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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:24 pm

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Thorben
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:34 pm

The Syrian "president" Basher Asad is congratulating Hamas to their "victory".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058257.html

Hardly a victory in my opinion. A failure for Israel, a somewhat weakened Hamas taking on the remaining elements of Fatah in Gaza (and hence gaining total control there), and a lot of death and destruction. This operation has no victors.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
jutes85
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:40 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):

The Syrian "president" Basher Asad is congratulating Hamas to their "victory".

Now why do they do this? What is the reasoning behind them declaring victory?

People are dead or dying and someone has the audacity to call this "Victory"? Shame on them.

Quote:
But it is not in the Holy Koran.

If it isn't, which I believe it isn't, then why do so many use Islam as an excuse for terror?
nothing
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:41 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
This operation has no victors.

Exactly. All it has done is orphan hundreds of Children who will have an even greater hatred of their attackers now.
 
Thorben
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:42 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 2):
Now why do they do this? What is the reasoning behind them declaring victory?

People are dead or dying and someone has the audacity to call this "Victory"? Shame on them.

Agreed. As stated above, I don't see any victor in this. But why not claim it after-wards?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:42 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
This operation has no victors.


I would like to agree with that, and furthermore extend to any war really (or most),

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
The Syrian "president" Basher Asad is congratulating Hamas to their "victory".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058257.html

Hardly a victory in my opinion

Considering their capability, I think it is kindo of a victory for Hamas. Let's look at it from their view ... they got Israel to look bad, they are still there, and they probably will have more support than ever.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
A failure for Israel

And here is where I think we are all agreeing. But I'm not so sure as if this was a failure for israel so much as what they wanted. They did it in 2006 and repeated it now .. so it looks more like a strategy for some reason.

[Edited 2009-01-24 12:46:04]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:45 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 2):
"Victory"? Shame on them.

Yes Israel IDF did the exact same thing. Shame on them also then.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:48 pm

In an editorial released ahead of publication next Saturday, the British health journal said Israel, by hitting civilians and wrecking medical infrastructure, had carried out attacks that were "unjustified and disproportional."

"We find it hard to believe that an otherwise internationally respected, democratic nation can sanction such large and indiscriminate human atrocities in a territory already under land and sea blockade," The Lancet said.

"The collective punishment of Gazans is placing horrific and immediate burdens of injury and trauma on innocent civilians. These actions contravene the fourth Geneva convention."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/15/2466390.htm
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:51 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 2):
If it isn't, which I believe it isn't, then why do so many use Islam as an excuse for terror?

i remember you saying that you lived in Israel i could be wrong but anybody who know our part of the world knows that religion is a very important part of our daily life.some use this attachment to religion for wrong purposes.It happens now as it did with other religions from way back.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
jutes85
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:56 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Let's look at it from their view ... they got Israel to look bad, they are still there, and they probably will have more support than ever.

Which will lead to more violence....and still no peace.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
They did it in 2006 and repeated it now .. so it looks more like a strategy for some reason.

Hamas lost many operatives and have spent a large amount of their weapon stock. Israel has also destroyed much of the tunnel network and will patrol the coastlines for any Iranian ships. Time will tell if Hamas wants to continue with more bloodshed or if they want to commit to actual government duties.
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:56 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 8):
know our part of the world knows that religion

And religion is abused by ALL:

Rabbi: Religious settlers can violate Shabbat to build

Concerns that the High Court of Justice might put a stop to the construction of new homes in the West Bank settlement of Ofra have led to the extraordinary step of keeping the work going seven days a week, irrespective of the religious prohibition against labor on Shabbat.

The decision relies on a religious ruling by Ofra's rabbi, Rabbi Avi Gisser, aimed at expediting construction so homes can be occupied before a possible court intervention.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/992214.html
 
jutes85
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:03 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
Yes Israel IDF did the exact same thing. Shame on them also then.

I'd say that they did better than they did in 2006.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 8):
i remember you saying that you lived in Israel i could be wrong but anybody who know our part of the world knows that religion is a very important part of our daily life.some use this attachment to religion for wrong purposes.It happens now as it did with other religions from way back.

Just because I lived in Israel doesn't mean I'm a Jew or practice any religion for that matter. I personally believe that religion is a curse on this planet and humans. God probably doesn't exist so I'm not gonna worry about it and just enjoy my life.
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:05 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Israel has also destroyed much of the tunnel network

Not according to recent video and news reports.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 11):
I'd say that they did better than they did in 2006.

In fact they did worse.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:40 pm

Onslaught on Gaza has boosted extremists - UN aid chief

ISRAEL’S ONSLAUGHT on Gaza has not only strengthened the extremists but also created fertile ground for extremism to flourish, John Ging warns.

The Irish national who is chief of Gaza operations for the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), argues that the people of Gaza have for many years been caught in a cycle of death and destruction which grows worse with each round and has no conclusive result.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0124/1232474679414.html
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:45 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 11):
Just because I lived in Israel doesn't mean I'm a Jew or practice any religion for that matter. I personally believe that religion is a curse on this planet and humans. God probably doesn't exist so I'm not gonna worry about it and just enjoy my life

Anybody religion is between him and God.Did not mention anything about your religion,i was explaining how people can be brainwashed and become religious extremists even though no religion calls for that kind of fanaticism.And it is not only a case for Islam but religion was abused all over the history.Hope this is clear now.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:00 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Which will lead to more violence....and still no peace.

and that is precisely what we have been saying for 12 threads. That this attack led to nothing more than more hatred, hence more potential terrorists.
Seriously, it's preciesly why we have said that Israel's attack would achieve nothing more than death and destruction, with no real results against the terrorist threat.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Hamas lost many operatives and have spent a large amount of their weapon stock. Israel has also destroyed much of the tunnel network and will patrol the coastlines for any Iranian ships. Time will tell if Hamas wants to continue with more bloodshed or if they want to commit to actual government duties.

Time means nothing. Hamas of course wants to continue with this. Especially now that they've come out of this unharmed. A few tunnels? easliy rebuilt. A few militants? with the despair and hatred there now, you the 500 dead are going to be replaced with possibly thousands of new people that will have nothing to lose.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:17 pm

History has a habit of coming back to haunt you.

TWO thousand weapons and two million bullets have been sent through Israel into Gaza, the most tangible evidence yet of efforts by Jerusalem, London and Washington to reinforce President Mahmoud Abbas against his Islamist rivals Hamas.

The delivery, with Israel's co-operation, comes 10 days after Tony Blair publicly backed the "moderate" Fatah leader in his power struggle with Hamas. Britain promised stg£1m (€1.49m) to bolster Mr Abbas's Presidential Guard.

But the US-led policy to undermine Hamas, which refuses to recognise Israel's existence, has prompted concern among international mediators that supplying guns and fighters amounts to backing one side in a civil war.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news...gaza-to-reinforce-fatah-66240.html
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 20):
Winter is coming don't you think that those are needed to construct the houses,schools,mosques, shops,hospitals which were demolished lately?

Exactly. Israel will most likely use it as an excuse to make people sleep in UN and Red Cross tents or be made to sleep in the outside.



 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:43 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 11):
I'd say that they did better than they did in 2006.

I did not know that there were a competition there.1300+ dead in 2008/9 and only 1000+ in 2006.Yes they did better in 2008/9.
But if you take in account the damage to the infrastructure you will find that it was much more in 2006.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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nitepilot79
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:52 pm

Might as well try to integrate oil and water, with both liquids claiming that they are not wet.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:57 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
But if you take in account the damage to the infrastructure you will find that it was much more in 2006.

Really , do you think so ? I must have forgotten what the scale of devastation was in 2006 because to me the current level of destruction is just over whelming. I cant imagine what the Palestinians are going through. No electricty and no sanitation facilities. Thousands with no homes and many children who have had both parents if not entire families wiped out. Then there are the ones who are nearly dead because the treatment they were getting were for normal burns and not chemials burns because Israel refused to admit to it.

I even find that harder to accept than anything else to be honest. Israel knew that they were using chemicals in civilian areas and let children die because they refused to let the Red Cross and UN know what the chemicals were.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:25 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
Really , do you think so

Talking purely infrastructure yes.Visited Lebanon in a matter of fact the day Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers knew what was going to happen went strait from BEY to Damascus.next morning all hell broke.Visited after the war.blocks of Buildings were destroyed.hundreds of bridges even very small ones,electric stations,part of the airport,factories among other things.Over a million refugee left the south of Lebanon heading North.Yep the damage was extensive.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:02 am



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
Might as well try to integrate oil and water, with both liquids claiming that they are not wet.

Please can you explain the above.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:07 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
The delivery, with Israel's co-operation, comes 10 days after Tony Blair publicly backed the "moderate" Fatah leader in his power struggle with Hamas. Britain promised stg£1m (€1.49m) to bolster Mr Abbas's Presidential Guard.

But the US-led policy to undermine Hamas, which refuses to recognise Israel's existence, has prompted concern among international mediators that supplying guns and fighters amounts to backing one side in a civil war

The pessimist in me would ask how the US was able to pull the strings of it puppets in the EU to not negotiate with Hamas while allowing them to defy them in Iraq, or how they were able to get Hamas to fire rockets and not renew the Egypt negotiated truce when it expired.
I guess one of these days I will wake up and realize that whenever the EU, UN and others speak they are only saying what the US told them to say  Smile

Extremism with the sword and the pen has to cease for work on making things better to get underway.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:10 am

The BBC is being heavily critiscised by all major political parties in the UK over refusing to show a humanitarian Aid appeal for the civilian victims of the crisis.

2000 people protested at BBC HQ in London . Tonight the BBC is in crisis themselves as they come under huge pressure from the public and government to change their stance. Religious leaders including Jewish have also condemned the BBC.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:15 am



Quoting Par13del (Reply 23):
whenever the EU

Well I agree with you there the EU showed weak leadership and as always cant make a clear cut decision. Egypt has more leadership IMHO.
 
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nitepilot79
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:30 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 22):
Please can you explain the above.

Basically, this conflict will never end.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:34 am



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 26):
Basically, this conflict will never end.

I do believe if the Beirut plan was adopted then there would certainly be a good chance. Until if and when it ever happens we will never know. Whats been done by Israel though has set this back years.
 
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nitepilot79
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:54 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 27):
Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 26):
Basically, this conflict will never end.

I do believe if the Beirut plan was adopted then there would certainly be a good chance. Until if and when it ever happens we will never know. Whats been done by Israel though has set this back years.

Humans don't deserve to be at the top of the food chain.  duck 
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:52 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Concerns that the High Court of Justice might put a stop to the construction of new homes in the West Bank settlement of Ofra have led to the extraordinary step of keeping the work going seven days a week, irrespective of the religious prohibition against labor on Shabbat.

The decision relies on a religious ruling by Ofra's rabbi, Rabbi Avi Gisser, aimed at expediting construction so homes can be occupied before a possible court intervention.

I find that VERY interesting, OA260, thanks.

The last time Senator Mitchell was involved in peace negotiations he made it clear that both sides should make immediate concessions prior to peace talks commencing. Specifically, a halt to terrorist attacks on the Palestinian side, and a 'freeze' on settlement-building by the Israelis.

This could be the first sign that the White House is 'under new management.'
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:13 am

Israel admits using white phosphorous in attacks on Gaza


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...rld/middle_east/article5575070.ece
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:17 am

There was a report on Norwegian news channel today, that the IDF had destroyed 50 000 homes in one area and left the ONE house where the Hamas leader was standing without a scratch.... Presician work of the IDF I guess.... Sad
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:38 am



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
Might as well try to integrate oil and water, with both liquids claiming that they are not wet.

Nice analogy but it is the case that if shaken vigorously enough they will form an emulsion, although the emulsions tend to separate quite rapidly. Wonder if that holds too!!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
TWO thousand weapons and two million bullets have been sent through Israel into Gaza, the most tangible evidence yet of efforts by Jerusalem, London and Washington to reinforce President Mahmoud Abbas against his Islamist rivals Hamas.

That was really bright.

As to how much Washington influences the EU, neither side is going to admit it, but it might depend on how strongly the views are held in the EU. They were strong on Iraq, aside from Blair. So far, it seems more probable that the EU has been persuaded to follow the daft line of supporting Abbas and the corrupt Fatah than that it thought this unproductive idea up all by itself.

By now it scarcely matters if the EU was able to sort out corruption in the PLO, the die is cast. And all the backing of the losing side in civil wars and bombing Gaza just makes it even more cast.

For heaven's sake EU and US, find another donkey to flog and try and find one that is still alive this time and maybe other servants of Washington will follow.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:22 am



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 30):
Israel admits using white phosphorous in attacks on Gaza

Thanks, Mortyman. So that clears up that area of war crimes.

Maybe we should move on now to discuss the other weapons they've been using illegally. Depleted uranium and DIME bombs.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:46 am

The BBC has refused to support an appeal for relief funds for Gaza

At about the 10 minute mark on Newshour:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/newshour.shtml

there is a conversation with Sir Gerald Kaufman MP on the subject that is quite illuminating. He gives a description of the Israeli Embassy in London that is shall we say frank. No doubt he will again be declared anti-semitic, but I think he regards that as normal these days. The Embassy spokesman gives a response immediately following Kaufman.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:32 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 33):
Maybe we should move on now to discuss the other weapons they've been using illegally. Depleted uranium and DIME bombs.

Yes and the investigation has already begun.

UN to probe claim Israel used depleted uranium bombs in Gaza

United Nations organizations said yesterday that it will investigate complaints that Israel used depleted uranium projectiles in the course of the fighting in Gaza, causing health and environmental damage.

The inquiry will be conducted by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Environment Protection Organization, at the request of the Arab states' UN envoys.

http://www.undpi.org/World-News/UN-t...epleted-uranium-bombs-in-Gaza.html
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:55 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
Yes and the investigation has already begun.

They could end up in even more trouble over the DU, OA260.

DU is used because it's both hard and cheap. Tungsten is just as hard - but about 75% of the world's tungsten deposits are in China or Russia, and it also costs more. So someone, years back, hit on the money-saving idea of processing nuclear waste, and using that instead.

Thnig about DU is, though, just about its only use is to make 'hardened' projectiles for use in the anti-tank role. Using A/T ammunition for any other purpose at all would almost certainly infringe the general international ban on using weapons that cause "superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering."

Particularly since there is already a lot of evidence that DU causes problems like 'Gulf War Syndrome' - and a growing amount of evidence that it even causes birth defects; like the children of veterans of both Gulf Wars, and a lot of Iraqi civilians, being born blind............

Of couse, Israel is already denying using DU. But, given that the stuff's radio-active, it shouldn't be too difficult to find plenty of spent projectiles with Geiger Counters, if they were in fact used.

And if any ARE found, it has to be a 'war crime,' given that the sole use of DU is for armour-piercing projectiles.

Unless the Israeli spin-doctors can prove that the Gaza resistance somehow came at the Israeli forces with squadrons of tanks............

[Edited 2009-01-25 04:06:27]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:07 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 36):
Unless the Israeli spin-doctors can prove that the Gaza resistance somehow came at the Israeli forces with squadrons of tanks............

They dont have proper cars let alone tanks. Next the Israelis will be telling us that Hamas had a base at the McDonald's drive thru in Al Burayj.  Yeah sure
 
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par13del
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:31 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
For heaven's sake EU and US, find another donkey to flog and try and find one that is still alive this time and maybe other servants of Washington will follow.

Now now, I guess frustration is setting in, join the club. It does sound as if you want the US, EU and UN to be colonial masters again, "find another donkey".

The powers that be on the outside have a few hard choices available:

1. Push Fatah for reforms, even to the point of putting in place independent monitors to watch how the contributed funds are spent.

2. Push Hamas to amend its charter to enable them to sit at the table.

Whether we like it or not, and how some posters have said it, the Palestinian people in Gaza have Hamas and those in the West Bank have Fatah, there is no way that they are going to allow someone else to place a political entity over them, especially if the world continues on it way of democracy, free will, elections, etc. etc. etc.

At the peace table Hamas would be a much better partner on the Palestinian side simply because their control is more absolute than Fatah's, we may not like how they do that but that has never stopped anyone from dealing with those types before or allowing them to run a country in the hope that in time they will "change their ways".
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:03 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 38):
Now now, I guess frustration is setting in, join the club. It does sound as if you want the US, EU and UN to be colonial masters again, "find another donkey".

Not really, I would just sooner they did not play favourites at all. But it appears that this is not their way. So if they must, they would be better of picking one that is definitely not going to lose as it makes matters worse.

1. Well pigs probably will fly although to be fair, who knows what Fatah might be capable of because I seriously doubt if they have ever been given much of a chance to find out.

2. Hamas now know that they may not need to alter their charter to sit at the table although from what they say they are more than happy to do that. But when so many objections to them have centred around the damned charter, why not stick to it when you are what qualifies for ahead in this upside down world!!!! That was probably not the case in early December 2008, but it stands a fair chance of being so now.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 38):
Whether we like it or not, and how some posters have said it, the Palestinian people in Gaza have Hamas and those in the West Bank have Fatah, there is no way that they are going to allow someone else to place a political entity over them, especially if the world continues on it way of democracy, free will, elections, etc. etc. etc.

There we can agree. Asbestos administrations, not as in fire resistant but as best as you are going to get. And going round elected reps just makes it worse. You would have thought Bush having prattled on about elections might have figured that all out for himself. Just hope it has dawned now.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 38):
At the peace table Hamas would be a much better partner on the Palestinian side simply because their control is more absolute than Fatah's, we may not like how they do that but that has never stopped anyone from dealing with those types before or allowing them to run a country in the hope that in time they will "change their ways".

Awfully true. Trouble is it is will be a much more stroppy Hamas now than the Hamas in 2006.

Well done Ms Rice. The pudding strikes again! Le Tarteur has nothing on Ms Rice administering a dessert to her own face. He has been a bit quiet of late Le Tarteur, then again, the old pie in the face routine is a bit tame compared with a few bombs, although of course we did have the Shoe Man showing the way.
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:08 pm



Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
The Syrian "president" Basher Asad is congratulating Hamas to their "victory

With all due respect, Mr. Assad, with comments like these, it doesn't look like you will be getting back the Golan Heights anytime soon.
I wonder what the exact details of his message was-- something along the lines of "thanks to your use of the U.N. and your great ally Ban Ki-Moon, Gaza is now only half a parking lot instead of an entire parking lot"

Speaking of Ban (that is his family name), I wonder if he realizes that his recent condemnations of the Israeli attack for being both outrageous and disproportionate while failing to condemn Hamas and it's U.N. member state backer Iran for their use of Palestinian civilians as human shields and attacks on Israeli civilians only serves to undermine the credibility of the organization in the eyes of even the most liberal of Israelis.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
In fact they did worse.

I'd disagree. There were some in the region that were questioning how "invincible" the IDF truly was following 2006 in Lebanon, where they were not able to achieve their main military objective, and if their military capability had somehow lapsed. I think it is safe to say that the myth of Israeli invincibility may be partially restored, especially given the number of war crimes allegations against them--which I think are more based on how shocking the level of destruction was and the belief that this level of destruction couldn't have been reached without the use of some illegal weapons.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
But the US-led policy to undermine Hamas, which refuses to recognise Israel's existence, has prompted concern among international mediators that supplying guns and fighters amounts to backing one side in a civil war.

I have to wonder about the size of the mountains of sand that these international mediators have apparently buried their heads in, or what exactly they are smoking if they are just now coming to that realization.
Of course it is like backing one side in a civil war--it's like playing partisan politics (something the U.S. is very adept at), and it is something that the U.S. has done quite a bit of in the twentieth and twenty first centuries (see Bay of Pigs, Nicaragua, Iran-Contra, Italy after WWII, etc.). If you think about it, partisan politics in general is like a cold version of a civil war.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
The BBC is being heavily critiscised by all major political parties in the UK over refusing to show a humanitarian Aid appeal for the civilian victims of the crisis.

I realize the BBC is a special case, because they are taxpayer funded, but the general rule in media is that if both sides are criticizing you, then you are probably doing something right.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 36):
Tungsten is just as hard - but about 75% of the world's tungsten deposits are in China or Russia, and it also costs more

Yep--which is why Iran is having to use backdoor dealings with all these western banks to get funding to buy tungsten, and this is why the U.S. department of justice is having a field day in suing the pants of these same banks for violating the embargo on Iran and anti-terrorist funding laws. One case just settled for $550 million.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
United Nations organizations said yesterday that it will investigate complaints that Israel used depleted uranium projectiles in the course of the fighting in Gaza, causing health and environmental damage

I think most of these war crimes allegations are going to come out as being little more than a witch-hunt. Given the number of war crimes allegations out there against Israel, it comes across as sounding as if people can't believe that the level of destruction attained was done using conventional weaponry.
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:18 pm

"The State of Israel will completely back anyone that acted in its name"--Ehud Olmert

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/...efense/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
 
windy95
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:23 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 41):
The State of Israel will completely back anyone that acted in its name"--Ehud Olmert

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/...yview

"U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has demanded an independent investigation into Israeli military actions that damaged U.N. facilities in Gaza."



Maybe he should investigate how Iran smuggled rockets into Gaza? How they supply Hezbollah? Oil for food scandal?
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:32 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 40):
I realize the BBC is a special case, because they are taxpayer funded, but the general rule in media is that if both sides are criticizing you, then you are probably doing something right.

Not really in this case. Appeals for internationally recognised and respected charities not supporting any group should be allowed . Humanitarian aid is not taking sides. Thankfully the majority in the UK think that as does the government and its opposition.

Quoting Us330 (Reply 40):
I think most of these war crimes allegations are going to come out as being little more than a witch-hunt.

None of us know until a transparent investigation comes out but the allegations and facts provided so far warrant a need for a full investigation.

Israel not telling the medical profession what chemicals were used so they couldn't properly treat patients is border war crimes in itself.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:12 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
Maybe he should investigate how Iran smuggled rockets into Gaza? How they supply Hezbollah? Oil for food scandal?

Are you saying they should NOT investigate the fact that they bombed UN facilities?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):
None of us know until a transparent investigation comes out but the allegations and facts provided so far warrant a need for a full investigation.

I honestly think there won't be a fully transparent investigation unfortuneately.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:44 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 44):
Are you saying they should NOT investigate the fact that they bombed UN facilities?

It certainly reads that way . But I dont understand the logic behind it. Dont investigate something because they have not investigated A/B/C .

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 44):
I honestly think there won't be a fully transparent investigation unfortuneately.

Well only time will tell. I hope there are not cover ups for the sake of political diplomacy.
 
us330
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:58 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):
Not really in this case. Appeals for internationally recognised and respected charities not supporting any group should be allowed . Humanitarian aid is not taking sides. Thankfully the majority in the UK think that as does the government and its opposition.

I read the article on CNN, and the BBC's main point was that they do not want to be perceived as taking sides, and running that ad could lead some to question the integrity of the BBC.
For the BBC, it's CYA. I don't blame them, either.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
Maybe he should investigate how Iran smuggled rockets into Gaza? How they supply Hezbollah?

God forbid that ever happens. That would mean that the U.N. would turn into an effective, competent, and unbiased organization.
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:04 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 46):
I read the article on CNN, and the BBC's main point was that they do not want to be perceived as taking sides, and running that ad could lead some to question the integrity of the BBC.

And as clearly stated by governments/religious leaders of all faiths and non politically motivated groups it is purely humanitarian. So that arguement does not wash. If anything the BBC has taken a view on this conflict and can therefore never show another Aid appeal again as it will only confirm what has already been said .

Quoting Us330 (Reply 46):
That would mean that the U.N. would turn into an effective, competent, and unbiased organization.

So should they not investigate serious concerns over Israels conduct with regards civilian casualities , Not telling hospitals what chemicals were being used and bombing of schools? Why should that not be investigated?
 
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OA260
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:09 pm

Gerald Kaufman, the Labour MP, said the BBC's decision to ban the broadcast was a serious error.

Mr Kaufman said: "I think Mark Thompson [the Corporation's Director General] is a good man and genuinely did not want to appear partisan. I am sure he has acted with the best intentions but I do believe he has made a serious misjudgement in this case."

He added: "I suspect but I don't know that the BBC may have been lobbied by groups who are not representative of mainstream Jewish opinion in Britain.

"These groups have managed to persuade the BBC that a broadcast on behalf of suffering people is partisan and anti-Israeli when it is neither of those things."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...despread-protest.html?mobile=basic
 
NAV20
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RE: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12

Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:53 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 40):
think most of these war crimes allegations are going to come out as being little more than a witch-hunt. Given the number of war crimes allegations out there against Israel, it comes across as sounding as if people can't believe that the level of destruction attained was done using conventional weaponry.

Not at all, Us330. Obviously the scale of physical destruction was utterly disproportionate - but that's only to be expected if you give an army 'open slather' on the civilian population, which (judging by the Israeli Government's haste in setting up a legal defence fund) is exactly what Olmert/Livni/Barak did.

No as far as I (and I suspect most) people are concerned, we are simply horrified at both the scale and the character of the (often fatal) injuries inflicted on innocent people by the needless (repeat NEEDLESS) and indiscriminate use of white phosphorus shells in populated urban areas.

In the case of depleted uranium, once again, any use of it was needless. If the stuff was indeed used (with its known propensity to cause radiation diseases of various kinds, and its likely propensity to cause birth defects in children yet unborn, then again I'm horrified.

Same goes for DIME bombs. From what I've learned so far, these appear to be specifically-designed NOT to do physical damage - but only to kill people. This is achieved by making the shell casing out of carbon fibre. When it explodes, the bomb apparently sends out a high-velocity 'blade' of 'micro-shrapnel' (either powdered tungsten or our dear old friend DU) which literally cuts off the legs of anyone standing nearby, or cuts them in half.

In saying, 'most of these war crimes allegations are going to come out as being little more than a witch-hunt', are you saying that unless there were a lot of incidents there's no need to investigate them? In any proper army, ALL such incidents are investigated.
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