User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 6019
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:56 pm

Though this is still tentative as various parties still have to agree to it , it appears that compromise was able to be achieved. And one that is significantly lower than the $900+billion that had been expected/feared.

Quote:
Democratic and Republican senators have reached a tentative agreement for a $780 billion stimulus package, according to two Democratic sources and a GOP negotiator.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/06/stimulus/index.html

There is a lot more to come of this story obviously but this is good news if it holds (obviously depending on what is actually in the bill but then I am counting on key Republicans and certain Democrats to make sure it is.... OK it doesn't sound good does it?  Silly ).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:11 am

Sounds to me like Voinivich just gave up. I don't see in the story where he plans to vote for anything. Meanwhile:

"This is not some abstract debate. It is an urgent and growing crisis," President Obama said at a White House ceremony unveiling a new economic advisory board. "If we drag our feet and fail to act, this crisis will turn into a catastrophe."

Can someone explain to me how if we don't get a bill this weekend it's going to make a wit of difference? If a bill is passed tonight, which it won't, will the umemployment numbers magically fall in March? I'd rather take a few weeks and get it right than rush through something like they did the TARP bill and end up with a mess. I hope the GOP Senators stand as firm as their House conterparts did in saying we won't pass something full of pork and promises just to say we did something.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9832
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:49 am

Still too big and pork-laden. This entire bill should contain only things that can be completed within 1 year, plus tax relief. The total should not be more than about $400 million. If in jan-2010 there is justification for more short- term stimulus, it can be discussed then.

The GOP should stick to it's guns and oppose this boondoggle.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
mham001
Posts: 4233
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:49 am

Yes, Im sure we will continue to hear that it must be passed TODAY or the sky will fall. Obama loses all credibility with that one. Nothing wrong with letting everybody read it and think about it over the weekend...unless its really about ramming their pet projects through under the guise of "creating jobs".

Rushing is exactly what happened the last time (thanks pelosi) and nobody thought to make a provision that the banks would have to account for the money. No more stupid mistakes like that one.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:06 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 1):
Can someone explain to me how if we don't get a bill this weekend it's going to make a wit of difference? If a bill is passed tonight

Even if the vote passes it doesn't go to Obama yet. It goes to committee and then back to the house and then through the senate again.

Quoting DXing (Reply 1):
will the umemployment numbers magically fall in March? I'd rather take a few weeks and get it right than rush through something like they did the TARP bill and end up with a mess. I hope the GOP Senators stand as firm as their House conterparts did in saying we won't pass something full of pork and promises just to say we did something.

Well said, This bill IMO will slightly help if help at all. The real difference is getting the original TARP money that was given to the banks to begin to be lent again and of course for Obama to shut his mouth. What he has done with his scare mongering has been deplorable and very unpresidential to say the least. I am glad Lindsey Graham called him out viciously yesterday and he was spot on. Obama didn't lead through this process, he attempted to scare. At this point I would have rather elected Ben Stein to the white house because he seems to have a better grasp on the economy than Obama does. OH WAIT did you see his newest economic adviser? That idiot from GE, yea he has done wonders with that company lately and does business with Iran. Stand up guy. Good lord all of you that voted for Obama will be held to task if he continues along the path he has so far because it is totally embarassing and is not going to improve us here or abroad I can tell you that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Still too big and pork-laden. This entire bill should contain only things that can be completed within 1 year, plus tax relief. The total should not be more than about $400 million. If in jan-2010 there is justification for more short- term stimulus, it can be discussed then.

The GOP should stick to it's guns and oppose this boondoggle.

Yea I know but they are dragging Ted out of bed and that left leaning Republican from Maine and the other one will vote for it so it may be moot now.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 3):
Yes, Im sure we will continue to hear that it must be passed TODAY or the sky will fall. Obama loses all credibility with that one. Nothing wrong with letting everybody read it and think about it over the weekend...unless its really about ramming their pet projects through under the guise of "creating jobs

Obama is losing much more credibility, didn't he say no more lobbyists? Well this gem from GE who is a new advisor is a huge lobbyist. Well done Obama, change we can believe in. As long as it doesn't have to be put into practice.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:43 am

With this bill pared down to "only" $780B, we are still screwed. The news media (Fox News on right now) is saying this bill has 40% of it as "tax cuts". But, no one can say what those tax cuts are. The other 60% of the bill is spending.

Congress has yet to tell us how they plan to pay for this bill. Will they borrow more money from China, Saudia Arabia, and Japan? At what interest rate? Just on this bill, a 4% interest is $31.2B per year. What does that do to the loan interest rate for the rest of us (that is if we can get loans)? Are they simply going to print the money? That will really devalue the dollar even more, and cause inflation, which we cannot afford right now.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 3):
Rushing is exactly what happened the last time (thanks pelosi) and nobody thought to make a provision that the banks would have to account for the money. No more stupid mistakes like that one.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Still too big and pork-laden. This entire bill should contain only things that can be completed within 1 year, plus tax relief.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The GOP should stick to it's guns and oppose this boondoggle.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4260
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:03 am

I wonder if the "buy American" clause is still in it. If it is and it passes we could a NAFTA trade war.
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:18 am

$88 million for building Milwaukee public schools, when attendance has been dropping solidly and 15 schools are currently vacant. The true definition of pork-barrel legislation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2009/02/05/AR2009020502766.html
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:36 am

Looks like some traitors gave in and switched sides on the bill. I liked the McCain version.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:57 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 6):
I wonder if the "buy American" clause is still in it. If it is and it passes we could a NAFTA trade war.

From what I have read there will not be anything that affects any current trade agreement.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
Obama is losing much more credibility, didn't he say no more lobbyists? Well this gem from GE who is a new advisor is a huge lobbyist. Well done Obama, change we can believe in. As long as it doesn't have to be put into practice.

His daily doom and gloom speeches are becoming very annoying. And as for his transparency well the long line of lobbyist and tax cheats coming in the front door is very disapointing.
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:03 pm



Quoting N328KF (Reply 8):
Looks like some traitors gave in and switched sides on the bill.

11 House Democrats opposed the bill since the first vote, I believe.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:05 pm



Quoting N328KF (Reply 8):
Looks like some traitors gave in and switched sides on the bill. I liked the McCain version.

The same 3 that always eventually do on financial matters. They still have a chance to redeem themselves and vote no on the full vote.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:17 pm

Holy cow!
Where the heck are they going to find the money for this new "stimulus package"?
Are they going to ask the Fed to run the $$$$$ printing machines?
How many years will it take the US tax payers to pay it all back, this one plus the others, plus the "stimulus packages" to come...

Not everyone agrees that this is the right way to go.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker...rs=^dji,^gspc,QQQQ,SPY,DIA,TLT,UDN

Peter Schiff: Stimulus Bill Will Lead to "Unmitigated Disaster"

The fiscal stimulus bill being debated in Congress not only won't help the economy, it will make the recession much worse, says Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital.

Schiff scoffs at the notion the economic decline is starting to level off and concedes no government action means a "terrible" recession. But the path of increased government intervention will lead to "unmitigated disaster," says Schiff, who gained notoriety in 2007-08 for his prescient calls on the housing bubble and U.S. stocks.

 Yeah sure
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:03 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 10):
11 House Democrats opposed the bill since the first vote, I believe.

I was almost floored when Feinsten got up there and said she was very unhappy with it. That was amazing.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 9):
His daily doom and gloom speeches are becoming very annoying. And as for his transparency well the long line of lobbyist and tax cheats coming in the front door is very disapointing

Got to tell you I am still shocked he brought that loon from GE on board. I wouldn't let that guy balance my checkbook and he is a huge lobbyist. I guess Obama gives his voters very little credit because he is taking them for fools. He pounded the word "change" into the ground and into their brainwashed heads and he is just doing the polar opposite in practice. Sad.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Not everyone agrees that this is the right way to go.

Many think this is a mistake, Ben Stein too.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Schiff scoffs at the notion the economic decline is starting to level off and concedes no government action means a "terrible" recession. But the path of increased government intervention will lead to "unmitigated disaster," says Schiff, who gained notoriety in 2007-08 for his prescient calls on the housing bubble and U.S. stocks.

A big part of the problem is Obama. He has to stop scaring the shit out of people. Confidence is a huge part of this and if shuts his mouth and gets these banks who screwed us by taking the TARP money and sitting on it to begin lending across the board it will get people buying, businesses operating. Then by slashing taxes accross the board we would begin to improve. I am shocked he has put all his chips in two weeks into his presidency and if this goes bad he can plan on going back to Illinois to hang out with Blago.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:30 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
A big part of the problem is Obama.

I thought he was seen as the new Messiah who would bring solutions to all of the current problems in the US?

He sure had a huge crowd of worshippers at his inauguration.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billi

Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:05 pm

If I were a Republican House member, I'd start hedging my bets.

If - as seems likely - the bill goes through, it isn't going to be pretty if that House member has to go back to his district, tell them it is all pork - but that they're not getting any.

I'd start acting a bit bipartisan, if I were a Republican House member, and fight for as much as I could get for my district.

What goes around comes around.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 14):
I thought he was seen as the new Messiah who would bring solutions to all of the current problems in the US?

Obviously, you haven't listened to him.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:24 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 14):
I thought he was seen as the new Messiah who would bring solutions to all of the current problems in the US?

Obviously, you haven't listened to him.

Well... Mr President Obama better not start doing the wrong things right when he begins his term. Then we will be left to wonder what the rest of his 4 years term will be like... especially with all the important issues that are awaiting him whether about the U.S. and global scale.  Confused
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billi

Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
Well... Mr President Obama better not start doing the wrong things right when he begins his term.

That's quite different from calling him, sneeringly, a "messiah" - and I don't see tnat's he's done too much wrong.

 confused 

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:28 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
If - as seems likely - the bill goes through, it isn't going to be pretty if that House member has to go back to his district, tell them it is all pork - but that they're not getting any.

I'd rather get nothing than support this piece of socialism.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
I'd start acting a bit bipartisan,

At last count there were now 49 democrats in the House that don't like the Senate version of the bill since it is even more expensive than the one they passed!

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
and I don't see tnat's he's done too much wrong.

I don't see that he's done much of anything other than play Larry the cable guy and siit down at 1600 yelling "Get Er Done"!!!! He certainly hasn't provided any sort of leadership nor been an intergral part of the negotiations. So far it's been the politics of the old where the President lets the old bulls on the hill dictate what will be in the bill and what won't.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billi

Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:30 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
I'd rather get nothing than support this piece of socialism.

Your choice. I can't imagine that some of the newly unemployed are as ideologically pure as you, but anything's possible.

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
At last count there were now 49 democrats in the House that don't like the Senate version of the bill since it is even more expensive than the one they passed!

That isn't why they don't like it.

Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
don't see that he's done much of anything other than play Larry the cable guy and siit down at 1600 yelling "Get Er Done"!!!!

I am not falling over in shock that you think that.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:46 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
I guess Obama gives his voters very little credit because he is taking them for fools. He pounded the word "change" into the ground and into their brainwashed heads and he is just doing the polar opposite in practice.

We are getting changed, that is for sure. Even McCain isn't looking so bad now......

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Not everyone agrees that this is the right way to go.



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Many think this is a mistake, Ben Stein too.



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
if this goes bad he can plan on going back to Illinois to hang out with Blago.

Even the US Government thinks this stimulus bill is a big mistake. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates this senate plan could reduce the GDP by 0.1% to 0.3% by 2019. The house version of the bill would be about the same amount.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...a-stimulus-harmful-over-long-haul/

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 14):
I thought he was seen as the new Messiah who would bring solutions to all of the current problems in the US?

Obviously, you haven't listened to him.

Yes we can (have).

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
I don't see tnat's he's done too much wrong.

Looking at the US from NZ, you wouldn't see to much. Try watching from Texas. It is eye opening.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
If I were a Republican House member, I'd start hedging my bets.

If - as seems likely - the bill goes through, it isn't going to be pretty if that House member has to go back to his district, tell them it is all pork - but that they're not getting any.

I'd start acting a bit bipartisan, if I were a Republican House member, and fight for as much as I could get for my district.

Obviously you don't know much about US politics. Republicans are mostly conservitives, and work for reduced taxes for their districts. It is usually the Democrats that bring the new post office building to their district.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billi

Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:58 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Even McCain isn't looking so bad now......

I'll be very interested to see if he ever explains his flip-flop on, say, rural broadband.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Looking at the US from NZ, you wouldn't see to much. Try watching from Texas. It is eye opening.

I am always amused by that assumption. Every dime I earn, I earn in the US. Every dime of tax I pay, I pay in the US.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Obviously you don't know much about US politics. Republicans are mostly conservitives, and work for reduced taxes for their districts. It is usually the Democrats that bring the new post office building to their district.

I'm not the one who suggested the idea, but a rather respected (at least by many) political commentator in the United States.

But are you suggesting that Republican Congress people have never brought home the pork?

 confused 

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:22 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
I can't imagine that some of the newly unemployed are as ideologically pure as you, but anything's possible.

Depending on where you live, a part time job most likely would earn you more than an unemployment check for an average income. I don't know that I would want to trust my vehicle and my life to a bridge that had either been built, or repaired, by an unemployed financial sector person with no previous construction experience. At least the several million dollar water park, in Florida of all places, that was part of the original Senate bill has been tossed out. This isn't really a piece of legislation, it's a piece of work. Shoddily done and rammed down the citizens throats without adequate explanation as to its varied contents.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billi

Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:54 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
Depending on where you live, a part time job most likely would earn you more than an unemployment check for an average income.

I'm pleased to see your concern for the 600,000 who lost their jobs in January.

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
I don't know that I would want to trust my vehicle and my life to a bridge that had either been built, or repaired, by an unemployed financial sector person with no previous construction experience.

Have any financial sector people been employed to build bridges?

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
At least the several million dollar water park, in Florida of all places, that was part of the original Senate bill has been tossed out.

A lot of stuff has been tossed out in the Senate, including one element of core (Democratic) belief, which is partly why some of the House members are unhappy. See above, post #21.

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
Shoddily done and rammed down the citizens throats without adequate explanation as to its varied contents.

I would never try to persuade you from your opinion. I don't have so long left to live.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:06 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
I'm pleased to see your concern for the 600,000 who lost their jobs in January.

Recessions come and go. All the clamor that this is a dire event and if something isn't done by the end of this weekend catastrophe awaits is just the usual liberal "crisis" mode which they feel is the only way in which to get things done. For a party that has complained about the use of fear as a political tool they certainly have no qualms about using the tactic for themselves.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
Have any financial sector people been employed to build bridges?

The stimulus package has yet to pass doesn't it? But as several of our other forum members have argued, better a financial worker trying to weld/shovel/pave than collecting an unemployment check.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billi

Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:25 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 24):
But as several of our other forum members have argued, better a financial worker trying to weld/shovel/pave than collecting an unemployment check.

I assume that building bridges requires at least some staff - in the accounts department, say - who have some knowledge of finance.

But that's just me. I could be wrong.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 25):
I assume that building bridges requires at least some staff - in the accounts department

And just how many of them do you think they'll need? I'd be willing to be the accounting staff at the construction company is probably able to handle most if not all the extra workers, you know, the ones trying desperately to develop calluses on their hands.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Republicans are mostly conservitives, and work for reduced taxes for their districts. It is usually the Democrats that bring the new post office building to their district.

Why then are most of the welfare states (states that take more from the federal gov't than they pay in) states with Republican majorities?

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
I don't know that I would want to trust my vehicle and my life to a bridge that had either been built, or repaired, by an unemployed financial sector person with no previous construction experience.

Agreed. Though if Republicans had their way, we just wouldn't invest in repairing bridges at all...we'd just let them collapse.
 
seb146
Posts: 13917
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:01 pm

I find it very interesting that the ones that are arguing so hard against this stimulus bill are the same ones that lowered taxes and spent obscene amounts of money with no regard for doing anything about it or how it effects the little guy. But, when corporations started failing, we have to do something now or the country is doomed! Let's just keep spending and borrowing from other countries, then tell our own people to be self-reliant. Then, they all turn on each other.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:09 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 26):
And just how many of them do you think they'll need?

I dunno, I've never built a bridge. But I think your image of accountants wielding pick-axes is very 1920's.

I am told that building bridges - these days - requires small armies of people who have never seen a pick-axe.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:13 pm



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
Agreed. Though if Republicans had their way, we just wouldn't invest in repairing bridges at all...we'd just let them collapse.

Proof? It's not infrastructure spending that is at the core of the problem many GOP members have with the bill. It's things like payoffs to ACORN and other pet projects that wouldn't see the light of day unless hidden in the shadows of a massive bill like this. I'd be interested to know the true cost invovled in just the infrastructure projects. Make them stand alone, not be part of some nefarious payments to the states and lets see how much that bill gets paired down.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
I find it very interesting that the ones that are arguing so hard against this stimulus bill are the same ones that lowered taxes and spent obscene amounts of money with no regard

That wouldn't be fiscal conservatives.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
But, when corporations started failing, we have to do something now or the country is doomed!

Fiscal conservatives were only to happy to let nature take its course. Folks like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were leading the way for a bail out bill on Capitol Hill.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
Let's just keep spending and borrowing from other countries,

Fiscal conservatives don't agree with that either.

I think each and every piece of spending should be listed in order of expenditure in the every paper in the country and posted clearly on the internet for all to see. Not couched in legalize in a bill that is almost a foot high when the paper is piled up. Let everyone get a good look at who and what is getting how much. I have a sneaking feeling that support for this bill as it stands in the publics eye would collapse when some of the stranger "stimulus" items came to light.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
seb146
Posts: 13917
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:18 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 30):
It's things like payoffs to ACORN and other pet projects that wouldn't see the light of day unless hidden in the shadows of a massive bill like this

The way it was explained to me is: States would get a set amount. From that amount, each state would decide how much would go towards things like transportation, health care, and so on. Since, in some states, ACORN can apply as an orginization that helps with things like housing assistance and food assistance, they may be eligible for a small amout from the state. But, that would be up to the individual state and, also, if ACORN applies for the money.

Quoting DXing (Reply 30):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
I find it very interesting that the ones that are arguing so hard against this stimulus bill are the same ones that lowered taxes and spent obscene amounts of money with no regard

That wouldn't be fiscal conservatives.

No, that would be Republicans and followers of Bush.

Quoting DXing (Reply 30):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
Let's just keep spending and borrowing from other countries,

Fiscal conservatives don't agree with that either.

Neither did Bush or his cronies a.k.a. neo-cons and Republicans. Republicans, which controlled Congress and spending from 2000-2006, did not want to rock the boat. They did not want to make waves and put party before country. They thought borrow and spend was just the thing. They completely abandoned their fiscal conservatism and went on a spending spree the likes has never been seen. They could have stood up to the President. They could have done the right thing. But, they did what the other neo-cons wanted. And here we are today. Blaming Obama and the Dems for the recession. Remember the whole "nuclear option" and the "Democratic obstructionists" that were filibustering bills they thought were wrong? Now, the filibuster is just the greatest thing ever. And Dems are flip-floppers?
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 6019
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:36 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 24):
Recessions come and go. All the clamor that this is a dire event and if something isn't done by the end of this weekend catastrophe awaits is just the usual liberal "crisis" mode which they feel is the only way in which to get things done. For a party that has complained about the use of fear as a political tool they certainly have no qualms about using the tactic for themselves.

The biggest difference this time is how interconnected the worlds financial system is now and how dependent the USA is on foreign markets, investment, and products. Throughout it's history the USA has not experienced this but free trade, transportation, and communication systems have developed to make this the reality (which is a good thing). And the problem now is that all the markets are in decline, so without something to stop/slow it, it will spiral down much farther and for better of worse the world looks to the USA to be the lead.

Quoting DXing (Reply 24):
The stimulus package has yet to pass doesn't it? But as several of our other forum members have argued, better a financial worker trying to weld/shovel/pave than collecting an unemployment check.

No offense, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying that it is better to have "a financial worker trying to weld/shovel/pave than collecting an unemployment check" than not?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 27):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Republicans are mostly conservitives, and work for reduced taxes for their districts. It is usually the Democrats that bring the new post office building to their district.

Why then are most of the welfare states (states that take more from the federal gov't than they pay in) states with Republican majorities?

Interesting stat. The real question is whether these areas have been Republican represented for a while or whether they recently elected Rep's to lift them out of the situation that poor policy and leadership got them into.

Quoting DXing (Reply 30):
That wouldn't be fiscal conservatives.



Quoting DXing (Reply 30):
Fiscal conservatives were only to happy to let nature take its course. Folks like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were leading the way for a bail out bill on Capitol Hill.

Unfortunately, people who supported Bush and his administration can not camouflage themselves with the "fiscal conservatives" statement if they did not stand against the profligate spending of the last eight years and the fact that Bush never vetoed a budget for fiscal irresponsibility.

DX I do believe that you are a fiscal conservative but that blanket does not give cover if you did not openly stand against budget abuses of the last eight years (I don't know if you did this and I do not think the next eight years will be better) The problem is many "Republicans" (I'd call them RINO's but Rep's always seem to want to throw that on people who are not socially/religiously conservative) did not stand up in opposition to overspending.

The whole lot needs to be thrown out and new true limited government, non-religion focused, fiscal conservative Republicans supported and elected.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:17 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
Interesting stat. The real question is whether these areas have been Republican represented for a while or whether they recently elected Rep's to lift them out of the situation that poor policy and leadership got them into.

Mostly, they are states that have been Republican for a long time. Most of them are relatively poor states with smaller populations, but they are the backbone of support for the Republicans.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

As you can see, most of the worst offenders are states that have historically been Republican leaning. On the other hand, many of the strongest Democratic states are the ones that are paying for all the welfare.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:04 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 29):
I am told that building bridges - these days - requires small armies of people who have never seen a pick-axe.

As I have argued and been told I don't know what I'm talking about by another member who seems to think it is all done manually.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
No, that would be Republicans and followers of Bush.

Just as there are democrats that don't agree with the President on the stimulus bill there were republicans that didn't agree with the Presidents domestic spending, and I am one of them.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
Blaming Obama and the Dems for the recession.

Exactly who has blamed President Obama for the recession? Democrats? Certain ones certainly had a big help in getting it started but it goes farther than politics.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
"Democratic obstructionists" that were filibustering bills they thought were wrong?

You mean every bill and every appointment.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
Are you saying that it is better to have "a financial worker trying to weld/shovel/pave than collecting an unemployment check" than not?

No, others are. In the end though its work for welfare.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
Unfortunately, people who supported Bush and his administration can not camouflage themselves with the "fiscal conservatives" statement if they did not stand against the profligate spending of the last eight years and the fact that Bush never vetoed a budget for fiscal irresponsibility.

Anyone who blindly supports any elected leader has issues. However, in order to support an elected official you have to agree with more of what they stand for than not. When it came to national security and many domestic agenda's to include reforming social security and tax cuts I did agree with the former President. When he stood for election I certainly agreed with his agenda more than his two opponents.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
DX I do believe that you are a fiscal conservative but that blanket does not give cover if you did not openly stand against budget abuses of the last eight years

I've stood against every budget for the past 31 years. They are all shams hiding massive amounts of debt.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 33):
As you can see, most of the worst offenders are states that have historically been Republican leaning. On the other hand, many of the strongest Democratic states are the ones that are paying for all the welfare.

Where in that link does it say that money is used soley for "welfare"? If I remember correctly the Governor and both U.S. Senators from New Mexico are members of the democratic party. Several of the other States are split although WV is firmly democratic. Care to try again?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billi

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:22 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
As I have argued and been told I don't know what I'm talking about by another member who seems to think it is all done manually.

Then I have no what your point was when you said to me:

Quoting DXing (Reply 22):
I don't know that I would want to trust my vehicle and my life to a bridge that had either been built, or repaired, by an unemployed financial sector person with no previous construction experience.

Whatever debates or disagreements you have with other members are between you and those other members.  confused 

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:45 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
Where in that link does it say that money is used soley for "welfare"?

Welfare comes in many forms. For example, agricultural subsidies are a form of welfare and factor into this analysis. But regardless of how the money is used, the bottomline is that many states (that are heavily Republican) take far more from the government than they give.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
If I remember correctly the Governor and both U.S. Senators from New Mexico are members of the democratic party. Several of the other States are split although WV is firmly democratic. Care to try again?

Of course there are exceptions, but the welfare states have a distinctly Republican slant to them. And the states paying the most in have a distinctly Democratic lean.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:03 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
Then I have no what your point was when you said to me:

According the myth as now being put forth, we have an infrastructure that is set to completely collapse any day now if we don't do something about it yesterday. According to the plan that the President wants to talk about much of the stimulus, but less and less as each day reveals yet another new layer of pork barrel spending, would go to repairing that doomed infrastructure using those that have lost their jobs of which many are in the financial sector. Now I don't think that will happen since I don't see someone who wants an office job rushing out to take on an outdoor construction job, disregarding completely the skill sets involved, especially if an unemployment check is still available. So when I hear how some think that umemployed people will just rush out to get one of these jobs my level of doubt goes up.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
But regardless of how the money is used, the bottomline is that many states (that are heavily Republican) take far more from the government than they give.

As shown the number one State is democratic. The rest is a pretty even split when you look at the Congressional make up. States that have long standing represenatives and Senators get more dollars since they are at the top of the food chain in seniority. Unfortunately that has been how many elected officials, and even worse their constitutents, a have gauged how well they serve and are served.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Of course there are exceptions, but the welfare states have a distinctly Republican slant to them.

So now it's just a slant that matters? I wonder how many of the top 5% or income tax payers, you know, the ones that pay just over 50% of all income taxes in this country have a republican slant? You know, the ones that support the blue state concentrations?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Welfare comes in many forms.

Yes it does and I hear that the democrats want to expand it as fast as possible.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Of course there are exceptions,

So much for that map.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:12 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
So when I hear how some think that umemployed people will just rush out to get one of these jobs my level of doubt goes up.

I still have no idea what that has to do with anything I have said.

I have not advocated the idea of accountants doing manual labor, I have said exactly the opposite - that they would not do it, because there was no need.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:25 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 38):
I have not advocated the idea of accountants doing manual labor, I have said exactly the opposite - that they would not do it, because there was no need.

And we have been in agreement all along. As I have explained several times now....

Quoting DXing (Reply 24):
But as several of our other forum members have argued, better a financial worker trying to weld/shovel/pave than collecting an unemployment check.



Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 29):
I am told that building bridges - these days - requires small armies of people who have never seen a pick-axe.

As I have argued and been told I don't know what I'm talking about by another member who seems to think it is all done manually.

Yet you seem to keep picking on that one comment.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
Whatever debates or disagreements you have with other members are between you and those other members.

Then, as you can see, I explained where that comment came from long ago yet you continue to comment on it.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:04 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 39):
And we have been in agreement all along. As I have explained several times now....

Not the way I read it (see your posts #22 and #26), but if you agree now, great.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
seb146
Posts: 13917
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:03 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
there were republicans that didn't agree with the Presidents domestic spending, and I am one of them.

IIRC, about the only thing Republicans disagreed with Bush on, to some extent, was his version of a stimulus. Even that was not completely opposed by all Republicans. Other than that, there were no vetos for the first six years of his term. Republican controlled Congress gave him anything and everything he wanted and he signed every single spending bill that crossed his desk.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
Exactly who has blamed President Obama for the recession?

Pundits and some Republican leaders started in early November. Want facts? Just go back and look for yourself.

Quoting DXing (Reply 34):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
"Democratic obstructionists" that were filibustering bills they thought were wrong?

You mean every bill and every appointment.

Because of lock-step wreckless spending and people that were only qualified to judge horse shows being nominated to run FEMA? Things like that? Judges being elevated to Chief Justice before his nomiation was confirmed?
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:22 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The GOP should stick to it's guns and oppose this boondoggle.

Vote No ... and make it a Democratic tiger trap. But it does not matter , people like me and other business people will keep fighting and the economy will start to come back ... and of course it will be touted by Reid and Pelosi as a huge success.

A wild card here is that the press will be soundly behind Obama . So any glimmer of light will be praised and raised to the unmatched brilliance of "the one" .

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Republican controlled Congress gave him anything and everything he wanted and he signed every single spending bill that crossed his desk.

The devil is in the details , spending in the Bush budgets was not the same. More angled towards military , security items , than too condoms and community organizer payoffs.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:59 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
IIRC, about the only thing Republicans disagreed with Bush on, to some extent, was his version of a stimulus.

Saying that "Republicans disagreed" carries the same weight as saying that "Democrats agree" with President Obama. There were 11 in the House that did not agree but somehow they get lost in the shuffle. It's generalizing, something you are getting very good at.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Other than that, there were no vetos for the first six years of his term.

Which is more of a dig on President Bush since he signed bills I was personally opposed to due to the spending involved.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Republican controlled Congress gave him anything and everything he wanted and he signed every single spending bill that crossed his desk.

I guess the same could be said for the last couple of years of the Clinton administration since he signed those budget bills as well as welfare reform with nary a negative comment.
Again, you are generalizing.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Pundits and some Republican leaders started in early November.

Pundits carry what weight legally? What Republicans, be specific.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Because of lock-step wreckless spending and people that were only qualified to judge horse shows being nominated to run FEMA?

As opposed to the tax cheat whom we are led to believe is the only person in the United States that can save the Treasury? Yet to oppose him was to be helping to create a "catastrophe"? So far all I have seen in this administration is a determination to outspend the last one.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:15 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 9):
His daily doom and gloom speeches are becoming very annoying.

Wait a sec...

I thought we all chose HOPE and CHANGE and not panic, chaos and malaise...

Am I wrong? Paging Jimmy Carter. I'm waiting for Obama to ask me to wear a sweater instead of turning my heat up.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:27 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
So now it's just a slant that matters? I wonder how many of the top 5% or income tax payers, you know, the ones that pay just over 50% of all income taxes in this country have a republican slant? You know, the ones that support the blue state concentrations?

You can nitpick all you want, but the reality is that the "fiscal conservative" is largely a myth. It's a lot of talk that has NEVER been acted upon, largely because most conservatives actually running for office know that it won't get them elected. They also know that if they don't bring home the pork, they won't get re-elected.

Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
Yes it does and I hear that the democrats want to expand it as fast as possible.

No faster than the Republicans expanded their own welfare programs.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42):
More angled towards military , security items , than too condoms and community organizer payoffs.

Is a dollar spent on wasteful defense projects any worse than a dollar spent on wasteful domestic projects? You're still wasting money either way and getting little in return.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:39 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 9):
His daily doom and gloom speeches are becoming very annoying.

Absolutely. The continued "all is lost" if we don't sign on to a stimulus bill is beginning to sound a little suspicious as well. I'm waiting for the "but wait that's not all" tag line since word is now filtering out from our Tax Cheat....er TresSec that a second bank bailout bill, even larger than the first will be necessary soon.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:17 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 46):
The continued "all is lost" if we don't sign on to a stimulus bill is beginning to sound a little suspicious as well.

Oh, I dunno.

Rupert Murdoch is hardly pro-Obama - he owns Fox News - and he says the economy is worse than we thought:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2546-NY-Ad...s-Economy-is-worse-than-we-thought

"Rupert Murdoch says 'Economy is worse than we thought"

http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=14852665

"It is the worst global economic crisis since News Corp was formed 50 years ago," Murdoch, chairman and chief executive, said on a conference call with analysts after the company posted its biggest ever quarterly net loss."

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:09 am



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
You can nitpick all you want, but the reality is that the "fiscal conservative" is largely a myth.

The fiscal conservative is a small minority. That is the true problem.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
. It's a lot of talk that has NEVER been acted upon,

Correct. we've never cut taxes have we?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
They also know that if they don't bring home the pork, they won't get re-elected.

Those are not fiscal conservatives.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
No faster than the Republicans expanded their own welfare programs.

Which would be......

Quoting Mariner (Reply 47):
It is the worst global economic crisis since News Corp was formed 50 years ago," Murdoch, chairman and chief executive, said on a conference call with analysts after the company posted its biggest ever quarterly net loss."

Betcha he sold some newspapers and ad revenue with that headline. In reality our national unemployment rate is still well below 1932 levels and still slightly below 1982 levels. Interest rates are still substantially below 1982 levels. About the only negative difference between 1932, 1982, and 2009 is the amount of debt the government is about to go into.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18191
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Compromise Stimulus Bill Reached.... $780billion

Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:19 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 48):
In reality our national unemployment rate is still well below 1932 levels and still slightly below 1982 levels.

I don't see that makes it "good."  confused 

mariner
aeternum nauta

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aesma, ER757, TheF15Ace and 11 guests