Beaucaire
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Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:05 pm

..and then they attacked Gaza - and a draft agreement that would have basically needed just some minor changes was "caduc"..
Erdogan had lengthy three-way indirect talks between Olmert and Assad just hours befor the initial attacks came.He was not informed by the Israeli side about the forthcomming raids.
An interesting article by Haaretz that could be part of the history-book's tales on how opportunities are missed..and that sheds some light on his behaviour in Davos,when he abandoned the panel discussion with Perez..
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1063805.html
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ALexeu
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:07 pm

What is your opinion on Golan Heights? The territory of Syria occupied by Israel.

I think that Israel and Syria will never find peaceful solution as long as Golan Heights is not returned to Syria.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:24 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 1):
What is your opinion on Golan Heights

If there is a peace accord then it should be returned to Syria.Simple.
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NAV20
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:03 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 2):
If there is a peace accord then it should be returned to Syria.Simple.

Not 'simple' any more, SOBH151. I only found out recently (thanks to the Internet) that the Israeli Government didn't just 'occupy' the Golan Heights - they knocked down all the buildings, 're-subdivided' all the land, and then sold it (technically, ground-leased it) to Israeli settlers.

They've done exactly the same thing in all the other 'territories' occupied during the 1967 War, and in land seized since.

So any 'deal' with Syria will involve massive compensation payments both to the 'settlers' who were leased land that didn't belong to Israel, AND the Syrians who were driven out and dispossessed, and had their houses knocked down.......

I honestly can't see any Israeli government, however 'peace-minded' it may claim to be, facing up to a multi-million-dollar bill like that. To say nothing of turning the Israeli Army loose on all those militant 'settlers' who've paid good money for the land they occupy........

I expect any new Israeli government to go on doing what ALL Israeli governments have been doing for decades. Just 'play for time'.......
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:17 pm

Well NAV20 then the Israeli government should pay for there mistakes.They sold a land that they do not own.As for playing foe time, what's new.They did that with Egypt in the case of Taba and they lost in int'l court.If Israel really wants peace then she have to find a way.
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radiopolitic
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:32 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
and that sheds some light on his behaviour in Davos,when he abandoned the panel discussion with Perez..

While this may have played a part in his actions at Davos. He may have used this to bolster his domestic popularity, which had fallen in recent months, in light of coming municipal elections. It has definitely worked.

Probably just utilized a good opportunity.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:36 pm



Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 5):
Probably just utilized a good opportunity.

Then he is a very smart politician.Good for him.
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avi
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:13 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks...

Do you have any idea how many times in the past we heard it?
It was the same thing with Rabin, Netanyahu, Barak and now Olmert. So what is really new?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 4):
Well NAV20 then the Israeli government should pay for there mistakes

What about the Arab countries paying for them mistakes (or do you think they are all "angels")?
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Beaucaire
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:02 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 7):
So what is really new?

Bashar Assad is new !
His father was a blockhead but Bashar might actually manage to drive Syria out of it's corner and bring it back into the list of "normal" countries.If you don't see that things are changing in Damascus - you are either blindfolded or don't want to see.
Syria will have it's stock exchange-unthinkable under the old Assad !
Relations with Lebanon become less tense -unthinkable under his father!
The USA will send an ambassador again to Syria ..
But there is abviously relativaly biased information about Syria available in Israel,since not to many Israelis visit Syria.
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avi
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:46 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
But there is abviously relativaly biased information about Syria available in Israel...

I wonder why...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
...since not to many Israelis visit Syria

The problems are with the information Israelis who did "visit" Syria lately brought back.



One more thing you forgot to mention is that in the old Assad days it was unthinkable that Hezbollah would make a joke out of Syria, that they will do what ever they want.
Basically, Nasrallah does to young Assad what his father did to him.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:52 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 7):
What about the Arab countries paying for them mistakes (or do you think they are all "angels")?

Not really,but neither side is.But i am talking about the Golan heights and what legal rights does the government of Israel have to sell lands that she does not own.
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avi
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
Not really,but neither side is

No, neither side is.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
But i am talking about the Golan heights and what legal rights does the government of Israel have to sell lands that she does not own.

The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact). The Druze in the Golan can elect and can be elected (and one of them was elected for the Knesset this week. Do you want to guess in which party? The answer will probably shock you). Yet, I want to remind you that there is no big difference between the situation in the Golan Heights and what was in Sinai or the Gaza Strip and we completely withdrew from both of them so there are no real problems if we decide to withdraw from the Golan (well, there are but we can overcome them).
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:57 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact).



Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
so there are no real problems if we decide to withdraw from the Golan (well, there are but we can overcome them).

OK.So you control the Golan Heights after you occupied it in the 67 war.Fine.Now if there is a peace accord you should return it to Syria as you did with the Sinai and Egypt.We are in agreement on those 2 points.Now what to do about the settlers is Israel problem and not Syria.Do we agree on that?
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avi
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:01 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12):
Now what to do about the settlers is Israel problem and not Syria.Do we agree on that?

Who ever said it should be / will be Syria problem?
When Israel withdrew from Sinai, it evacuates the settlers. We didn't leave them there.
When Israel withdrew from the GS, it evacuates the settlers. We didn't leave them there.
Why do you even ask?
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:16 am



Quoting Avi (Reply 13):
Why do you even ask?

If only our governments can agree as we do.Life will be great.Shalom
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NAV20
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:10 am



Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact).

That's an interesting notion, Avi.

On the same principle, can Germany therefore claim that most of Western Europe, the Balkans, and a good part of Russia is 'theirs'? Or the Japanese make the same claim relating to most of the Pacific?

After all, they occupied all those places for some years? And the Germans even established 'settlers' in the areas they captured and controlled - just as Israel has been doing?
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NIKV69
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:15 am



Quoting Avi (Reply 7):
What about the Arab countries paying for them mistakes (or do you think they are all "angels")?

What it boils down too is the Arab countries can't control or don't want to control the radical part of their population that can't stop lobbing bombs or strapping bombs to 12 year old girls. No talking is ever going to help. We are just going to waste more time with Obama and Iran now when we should just let Isreal do what has to be done. Everybody is to blame, nobody is to blame etc. Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone. If Netanyahu gets power he will get real heavy. Maybe it's time.
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NAV20
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:33 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone. If Netanyahu gets power he will get real heavy. Maybe it's time.

NIKV69 - what exactly do you have in mind? Some sort of 'Endloesung', as Hitler called it?

A 'Final Solution'?
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mariner
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:51 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone.

Who?

There is no one person that can be "removed" to solve this problem.

For decades Arafat was demonized - oh, if only he were gone - and now he is gone and the problem is still there.

No amount of violence is going to resolve this.

As to "peaceful" answers, if Natanyahu still believes in the Jordanian Solution that just pushes the problem across the river and it will come back on itself, because this is about land.

And sadly, once upon a time, Jews and Arabs did live fairly peaceably together, in Palestine, under the Ottoman Empire.

mariner
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NIKV69
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:20 am



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
NIKV69 - what exactly do you have in mind? Some sort of 'Endloesung', as Hitler called it?

Uhhhh no.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
There is no one person that can be "removed" to solve this problem.

Never said there was.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
No amount of violence is going to resolve this.

No, because as long as Islam as a whole tolerates the violence we will have this cycle all over again.
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:32 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
Never said there was.

Hmmm?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone.

"until someone is gone"."

Who's the someone?

mariner
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baroque
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:54 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
"until someone is gone"."

Who's the someone?

You have been told it is not someone, then presumably it is a group. Difficult to argue with Nav's conclusion of the meaning in Reply 17.
 
radiopolitic
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:29 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
Then he is a very smart politician.Good for him.

In some ways, yes. In other ways, no.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:13 am

The forthcomming visit of John Kerry to the region-including Syria- will shed some light on the Obam administrations intentions to move along in the ME peace-project.
Kerry has been visiting Damascus already in 2006 -a visit much critizised by the Bush admin. when it happened.
Truth is that there remain open questions with regards to the Hariri investigation .I still believe rugue elements within the Syrian security apparatus have been involved but not neccessarily with the consent of Assad.The attack could not have been executed without help from within the Lebanese army neither..
Kerry has the blessing of Clinton and Obama for his trip-unilike the visit of Nancy Pelosi two years ago.We should knwo relatively soon when the new US Ambassador will move into Damascus.The question of Golan will be a topic and the current admin in Washington is clearly favourable to a direct talk scenario between Jerusalem and Damascus.Even Nethanyahu knows that .
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avi
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:45 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):

Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact).

That's an interesting notion, Avi.

On the same principle, can Germany therefore claim that most of Western Europe, the Balkans, and a good part of Russia is 'theirs'? Or the Japanese make the same claim relating to most of the Pacific?

After all, they occupied all those places for some years? And the Germans even established 'settlers' in the areas they captured and controlled - just as Israel has been doing?

Did you miss the word NOW?
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:54 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 24):
Did you miss the word NOW?

No, mate. I'm sure that Germany and Japan, up to 1944, reckoned that they'd achieved some sort of 'status quo.' But, of course, they were wrong.

Remain confident that Israel will eventually have to restore the occupied territories to their rightful owners.

Call me an 'optimist' if you like. I've been called worse in my time,,,,,,,,,,  Smile
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avi
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:41 pm

Well, nothing last forever.
We do know the price of the peace with Syria. The question is what are we getting in return (peace is just a word, what's behind it)?
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:52 pm



Quoting Avi (Reply 26):
The question is what are we getting in return (peace is just a word, what's behind it)?

If ever peace between Syria and Israel ever happens then that will be an easier and more relaxed relation between the 2 countries.Syrian are well educated not too much religion extremists nor teaching and much less hatred than other countries around Israel,Lebanon excluded.
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Beaucaire
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:16 pm

Avi- Syria has never been tied to any form of Islamic fundamentalism.
The roots of the country are secular and none of any religions are prohibited within the country.
One of the darkest moments in Syrian history was certainly the Hama-massacre in 1982,when more than 7000 civilians were killed .Hafez al-Assad had an absolutely paranoid fear to have Islamic Brotherhood cells grow within Syria and got rid of them the tough way-he killed many incocent civilians but also a large part of the Islamist leaders.
That shows that albeit close to civil war,the incident demonstarates Syria's stric adherence to a laic form of ruling.
Would Syria allow a Hezbollah-style party grow on it's own soil ? Most likely not,since incompatibel with their philosophy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre
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avi
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:48 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 28):
Avi- Syria has never been tied to any form of Islamic fundamentalism.
The roots of the country are secular and none of any religions are prohibited within the country.

My dear Beaucaire,

It is true that Syria didn't let the fanatic Islam to get in (Syria protected itself) but we all know that Syria is the main bridge or pipeline between Iran and Hezbollah (and we all know what that means and who pay the price of that). That is one of the biggest problems we have with Syria.
It was very comfortable to Syria to hurt Israel (by others) from Lebanon (and not directly from the Golan Heights) and I'm sure no one was happy in Damascus when that door closed in 2006.
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Beaucaire
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:15 pm

Main concerns in Damascus currently are rather economical and less geo-strategic.
The country will have to invest about 50Billion € into new infrastructure to cope with rise in polulation,negative fallout of draught,new roads,hotels ,airports and telecom networks.
A lot of the current infrastructure is old and out-dated.The past -relative - economic isolation did not help the average Syrian to compensate with rising cost of living.
So I'm sure the countries leaders will have an open ear to proposals from the Obama admin.to bring out the country of the "terrorist" corner and grow production,trade and exports.Tourism is in it's infancy in Syria and only a very small number of visitors make it into the country.
One should look forward and not constantly back-what haped is one thing-what is needed and intended another.
I don't try to portray Syria as paradise-hell-it's not !
It's full of archaic administrative stepplestones,restrictions and retarded in many aspects.But it's moving away from it's ghosts of the past rapidly .Some foreign politicians are managing to read in between lines.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:19 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
But i am talking about the Golan heights and what legal rights does the government of Israel have to sell lands that she does not own.

According to who?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
On the same principle, can Germany therefore claim that most of Western Europe, the Balkans, and a good part of Russia is 'theirs'? Or the Japanese make the same claim relating to most of the Pacific?

Fortuantely, the good guys knocked them out of many of those areas.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 25):
Remain confident that Israel will eventually have to restore the occupied territories to their rightful owners.

Possession is 9/10 of the law.  Wink

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Some sort of 'Endloesung', as Hitler called it?

A 'Final Solution'?

Nobody wants that, don't you think?
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:21 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 31):
According to who?

International laws for a starter.All laws that i can think off,those lands belonged to people leaving there,Israel occupies,grappes the land,sells it.Very legal according to what law now?
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baroque
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:24 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 31):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 25):
Remain confident that Israel will eventually have to restore the occupied territories to their rightful owners.

Possession is 9/10 of the law.

That does not seem to be the popular theory in relation to restitution of property seized from Jewish families during WW II. Why the change in policy?
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:37 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 32):
International laws for a starter.All laws that i can think off,those lands belonged to people leaving there,Israel occupies,grappes the land,sells it.Very legal according to what law now?

Name a few. Name any that apply. Useless prattle and winded opinion is all to which it would amount.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 31):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 25):
Remain confident that Israel will eventually have to restore the occupied territories to their rightful owners.

Possession is 9/10 of the law.

That does not seem to be the popular theory in relation to restitution of property seized from Jewish families during WW II. Why the change in policy?

And what did the Jewish families do that provoked others to take their property? Invade a particular place, like, say, the Syrians did? Syria attacked, they lost land due to their own fault, that's life and you're old enough to understand.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:43 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 34):
Name a few. Name any that apply. Useless prattle and winded opinion is all to which it would amount.

OK i hope UN charters and The Hague convention is good enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_territories

Acquisition of occupied territories is incidental to a war, where the military forces of the occupying power come into the possession of territories previously held by another state. Military occupation is usually temporary; and under the subsequent articles of the Hague convention (articles 43, 44, and etc.), the status quo must be maintained pending the signing of a peace treaty, the resolution of specific conditions outlined in a peace treaty, or the formation of a new civilian government
Examples of occupied territories include Germany and Japan after World War II; Cambodia by Vietnam from 1979 until 1989; Iraq after the 2003 invasion by the United States and allied forces removed the government of Saddam Hussein from power, and the Israeli-occupied territories
If a state unilaterally declares a territory that has been under military occupation to be annexed, bodies such as the United Nations Security Council frequently describe such territories as "occupied" when that annexation is in breach of international law or not accepted by the United Nations General Assembly, even if the territory is governed through the civil laws of the state that has integrated the occupied territory into their own territories.[5][6][7][8]

[Edited 2009-02-15 05:55:01]
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Beaucaire
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:49 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 34):

And what did the Jewish families do that provoked others to take their property?

Now that is a good one ! - ask the Arabs that used to live in Jaffa what happened to their properties after 1948..or to the Palestinians who's olive yards have been bulldozed down to build illegal colonies..
You don't seem to know too much about Israeli history ...
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story12399.html
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:51 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 34):
And what did the Jewish families do that provoked others to take their property? Invade a particular place, like, say, the Syrians did? Syria attacked, they lost land due to their own fault, that's life and you're old enough to understand.

If you go back to 67 war you will find that Nasser started calling the army after he sought that Israel was threatening Syria.It could be true or not.syria took defensive action on its border with Israel.June 5th Israel attacked Egypt,Syria and Jordan.At no time did Syria attacked or threatened to attack Israel prior to June 5t.It is a well known fact that Syria was not prepared for a war with Israel.The calls of war were coming from Nasser.
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windy95
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:52 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
Not really,but neither side is.But i am talking about the Golan heights and what legal rights does the government of Israel have to sell lands that she does not own.

Possession.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12):
OK.So you control the Golan Heights after you occupied it in the 67 war.Fine.Now if there is a peace accord you should return it to Syria as you did with the Sinai and Egypt

No. And they should not of gave back the Sinai

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 32):
International laws for a starter

Did the International laws stop the Arabs from repeatadly attacking Israel?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
That does not seem to be the popular theory in relation to restitution of property seized from Jewish families during

What about the Jewish populations that had been driven out and made refugees after 48. If the Arabs want restitution then they can gice it to the Jews that they forced out or just call it even.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 34):
the Syrians did? Syria attacked, they lost land due to their own fault,

 checkmark   checkmark 
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct T

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:59 pm

They voted a law called "Absentee Property Law" allowing Israel to confiscate literally any properties they wanted ,once the owners were driven away.
Just for the records,that law is still used today..

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1485

[Edited 2009-02-15 06:00:15]
About the law :
http://acaseforpalestine.wordpress.c...tine-israel/absentee-property-law/

[Edited 2009-02-15 06:04:51]
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:07 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
No. And they should not of gave back the Sinai

Wow.Even for peace with Egypt?Question please,do you think that a peace between the Arabs and Israel is a good thing for all in the area?Or that Israel should always be at war with its neighbors?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
Possession.

Even if it is an illegal possession?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
Did the International laws stop the Arabs from repeatadly attacking Israel?

After the 48 war Israel attacked twice in 56 and 76.And the Arabs attacked?Sorry but can not find any.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
What about the Jewish populations that had been driven out and made refugees after 48. If the Arabs want restitution then they can gice it to the Jews that they forced out or just call it even.

The Jewish population was nothing over 10000 in the Arab world.Palestinians who lost there homes and land were over 1.5 million.Very even indeed.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:33 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 35):
OK i hope UN charters and The Hague convention is good enough.

The UN is a toothless wonder at best, so, no, they're not (and neither is Wikipedia). And the Hague Convention (much like the International Criminal Court of Justice) is another toothless piece - it's only enforceable if (A) the countries recognize it and (B) there is an authority with such influence in said countries who can enforce it - so, as expected, in the end, the UN and the Hague, etc. are useless concerning this.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
Now that is a good one !

Of course it is, and I need not ask anyone further than to refer to Jamal Husseini who told the UN "The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight." - http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...the_expulsion_libel_1948_arab.html

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
You don't seem to know too much about Israeli history

The previous shows otherwise.  eyebrow 

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
Possession.

Even if it is an illegal possession?

Opinion. Established.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
And the Arabs attacked?Sorry but can not find any.

 eyepopping   rotfl 

1948, 1973 . . .
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windy95
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:48 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
They voted a law called "Absentee Property Law" allowing Israel to confiscate literally any properties they wanted ,once the owners were driven away.

The word "driven" should have allegedly put in front of it.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
What about the Jewish populations that had been driven out and made refugees after 48. If the Arabs want restitution then they can gice it to the Jews that they forced out or just call it even.

How about it

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 38):
No. And they should not of gave back the Sinai

Wow.Even for peace with Egypt?Question please,do you think that a peace between the Arabs and Israel is a good thing for all in the area?Or that Israel should always be at war with its neighbors?

If the neigbors would leave Israel alone then there would have been peace a long time ago. The question to me is are the Muslims willing to live with a Jewish state in their midst?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
Even if it is an illegal possession?

Illegal to whom. Syrian tanks and artillery came out of the Golan heights. Israel as usual handed them another L in the loss column and took possession of the Heights. No tanks or artillery then no Israeli counterattack. Just like the rockets in Gaza. Pretty simple. Leave Israel as they are now and leave them to get on with their lives..

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
After the 48 war Israel attacked twice in 56 and 76.And the Arabs attacked?Sorry but can not find any

Are you missing 67 and 73 in your history books??

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
The Jewish population was nothing over 10000 in the Arab world.Palestinians who lost there homes and land were over 1.5 million.Very even indeed.

Wow  Wow!

You really do need new history books. Even the UN numbers that I had posted on the Gaza threads had the Jewish refugees at over 750,000 pushed out of the Muslim countries. You must not have read those links. And with the Palestinian refugees the UN estimated that the 48 war caused around 500,000.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:54 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):
Of course it is, and I need not ask anyone further than to refer to Jamal Husseini who told the UN "The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight." - http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/....html

Now what do you want Rachel Neuwirth to write if not to defend the historic injustice done to the Palestinians.Her participation in pseudo-balanced organisations like "MiddleEastSolutions Org" is just sand in the eyes of the greater public.There are literally hundreds of "Middle East Peace thinktanks" set up in the USA-90% run by Israelis.
The link you provide is complete rubbish,since it would mean that the Palestinians have not been deplaced by force but barely been subject to measures after they attacked Israeli combants.
Husseini is not really the best of all references,since his pseudo philosophy trying to link Palestinians to Nazi-Hitler were quite ridicoulous.Why don't people jus ask the families of those who had to leave their homes in Jaffa what they think about the situation..
Dont need another US based think-tank for that ( you wonder who funds them and if their brain-stormings ever produced ever any real peace-initiatives..)
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:06 pm

“It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them,” Golda Meir, Israel’s prime minister, said after the 1967 war. ..
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baroque
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:07 pm



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
You really do need new history books.

Wiki on the six day war.

On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack[12] against Egypt's airforce. Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya

You anxiety to award blame is causing a certain amount of blindness to what happened.

And was Syria provoked? Dayan thought so, which could be definitive since he was organizing the provocation.

In addition to sponsoring attacks against Israel[23] (often through Jordanian territory, much to King Hussein's chagrin), Syria also began shelling Israeli civilian communities in north-eastern Galilee from positions on the Golan Heights, as part of the dispute over control of the Demilitarized Zones (DMZs), small parcels of land claimed by both Israel and Syria.[33] Concerning attacks on Israel's territory, Syria maintained that it could not be held responsible for the activities of El-Fateh and El-Asefa, nor for the rise of Palestinian organizations whose stated goal was to liberate their conquered and occupied territory.[34]

Syria charged that Israel was harassing Arab farmers in the Demilitarized Zone and opening fire on Syrian military positions, while Israeli armored tractors were cultivating Arab land in the Demilitarized Zone, backed by Israel armed forces illegally placed there. Syria felt that the situation was the result of an Israeli aim to increase tension so as to justify large-scale aggression and to expand its occupation of the Demilitarized Zone by liquidating the rights of Arab cultivators. Syria stated that in every instance where there was a Syrian firing, it was in return of provocative Israel fire directed against peaceful Arab farmers or Syrian posts.[35] Nine years later, Moshe Dayan, the Israeli defense minister at the time of the war, stated a version of events very similar to this one:[36]

After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

So you really WILL have to give back the Golan Heights since the war was due to Israeli provocation - according to the theories advanced for possible modifications of the 9/10th of the law proposition.

Any more special pleading?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:25 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):
1948, 1973

And the two in between?Or you forgot that the Golan heights were seized in 1967/

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
The question to me is are the Muslims willing to live with a Jewish state in their midst?

One more time if you bring religion into this i will request deletion.Stop playing that religion guilt trip on our discussions.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
Illegal to whom. Syrian tanks and artillery came out of the Golan heights

Go back and read about the 67 war.

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
Are you missing 67 and 73 in your history books??

And who attacked first in 67?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
You really do need new history books. Even the UN numbers that I had posted on the Gaza threads had the Jewish refugees at over 750,000 pushed out of the Muslim countries. You must not have read those links. And with the Palestinian refugees the UN estimated that the 48 war caused around 500,000.

I like how you manipulate numbers.No there was not 750000 of our cousins in the Arab world in 1948 and not all of them were driven out by Arab countries.As for the Palestinians you forgot the one's after the 67 war or those do not count?

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 42):
Leave Israel as they are now and leave them to get on with their lives

No way.Land for peace.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 41):
The UN is a toothless wonder at best, so, no, they're not (and neither is Wikipedia). And the Hague Convention (much like the International Criminal Court of Justice) is another toothless piece - it's only enforceable if (A) the countries recognize it and (B) there is an authority with such influence in said countries who can enforce it - so, as expected, in the end, the UN and the Hague, etc. are useless concerning this

Well you asked for law references and i obliged now if you do not recognise any of them that's your problem.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:44 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 43):
The link you provide is complete rubbish

Anywhere close to the Palestinian apologist you presented, Henry Siegman? Does he write for Haeertz? I guess the CFR needs at least one Palestinian sympathizer in their ranks.  crazy  Israel has no quarter with you - they've had their share of bad moves, but how often have those been in comparison with neighboring countries? Israel could have annexed Lebanon, a good portion of Syria the entire Sinai and into the Arabic Peninsula if they so desired. And, regardless of the wall they've built, they do have claim after claim of needing some measure for self-defense. Maybe if all those Palestinian suicide bombers from earlier this decade hadn't carried out their attacks, Israel may not have felt the need to take land and call it in the name of security.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 44):
“It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them,” Golda Meir, Israel’s prime minister, said after the 1967 war. ..

Stinks when Israel's enemies are encroaching on Israeli property in the first place, doesn't it?  sarcastic 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
the six day war

Which Egypt obviously provoked - but don't let Israel off the hook just because they "provoke" rocket attacks by sealing borders in Gaza.  sarcastic 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
Any more special pleading?

How about better source material (as always)? Your material is always good for entertainment, if nothing more, though, Baroque.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46):
Or you forgot that the Golan heights were seized in 1967

I remember it quite well, just as much as I remember Syria sticking its nose where it didn't belong and they paid for it. Don't want to lose your land, Syria? Don't mess with a sovereign nation more powerful than you, one that didn't provoke you. Do so, and you'll lose your land and leave your sympathizers to offer up lame arguments in your defense.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46):
Well you asked for law references and i obliged now if you do not recognise any of them that's your problem.

Israel obviously doesn't recognize the authorities in the matters concerning what you presented, so who's problem is it now?  eyebrow 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:01 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 47):
Israel obviously doesn't recognize the authorities in the matters concerning what you presented, so who's problem is it now?

Israel and you?

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 47):
I remember it quite well, just as much as I remember Syria sticking its nose where it didn't belong and they paid for it. Don't want to lose your land, Syria? Don't mess with a sovereign nation more powerful than you, one that didn't provoke you. Do so, and you'll lose your land and leave your sympathizers to offer up lame arguments in your defense

Please refer to Baroque posting 45 to see who was provoking who.
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allstarflyer
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RE: Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:15 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 48):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 47):
Israel obviously doesn't recognize the authorities in the matters concerning what you presented, so who's problem is it now?

Israel and you?

Nope, and since you enjoy never letting facts get in your way, keep believing what you want.  thumbsup 

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 48):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 47):
I remember it quite well, just as much as I remember Syria sticking its nose where it didn't belong and they paid for it. Don't want to lose your land, Syria? Don't mess with a sovereign nation more powerful than you, one that didn't provoke you. Do so, and you'll lose your land and leave your sympathizers to offer up lame arguments in your defense

Please refer to Baroque posting 45 to see who was provoking who.

Please refer to post 47 for yet another accurate response to Baroque.
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