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stasisLAX
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Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:57 am

A dark and highly controversial chapter in America's "Global War On Terror" is coming to a close, according to an article in today's New York Times:

"In the first hours of his presidency, President Obama directed an immediate halt to the Bush administration’s military commissions system for prosecuting detainees at the detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

Notice of the decision came in a legal filing in Guantánamo by military prosecutors just before midnight Tuesday. The decision, which had been expected as part of Mr. Obama’s pledge to close the detention camp, was described as a pause in all war-crimes proceedings there so that the new administration can evaluate how to proceed with prosecutions. Among other cases, the decision will temporarily stop the prosecution of five detainees charged as the coordinators of the Sept. 11 attacks, including the case against the self-described mastermind, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

Later this week, the new administration is expected to issue an executive order that is to start what could be a long process of closing the detention camp, where about 245 detainees remain."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/washington/22gitmo.html?_r=1&hp
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
ltbewr
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:01 am

The immediate affect of this decision is to buy time as to how to deal with what is for all parties a terrible situation. The alleged terrorists will still be detained. Hopefully this will show to the world that we respect the rule of law of our own country as well as the Geneva Convention. I suspect they will face trials with regular Federal Courts which have well established rules as to dealing with prosecution of alleged terrorists. It also may save American lives or their being tortured should they ever become POW's of irregular forces or terror groups as well as help our relations with the Islamic world.
 
baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:58 am

It seems strange that some are still happy with Gitmo in spite of the fairly obvious failure.

Just 5% were captured by the US on a battlefield

86% were sold to the US by Afghans and Pakistanis in return for what to them was a king's ransom.

So start with, the election system was, what shall we say a bit dubious.

Then, the treatment at Gitmo has meant that:

1. "Intelligence" obtained is at best suspect and

2. Confessions obtained are dubious and for the most part inadmissible in most legal systems.
See:
Title: My Guantanamo Diary: the detainees and the stories they told me
Author: Mahvish Rukhsana Khan
Publisher: Scribe, 2008.

Detainee 1194. A doctor - a pediatrician - (wife an economist). A Shiite. Returned to assist UN. Arrested by the US and accused of working with Taliban. No idea why arrested, never charged, beaten, tortured, paraded
naked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/books/review/Rosen-t.html
Once you know the endings to Khan's stories, they read like the gripping narratives of the wrongly accused. There is Ali Shah Mousovi, a pediatrician who says he returned to Afghanistan in 2003, following years
of exile in Iran, to open a medical clinic and rebuild his country. Soon after his return, American soldiers broke down his door, accused him of associating with the Taliban and took him to the Bagram Air Base. There,
he says, he was blindfolded, hooded, gagged and repeatedly kicked in the head by American soldiers, who spat on him, cursed him and paraded him naked.


OR
There is Haji Nusrat Khan, a detainee around 80 years old, who hobbles on a walker after having suffered a stroke. In Afghanistan in 2003, he went to the American authorities to complain about the arrest of his son;
days later, Nusrat himself was arrested, beaten at the Bagram Air Base and sent to Guantánamo --- turned in, he said, by a bounty hunter. Accused, like his son, of harboring a cache of weapons, he claimed that he and his
son were supporters of the American-backed Karzai government, which had paid them to guard arms seized from the Soviets. In an intrepid and suspenseful chapter, Khan travels to Afghanistan to visit the family of
another detainee and to bring back a home video of his family; later, when she returns to Guantánamo and shows Nusrat's son a similar home video of his children, he weeps. Nusrat was released in 2006.


Beyond madness. Beyond obscenity. (P Adams, Radio National) And yet some object to trying to stop the madness.

Download of Mahvish Rukhsana Khan talking to Adams at:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:00 am

I personally welcome the road Obama is following. Apparently some of the detainees will be moved to Swiss prisons, and our government already voted in favor of this idea.

Of course it's not something that can be done quickly. The administration needs to ensure that those prisoners will be prosecuted fully even after being moved somewhere else - I don't think they're entirely clueless on what they're doing, are they?!

I think this is a highly symbolic act which will make the image of the US even better in Europe. Yes, I say "even better", because the bad things people are saying about the US over here are more jokes than anything else, but fixing those "image issues" like Gitmo will for sure contribute in building a stronger, less "I'm the self-imposed chief of the world" image of the country some people have.

As a very pro-US person I'm very glad this is happening. This way, my other favorite country (besides my home country where I live) will be hopefully much less criticized, and the bad guys will be convicted anyway, in a matter well viewed by all those EU "I have to check everything's right" guys.

Go Obama!
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slider
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:14 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
It seems strange that some are still happy with Gitmo in spite of the fairly obvious failure.

This is a can of worms, admittedly.

I am personally torn on this whole thing,

But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea. Wouldn't you at least concede that there is a reason these assholes are there? It's not Disneyland and they're not choirboys.

People don't want to talk about this stuff--let's cut the crap. It's not nice, not pleasant and anyone who "condones Gitmo" is branded as a radical wacko evidently from what I keep reading, but are we too close to the Bush administration that a legit honest discussion of this can happen? It would seem so.

And given that Obama's foreign policy position would, at the onset, seem more akin to Bush (see the Hanson link I posted in teh Obama inauguration thread) early on, closign Gitmo or letting them all go is a big mistake.
 
slider
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:15 am

Oh, and one more thing...

The loudest voices squawking about how eeeeeeeevil the US is (insert Jorge Bush) are also the quietest when it comes to terror in their own homeland, genocide elsewhere and total legitimate reasons for populist revolt. But yeah, Gitmo is evidently the source of all bad mojo on the planet according to some.
 
dxing
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:37 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
The alleged terrorists will still be detained.

The only line with a truth to it because yesterdays action was nothing but a delaying tactic. In the end the detainees will find a home in the U.S. Federal prison system. Rep. Murtha is lobbying to have them brought to his district.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...ell-guantanamo-prisoners-district/

Murtha only has a minimum security prison in his district. But he says he'd have no reservations about holding detainees there in a maximum security prison.
"Sure, I'd take'em," said Murtha, an outspoken critic of the Iraq war. "They're no more dangerous in my district than in Guantanamo."


I wonder if his constituents share the same view? Notice how he worked in holding them there in a "maximum security prison", something his district doesn't have at the moment?

Back to the detainees, they only change they will notice is that it is no longer warm all year long.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
It also may save American lives or their being tortured should they ever become POW's of irregular forces or terror groups as well as help our relations with the Islamic world.

Yeah, good luck with that.
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baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:01 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

Oh I very much doubt it. You see when there is such a clear case of obfuscation such as WMD in Iraq and we cannot get near the truth and then you get the statements such as Hicks was:
"among the worst of the worst"
it is rather difficult to take statements about the processes at Gitmo at anywhere near face value. They MIGHT have obtained some useful information and they might not. The FBI estimate was that they would not, or if they did they would have no way of knowing which was useful and which was rubbish.

This information is available only because AP sued the DoD - and won.

It is still only 5% of captures were made by the US military.

86% were bought. And they seem to have been sold mostly for highly venial reasons.

Once again listen to:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/
Ms Khan
or
read the book review at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/books/review/Rosen-t.html

What sort of information do you get from a pediatrician (#1154) under torture? He worked for the UN. He returned after the Taliban were toppled to help and was accused of working with the Taliban. A bomb maker - really!!!! Beaten paraded naked and so on and never charged but labelled and enemy combatant. Which shows that too is a total sham. One of the allegations seems to have been he fought the Soviets. Ah times have changed!!!! Beyond madness.

How about the information from an 80 year old man from near Kabul being tortured? Paraplegic who had suffered from strokes. Your typical terrorist profile I suppose. Beyond obscenity.

Some of the cases are beyond awful. No number of valid cases could balance these stains on American justice. They just cannot.

Please, PLEASE be aware of what has been happening in your name.

Re REPLY 5:

Can you provide any substantiation for reply 5 at all? Or should we just regard it as an ill considered rant?

Take Indonesia as a country that has considered Bush as evil - most of the surveys could be read to indicate that. And they have had an active terrorist movement. But they have also had the most successful police action against JI. Not as far as I know, has there been any TNI involvement against JI - purely police.

Which populist revolt are you talking about? The only one I have noticed was that which swept Obama and the Dems into the White House and Congress in November - was that what you were on about?

Footnote: Ms Khan is yet another example of the remarkable quality of work that some grad students manage to do in US universities. Also Khan probably was one of the few in Gitmo who understood the Afghans as her parents had fled Afghanistan.

[Edited 2009-01-22 03:22:34]
 
connies4ever
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:03 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea. Wouldn't you at least concede that there is a reason these assholes are there? It's not Disneyland and they're not choirboys.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is always bad logic.

As for why the detainees are there, please reread Baroque's post.
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NAV20
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:20 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
We haven't been attacked.

How do you mean, 'we'? Australians got attacked in Bali - the British got attacked in London and Glasgow.There've been umpteen deaths among Coalition troops in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea.

Nor do I. But first of all, let's prove they're terrorists?

As a matter of interest, Slider (and others), how do you feel about O.J.Simpson? It's about 90% certain that he killed his wife. Public opinion reckoned that, overwhelmingly. But there wasn't enough evidence to persuade a jury to convict.

So do you think they should have 'scrubbed round' due process and just executed him anyway?

That's exactly the sort of thing that Gitmo is about. Imprisonment for life on the basis of no evidence at all..............
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:23 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

How can we know that?

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea

I see your point, but the whole Gitmo issue has been bothering me .. it goes against everything the US preaches to be. How can basic civil rights be thrown out of the window just like that? is it for the greater good .. possibly, but at the cost of losing your dignity. If there's one thing the 9/11 people managed to achieve was to scare the crap out of everyone, allowing for many people to forget some of the basic ideals on which the US has been proud of having.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:14 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 9):
Back to the detainees, they only change they will notice is that it is no longer warm all year long.

Except for the other executive order in which all cases will be reviewed. Interesting to see how they will go about this really - as people released thus far have usually had legal representation and threat of prosecution against the government for holding an individual without charge or evidence.

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
This is a can of worms, admittedly.

I am personally torn on this whole thing

There was a Pakistani national interviewed on the BBC today who is suing the US for 7 years of wrongful detention. He was picked up in Indonesia while visiting relatives for allegedly discussing shoe-bombs, of which no evidence was presented to him, and was suddenly released from Gitmo last year without explanation. Since he was his family's sole breadwinner and a successful small business owner in Islamabad, he was wondering in the interview how much reimbursement he deserves for losing 7 years of his freedom, his business, and his reputation.

Now if it's just the one guy and the rest are out-and-out terrorists, I could live with it, but he's not the only one. What number of wrongfully interned and accused is acceptable? Given the position we're in, people who are being held for known activities, with evidence to support it, shall never be released, trial or no trial.

America is better than that. I'd prefer if terrorists, despots and authoritarianism remained the domain of ruining people's lives for no apparent reason other than use and/or abuse of power.

Review the cases and decide what to do based on what is actually known about each individual.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
rfields5421
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:22 pm

A lot of people forget that the US military senior officers, judges and lawyers fought against the tribunals.

When Gitmo was setup and the system of prosecuting these men was being devised, the military argued that their trials belonged in the US federal courts, not in US military courts.

Military courts are setup and military legal personnel are trained to administer the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

In case anyone has forgotten, we do have US federal courts in this country which are setup to conduct investigations and trials with classified data, and to protect that data.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:35 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 12):
In case anyone has forgotten, we do have US federal courts in this country which are setup to conduct investigations and trials with classified data, and to protect that data.

Yeah but if federal courts were used, the White House and intelligence agencies wouldn't be able to exercise direct authority over the process, that was the whole point. Look how fast Obama's order went into action - case in point.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:26 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Now if it's just the one guy and the rest are out-and-out terrorists, I could live with it, but he's not the only one. What number of wrongfully interned and accused is acceptable? Given the position we're in, people who are being held for known activities, with evidence to support it, shall never be released, trial or no trial.

The sort of case you report will happen and may be the most common. However, at a different end of the spectrum #1154, the pediatrician, with a wife who is also well qualified, wanted to immigrate to the US. Of course he cannot get a visa because (and this may change under the new regime) he is classified as an "enemy combatant". It is so Alice in Wonderland it is not funny.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 12):
A lot of people forget that the US military senior officers, judges and lawyers fought against the tribunals.

Well admittedly not in this thread but in previous ones I have been heavy in my praise for them and I would point out that you miss out the FBI but in relation to the detention conditions rather than the tribunal. Although I dare say the FBI would have had something to say about the tribunals if they were in their remit.

Let me again bring attention to the sterling efforts of Major M Mori and the admittedly belated efforts of Mo Davis, his erstwhile opponent, in panning the tribunals.
 
seb146
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:32 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea. Wouldn't you at least concede that there is a reason these assholes are there? It's not Disneyland and they're not choirboys.

It can also be argued that fewer lives were lost on American soil to al-Qaida terrorists under Clinton than Bush II therefore, making the Clinton way of treating terror suspects far superior to Bush II way.

Look, we all know a vast majority of people being detained were detained because someone else wanted money or had a grudge. How does that keep anyone safe? There probably were/are a few "legitimate" bad guys. I think, what will happen, is these people that never had anything to do with any terror orginization that have been held without charge for the past few years are now so upset with the United States that they will try to extract some type of revenge. If/when that happens, every last Republican cheerleader will blame Obama and, as always, forgive and forget everything done under Bush II.
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scbriml
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:48 pm

Now he's ordered the closure of Gitmo!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7845585.stm

Quote:
US President Barack Obama has ordered the closure of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp within one year.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
jamincan
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:01 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

Take the case of Omar Khadr, a Canadian. He was arrested at the age of 15 six years ago. In his trial, which only just recently started, an FBI interrogator stated that he had quickly recognized a man in a photo as having attended a terrorist training camp with him. That man was Maher Arar, and the next day, Arar was detained, sent to Syria and tortured.

In actuality, Khadr had been uncertain and only stated so after a significant amount of time, according to the FBI interrogator's own report. Furthermore, at the time Khadr stated he had seen Arar in a terrorist training camp, Arar's whereabouts have been confirmed and he was not in Afghanistan and he was in fact being tailed by the RCMP for half of the time he was allegedly in Afghanistan and was doing business in California for the other half of the time.

So, thanks to some information from Guantanamo Bay that's supposed to save lives, Maher Arar was illegally detained and sent to Syria and tortured.

How is that for a failure in intelligence? Not only is Guantanamo Bay a detention facility where many people are unjustly detained, it also spreads the unjustice forward to other people as well. How many innocent people have been saved by intelligence gathered at Guantanamo Bay and how many innocent people have had their lives destroyed by it? I'm not sure the benefits (if they exist) are worthwhile in this case.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:04 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 16):
Now he's ordered the closure of Gitmo!

The prison camp. The naval base is not going away any time soon.

Generally speaking, though, it's good riddance to a nasty chapter in our history. I understand the CIA.'s black prisons are going the same way.

When I first heard about this I figured it was an end run around the courts and there doesn't seem to be much doubt about that.

Let's get these people sorted out, placed, and tried if need be. Some of them are bad apples. The worst of them deserve a lifetime in Florence. In the basement. I'd rather be dead.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:12 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 15):
Look, we all know a vast majority of people being detained were detained because someone else wanted money or had a grudge. How does that keep anyone safe? There probably were/are a few "legitimate" bad guys. I think, what will happen, is these people that never had anything to do with any terror orginization that have been held without charge for the past few years are now so upset with the United States that they will try to extract some type of revenge. If/when that happens, every last Republican cheerleader will blame Obama and, as always, forgive and forget everything done under Bush II.

Fair summary. The mess will make more not less difficult the picking out of the actual bad guys. Bad guys seem to have been ??less than 20 out of about 1000 that seem to have gone through Gitmo. So well less than 10% and likely about 2%. Who knows how many more were done over in Bagram however.

The questioning seems to have been along the lines of "admit you did this and admit you did that" rather than, "now do tell us what you were doing in Afghanistan".

The only bit of questioning that seems to have moved from that general line was the Al Jazeera journalist who was questioned at length over the source of funding for Al J (as if he would have known) and trying to recruit him to spy on Al J. Back to George C. Scott playing Gen. 'Buck' Turgidson in Dr Strangelove.
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:23 pm

The Republicans should immediatly introduce a bill that calls for the following.

1. Release all detainees to the care of the US DOHLS.

2. Order DOHLS to move half of the detainees to be housed and cared for in the in the beautiful town of Montpelier, Vermont .

3. Order half of the detainees to moved immediately to St. Claire county Illinois to be housed and cared for by the citizens thereof.

4. Order that the subject state immediately give full benefactor rights as citizens of the subject state. Including housing , unemployment , education and state legal representation.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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JBo
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:57 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
The Republicans should immediatly introduce a bill that calls for the following.

1. Release all detainees to the care of the US DOHLS.

2. Order DOHLS to move half of the detainees to be housed and cared for in the in the beautiful town of Montpelier, Vermont .

3. Order half of the detainees to moved immediately to St. Claire county Illinois to be housed and cared for by the citizens thereof.

4. Order that the subject state immediately give full benefactor rights as citizens of the subject state. Including housing , unemployment , education and state legal representation.

huh? why?
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
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par13del
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:02 pm

What do we expect to happen to these individuals if they are deported from Gitmo back to the countries where they were captured, if the bulk of them are innocent bystanders who someone used to make money, they should have no problem, unless of course, they decide to seek revenge on those who told tales on them.

Maybe the US could make the process easier by giving each detainee a few dollars in compensation and return them home, financially, that would be cheaper than paying millions to their allies to take them. I think we all know that the US will pay a huge financial price if they attempt to place these individuals in third countries.
 
PSA53
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:52 pm

Prior to the Obama decision,Camp Pendleton and surrounding communities were up in arms when it was suggested that all Gitmo terrorist prisoners would be moved to the California base.There were two words to express their disapproval.

NO WAY!!!

Who else wants to take them?

Obama's new slogan:

"Yes We Did!"
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:18 pm



Quoting JBo (Reply 21):
huh? why?

Easy ...Home town of Mr. Patrick Leahy ( Senior Democrat and BIG opponent of Bush administration) . He has bashed President Bush for his treatment of the detainees.

And the home town of Dem. Senator Dick " Gulag" Durbin who accused our troops at Gitmo of Stalinist tactics ..

These two blow hard's should be happy to extend the recourse's of their home towns to accept the detainees. Right ?


Oh this is fun ,, real fun clark..... .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:44 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 24):
He has bashed President Bush for his treatment of the detainees.

well, let's admit the way things were done were not precisely in the most legal environment. Not even mentioning torture, many were kept in there for years, without even knowing why and without knowing when they would leave or if they would leave. The whole "innocent a¡until proven guilty" on which most advanced legal systems in the wolrd went down the drain, as well as a few other civil rights. So yes, I don't see it as a democratic process from the "land of the free". Stalinist? maybe a bit too far fetched, but certainly open to criticism.

ironically, at the same time Bush started iraq so they could be free -- how's that for irony ..
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Dougloid
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:10 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
The Republicans should immediatly

Stick a fork in them. They're finished.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:28 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 26):
Don't act stupid, AGM

Well the aforementioned gentleman used the detainees like bricks against the head of the president. All of this theater they created was intended to wip up public opinion and win a election. Period. With troops in harms way, these traitors sided with the enemy and accused us of war crimes . Even if they are right , making a public spectacle of it is sickening .

So the political counteraction should be to force them to put there money where their mouths are... Just a little political theater of my own Yellowstone ..

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 25):
The whole "innocent a¡until proven guilty" on which most advanced legal systems in the wolrd went down the drain,

Does not apply to these people . As it does not apply to POW's .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Charles79
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:27 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
As it does not apply to POW's

Remind me when did the US categorize them as POWs? Had they been POWs then they would have had more rights than they had until now...

The Gitmo detention camp is a clear example of how some folks see the world through the color of their party and not through reality. Bush lovers saw no wrong in what went on there while the Bush haters saw the detainees as scared school children who merely needed a reprimmend. Of course reality is somewhere in between but we can't see it because we are so caught up in this left vs right war of nonsense...
 
Arrow
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:31 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):
The naval base is not going away any time soon.

But it should. A bit of an imperialistic anachronism from an earlier era, from the nation that claims to abhor imperialism -- don't you think? Give the little piece back to Cuba, or let Castro have a little piece of Florida.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
So the political counteraction should be to force them to put there money where their mouths are... Just a little political theater of my own Yellowstone ..

A far more fitting location would be Crawford.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:33 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):
The prison camp. The naval base is not going away any time soon.

Yes, of course. Although I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see a rapid thaw in US-Cuban relations and a return of the base to the Cubans.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
slider
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:46 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Oh I very much doubt it.

We don’t know and might not know, that’s my point. Let me clarify—I’m playing devil’s advocate here because this is the ultimate Monday morning quarterbacking scenario in my opinion.

I strongly believe in due process, and know that if the government can do this and be unaccountable, they can do it again. And again. And to citizens. Under whatever wave of the magic wand or Patriot Act they choose to shroud it under.

The one thing I am VERY liberal about is the Fifth Amendment.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 8):
Post hoc ergo propter hoc is always bad logic.

I concur…I wasn’t merely trying to fit the formula into results ex post facto. But to say we haven’t sustained attacks is still a valid observation and the what-ifs based on intelligence gleaned from detainees is interesting.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
How do you mean, 'we'? Australians got attacked in Bali - the British got attacked in London and Glasgow.There've been umpteen deaths among Coalition troops in Afghanistan and Iraq?



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Nor do I. But first of all, let's prove they're terrorists?

I agree…but is terrorism a legal issue? Lincoln suspended habeus corpus. And his rationale was much clearer than what we face today…this is a big ass can of worms. And while I’m liberal on the 5th Amendment and due process, at what point does the very real possibility of letting a dangerous person out need to be seriously rethought?

Thanks to those who cited specifics on individuals though—I appreciate reading about that. It is a damned shame what has happened to some of them, and there needs to be accountability. I always scream for government to be held to the people and this should be no different. I did start some conversation on it though by throwing that out there, haha….
 
seb146
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:50 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 29):
Remind me when did the US categorize them as POWs?

Is there anything in any articles of fighting war how those captures and accused of fighting for the other side are to be treated? It seems to me that anyone accused of fighting for the other side and then captured are POWs. However, the Bush lawyers got smart to this and decided to make up their own category for these people: Enemy combatants. As such, they have no rights under Geneva Convention. Since they are not US Citizens, they have no rights that way, either. Yet, we are at war. Yet, there are fighters against the United States.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:54 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 31):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
So the political counteraction should be to force them to put there money where their mouths are... Just a little political theater of my own Yellowstone ..

A far more fitting location would be Crawford.

My thoughts exactly and the locals should take on compensation payments as a local taxation impost.

Likely 86% had little chance of being POWs before being classed as illegal enemy combatants unless that was a condition of sale. Could be, but until the contracts of sale are made available (surely disbursing US government moneys there would have been a legal contract of sale) it is very difficult to tell.

In short and much along Dougloid's slightly cryptic "fork it" comment, how amazing to see groping attempts to continue to justify the indefensible. And all depending on continuing to intone, "if only you knew what we know about these truly awful fellows" as a cover for, in most cases, knowing nothing at all.

It reminds me of the definition of fox hunting. The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible. This time it is about 86% of the unspeakable in pursuit of the unprosecutable.

And just to make it totally unpalatable, they mix these guys up with a few who may well be real baddies. And Bush had the nerve to call that American justice. Many (perhaps most) Americans are appalled at that misuse, but why are not ALL Americans up in arms over the traducing of your justice system.

Actually I am surprised that Obama has been moving to close the "facility" rather than interrupting the string of executions which I am pretty sure W had promised himself long before now when he started this gig. Remember how most of the ones we know about were threatened with the death penalty to assist them in concentrating? Probably just an indication of the inefficiency that W brought to most things he attempted.

Inability to organize a piss up in a brewery comes to mind.
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:00 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 31):
A far more fitting location would be Crawford.

Far more fitting would be that they never had to take them off the battlefield at all... just dig a hole for them .

One of the guys held in Gitmo ordered the beheading of Daniel Pearl for Pete's sake .... and bragged about it . Sawing a guys head off ?? You guys feel sorry for them ... honestly ? I mean do you really even care or is it just a convenience for you to oppose it... ?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:10 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
How do you mean, 'we'? Australians got attacked in Bali - the British got attacked in London and Glasgow.There've been umpteen deaths among Coalition troops in Afghanistan and Iraq?

And, most tragic of all in terms of body count, the Spaniards have been attacked.  Sad

It seems to me like sometimes Madrid is a bit left out. And just as importantly, the aftermath of the massacre is also worth analysing.

Quoting Slider (Reply 32):
at what point does the very real possibility of letting a dangerous person out need to be seriously rethought?

I think you yourself stated it clearly and you seem to believe in your own statement - due process. It is difficult to fathom that people (some of them we now know were innocent) have been detained and completely shut out of the system for six or seven years, without a day in court.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 30):
Yes, of course. Although I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see a rapid thaw in US-Cuban relations and a return of the base to the Cubans.

Stranger things have happened. On the other hand, we do have an open ended lease, and under the former arrangement a lot of money got pumped into the local economy before the Bay o' Pigs. Normalization of relations has to come first and I see it as a gradualist sort of production.

Well, Fidel and George are out of the way so there's hope. When Cuba wants to shop for groceries she'd like to shop from Sam. I'd welcome a chance to see the place as my grandfather and father spent a lot of time there in the 1920s and 1930s.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 36):
I think you yourself stated it clearly and you seem to believe in your own statement - due process. It is difficult to fathom that people (some of them we now know were innocent) have been detained and completely shut out of the system for six or seven years, without a day in court.

And it seems in a majority of cases, just half a day in a proper court would probably have seen them out a there and no more a problem to Mr Sam.

Re Pearl's killers being in Gitmo:

Colin Powell's statement of March 3, exonerating the ISI from any responsibility for Pearl's disappearance and murder, is shocking. Few in Pakistan believe such assurances. Musharraf was not involved, but he must know what took place. He has referred to Pearl as an "over- intrusive journalist" caught up in "intelligence games". Has he told Washington what he knows? And if so, why did Powell absolve the ISI?

So ISI provided the killer(s) did they?
http://www.counterpunch.org/tariqpearl.html

And

The blast killed 11 Frenchmen and three Pakistanis, and it galvanized the Pakistani government into a wider crackdown on militant groups in Karachi. Hundreds of people were arrested, including Karim and Bukhari. Under interrogation, they confessed to helping abduct Pearl, then led police to his body, which Karim said he had helped bury in a walled garden in the outskirts of Karachi. Karim was unrepentant about the American's death, telling his inquisitors "I would go out and do it again. He was a Jew, an American. I feel great to be a part of the revenge against America."
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,411458,00.html

This time you have ISI and Musharraf adding to the confusion.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:42 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
One of the guys held in Gitmo ordered the beheading of Daniel Pearl for Pete's sake .... and bragged about it . Sawing a guys head off ?? You guys feel sorry for them ... honestly ? I mean do you really even care or is it just a convenience for you to oppose it... ?

You don't get it. Nobody feels sorry for anyone who deserves to be interned. Ugh, forget it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:55 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
You don't get it

Sorry Aaron, I don't. I blame President Bush for making this a issue. He should have just taken them to some hole in Manila or Istanbul and been done with it.

What is going to happen if President Obama catches OBL or Simon al-Zawahiri ? What should be done with OBL ... bring him to NYC for a trial ? I mean what should be the procedure ?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Arrow
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:00 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
One of the guys held in Gitmo ordered the beheading of Daniel Pearl for Pete's sake .... and bragged about it . Sawing a guys head off ?? You guys feel sorry for them ... honestly ? I mean do you really even care or is it just a convenience for you to oppose it... ?

I'm not defending the real bad guys. There may well be a handful of them in Gitmo. The problem is, we have no way of knowing, and it appears that for every bad guy in the joint there's a dozen not-so-bad guys and a few more totally-innocent-of-anything guys. So, over to you -- do you really even care or is it just a convenience for you to support it...?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:07 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 39):
You don't get it

Sorry Aaron, I don't. I blame President Bush for making this a issue. He should have just taken them to some hole in Manila or Istanbul and been done with it.

Like Dilawar I suppose? And who knows how many others.

You do realise you are suggesting extra-judicial killings for a group of whom about 80% are probably innocent of anything other than being sold to the Americans. I feel tempted to ask if this is how it goes in Arizona these days?
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:29 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
I feel tempted to ask if this is how it goes in Arizona these days?

No , just pink underwear !

Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
80% are probably innocent of anything other than being sold to the Americans

Baroque that is a good point , and I have read the issue of fellow Muslims turning there countrymen in for bounties. But lets be clear , US forces have detained thousands of prisoners in these wars .. 99.9% of them have been released . There is only 245 guys down there in Gitmo .. those dudes must be bad.. kidding. But it makes you wonder.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
baroque
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
There is only 245 guys down there in Gitmo .. those dudes must be bad.. kidding. But it makes you wonder.

It certainly makes you wonder. And it took a coon's age to find out. Basically not until AP sued DoD and got some listings. If you listen to Ms Khan's checking before she could act as a translator and her fear at these hardened terrorists she was about to meet. Enter a pediatrician followed by an 80 year old paraplegic. HELP!!

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/
Ms Khan
or
read the book review at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/books/review/Rosen-t.html

And Philip Adams comments to her. Beyond madness. And then Beyond obscenity.

And mixed up with them COULD be some baddies. And we just do not know. But really you cannot put the lot in the Black Hole of Cuba on the off chance. Oh wait, that already happened!

But two bits of fury. One at mistreating the innocent. Two at getting possible or real baddies so mixed up in a fatally flawed procedure that nobody can be sure of the difference.
 
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mariner
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:04 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
One of the guys held in Gitmo ordered the beheading of Daniel Pearl for Pete's sake .... and bragged about it . Sawing a guys head off ?? You guys feel sorry for them ... honestly ?

In no way. I think whoever did that should never see the light of day again. Nor any of his kind.

If each one of them is as guilty as we are told, then each should be incarcerated for the rest of their natural lives.

But not all of them did that. The Uyghurs, for example, did not do that.

And if the Uyghurs are terrorists just because the Chinese Government says that anyone who fights for independence from Chinese control is a terrorist, then we should lock up a lot of Tibetans, too.

The Uyghurs have been freed - because they are not terrorists - but can't go home because the Chinese say they are terrorists.

Where do they go? Australia, perhaps, where there is already a Uyghur community?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...y/0,25197,24893693-5013871,00.html

"LEADERS of the Australian Uyghur community yesterday called on Canberra to grant asylum to their 17 kinsmen detained in Guantanamo Bay, many of whom have families already settled here.

Australian Uyghur Association president Husan Hasan and secretary Ala, who did not wish to reveal his first name, said the Guantanamo detainees were not terrorists but fighting for the freedom of their land, East Turkestan, from Chinese rule."


No.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/aus...ects/2009/01/10/1231004331208.html

"The Rudd Government has rejected a formal request from the Bush administration to resettle a group of Chinese detained in Guantanamo Bay military prison to Australia.

It has been reported the Australian government has been warned by Beijing not to take the 17 former terror suspects, who the US have cleared but refuse to send home for fear of their torture and possible execution."


I can only hope that the rumors are not true - that Australia didn't take 'em because the Chinese didn;t want it to happen.

But - where do they go?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:08 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
Does not apply to these people

And that makes it better?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
US forces have detained thousands of prisoners in these wars .. 99.9% of them have been released

After how long? After being treated in what way? you see, 99.9% of innocent people were treated like crap, with no civil rights, and any of the, for many years.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:22 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
What is going to happen if President Obama catches OBL or Simon al-Zawahiri ? What should be done with OBL ... bring him to NYC for a trial ? I mean what should be the procedure ?

I fail to see how that would be a problem. Just follow due procedure, as your Constitution undoubtedly provides for.  Smile
 
rfields5421
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:51 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 47):
Just follow due procedure, as your Constitution undoubtedly provides for.

The United States, and many other countries, has a somewhat controversial law, which says that actions which harm our citizens can be prosecuted in US courts, no matter where in the world they occur.

Our Supreme Court has ruled that law legal by our Constitution, including the provision which allows US law enforcement authorities to use any means possible to bring the charged person into US jurisdiction.

As I said above, we are not the only nation with such a law / policy.

However, despite his public pronouncements, I wonder if a firm chain of evidence can be established to show that OBL was directly responsible for the 9/11 deaths. Some other incidents may be easier to prove in court.
 
slider
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:41 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 36):
I think you yourself stated it clearly and you seem to believe in your own statement - due process. It is difficult to fathom that people (some of them we now know were innocent) have been detained and completely shut out of the system for six or seven years, without a day in court.

But that is PRECISELY the crux of the issue---my liberal leanings towards the 5th Amendment notwithstanding, these aren't US citizens and this is not like anything else we've faced before. At least not to this application. This isn't necessarily a LEGAL issue. But either they're enemy combatants or they're not.

Excerpting: The 1949 Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war defines POWs as members of the armed forces captured during a conflict, or: Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, … provided that such militias or volunteer corps … fulfil the following conditions:

* That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
* That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
* That of carrying arms openly;
* That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

So I don't see where, in plain language, how or where this covers terrorists, guerrillas, or any other non uniformed fighting force. North Vietnam didn't recognize the convention, BTW.

Normally the war would be over when a threat is mitigated to where military force is not needed anymore or the enemy surrenders. If continuing the war, regardless of threat, is no longer politically expedient, than the other side can surrender, declare it over, and walk off. There is precedent for this approach but who cares.

Problem is, these aren't "soldiers" and the "war" doesn't have an end and the prior conventions for defining this sort of thing do NOT apply. And the bleeding heart world is decrying our treatment of these prisoners whilst simultaneously under their breath also praying we don't simply open the doors and let them free. And Obama cannot accept that fighting terror is a legal matter to be fought in the courts.

To some degree, we all become what Nietzsche warned against--the monster starting back from the abyss to us.

Hence, my personal conflict.
 
NAV20
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RE: Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees

Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:21 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 49):
So I don't see where, in plain language, how or where this covers terrorists, guerrillas, or any other non uniformed fighting force.

A bit further on from the bit of the Convention that you quoted, Slider, it says that the Conventions also apply to:-

"6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."

In any case, the Convention is perfectly clear on the point that all prisoners taken must be treated as prisoners of war at first:-

"Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."

The US did not set up any such tribunals for years - and even then there remain doubts as to whether, since they apparently took into account confessions obtained by torture, they can reasonably be described as 'competent.'

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
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