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WarRI1
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Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:21 pm

This is by Robert Reich about the need for unions in this country. Something I believe in and support fully.

http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2009...ed-stronger-unions-and-how-to.html
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NIKV69
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:02 pm

Nice read but yor forgetting that if you start to bully companies they are just going to pull up stakes and move to Asia or other countries. If you want the middle class to make more money lower the tax burden on them and the companies they work for. You want them to have health benefits do the same thing. Unfortunately the Norma Rae mindset is long gone and will never return. Not to mention we have seen the bad unions can cause as well when they would rather destroy the company than to give anythng back.
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luv2fly
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:16 pm

Usually IMHO the people who are so pro union are the ones that need to union protection to keep there jobs. The unmotivated, slack ass, doing the minimum if that to get by.
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Starbuk7
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:19 pm

I have never been for unions. The raise prices and have far to many demands that most companies can not afford.

Check out this link for more about unions (and their lies)

http://www.unionfacts.com/
 
dxing
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:20 pm

Several questions of which there is no answer to in the article. Who bought the poll in 2006? Exactly who told the "middle class" to leverage their homes to buy "stuff"? As to his statements, all may not be as he presents. Take the janitors. If you read just his summation you would think that they are all making $16 and hour and were now all full time. Not quite. The top out for a janitor is $16 an hour, no word on how long it takes to make that figure, only 20% of the union is full time and thus eligible for health care, and part time hours were only increased 7.5 hours per week and the janitor had to be flexible as to when he or she could work those hours. As to his history lesson in 1955, that would be just before Japan and Germany got fully back on their feet. 1955 would have been the height of union power, and Jimmy Hoffa. It would have been just prior to the initial offshoring of jobs. As to his statement on tax rebates he is absolutely correct, they are a one time shot in the arm. Surprisingly there is no mention of the tax cuts that took place under the Bush administration even though every income level recieved one. Reich can toot the union horn all he wants but the fact remains he is silent on how every car GM produces has to contain a minimum $2000 charge just to cover union retirees.

http://subscript.bna.com/SAMPLES/dlr...bec158525734d00061190?OpenDocument
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:34 pm

I can see by the replies so far that Mr. Reich is correct in his article about why we need stronger unions. I cannot imagine why we would with the wonderful state of the union after eight years of the Bush Economics, I imagine you all voted for change under Obama. I mean, who would not want change after the last eight years? Change is coming, one way or another. the next one is the Employee Free Choice Act. I will try to keep you informed about the progress of the bill and the change we all seek. Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?  Smile  Smile
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luv2fly
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:37 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
I will try to keep you informed about the progress of the bill and the change we all seek. Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?

Isn't that the slogan for the Communist Party?!
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:42 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?

I think you have it reversed.

Simple fact. Business supplies 100% of all private sector jobs and 100% of the taxes that pay for public sector jobs. How much do Unions contribute?

Like I've said before, I am all for unions as a basis for collective bargaining, safety issues etc. But when you have Unions that have themselves become businesses, the conflict of interest becomes intolerable. GM, Ford and Chrysler would not be in the situation it is in now if it were not for the UAW.
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:47 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 4):
Reich can toot the union horn all he wants but the fact remains he is silent on how every car GM produces has to contain a minimum $2000 charge just to cover union retirees.

Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement? Would you care to give us your views on the "Rich" and their standard of living in retirerment, surely their retirements are in the price of everything just as the GM retiree's. I mean everything has a price does it not, especially when one is raking off all the money for huge wages and the bonus's handed out by the boards of the corporations. I cannot really believe the naive reasoning that is supposed to come from reasonable people that I read on here. I hope nobody complains to the moderators about this reply, we all can stand a little plain talk, now and again. Can't we? I would not want to offend anyone directly.
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Flighty
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:52 pm

Unions are just awful. The pure mechanism they have is elitist to the core. Special "chosen" people get the choice jobs based not on qualifications, but connections. As they gain seniority (after voting many times), they gain power. This has nothing to do with their job performance. It ends up an entirely frivolous and wasteful result. By the workers for the workers? What about society? We can't all steal all of the time. The result would be horrible.

But I reserve special disdain for public union employees (such as New York MTA employees or New York State teachers). They just rape the public, and no matter if they do a good job or bad, their pay is based on union voting power (i.e. seniority), not the performance of the place where they work!! And when public union pensions are underfunded, guess what. They just tax citizens more to pay for it.

The stronger unionization gets, the more unsuccessful society gets, until ultimate breakdown. Unions must be allowed to form. But they must never be favored. Once the government artificially prefers unions, the end is near. It is much, much better to keep your politics out of your workplace. Earn what you can earn, and vote for wealth redistribution if that is what you believe. Just don't mess with the productive elements of our economy. We need them to make money.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:01 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
I am all for unions as a basis for collective bargaining, safety issues etc

I must give you credit for that reasoning, and that does show reasoning, mostly lacking in most replies about workers.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Simple fact. Business supplies 100% of all private sector jobs and 100% of the taxes that pay for public sector jobs. How much do Unions contribute?

An often overlooked fact, how can the business supply the jobs without the workers? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? One cannot exist without the other. therefor in answer to your question, the union, if in a union situation, contributes the labor for the business to exist through its members doing the work. I am sure that up to the industrial revolution, or the start of industry, everyone was self employed. someone came up with an idea to make something in larger numbers, no workers, no business. a fairly simple concept is it not? A two way street.
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dxing
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:01 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
the next one is the Employee Free Choice Act.

Otherwise known as the Union Strongarm act.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?

According to the law employees are free to organize. Perhaps unions are in such dire straights membership wise because employees have wised up to what they get in return for their dues.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement?

Not at all, but where is the Union? They should have been collecting, building, and distributing the retirement fund of their members, not leaving it to the company. Oh wait, I forgot about the teamsters pension fund and the little problems they had with it say circa 1955?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Would you care to give us your views on the "Rich" and their standard of living in retirerment, surely their retirements are in the price of everything just as the GM retiree's.

Anyone, union or executive who does not plan for their own retirement and depends on a company defined pension plan is a fool.
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lincoln
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:02 pm



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
Usually IMHO the people who are so pro union are the ones that need to union protection to keep there jobs. The unmotivated, slack ass, doing the minimum if that to get by.

Yep! For example when I worked for the University the one gung-ho Union (CSEA) guy in the department was also the worst performer, the most slackidasical, the loudest whiner, and generally the most incompetent person for the position.

He also kept giving me crap for not taking the "manditory" hour and a half lunch every day... and he would always pull the "Oh, sorry, that's during my manditory lunch" crap if you asked him to do anything between the hours of 10:00 and 3:00.

On the other hand the great people I worked with (of which there were many) made things actually work by just ignoring the union to the extent possible or telling them to go shove things when it came down to it.

I'm all for voluntary representation, don't get me wrong, but don't tell me that I have to join a group (and worse, give them a portion of my earnings) in order to get/keep a job just because you're too lazy or incompetent to negotiate for yourself. Especially when that group has a very active political lobbying arm that goes against the majority of my personal beleifs (Social Security, Health Care)


I also find it very curious in that article "such as a comprehensive poll that Peter D. Hart Research Associates conducted in 2006, suggest that a majority of workers would like to have a union to bargain for better wages, benefits and working conditions"

Yet it provides no example of this "comprehensive" poll, let alone a the specific question that was asked. It's very easy with a poll to create a question that is slanted in such a way as to virtually gaurntee a particular response, or to be so vauge as to be nearly useless.

For example from the wording of that blob the question could have been "Would you like to make more money?" Hell yes, I'd like to make more money, but do I beleive that a union would be any better at increasing my net take home pay than I can on my own? Emphatically: No F---ing Way.

Would I like better working conditions? Eh, actually, aside from getting a couple more/brighter lights in my office (and maybe a better cable TV package at my desk -- basic is really starting to blow), I'm really quite satisfied. In any event do I think that a union would have any better luck than I would? Actually, I'd probably be worse off.

I'm a big boy. I can negotiate for the pay, working conditions, and benefits that are important to me on my own, thank you very much.

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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:05 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
According to the law employees are free to organize. Perhaps unions are in such dire straights membership wise because employees have wised up to what they get in return for their dues.

Anyone who can deny what Mr. Reich says about intimidation by corporations and the useless labor laws is naive to a fault, dare I say it a fool.
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:06 pm



Quote:
NIRA's labor provisions, meanwhile, were strengthened in the National Relations Act, signed into law in 1935. As union membership doubled, so did labor's bargaining power, rising from 14 million strike days in 1936 to about 28 million in 1937. By 1939 wages in protected industries remained 24 percent to 33 percent above where they should have been, based on 1929 figures, Cole and Ohanian calculate. Unemployment persisted. By 1939 the U.S. unemployment rate was 17.2 percent, down somewhat from its 1933 peak of 24.9 percent but still remarkably high. By comparison, in May 2003, the unemployment rate of 6.1 percent was the highest in nine years.

Recovery came only after the Department of Justice dramatically stepped enforcement of antitrust cases nearly four-fold and organized labor suffered a string of setbacks, the economists found.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...ies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:09 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Anyone, union or executive who does not plan for their own retirement and depends on a company defined pension plan is a fool.

Are we reading and watching the same news? It seems the executive does not have to PLAN for anything, the white collar thug system (board of directors) sees to that. they should be charged with extortion, so do not come with that foolishness about unions and defined pension plans.
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dxing
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:10 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Anyone who can deny what Mr. Reich says about intimidation by corporations and the useless labor laws is naive to a fault, dare I say it a fool.

Every couple of years they have a vote to allow the union in certain segments of our company, every couple of years it gets voted down. Happens that way at any number of large companies in this country. Unions who complain they can't get a fair shake are doing nothing convince those that vote against them time and time again. The workers have seen that having a union means giving up things at the workplace as well as getting and in many cases what they have to give up is not worth what they get in return.
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.

According to the article, Roosevelt thought that excessive competition was a problem. I wonder what we have now 70 years later, competition maybe once again a little excessive. drug stores selling articles never sold in drug stores. Grocery stores carrying items never before sold in grocery stores. No one wants anyone to make a buck. McDonalds across the street from Burger King. A drugstore on every corner, I think Roosevelt was absolutly correct. I think the economic mess we are in now proves that all too well. Look how many banks there are, ridiculous. Look at the clothing stores and Malls, ridiculous, resturants, by the millions, all looking for customers now that the economy has crashed. Oh! what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive. Could the know it all younger generation be wrong and greedy? Hmmm.
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Flighty
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:37 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.

YES, this is the point that has to be watched very very carefully.

Since unions are often at the brink of failure (brink of bankruptcy against a non-union competitor), they will reach out to the government for help.

"Saving the loser" actually poisons the winners, and then there is a bill for producing the whole charade (call it "economic special effects"), which is paid by the public.
 
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:40 pm

I think if you got rid of the "closed shop" principle (mandatory membership of a particular union to get employed), then you'd solve most of the problems. Here in Germany, why no emploer can force and employee NOT to be a union member, no union can force an employer only to hire members of this union.
If there is enough representation of employees with acertain union, theycan legasllyforce the boss to listen to them and negotiate with them. But on the other hand, if the union doesn't perform, there is no obstacle (e.g. fear of losing the job) against leaving this union if the union doesn't perform. Also, most German unionsare interested in keeping their company profitable, to save their member's jobs.
Anyway, normallyworkers in Germany are represented through a "Betriebsrat" an elected representative of the staff, who negotiates with the management on behalf of thestaff. This Betriebsrat might be a union member, but often he isn't, instead he is just a guy the other workers trust.

I'm a union member myself, of a British union, which only accepts licenced aircraft maintenance personnel (those who guarantee with their signature that the aircraft is airworthy), because they are the only ones working on EASA level, but I'm not going to join any of the selfserving German industrial unions again.
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:42 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 16):


Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Anyone who can deny what Mr. Reich says about intimidation by corporations and the useless labor laws is naive to a fault, dare I say it a fool.

Every couple of years they have a vote to allow the union in certain segments of our company, every couple of years it gets voted down. Happens that way at any number of large companies in this country. Unions who complain they can't get a fair shake are doing nothing convince those that vote against them time and time again. The workers have seen that having a union means giving up things at the workplace as well as getting and in many cases what they have to give up is not worth what they get in return.

I have no problem with people being treated well by their company, that is the way it should be. Now the question, evidently there is someone who wants a union in your place. Now if the union can't get voted in because of good treatment, fine. If the union is being defeated by fear of retribution by the corporation or company, such as, we will close, outsource, move, not so fine, that is fear mongering by the company, exactly what Mr. Reich covers in his article, intimidation without a strong way of enforcing the law against it, remains exactly that intimidation, illegal, but not enforceable under the weak law or fines. Only a fool thinks we have strong labor laws here, state or federal. Like my Mother was fond of saying about me. I quote "a great ship for the Captain, a hell ship for the crew. I still have the placque on the wall that she gave me with that saying on it.
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dxing
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:44 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
across the street from Burger King. A drugstore on every corner

It's called free market competition. It means that if I think I can set up a business in a niche not previously identified by others I can make my pile. I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Klaus
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:47 pm

From my outside perspective both extremes are destructive:

Employers exploiting the weaknesses of their non-unionized workers ultimately leads to poverty even while in employment and a massive redistribution of wealth from the workers to the employers.

Unions being able to enforce full unionization, on the other hand, can choke an employer's viability as a business in extreme cases.

It's probably a good idea to recalibrate that compromise on both ends.

There need to be sufficient guaranteed rights and a reasonable social system for employees, but unions need to be reasonably constructive as well, with reasonable limits to their power as well.

After the massive shift of wealth to the employer side in recent years, however, which actually had real incomes stagnate or even drop through several years for all but the spectacularly growing upper few percent of the income range, a reconstruction of the middle class must be the priority on this continent as well!
 
NIKV69
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:01 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
I can see by the replies so far that Mr. Reich is correct in his article about why we need stronger unions. I cannot imagine why we would with the wonderful state of the union after eight years of the Bush Economics, I imagine you all voted for change under Obama. I mean, who would not want change after the last eight years? Change is coming, one way or another. the next one is the Employee Free Choice Act. I will try to keep you informed about the progress of the bill and the change we all seek. Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle

People that don't govern by talking points and CNN sound bytes. Bush and Obama have nothing to do with this.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement? Would you care to give us your views on the "Rich" and their standard of living in retirerment, surely their retirements are in the price of everything just as the GM retiree's. I mean everything has a price does it not, especially when one is raking off all the money for huge wages and the bonus's handed out by the boards of the corporations. I cannot really believe the naive reasoning that is supposed to come from reasonable people that I read on here. I hope nobody complains to the moderators about this reply, we all can stand a little plain talk, now and again. Can't we? I would not want to offend anyone directly.

Nothing wrong with someone getting retirement but you can't force companies to do the same thing. It was one thing to improve sweat shops and fighting companies that did illegal things but you sound you like want unions so they can get all these perks and benefits for their help. You realize of course that companies have budgets and overhead? Not all are going to pay their help what you think is right or give them stuff after they retire. That is just a fact of life. You are not forced to work there, you can always leave and find a better job. Implying that we need unions to start to strongarm companies into giving their help more is reason why people feel Luv2fly do in reply 2.
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:08 pm

[quote=PPVRA,reply=14]Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.

Ok, As we all should know the history of unionism has a very violent past, even back to the old "Guilds" of the middle ages, would you all like to go back to those violent days? We all know that may come again, we see evidence of this in the unrest in the economic slowdown around the world. That is what a law is for as far as labor laws go, to enforce FAIRNESS, to give the workers a way to protect themselves from the Corporations, which are inherantly greedy and vicious. Before these laws which were paid for with blood and violence, we all know, if we have read history, the way of life here and elsewhere was existance, nothing more. Great for some. You folks may have a high opinion of yourselves, go back 100 years and see how you would make out and how your families would live before unions changed it all.
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:15 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
From my outside perspective both extremes are destructive:

Employers exploiting the weaknesses of their non-unionized workers ultimately leads to poverty even while in employment and a massive redistribution of wealth from the workers to the employers.

Unions being able to enforce full unionization, on the other hand, can choke an employer's viability as a business in extreme cases.

It's probably a good idea to recalibrate that compromise on both ends.

There need to be sufficient guaranteed rights and a reasonable social system for employees, but unions need to be reasonably constructive as well, with reasonable limits to their power as well.

After the massive shift of wealth to the employer side in recent years, however, which actually had real incomes stagnate or even drop through several years for all but the spectacularly growing upper few percent of the income range, a reconstruction of the middle class must be the priority on this continent as well!

Every now and again, a reasonable well thought out reply. Two sides to every story. A huge transfer of wealth upwards

Well said.
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:20 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 21):
It's called free market competition. It means that if I think I can set up a business in a niche not previously identified by others I can make my pile. I don't see anything wrong with that.

You and the Free Marketers, your opinion, I will stick by Mr. Roosevelt's theory. Crushing competition, stifleing wages while trying to make your "PILE". We now have a pile all right and it does not smell too good.
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:23 pm



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
Usually IMHO the people who are so pro union are the ones that need to union protection to keep there jobs. The unmotivated, slack ass, doing the minimum if that to get by.

I'm a strong union supporter. I don't think I was an unmotivated, slack ass.  confused 

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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:33 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
People that don't govern by talking points and CNN sound bytes. Bush and Obama have nothing to do with this.

How inaccurate with that one, I am sorry, but Bush dam near destroyed our economic system and now President Obama will certainly have the punch to influence labors course for the time he serves.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Nothing wrong with someone getting retirement but you can't force companies to do the same thing. It was one thing to improve sweat shops and fighting companies that did illegal things but you sound you like want unions so they can get all these perks and benefits for their help. You realize of course that companies have budgets and overhead? Not all are going to pay their help what you think is right or give them stuff after they retire. That is just a fact of life. You are not forced to work there, you can always leave and find a better job. Implying that we need unions to start to strongarm companies into giving their help more is reason why people feel Luv2fly do in reply 2.

I see that once again, while touching on some points correctly, you do not understand unions. Working conditions are just as important as wages and benifits, that is what make life bearable in a job, conditions. I think OSHA was created to protect some of those conditions. (staying alive) It would take a fool to try to intentionally destroy your livlihood, 42 years in labor, I never met one who was trying to be unemployed, not anyone with a lick of common sense.
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GuitrThree
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:37 pm

Humm.

We can argue this that and another, but let's look at results.

GM. Ford. Chrysler. Tank. Tank. Tank.

Delta. AA. United. NWA. Continental. Tank. Tank. Tank.

US Public Schools are taught by teachers in unions in each and every state. Horrid results. Horrid, horrid, horrid. Each and every year our students learn less and less. I just saw a story two weeks ago in the Nashville paper basically talking about how many more substitute teachers are available due to the bad economy. What wasn't talked about (but did show the numbers in the story), is that every given day, out of 5,000 teachers, 650-700 are sick. Yes, that's a 13-14% sick rate. That's one sick day every 8 days per teacher. You can ONLY THANK THE UNION FOR THAT PERFORMANCE. What company would survive today with 14% of their employees out daily?


And let's not talk about things such as the Steel Industry that is now non existant.

Most all governments are run by union employees. And we all know how great those are run.

Now. To be fair, there are a few good union run organizations. Most Police and Fire Departments are ran decently and most of those employees are fine people. Kroger is doing pretty well too, but over the years they've just about replaced all FT Union employees with the PT variety. Southwest seems to be doing OK too, but their Union seems to be a little differnt than the rest, as is the management of that company. There are others, but for the most part, union ran industries in this country are drying up.

But let's face it. Non-union companies like Wal*Mart, and many of the Southeastern located Non-Union car makers are doing very well.

So. I'm not here to argue. You can say all you want about how this country needs stronger Unions. I say, just look at the results of those companies versus those that don't have unions. Anytime you take the competitiveness out of the workplace between workers, you take the competitiveness out of the entire company.
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windy95
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:47 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
the next one is the Employee Free Choice Act

Union thug act

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
you informed about the progress of the bill and the change we all seek

No thanks

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?

Okay Chairman Mao

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
How much do Unions contribute?

Not much

Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Perhaps unions are in such dire straights membership wise because employees have wised up to what they get in return for their dues.

Exactly

Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Oh wait, I forgot about the teamsters pension fund and the little problems they had with it say circa 1955?

Take a look at the current Teamsters Central states pension fund

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Anyone who can deny what Mr. Reich says about intimidation by corporations and the useless labor laws is naive to a fault, dare I say it a fool.

Your opinion

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
think if you got rid of the "closed shop" principle (mandatory membership of a particular union to get employed), then you'd solve most of the problems.

Check

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 20):
If the union is being defeated by fear of retribution by the corporation or company, such as, we will close, outsource, move, not so fine, that is fear mongering by the company

Two way street

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 20):
Mr. Reich

Is an idiot

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
It's probably a good idea to recalibrate that compromise on both ends.

Check

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 28):
but Bush dam near destroyed our economic system

Care to prove that one
 
NIKV69
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:19 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 28):
but Bush dam near destroyed our economic system and now President Obama will certainly have the punch to influence labors course for the time he serves.

This is simply Kool aide. Bush alone was not to blame for the downturn in the economy and your Dem buddies shoulder blame as well. In addition Obama will have nothing to do with forcing labor to do anything they don't want to do. That was just a talking point he fed you to get elected.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 28):

I see that once again, while touching on some points correctly, you do not understand unions. Working conditions are just as important as wages and benifits, that is what make life bearable in a job, conditions. I think OSHA was created to protect some of those conditions. (staying alive) It would take a fool to try to intentionally destroy your livlihood, 42 years in labor, I never met one who was trying to be unemployed, not anyone with a lick of common sense

Of course but we are not talking about working conditions. We are taking about rate of pay and benefits. You can't force a company to do more just because you feel someone deserves more or deserves retirement of health care or anything like that. If Obama were to try to follow through on his weak campaign promise (which he won't) these companies wouldn't stand for it and would just leave the country which would lose more jobs than it creates. No matter how much you don't want to accept the fact but we are a free market society and you can't start bullying these companies for political gain.
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dxing
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:26 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
Crushing competition, stifleing wages while trying to make your "PILE".

Nobody is forcing you to come work for me. BTW, most trades people in business for themselves, even if they belong to a union, bid on the jobs that they do. So if I take the lowest bidder isn't that tradesmen screwing his fellow union members?
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luv2fly
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:42 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 27):
I'm a strong union supporter. I don't think I was an unmotivated, slack ass.

There are always exceptions.....
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PSA727
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:02 am

If the unions were "all that" then they should support secret ballots and not card check. A secret ballot would protect employees from any type of employer backlash, correct? Unless all employees vote "yes" to unionize. But card check uses union intimidation to get employees to vote "yes" because it removes the protection of anonymity. Even the union leaders know that they don't add much benefit, hence the need for card check.

On a personal note, I'm in the hotel industry and the unions are constantly trying to set up shop in our properties without much success. But when our company buys another hotel that is unionized, it summarily fires everybody when the final papers are signed. If the hotel is not unionized, most employees are kept on once they fill out new application froms (which is just a formality since the selling company takes all employee files with them). Now, what kind of job security is that? Do the unions mention that possibilty to prospective hotel employees? I seriously doubt it.
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:31 am



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 29):

Look at the wage and benefits for most, the non-union auto companies, not bad, Walmart and the vast majority of retail, slave wages. A joke for a living wage.
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Aaron747
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:35 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement?

Why do you have a problem with people, provided that they have decent wages commensurate with their local cost of living, being responsible for living in such a way that they can properly prepare for their own retirement? Why does another organization have to do it for them?
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:36 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 30):
Care to prove that one

Duh! look around at the numbers, gee! aren't things wonderful after 8 years of your leaders economics. Amazing, the Kool Aid is still strong enough.  Sad  Sad
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:42 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 31):
In addition Obama will have nothing to do with forcing labor to do anything they don't want to do. That was just a talking point he fed you to get elected.

I agree, Obama will have nothing to do with forcing labor to do anything they labor) do not want to do. I know you did not mean it that way, but see how words can be twisted. We will see about his promises, they cannot be any worse than the last eight years of ruination for this country.
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johns624
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:58 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Anyone, union or executive who does not plan for their own retirement and depends on a company defined pension plan is a fool.

They did, they bargained for it. If they hadn't had a defined pension, they would have asked for more money upfront.
The nonunion automakers HAVE TO pay wages near what the UAW has or they would be unionized in a heartbeat. The union keeps nonunion companies honest. Do you think the nonunion companies would pay those wages if they didn't have to. Most of the southern nonunion plants have only been around for a decade or less. Wait until their workers get near retirement age and realize they don't have squat...
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:59 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):

Why do you have a problem with people, provided that they have decent wages commensurate with their local cost of living, being responsible for living in such a way that they can properly prepare for their own retirement? Why does another organization have to do it for them?

I do not have any problem with anyone taking care of themselves. Now as far as wages commensurate with their local cost of living, surely you jest. I live in R.I. where the cost of living is very high, tax burden etc. you mean to tell me that Walmart, CVS,Home Depot, Lowes, landscaping and all the retail, non-union trucking, jewelry and so and so on, are paying wages commensurate with our cost of living, baloney there. we have lost all our good paying manufacturing jobs to overseas, that is what we have left. Our union jobs are the best paying here. Government pays well, only so many of those. For every decent paying job, there is 20 minimum wage jobs, minimum. This was a manufacturing state, not anymore, thanks to all you free traders. The problem is the scumbag greedy Bankers and the Captains of Industry and their lackies who try to rake it all off at the top, and let the shit trickle down.
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:10 am



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 39):
They did, they bargained for it. If they hadn't had a defined pension, they would have asked for more money upfront.
The nonunion automakers HAVE TO pay wages near what the UAW has or they would be unionized in a heartbeat. The union keeps nonunion companies honest. Do you think the nonunion companies would pay those wages if they didn't have to. Most of the southern nonunion plants have only been around for a decade or less. Wait until their workers get near retirement age and realize they don't have squat...

Amen!, I can see by your age bracket, you have been there and done that, these naive replies about the big bad unions amaze me. I sometimes feel I am dealing with, let me say not quite grownups to use a polite description. this generation should hide their heads for what has been done to this great nation because of a culture of me, me, me. Simply amazing. We have the finast young generation of soldiers, defending us and what are they are defending. ???
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windy95
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:40 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 37):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 30):
Care to prove that one

Duh! look around at the numbers, gee! aren't things wonderful after 8 years of your leaders economics. Amazing, the Kool Aid is still strong enough.

But show me what he did to create the credit crisis. How he was solely responsible for it?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
Our union jobs are the best paying here

Which is why union numbers are dwindling and going overseas

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
thanks to all you free traders

Protectionism is gone. It is a world market. Get over it.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 41):
these naive replies about the big bad unions amaze me

I am a long time union member. Nothing naive here. Just tired of being raped and screwed by people who are supposed to work for me but act like I work for them. I already have one employer. I do not work for the Teamsters. Especially when they are in bed with management. I would prefer to be screwed by just one, not both.
 
lincoln
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:00 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 41):
these naive replies about the big bad unions amaze me

While I may be young, my first two employers (and my first 6 years of employment) were hevaily unionized. I've seen the hell that they can wreak on efficiency, worker morale, etc., etc. nothing niave here.

Actually the lack of union was one of the key factors that brought me to my current employer (not to mention more paid vacation, more sick leave, a base salary that works out to a $20/hr increase over what I was making, better health coverage, bonus opportunities, less bureaucratic BS)... The best part is I don't have to listen to people wining about things not being "fair".

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
we have lost all our good paying manufacturing jobs to overseas, that is what we have left

The reason we "lost" the manufacturing jobs is we priced ourselves out of the market. Pure and simple; other countries are capible -- for a varitety of reasons, including the lack of artificially-inflated union wages and less regulatory nonsense -- of producing the goods at a lower total cost. Meanwhile we have a huge knowledge base that we aren't fully leveraging; the US economy has shifted from a labor based economy to a knowledge/technical one. But Unions kick and scream in the face of innovation rather than adapt.

Just to tie the example back to this site, when on major US airline (I think it was United) introduced an aircraft that could be flown with a two-man crew instead of a three-man crew, therefore cutting the flight crew costs by a third the union went kicking and screaming, and as I understand it for quite a while United had a 3rd crewmember on the flight deck of those aircraft doing nothing except keeping the union quiet. You can't tell me that that makes any sense.

As I said in my original reply, I don't have a problem with voluntary representation, it's the forced, i.e. "Closed Shop" model that I can't stand. What MD11Engineer describes seems like the ideal to me:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
I think if you got rid of the "closed shop" principle (mandatory membership of a particular union to get employed), then you'd solve most of the problems. Here in Germany, why no emploer can force and employee NOT to be a union member, no union can force an employer only to hire members of this union.

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johns624
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:10 am



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 43):
less regulatory nonsense

Yeah, those pesky EPA regulations. Let those heathen Indians and Chinese worry about air, water and soil pollution...
That's where offshoring saves the real money, not in losing union wages, but not having to care about environmental regulations. How many sites in India and China would be on the EPA's Supefund list if they were in the US?
 
dxing
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:12 am



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 39):
They did, they bargained for it. If they hadn't had a defined pension, they would have asked for more money upfront.

I don't care what their union bargained for. If they weren't smart enough to take care of themselves then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Quoting Johns624 (Reply 39):
Wait until their workers get near retirement age and realize they don't have squat...

Same thing applies. You either take care of yourself or blame no one but yourself.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
This was a manufacturing state, not anymore, thanks to all you free traders.

Of course the union would never have priced themselves out of a job now would they? You asked earlier....

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
An often overlooked fact, how can the business supply the jobs without the workers? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? One cannot exist without the other.

If the capital weren't there to start the business there would be no job to be had. Just like if the company can't be profitable because the labor cost is too high the job will vaporize. If you want to make as much as the CEO, go to school and work your way up the management chain. Don't just expect to be handed a huge hourly wage because you work there. The day you start thinking of yourself as a vendor to the company the better off your position will be. BTW, you have yet to answer my question. If I take the lowest bidder on a tradesmen for a job around my home, and all the bidders were union, isn't the lowest bidder screwing his union buddies?
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johns624
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:19 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 45):
I don't care what their union bargained for. If they weren't smart enough to take care of themselves then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Let's see, your bio says that you're an airline dispatcher in the 46-55 age range. Let's say you make $55K a year. That means that whenyou retire in 10-20 years, your stock portfolio has to be worth $1.2 million in order to keep the same standard of living. I wish you luck...
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:23 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
But show me what he did to create the credit crisis. How he was solely responsible for it?

He was not, but he and the Republicans sure set a bad example of influence peddling, greed, and currption, look at the FDA, food laws, big business, banks, big mining, conservation, immigration. He was supposed to be a leader for all, not special interests. Remember the Contract with America?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
Which is why union numbers are dwindling and going overseas

Union jobs went overseas because the government allowed and encouraged it. their was an agenda to break the unions, Republican and Democrats, Political donations work on all these scumbags, that is the way the laws are written to be so easily avoided.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
Protectionism is gone. It is a world market. Get over it.


I find the Europeans much more ballsy than the current US worker, when the # hits the fan economically, let us see how and if protectionism rises again in Europe and here. Let us hope for better days and no food shortages world wide.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
am a long time union member. Nothing naive here. Just tired of being raped and screwed by people who are supposed to work for me but act like I work for them. I already have one employer. I do not work for the Teamsters. Especially when they are in bed with management. I would prefer to be screwed by just one, not both.

Now you have my attention, where I worked about 30 years ago, and spent my career we were going to a affliate with a national union (We had an independant union for many years) the Teamsters tried, we would not touch them with a ten foot pole, still would not. IBEW won. The union is a reflection of its members. If people are unhappy with the leadership in the local, they should run for office, you do have election of officers do you not? If they are in bed with management, throw them out, unless the members are happy with the way things are going. I was a Union Steward for many years, saw many business managers come and go when things did not go right. What is the secret in your local? This is where the sacred secret ballot can screw you over sometimes, the no balls and cronies will use it everytime and nobody is the wiser.
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ADXMatt
Posts: 513
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:41 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Anyone, union or executive who does not plan for their own retirement and depends on a company defined pension plan is a fool.

As a longstanding "benefit" the pension is part of the plan.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement?

Why do you have a problem with people, provided that they have decent wages commensurate with their local cost of living, being responsible for living in such a way that they can properly prepare for their own retirement? Why does another organization have to do it for them?

You mention decent wages above. remember an employees pension is part of the complete compensation package. You take the value of your take home pay, your work rules, and benefits like health insurance, retirement, vacation, sick time etc to get a complete compensation.

The worker should be rewarded for their loyalty to the firm compared to the job jumper.

Most of the posters on here are more educated and affluent then the median worker. Not every person comes from a home of privilage. You get what you (or your employee group) negotiates. The majority of union workers are not lazy slackers. Yes there are some but the same can be said of non union workers. If you don't do your job or continually f up you will get fired, union or non union.
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Why We Need Stronger Unions.

Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:45 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 35):
Walmart and the vast majority of retail, slave wages. A joke for a living wage.

Maybe. But take a closer look. How much do you think a cashier or stock boy should make? $50K plus benefits? They ring up and stock stuff. I don't mean to sound cruel, but jeeze. That's what high-school students should be doing.

That's what you are not seeing. You see all these low paying retailers and expect them to pay "living wages" for basic, first time jobs. Those jobs are meant to be a stepping stone to a bigger and better job latter in life, be it management at Wal*mart (which pays EXTREMELY well, but a pot load of working hours), or another better job at another employer.

See, your idea is to just keep pushing a broom, stock cart, or register buttons and make large amount of money through unions, while not realizing that paying these low skilled workers the rate you'd like to see would bankrupt the company.

The way I see it, is take those same basic jobs where people compete with other employees, be the best you can, and move up in life. If you do that, you simply will never need a union. If you want to do nothing but the basics, well then you get what you get. And if that means you live on minimum wage, so be it.

It's that simple.
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