CometII
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The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:58 pm

The republican party has officially died in my eyes and the views of many.

They are a joke.

Not one republican in the house had the patriotism to vote for the Stimulus bill. While it can be argued they did so based on principle, the last 8 years of these same characters proves it was not. They did NOTHING, and I mean nothing, from January 20th 2001, to January 19, 2009 to stop their own president from doubling the national debt from 5 to 10 trillion. Did nothing to stop the pork-barrel spending, did nothing to cut bloated programs.

Can I repeat that? Nothing. Nichts. Nada. Zippo.

Now they claim to 'stand on principle'. Well, to me they are traitors.

They spent this nation into oblivion in the last eight years, and now they oppose THE ONE spending package that targets 99% of the population of this nation and not their 1% billionaire friends. They are bereft of morals.

Maybe so that the Rush Limbaugh crowd gets it, lets use a 4th grade example to show what the republicans have done: They lived in a beautiful house, for several years, burning up the water bill. Taking crazy 2 hour showers, leaving the water on while cooking and brushing their teeth, watering the lawn 4 times a day, changing the water on the pool every two weeks. On and on... wasting precious water and racking up a huge water bill.

Then one day, the house catches fire. Neighbors try to help by watering the house till the firefighters arrive, but now they suddenly catch 'waste' guilt and tell you "Hey, don't use too much water at all, we got to save water and money... I will only let you use a couple of buckets." The fire spreads beyond control and the house burns down before the firefighters can do much about it.

That's the republicans. The wasted it all, and then when burned it down.

I hope they all get voted out of office. It's time for a new party that truly focuses on conservative economics, and while we're at it stays out of EVERYONE's bedroom.
Let this ''republican party'', the one that doubles the debt every time they gain power (Reagan, W) on showering the richest one percent, on waging war and on nosing in and judging citizen morality as if they were without sin, DIE.

...Or at least be relegated to South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee and Oklahoma. That's what they have become, not even a southern party. A rural, southern, white male over 50, AM radio listening, big spending, morally judging, always say NO, party.

With that kind of demographic, they won't be winning many more elections. I mean, any.
 
mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:04 pm

Politically opposing this is the best thing the GOP can do. I bet even if it would get Rush Limbaugh's blessing the GOP would still find it politically beneficial to oppose it why?

1. If it fails to live to expectations: Which will undoubtedly happen ( i mean seriously, who is ever 100% happy with anything?) They have ammo for the future.

2. If it helps somewhat: They can claim it was because of the changes that they fought so hard for...

They is no political loss for the GOP to oppose it. They would be stupid.. Well they were a bit, when they praised Obama for meeting with them earlier.
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MaverickM11
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:07 pm



Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Not one republican in the house had the patriotism to vote for the Stimulus bill.

Wait, if you're handed a pile of sh!t and you don't accept it it's because you're not bipartisan?

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
They did NOTHING, and I mean nothing, from January 20th 2001, to January 19, 2009 to stop their own president from doubling the national debt from 5 to 10 trillion. Did nothing to stop the pork-barrel spending, did nothing to cut bloated programs.

I'd argue then that they're back, not dead Wink
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:12 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):

Wait, if you're handed a pile of sh!t and you don't accept it it's because you're not bipartisan?

cough Iraq cough...

Not to mention: Terrorist Lover and Anti-American..
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CometII
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:14 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 1):
If it fails to live to expectations: Which will undoubtedly happen ( i mean seriously, who is ever 100% happy with anything?) They have ammo for the future.

And you believe the American people are that stupid as to not see this obvious ploy? What will they run on when/if this package fails?? Under what slogan ''Hey, we balanced the budget under Bush" ... ???

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
I'd argue then that they're back, not dead

It's time for a new conservative party, like I said, no more chances for these tumbleweed politicos. Again, they did nothing to stop Bush from NOT stopping one single lowly piece of spending, and now they oppose this bill because it's politically convenient. No more tumbleweed congressmen that vote solely on what letter the current administration has, enough is enough.
 
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mariner
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Linco

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:40 pm

There's some good comes out of it.

Senator Gregg's comment that President Obama was never going to get any Republican support, taken together with the House vote, should put an end to this "bipartisan" dream.

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MaverickM11
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:44 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 3):
cough Iraq cough...

Not to mention: Terrorist Lover and Anti-American..

Like I said....

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
I'd argue then that they're back, not dead

E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JakeOrion
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:24 pm

Well this thread will start to get real interesting...

Can't stand the fact if:

a) this "stimulus" fails the Democrats will have no way to pin this on Republicans

or

b) it succeeds and Democrats will get all the credit.
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UAXDXer
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:39 pm



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 7):
Well this thread will start to get real interesting...

Can't stand the fact if:

a) this "stimulus" fails the Democrats will have no way to pin this on Republicans

or

b) it succeeds and Democrats will get all the credit.

This will be the make or break for the Dems.

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
The republican party has officially died in my eyes and the views of many.

They are a joke.

Had the shoe been on the other foot the result would've been the same. The fact is... this "Bail Out" is full of Pork, it will only create temporary work and not jobs. Now that Palosi has gotten this bill passed she is taking a tax funded "Pork" trip to Italy.
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mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:40 pm



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 7):
a) this "stimulus" fails the Democrats will have no way to pin this on Republicans

Exactly. That is why they republicans will be stupid to vote for it.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 7):
b) it succeeds and Democrats will get all the credit.

Define "succeeds"?

In other words, the Republicans are betting (politically speaking) on the failure (or perceived failure) of the plan. Like I said, with a plan so vast you are always going to find something wrong. And you can bet the the Republicans are going to harp on it every single chance they get.

Why do you think they kept talking about the measly $200 Mllion to Hollywood? Because it sounds good and attract attention.

Unless its a resounding success - then the Republicans will benefit from opposing this. And what are the chances of it being a resounding success?

Politics Politics Politics
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MaverickM11
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:51 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
And you can bet the the Republicans are going to harp on it every single chance they get.

What goes around comes around...

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 3):
cough Iraq cough...

E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:53 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
And you can bet the the Republicans are going to harp on it every single chance they get.

What goes around comes around...

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 3):
cough Iraq cough...


Absolutely. I see that, you see that.. but most people here seem to see the world in absolutes and they cannot appreciate the need for middle ground, and the need for real compromise.

Now that i think about it for a second more, for Iraq the Dem had to vote in favor because of the "must support our troops" mentality, and it would be political suicide to be too vocal and too facetious about it (like Reps are being this time around). The deck is stacked in favor of Reps.

So tell me why on earth would they even remotely consider voting for the "stimulus" package? Its a win-win for the Reps.

[Edited 2009-02-13 14:05:19]
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MD-90
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:06 pm



Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Now they claim to 'stand on principle'. Well, to me they are traitors.

They spent this nation into oblivion in the last eight years, and now they oppose THE ONE spending package that targets 99% of the population of this nation and not their 1% billionaire friends. They are bereft of morals.

So you're not aware that the "stimulus" package really is nothing of the sort? That it only adds to the government's already massive debt and will devalue our federal reserve notes and make us all poorer?
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:08 pm

Someone tell me why the Democrats are passing the biggest spending bill in US History in less than 48 hours from post date to pass date?

How is anyone supposed to even review this thing or see what is in it? I thought OBama said everything will be reviewed and post->pass will be 5 days minimum.
 
mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 12):

So you're not aware that the "stimulus" package really is nothing of the sort? That it only adds to the government's already massive debt and will devalue our federal reserve notes and make us all poorer?

So - Whats ur plan then?
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MaverickM11
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
So tell me why on earth would they even remotely consider voting for the "stimulus" package? Its a win-win for the Reps.

Right...so what's the value in being "bipartisan" for the sake of being bipartisan when the cost is so monumental? I think I'd do the same thing.
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mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:22 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):

Right...so what's the value in being "bipartisan" for the sake of being bipartisan when the cost is so monumental? I think I'd do the same thing.

No value at all. But it sure shows where their selfish priorities lie.
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AGM100
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:25 pm

President Obama and Pelosi over shot on this Bill, but they did it on purpose. If they would have targeted infrastructure and a housing fix instead of adding approx 350 billion in left wing nightmares it would have sailed through. But they wanted it to pay back there political operatives and the GOP stood.

The GOP screwed themselves when they voted for the first bail out . They should have fought President Bush on that .. and made it his problem. We are actively looking for those members to be thrown out of office in 2010 , anyone who voted for the original bail out is a target now.

This bail out will fail, because frankly the Dems want us poor and reliant on there generosity. This is where many of us fail to understand the agenda .. they want big government (or bigger) . The one thing standing in their way are independent upper middle class republicans and blue dogs. So , they need us brought down to size so to speak. We will see what happens , but things are changing fast.
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:27 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 14):
So - Whats ur plan then?

The republicans in Congress had an alternative plan but were not allowed to present it. Some bi-partisanship.

Personally, my plan would be extraordinarily simple.

1) Permenant elimination of the Capital Gains Tax
2) Permenant reduction of the corporate tax rate to a flat 15%
3) Keep Personal Income tax as they are (keep Bush Tax cuts), but add a new, higher tax tier as of $1 million, and another above $10 million. I hate how people making $250K are treated the same as multimilionnaires.
4) Elimination of PR deductions for the entertainment industry (that will raise billions upon billions).

And finally, along with an extention for jobless benefits (necessary at the moment, unfortunately) I would reinforce the provisions of the Welfare Reform of 1996, which this stimulus bill is quietly reversing.
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mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:30 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):

This bail out will fail, because frankly the Dems want us poor and reliant on there generosity. This is where many of us fail to understand the agenda .. they want big government (or bigger) . The one thing standing in their way are independent upper middle class republicans and blue dogs

Umm.. The Aluminum Foil hats are in Aisle 5...

Why do some people have this "Us against the world" mentality? Karl Rove understood these people very very well and played them like a fiddle.
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Linco

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
The republicans in Congress had an alternative plan but were not allowed to present it. Some bi-partisanship.

I'm not clear why a Democratic government should enact a Republican agenda.  confused 

Similarly, I am not sure why Senator McCain thought rural broadband was "essential" under President Bush, but "pork" under President Obama.  confused 

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mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:39 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):

1) Permenant elimination of the Capital Gains Tax
2) Permenant reduction of the corporate tax rate to a flat 15%
3) Keep Personal Income tax as they are (keep Bush Tax cuts), but add a new, higher tax tier as of $1 million, and another above $10 million. I hate how people making $250K are treated the same as multimilionnaires.

Tax cuts only then?

Tax cuts cost money too, you do realize that right?

You can can keep the personal tax cuts, but that only counts if you have job. What the use in getting $300 more a month in tax breaks if your job is not secure?

I though you were for the "hard working" people? Wouldn't you rather have a good job and earn your money, rather than you have handouts - that's what tax cuts are really.

I would feel more comfortable knowing that i have a secure job, to buy a new car - rather than get $3000 tax credit, because i wouldn't know if i will have a job 3months from now.

That is why i think that government funded infrastructure projects are the way to go

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
4) Elimination of PR deductions for the entertainment industry (that will raise billions upon billions).

Hmm.. give me some numbers here.. lets see your billions upon billions.. Is the NFL, NASCAR and NBA included in this industry?
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AGM100
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:44 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
extraordinarily simple



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 19):
Umm.. The Aluminum Foil hats are in Aisle 5...

Funny , but if you think the left wingers running things want independent people like me out here making money and supporting fiscally conservative representatives then go on. Ram Emanuel is going to say the same thing you are .. that we are some fringe group. The one sure way to get rid of me ,, is to make it harder for me to make money. Remember we are only in the first month of the new regime... we still have phase 2,3,4..... to go.

Its OK , for me personal I have now taking proper protective steps .. but many have not. Either way I am good , I am positioned for both ways the economy goes ..at least the best I can be.
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Confuscius
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:02 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):

1) Permenant elimination of the Capital Gains Tax
2) Permenant reduction of the corporate tax rate to a flat 15%
3) Keep Personal Income tax as they are (keep Bush Tax cuts), but add a new, higher tax tier as of $1 million, and another above $10 million. I hate how people making $250K are treated the same as multimilionnaires.

Tax cuts only then?

Déjà vu all over again.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:06 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
Tax cuts cost money too, you do realize that right?

Think about it. Don't you realize how warped your thinking has become, if you are thinking this way? Taxes are what costs money. The government exists to serve us, not the other way around.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
You can can keep the personal tax cuts, but that only counts if you have job. What the use in getting $300 more a month in tax breaks if your job is not secure?

Notice where I put the tax cuts. Capital gains (to increase the incentive for people to invest more), lowering of the corporate tax, (easing pressure on the bottom line and allowing companies to employ more people). All the jobs in the country are paid for by business, including (via trickle-down) all the jobs in the public sector. Business is the goose that lays the golden egg. Considering that we have some of the highest corporate tax rates in the world when you include state taxes, I think we can be pretty confident that business, employment and the stock market (i.e. all of you with 401ks and IRAs) will do very well.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
I would feel more comfortable knowing that i have a secure job, to buy a new car - rather than get $3000 tax credit, because i wouldn't know if i will have a job 3months from now.

Hence the desire to encourage businesses to employ by lifting some of the financial burden they carry. You do realize that all the layoffs that have been happening have been due to the need to defend the bottom line - Net Profit After Tax.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
Hmm.. give me some numbers here.. lets see your billions upon billions.. Is the NFL, NASCAR and NBA included in this industry?

I was mainly thinking of actors and musicians. You realize that every time Briteney goes out for another beaver-shot at Planet Hollywood with all the Paparazi there, the limo, the clothes, the hair stylist, everything is tax deductable as a PR expense. If she invites some magazine to shoot pictures of her home, or even if she is interviewed in her home, she can write off the landscapers, the housekeepers and other home costs to PR expense. they can do this because they are not salaried employees, (like in the old days with the big studios), but independant contractors.

Look at all the hollywood stars who make $20 million or more per movie. Then add all the musicians. Basically you can take all the people that appear in the tabloids. I think you will very quickly get into the billions.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:10 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
Similarly, I am not sure why Senator McCain thought rural broadband was "essential" under President Bush, but "pork" under President Obama

It's the difference between an emergency stimulus bill in a time of crisis and an elective spending bill during normalcy. What would have been the reaction if some Iowa congressmen tried to slip an agriculture subsidy into the PATRIOT Act?

That's essentially what we have here. An economic PATRIOT Act, and you can bet it's going to be just as controversial if not more during Obama's administration.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
Tax cuts cost money too, you do realize that right?

If I survive this recession without throwing my keyboard through a window it will be a miracle.  Yeah sure

Tax cuts do not cost money. The wealth that isn't collected by the government doesn't disappear, it stays in the hands of the people who earned it. And since the private sector is vastly more efficient at creating wealth than the government, that's probably where it should stay anyhow.

Tax cuts cost do result in a short-term decrease in government revenue but tax cuts have a long-term positive effect on revenue thanks to increased economic activity.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
I though you were for the "hard working" people? Wouldn't you rather have a good job and earn your money, rather than you have handouts - that's what tax cuts are really.

I would feel more comfortable knowing that i have a secure job, to buy a new car - rather than get $3000 tax credit, because i wouldn't know if i will have a job 3months from now.

That is why i think that government funded infrastructure projects are the way to go

1. Tax cuts are not hand-outs. They allow you to keep more of the money that you earned. In other words, tax cuts reward productivity.  Yeah sure

2. The way to save jobs is to stimulate all sectors of the economy ASAP. Government-funded infastructure projects will not do that. They won't help anyone start a business, they won't create any long-term jobs, and the lead time means many won't even get started for 12-24 months. That's an eternity.

Reductions in taxation and regulation are a faster and more potent stimulus that government spending.
 
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mariner
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Linco

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:24 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
It's the difference between an emergency stimulus bill in a time of crisis and an elective spending bill during normalcy.

Sorry, I'm still not seeing it. Democrats have different priorities from Republicans and will approach things differently. Isn't that why we have two parties?

The puzzle to me is that some Republicans I know are denying that there is even a crisis - or, if there is, they are saying that it doesn't need drastic action.

On the other hand, we have (Republican) Governor Pawlenty of Minnesota saying that the differences between the two parties on the Stimulus Bill Are actually quite small.

So it is Senator Gregg's admission that interests me - that the President was only ever going to get a tiny number of Republican Senators agreeing with him, and few if any House Republicans, no matter what he did.

I'll be interested to see if it does pass the Senate. I don't know if it is a lay down misere.

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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:28 pm



Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
The republican party has officially died in my eyes and the views of many.

They are a joke.

Umm. No sir. Let me explain to you what the real joke of this is.

The real "joke" is each and every person who voted "yes" for this bill. Now, before you pop off on your liberal rant, let me explain why.

While I do NOT believe this bill will do anything good, as it will in the long run, hurt our country, that is my opinion. And I do respect yours.

However, here is the joke. This bill is over 1000 pages long, and not ONE, let me repeat that, NOT ONE member of the House has read the entire bill. Now please, honestly, how does one vote "yes" for a bill if they don't know 100% of what is in the bill?

So, my friend, if you think the Dem's in Congress today are the "smart ones" by signing their name to a bill that they don't even have a clue to what's in it, I think you need to re-examine your opinion of who exactly is the joke.

Don't you think it would have made more sense for some Democrats to suggest that they be given more time to read the bill? And then if they still think its the answer, fine, vote yes. At least they will have a slimmer of an idea of what the heck they are voting on.

Seriously. Isn't most of this mess we are in because of all these "bad housing loans" you and your ilk claim the general public who signed for them had no clue what they were signing because they were forced/deceived/pressured to sign??


And yet you come here and claim the Democrats are the smartest people in the world? Really?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:36 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
The puzzle to me is that some Republicans I know are denying that there is even a crisis - or, if there is, they are saying that it doesn't need drastic action.

Count me as one of them. The economy is certainly bad, but we're not (necessarily) approaching a Great Depression event. As it stands, I would say our economy is in approximately the same position as the early 1980s, which we recovered from without a massive stimulus bill.

The problem with "drastic action" is that it can actually make things worse.
 
mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Linco

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:53 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
2. The way to save jobs is to stimulate all sectors of the economy ASAP. Government-funded infastructure projects will not do that. They won't help anyone start a business, they won't create any long-term jobs, and the lead time means many won't even get started for 12-24 months. That's an eternity.

Go ask any CEO right now what would they rather have:

1) 15% flat Tax

or

2) Certainty that their company will be in business 3 year from now because of government spending and its multiplication factor across the economy?

Which option will do more short term good for the company? Which option will cause the company to go and hire employees and get ready to work now? which option will cause a company to buy more equipment?

What good is a corporate tax cut if the company is about to fold? Give that company the opportunity to work

I want work. You want and extra $50 per paycheck. How long till that paycheck disappears?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
Business is the goose that lays the golden egg.

And who will be building bridges, roads, dams, transmission lines, airports? Private Businesses will.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
Tax cuts cost do result in a short-term decrease in government revenue but tax cuts have a long-term positive effect on revenue thanks to increased economic activity.

Bingo!... and right now what do we need long term or short term? Desperate times calls for desperate measurs

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
I would say our economy is in approximately the same position as the early 1980s,

On what count? Quantify this for us..
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OA412
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:56 pm

It's funny how quickly all of you seem to have forgotten that it was a Republican administration that began this whole stimulus nonsense.
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mariner
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:02 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
The problem with "drastic action" is that it can actually make things worse.

That may be true, but most Senators I have heard seem to think drastic action is needed - it is the form of that drastic action that is the sticking point.

I understand the Republicans believe they are "finding their voice" with their united opposition to the bill.

But I do think it will be unfortunate if all that voice says is "no."

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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:02 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
This bail out will fail, because frankly the Dems want us poor and reliant on there generosity. This is where many of us fail to understand the agenda .. they want big government (or bigger) .

Yeah that's it, all us pinko commie Democrats want you to live in abject poverty suckling off the government's teet. I find it hard to believe that some of you actually live in the same world in which I do.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
The republicans in Congress had an alternative plan but were not allowed to present it. Some bi-partisanship.

Right because if the situation were reversed the Republican members of congress would have thrown their bill out and done whatever it was the Democrats wanted.

[Edited 2009-02-13 16:04:08]
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ltbewr
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:14 am

The Republican party is far from dead, but indeed they need to develop a broader base or they will divide and die. They must start to move away from the hard core religious centered social conservatives and severe anti-tax financial conservatives. I suspect that many will vote Republican in the next 'mid-term' election in 2012 if we have a major terror attack within the USA, the economy is still bad, the unemployment rates stay high and other factors.
 
PPVRA
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:30 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
1) Permenant elimination of the Capital Gains Tax
2) Permenant reduction of the corporate tax rate to a flat 15%

Other way around IMO. Many companies don't even pay out dividends, especially smaller, growing companies. This will not affect them in any beneficial way.

Corporate taxes are probably the worse and most damaging form of taxation I can think of. You can't even argue "greed" as no one person could live off it lavishly until it is paid off in dividends. It's a direct tax on productivity and it should be abhorred by everyone alike.

[Edited 2009-02-13 16:32:55]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:01 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 29):
How long till that paycheck disappears?

How long till the ~$800bi stimulus check disappears? What then, are we gonna go the Zimbabwe way?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mham001
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:04 am

I only have time to read the original post, but it was republicans who were taking heat for holding up the the bank bill in November that is now widely said to be a waste, so the assertion that Repubs have done nada to hold back spending is incorrect.
 
Confuscius
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:20 am

New tactic for the GOP:


GOP Rep: We Might Need A Taliban-Like "Insurgency"

In an interview with National Journal's Hotline, Republican Rep. Pete Sessions of Texas suggested his party could follow the model of the Taliban in its legislative battles.

"Insurgency, we understand perhaps a little bit more because of the Taliban," Sessions said. "And that is that they went about systematically understanding how to disrupt and change a person's entire processes..."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0...rep-we-need-might-an_n_164227.html
Ain't I a stinker?
 
mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Linco

Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:25 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
How long till the ~$800bi stimulus check disappears? What then, are we gonna go the Zimbabwe way?

Are you familiar with the Multiplier Effect?

Go ask a man that got laid off this week if he wants a 10% tax cut or his job back?

I firmly believe that American are hardworking and they would rather be put to work.

[Edited 2009-02-13 17:35:56]
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PPVRA
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:03 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 38):

There are many multipliers. Most interesting of all IMO is the "money multiplier" effect.

I assume you are talking about Spending multipliers, though. And yes, I am familiar with them, though you should also know they are heavily based on Keynesian Theory. Eventually that money runs out too, though.

Are you familiar with Stagflation?

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 38):
Go ask a man that got laid off this week if he wants a 10% tax cut or his job back?

The idea behind tax cuts is to increase spending by companies, not to take home an additional 10%.

Keynesian Theory also calls for tax cuts during economic rough times, btw. Temporary deficit spending is the idea behind it. So far we've had continuous and endless deficit spending, and it looks like it'll continue.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:23 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
Are you familiar with Stagflation?

Of course. Did the New Deal cause stagflation?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
The idea behind tax cuts is to increase spending by companies, not to take home an additional 10%

Uh huh.. so my company has no clients and no projects.. and i get a tax cut? to do what? buy new furniture so my employees con do nothing but sit in nicer seats? Hire 3 more employees to work on nothing? By 3 more cars to sit idle?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
Keynesian Theory also calls for tax cuts during economic rough times, btw. Temporary deficit spending is the idea behind it.

I do think that tax cuts have their place, but the effect of spending is far more immediate and far reaching.

Say the Government spends $1 Million on a Dam. A private company gets hired, they buy equipment, pay their employees, who in turn buy other goods and services (paying taxes for them along the way).

In the end, you have a company with long project, employees with work, equipment suppliers with sales, and Dam that will benefit society (ask New Orleans if they can use one).

Even if a company increases spending like you say - when was the last time a private company built and financed a Dam or an expressway?

How much money did banks got on TARP I? and what did they do with it? Sat on it. They would do the same with a tax cut..
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:46 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
The puzzle to me is that some Republicans I know are denying that there is even a crisis - or, if there is, they are saying that it doesn't need drastic action.

I agree there is a crisis. But you don't respond to a heart attack by going shopping followed by a spot of clubbing. This bill contains tax breaks that do not inspire and promote increased economic activity, and pork packages which might employ some construction crews, but have little if no multiplier value.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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mariner
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Linco

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:13 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
But you don't respond to a heart attack by going shopping followed by a spot of clubbing. This bill contains tax breaks that do not inspire and promote increased economic activity, and pork packages which might employ some construction crews, but have little if no multiplier value.

Okay, but I have heard quite different perceptions of it from different economists, both on the right and the left.

More disturbing, to me, are the recurrent stories that some Republicans are voting against it for purely party reasons, as Senator Specter suggests here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0...er-republicans-suppo_n_166875.html

"Specter: Republicans Support Stimulus, Don't Want 'Fingerprints' On It"

Or the suggestion that the President needed to be taught a lesson about Nancy Pelosi, as here:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18854_Page2.html

"“The President's relations with the GOP will improve as he learned the hard way that he could not cede all this control to the Speaker,” Upton said."

I'm not naive, I do understand the political game, and that it is a game of personalities as much as power and politics. And I do not see all the Democrats as saints here.

But if there is a crisis let's treat the crisis seriously.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
pnqiad
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:16 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
bill contains tax breaks that do not inspire and promote increased economic activity

So Republican sponsored tax cuts promote economic activity but Democratic tax breaks do not??
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:30 am



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 7):

a) this "stimulus" fails the Democrats will have no way to pin this on Republicans

Back up. If it fails, there is no more U.S.A.

The country runs out of money, we have no way to pay our debts. No way to run infrastructure. Not sure how it would end (peacefully or violently) but the U.S.A. ceases to exist.

So I sincerely hope it doesn't fail.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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GuitrThree
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:40 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 30):
It's funny how quickly all of you seem to have forgotten that it was a Republican administration that began this whole stimulus nonsense.

Well. Not really. My my, how we conveniently forget history. Maybe during this downturn, the Republicans were first who offered a stimulus package, but I would hardly say they "started this stimulus nonsense".. Clinton did one too, in the 90's... and many more before him. And what was all the FDR new deal about? Wasn't it one gigantic "stimulus package?" I guess YOU forgot that....

Again.. let's forget the Republicans and Democrats for just one day or two.. and insist that they read the darn bill before they sign it....

Is that too hard??
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Yellowstone
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Linco

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:43 am



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 40):
I do think that tax cuts have their place, but the effect of spending is far more immediate and far reaching.

Can't emphasize this statement enough. Take a look at this letter from the Congressional Budget Office to Senator Gregg (R-NH):

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=9619

On the last page, there's a table that gives the CBO's estimate of the multiplier effects of various forms of economic stimulus, the additional dollars of GDP generated by each dollar of government spending. "Purchase of Goods and Services by the Federal Government" has a multiplier of 1.0 to 2.5. "Two-year Tax Cuts for Lower and Middle Income People" has a multiplier of 0.5 to 1.7. "One-year Tax Cuts for Higher Income People," aka Bushonomics, has a multiplier of 0.1 to 0.5.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
Are you familiar with Stagflation?

The economic conditions leading to stagflation were different from those leading to the Depression. The Depression was caused by a contraction in demand--American businesses were just as productive, but people weren't as willing to spend money. In this case, Keynesian theory works; the government takes the place of the unwilling consumers, spending money and getting the economy moving again. Stagflation was caused by a contraction in supply, largely because of the oil crisis. It wasn't that customers were reluctant to spend money, it was that businesses had to increase their prices to meet their increased costs. Government spending in this case does not address the supply contraction; by encouraging increased consumption in times of lower supply, it just leads to inflation.
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mt99
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:48 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
packages which might employ some construction crews, but have little if no multiplier value.

How much you figure the multiplier for "some construction" crews is?
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Aaron747
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:51 am

To the OP:

What is wrong with opposing a bill of massive expense that has only a 50% chance of doing anything close to what it purports to do? How is that unpatriotic? Did President Obama ask nonpartisan business roundtable groups, industry groups, and tax watchdog think tanks what they thought would be suitable? No! He marched in, with only the advice of his close-knit group of economists, and decided what was to be done. He met with Republicans, yes, but there wasn't nearly the level of compromise I was hoping for or expecting. Worse, he apparently bowed to pressure from his own party to hold the line on modifications to the bill.

I've been very disappointed by this process.

A little food for thought:

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/stimulus_bill_bravado.html
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seb146
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RE: The Republican Party Died On The Week Of Lincoln

Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:57 am



Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Maybe so that the Rush Limbaugh crowd gets it, lets use a 4th grade example to show what the republicans have done:

I don't understand something about these tin hat wearing, kool-ade drinking people: They are the only ones who shout loudest about the "fairness doctrine" being reinstated and, the outright lie Rush keeps peddling about "ACORN will recieve $4 million," and calling Obama "The Messiah" when it was the media simply reporting on people's reaction to Obama, but were screaming all during the W administration to "respect the president" and "respect the office of the president."

Not to mention that all these that keep touting "country first" keep puting party first. As long as Republicans do what they are told, America is great. Any other points of dissent are absolutly against anything American. But, anyone endoctrinated by Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter, et al. do not see it.
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