestinians are being treated as second-class citizens by Hamas, then that is their own fault for electing them in the first place.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:25 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 39):
The point was that you shouldn't scream out righteous indignation about one side doing something when the other is also doing it.

Well do you consider the Israeli government a terrorist group the same as Hamas?

Quoting Us330 (Reply 39):
By whom?

I think you know what was meant.
 
deskflier
Posts: 525
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:25 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 27):
Hamas is not the military of a sovreign democratic state. Hemas is the terrorist part,

Correction! Hamas is the legally elected administration of ALL Palestinian territories. Which is a shame, since parties based on religion is an idea spawned by The Lord of Evil. But to go from there to failing to recognize a legally elected government just because we don't like the guys who won the election is anti-democratic. If Israel, USA and EU had shown some democratic fair play after the January 2006 elections, the recently ended ceasefire (Dec 2008) would probably have been prolonged. So all the blood being shed now - both Jewish and Palestine - stains heavily on many hands in Brussels and Washington DC, as well as those doing the actual fighting and ordering.
An interesting fact that explains the relatively poor interest from Hamas to agree on a new ceasefire. The leadership of the organization - not the people who runs day to day business in Gaza - is staying in Syria, dozens, maybe hundreds, of miles from the combat zone.
How can anyone not fly, when we live at a time when we can fly?
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:28 pm

The Beirut declaration is being brought up again and is thought to be a major topic of discussion at the negotiations in Egypt.

---------

Expectations from Israel

A. Complete withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the 4 June 1967 line and the territories still occupied in southern Lebanon.

B. Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194.

C. Accept the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since 4 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital.

In return the Arab states will do the following:

* Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict over, sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region

* Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/1899395.stm


Israel may have no choice in the matter if they really want peace.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:38 pm

Israeli TV airs Gaza doctor's pleas after children killed - ENGLISH SUBTITLES

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUJ4f...on_id=annotation_288952&feature=iv


For subtitles in English click bottom right of arrow pointing up next to the fullscreen icon. Then click on ''CC'' red icon.
 
us330
Posts: 3422
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:01 pm



Quoting Oa260 (Reply 40):

Well do you consider the Israeli government a terrorist group the same as Hamas

No I do not. Mainly because of this one difference: nowhere in the state of Israel's charter does it call for the destruction of any Arab state.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:10 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 44):
No I do not

Since we are talking about the use of White phosphorous just because Hamas may or may not have been using the same substance does not make it right. Israel is ''supposed'' to be a democratic humane country , Hamas is not and no one ever claimed they were.

People have been peddling the righteousness of Israel but to alot of people dropping bombs on schools and especially UN schools most recently killing two children and blowing the legs of their Mother is no different than loading them onto trains to their death !!
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:25 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 45):
People have been peddling the righteousness of Israel but to alot of people dropping bombs on schools and especially UN schools most recently killing two children and blowing the legs of their Mother is no different than loading them onto trains to their death !!

You seem to be implying that every time civilians die due to military action, there is an automatic equivalance to the policies of the Nazis. Before I go any further, I just want to determine if that is what you meant.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:32 pm



Quoting US330 (Reply 46):
die due to military action

Sorry its government state terrorism . Before we go any further !

''Terrorism is the systematic use of terror.[clarification needed][1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants.''

The last bit relates totally to what Israel has done. '' Or disregard the safety of non-combatants.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:34 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 34):
Well, I hate to burst your bubble

That's why I used the word "hope". I always have hope when a change is around the corner. Tme will tell I guess.

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 41):
Correction! Hamas is the legally elected administration of ALL Palestinian territories

And Hitler was elected in Germany  Wink

We all know Hamas is a terrorist organization. They were elected for several reasons, incuding Israel's oppression against the Palestinians. Honestly I'm amazed that after 9 threads this comes up...
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9

Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 48):
They were elected for several reasons, incuding Israel's oppression against the Palestinians. Honestly I'm amazed that after 9 threads this comes up...

Totally agree . After 9 threads people just dont get the deal. 2+2 = 4 . Hamas became popular amongst some for a reason . Have any of the same people looked into why the reasons were for this ??

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