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mariner
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GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:34 pm

Three months ago, GM was insisting that Chapter 11 was not an option.

Now, it seems, they've changed their minds. This WSJ article is subscriptions, but here's the guts of it:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123458663412987489.html

WSJ: "General Motors Corp., nearing a federally imposed deadline to present a restructuring plan, will offer the government two costly alternatives: commit billions more in bailout money to fund the company's operations, or provide financial backing as part of a bankruptcy filing, said people familiar with GM's thinking."

The article goes on to say that it is "a dilemma" for Congress and the President, because they risk seeing an "industrial icon fall into bankruptcy".

It isn't a long fall and I don't think it's a dilemma. Either way, it's going to cost money and saving 'em will mean just more money later.

I think they should file.

mariner
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DocLightning
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:42 pm

How about Ch 7?

Or how about someone in Japan buys them?

Sorry, I'm sick of paying for corporate ineptitude.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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mt99
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:44 pm

As many have claimed.. A tax break will save them
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Flighty
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:47 pm

There could be a great American automotive sector, if the government would get out of the automaking industry. Hopefully the government will exit that industry soon. Then the real businessmen and women will have the opportunity to participate. Send out the clowns!
 
PPVRA
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:01 pm

Yeah, Chapter 7. . .

There's no dilemma.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
N867DA
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:22 pm

General Motors -- the next Pennsylvania Railroad Co?

It'll be interesting to see what the Democratic party will do about this. We'll find out just how important it is that the Big Three remain uh, the Big Three.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
Ken777
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:45 pm



Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
I think they should file.

A few small problems there.

first they get to dump their pension liabilities onto the taxpayer. Remember UAL pulling that trick?

GM has so much influence with their suppliers that some suppliers would also probably file - more pension plans moved to the tax payer.

The simple fact is that each filing cost taxpayers, creditors, shareholders, etc. and a company as complex as GM impacts a lot of entities.

The cheapest way out for the taxpayer is to keep them going, motivate them to clear excess inventory and support the shift to smaller cars.
 
TheGov
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:02 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
The cheapest way out for the taxpayer is to keep them going, motivate them to clear excess inventory and support the shift to smaller cars.

But how do you do that? The US Government can't motivate them to do anything. Nor can they force them to do anything. Why do you think CAFE standards are so low? (Clearly a case of the tail wagging the dog) And when and if they attach any conditions on loans, the Congress lacks enforcement capability. Therefore, enforcement, or lack thereof, is the key to the whole problem. Look at the bank CEOs on Capital Hill earlier this week. They know that Congress can do little to them so they just go up to the Hill, look sheepish and get shouted at, and then go back home to continue to do things the way they always have. And don't tell me Congress "forgot" to add restrictions to the money they lent the banks. Please! How many of those banks that got money from the U. S. Treasury also sent money to the Congressmen's PACs and re-election campaigns who were in charge of writing the bill?

I say let them file. We cannot, as taxpayers, continue to throw money at bad businesses. If we did that, we would still be flying on Eastern, Pan-Am and driving Packards and Edsels.
Always a pallbearer, never a corpse.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:04 pm

I'm all for ch. 11. That's what it's for.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
first they get to dump their pension liabilities onto the taxpayer.

Once more reinforcing the stupidity of keeping pension responsibilities in the hands of the employers. The UAW resisted every attempt at replacing the pensions with 401ks and other outside coverage programs, and if they end up losing it all, as sad as it is for the individuals, you can't deny that there is a certain amount of justice after all.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
PPVRA
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:10 pm



Quote:
GM considering Chapter 11 filing, new company: report

CHICAGO (Reuters) – General Motors Corp, nearing a Tuesday deadline to present a viability plan to the U.S. government, is considering as one option a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing that would create a new company, the Wall Street Journal said in its Saturday edition.

"One plan includes a Chapter 11 filing that would assemble all of GM's viable assets, including some U.S. brands and international operations, into a new company," the newspaper said. "The undesirable assets would be liquidated or sold under protection of a bankruptcy court. Contracts with bondholders, unions, dealers and suppliers would also be reworked."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090214/ts_nm/us_gm_plan
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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mariner
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:25 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
A few small problems there.

More than a few and some of them quite large.

But three months ago, GM rejected the idea of Chapter 11. Now they are saying it is an option. Why? If it was wrong then, why is it possible now?

And why are they even offering the alternative of Chapter 11? if they have a sound, solid plan that makes sense, go for it, fight for it.

But I note that the UAW just walked out of negotiations for the forward business plan.

So I'm not convinced that either management or the union have bitten the bullet of reality.

The free marketeer in me says let 'em go under. I doubt that is politically feasible, for either party, but all I see at the moment is a company flailing around and a bottomless pit waiting to be filled with public funds.

mariner
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NIKV69
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:10 am



Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
I think they should file.

Of course they should of but CNN and MSNBC have furthered the "sacred cow" propaganda so that we have to believe GM employees are somehow more important than the millions of others losing jobs. Obama better not give these people one more cent.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 2):
As many have claimed.. A tax break will save them

Come on, can we dispense with the baseless attacks? GM is not a company victimized by the economy. They are a terribly run company that has zero money and zero chance to compete since their product can't compete. This coupled with a union that believes they are entitled to everything even as the company bleeds red have led to one ending. Either stop begging the government for money and file or go out of business. I don't want to hear about how old they are or any of that other crap. They are not above anyone else.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 5):
It'll be interesting to see what the Democratic party will do about this.

This is another huge test for Obama. If he dares to commit any more money that will surely just go out the window he risks his future. He better stand firm.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
The cheapest way out for the taxpayer is to keep them going, motivate them to clear excess inventory and support the shift to smaller cars.

Do you have any idea how long it will take for them to even have a chance to be comptetive again? It's impossible, they are too deep in debt and too far gone. Enough already.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
But three months ago, GM rejected the idea of Chapter 11. Now they are saying it is an option. Why? If it was wrong then, why is it possible now?

Well because GM lets the UAW bully them and lets them call the shots.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
The free marketeer in me says let 'em go under. I doubt that is politically feasible, for either party, but all I see at the moment is a company flailing around and a bottomless pit waiting to be filled with public funds.

Why? It's better to just blow billions with no future in site? Don't listen to CNN if they go under we will be fine.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:25 am

I still think that GM is quietly negotiating with Obama Administration officials on an orderly Chapter 11 filing that will allow a massive reorganization of the overly-expensive UAW contracts, an orderly reduction of the size of the company and protection for GM's various parts suppliers.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:14 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Once more reinforcing the stupidity of keeping pension responsibilities in the hands of the employers.

Really? You of all people are saying this?

I'm amazed because I agree with you. But again the government still needs to be involved even if pensions are made into 401K's because what happens when the banks that hold the 401K's melt down and the government has to bail them out?

Now, how about their healthcare? I'd rather that the taxpayer foot that bill in the first place rather than get into the expensive mess that happens when nobody has insurance.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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mariner
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:59 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Don't listen to CNN if they go under we will be fine.

I don't much listen to or watch CNN, or any of the news channels.  confused 

mariner
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NIKV69
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:01 am



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 12):
I still think that GM is quietly negotiating with Obama Administration officials on an orderly Chapter 11 filing that will allow a massive reorganization of the overly-expensive UAW contracts, an orderly reduction of the size of the company and protection for GM's various parts suppliers

If only this was true, but something tells me it isn't. I still think the UAW will try to strong arm him.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
ltbewr
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:52 am

I guess that the threat of Chapter 11 bankruptcy with all the problems it would create is being used as a form of extortion to get more money from the taxpayers. Until some relief as to the long-term costs of retirees is resolved, then the big 3 will remain in danger of collaspe and making the current financial crises even worse.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:53 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Really? You of all people are saying this?

I argued for this point 20 years ago when I wrote my Masters' thesis, entitled "The Rescue of General Motors". Interesting that the document is just as up-to-date today as in the late 80s. Nothing has changed.

No company should be obliged to pay for anything regarding employees that no longer work there.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
I'm amazed because I agree with you. But again the government still needs to be involved even if pensions are made into 401K's because what happens when the banks that hold the 401K's melt down and the government has to bail them out?

A 401k is a seperate account, invested in a portfolio. It is completely seperate from the bank's assets. If the bank collapses, your 401k with its shares of Exxon, Dow and Microsoft are untouched.

The one change I would make to the 401k system is to convert a diminishing portion of the funds to insurance. In other words, early in your career, some 25% of your 401k deduction goes towards an integrated life and disability policy, so that if you die or are disabled before retirement, you get all the funds or more that you would have gotten if you had continued the 401k through retirement. As time goes by and retirement gets closer, the insurance portion would of course become smaller and smaller.

Health insurance on the other hand should be entirely in the hands of the employee (although an employer might negotiate a group rate for employees). Other reforms are needed, but that is the subject for another thread.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Alessandro
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:45 am

Guess that either the Russians or Germans will buy Opel, SAAB will closed down and
rest of the brands partied out in the US (for the rights to sell spareparts).
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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DocLightning
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:53 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):

A 401k is a seperate account, invested in a portfolio. It is completely seperate from the bank's assets. If the bank collapses, your 401k with its shares of Exxon, Dow and Microsoft are untouched.

True, so then when Exxon, Dow, and Microsoft collapse? Can't happen? Think again. Who would have ever guessed that GM, of all companies, is about to become insolvent?

After recent times, I've decided that I will not be investing in any more stocks. I'm not in life to get rich, I'm in life to live comfortably. I would rather have a fixed interest rate that may be lower than the theoretical "long-term" growth offered by the stock market and know that half of my assets aren't going to evaporate overnight.

But the idea of leaving pensions anywhere in the hands of corporate America scares me.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:13 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
True, so then when Exxon, Dow, and Microsoft collapse? Can't happen? Think again. Who would have ever guessed that GM, of all companies, is about to become insolvent?

Basic portfolio management: Your money should be parcelled out between at least 20 companies in diverse industries. That's what mutual funds are for, if you don't care to take care of it yourself, or you don't have the funds to efficiently spilt your funds.

C'mon, this is basic.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
But the idea of leaving pensions anywhere in the hands of corporate America scares me.

And the hands of government scares me even more. Can you give me any examples of something that the US government has run well? Medicare? Social Security?
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:55 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
If only this was true, but something tells me it isn't. I still think the UAW will try to strong arm him.

I think it is true, because even the UAW fank and file realizes that if they want to save GM, financial sacrifices on behalf of the UAW will have to be necessary for now. We could see an agreement on the Chapter 11 filing possibly as early as the end of this month, primarily as a means to protect GM's part suppliers.
 
NIKV69
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:13 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 16):
I guess that the threat of Chapter 11 bankruptcy with all the problems it would create is being used as a form of extortion to get more money from the taxpayers. Until some relief as to the long-term costs of retirees is resolved, then the big 3 will remain in danger of collaspe and making the current financial crises even worse.

Hold on a second, the big three are not in danger here. Ford in fact refused the money and will most likley be fine. Chrysler is in a bad way but can still probably survive and is in much better shape than GM. It is GM that is dying here. They burned through all the money we gave them, have a union that refuses to budge and nobody is buying their product. So let's stay in reality here. GM needs to file already to have any chance of surviving.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
No company should be obliged to pay for anything regarding employees that no longer work there.

True, I mean I think it's great that some companies can do it but when your GM and are deep in debt and not selling product well it's time to restructure.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
True, so then when Exxon, Dow, and Microsoft collapse? Can't happen? Think again. Who would have ever guessed that GM, of all companies, is about to become insolvent?

Major differences in the companies you described, GM has a ton more competition and is losing badly to that competition. Not a fair comparison.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 21):
I think it is true, because even the UAW fank and file realizes that if they want to save GM, financial sacrifices on behalf of the UAW will have to be necessary for now. We could see an agreement on the Chapter 11 filing possibly as early as the end of this month, primarily as a means to protect GM's part suppliers.

I sure hope your right but I won't believe it till I see it.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
cairo
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:25 pm

Let them go to bankruptcy.

It will either kill them off forever or allow a re-birth like Continental.

GM has so many terminal problems - more cash for a few months of life support is just more money down a black hole. Look at their brands - how many are there, 5 or 7? Why? There should be maybe 2 - regular and luxury. Their labor relations suck, and they are selling few cars to individual buyers these days - I heard more than half of their sales are to large fleet purchases like the government and rental car companies.

Bankruptcy is best, and why not just get all the pain done now while we're all in a pain fest anyway?

Cairo
 
baroque
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:34 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
But the idea of leaving pensions anywhere in the hands of corporate America scares me.

That was the best comment of the thread. Of course you got the brisk reply of what has the US Gov run well? Nicely phrased of course, because the real question is not whether the US Gov has done whatever well but has it done "whatever" better than private industry. And how daring to ask that question at this time when clearly few things have been run worse than US banks or indeed the US car industry.

I think one of the points Doc was making, or if not should have made, is that corporate America is not being run very well and nor is it being very successful overall. Obviously there are high points but how about the average?

But it was nice to learn that Exxon, Dow and Microsoft do not have competition.

Exxon certainly has competition and could lose to any of about 3 or 4 other majors at the present time and had it continued on its merry way of the past 6 or so years it probably would. Dow could easily lose out to another major chemical company. And I will bet that more than 50% of a.netters wish Microsoft would have a viable competitor tomorrow and that is even after leaving a certain German contributor out.

The US banks are being stress tested. I wonder what the result would be if the US economy was stress tested to see how many major bankruptcies it could survive. Not many more might be the quick answer. If it not the answer, I would love to see the arguments - numerical preferably - why not.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:07 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
And how daring to ask that question at this time when clearly few things have been run worse than US banks or indeed the US car industry.

Interesting how you omit the US Government. You do realize that the US banks and car industry would also be ok if they could print their own money.

I keep thinking of how the history books will look back on this period in 2100 or so. I think they will write it down as a period where irresponsible behaviour was not only tolerated but championed at the highest level of government. Business will eventually correct itself, if left to its own devices. But how is government going to correct itself?
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
baroque
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:15 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
And how daring to ask that question at this time when clearly few things have been run worse than US banks or indeed the US car industry.

Interesting how you omit the US Government. You do realize that the US banks and car industry would also be ok if they could print their own money.

I doubt if that follows. One of the problems with the banks is that the legality of what they have been doing is at best questionable. The car industry seems legal, if stupid.

Or are you now suggesting that there are operations other than the CIA excursions into torture that are of questionable legality? Please reveal.

Remind me where I omitted the US Gov, I just suggested that a reasonable metric was does it perform better or worse than the average or median whichever metric you find convenient. My thesis is that it performs better than average. And yours presumably is that it is worse. So how does it compare with the banks?

Remember you cannot cite the two FMs as they were privatised I believe.
 
MOBflyer
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:23 pm

It would not bother me for them to file Chapter 7. They are only American in name, as the "foreign" automakers are only foreign in name. All are part of a global market. Alabama has several foreign automaker plants, not one "American" one. They have Mercedes, Honda, and Hyundai. Mississippi has a major Nissan facility.

The prolonged existence of GM is putting a drain on the automakers that are actually well enough off to weather things like this.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:36 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):

No company should be obliged to pay for anything regarding employees that no longer work there.

Then they shouldn't sign a contract agreeing to do so.

As for GM, they need to file CH11 and re-work their contracts. Obviously, there will be some negative effects on both employees and suppliers, but its the only hope GM has of surviving.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
And the hands of government scares me even more.

But you're ok with the US gov't spending TRILLIONS of your dollars to build (or rebuild) other countries? I've never understood how conservatives can hate the government and taxes so much, but still believe the gov't should be responsible for spending your money on other countries.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
And the hands of government scares me even more.

And if you allow the banks to be in charge of retirement accounts, they'll just mismanage the money and hold the gov't hostage everytime they need a bailout.
 
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par13del
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:02 pm

GM right now is so huge, so many factions that it is difficult to see all the parties concerned getting together to eliminate their own jobs. Do they have too many dealers, too many models, too many plants, too many employees, too many obligations, probably yes to all the above, so when they all sit at the table, which one is going to fall on his proverbial sword for the betterment of the whole?

This is one case where Chpt.11 is probably the easy way to resolve the problem, this does not mean that it will not be complicated, difficult and painfull, it only means that once entered into, all the personal baggage keeping aggreements at bay will be removed. I wish they remain as a viable company, do not want to see Chapt. 7, Americans should be able to build and design cars, it ain't rocket science.
 
Ken777
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:49 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Do you have any idea how long it will take for them to even have a chance to be comptetive again? It's impossible, they are too deep in debt and too far gone. Enough already.

GM does sell a lot of cars & trucks, just like Toyota does. Both companies are hurting in terms of sales and both need to take action.

Don't assume that it is just GM that is having severe problems. If, however, GM does file you can be sure a lot of costs will be moved to the taxpayers in one way or another.

There is clearly no free lunch regardless of which direction GM takes.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Can you give me any examples of something that the US government has run well? Medicare? Social Security?

Medicare is working very for me right now. I have supplemental insurance and my total costs are less than half of what I would pay if I was still on private insurance.

Social Security is also nice after paying into it for so many years.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
And I will bet that more than 50% of a.netters wish Microsoft would have a viable competitor

Apple's OSX isn't that bad. It simply depends on what apps you need to run.

Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 27):
The prolonged existence of GM is putting a drain on the automakers that are actually well enough off to weather things like this.

You're assuming that non-union "foreign" companies producing in the US are safe. With even Toyota experiencing major sales reductions and making significant cost cuts we need to accept that the entire market is in a world of hurt.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:51 pm

This is the height of short-sightedness and/or desperation by GM's senior leadership. They are looking to sell most of it's stake in the Chinese auto market.

"GM approached its partner and China's largest automaker, SAIC, in recent weeks with an offer to sell some of its stake in their 50-50 joint venture, according to sources quoted by Reuters. GM's proposal would make GM a minority partner in the venture.

GM's performance in China has been one of the automaker's few bright spots. GM moved into China a decade ago. At the time, skeptics criticized GM for the move. However, GM got in on the ground floor and was established to capitalize on the phenomenal growth in Chinese car sales. Today, GM is China's sales leader; it sells more Buicks in China than in the U.S.

Moving into China early also gave GM to select the best dance partner in SAIC, which also partners with Volkswagen, the No. 2 in China; latecomers to the market got the leftovers.

GM's partnership with SAIC has been a successful one and has grown over the years. In addition to their 50-50 joint venture to build and market Buick, Cadillac and Chevrolet, the pair has seven other joint ventures, including a finance company, a version of OnStar and a three-party venture with commercial truck maker Wuling.

Selling off some of its Chinese business is risky business. Sales in China, which exceeded those in the U.S. in January for the first time in history, have slowed but are still growing and are expected to rebound significantly when the global economy recovers. GM could miss out on that growth with a diminished role in the market."

Source: http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/02/...ooking-for-cash-on-all-fronts.html

In Sweden, GM appears to be ready to "spin-off" Saab as an independent car maker.

"GM Europe president Carl-Peter Forster said that negotiations between GM and Sweden could wrap up at the end of the month - in time for GM to present its viability plan to the United States government.

Though further details are unclear at the moment, it seems possible that Saab’s manufacturing facilities in Trollhattan, Sweden, as well as its employees and current lineup, could simply be handed over to a newly formed, independent, Swedish management. Obviously, the long term effects of platform and powertrain sharing with GM would need to be addressed."

Source: http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-to-ma...ndependent-by-end-of-february.html
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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RayChuang
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:02 am

I've said this before: GM will essentially be down to three divisions by the end of 2009 at latest in the North American market.

It will end up looking like this by 2011:

Chevrolet

Aveo (based on next-generation Opel Corsa) hatchback and sedan variants
Meriva "tall wagon," essentially the second-generation model coming this fall
Cruze sedan and possibly hatchback (replacing Saturn Astra and Chevrolet Cobalt)
Malibu (next-generation version based on Opel Insignia sedan)
Corvette sports car

Cadillac

BLS sedan and wagon variants (next-generation model replacing BLS now sold in Europe)
CTS sedan, hatchback and wagon variants
DTS sedan and coupe variants
SRX "crossover" small SUV

GMC

All light truck and SUV's now move to this division except for Cadillac SRX

The Buick brand will continue in China, but their models will evolve to be derived from Opel platforms.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:18 am



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 32):
The Buick brand will continue in China, but their models will evolve to be derived from Opel platforms.

According to Reuters, GM appears to be ready to sell most of its stake in China to it's partner, SAIC. See my reply #31
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Flighty
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:34 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
GM rejected the idea of Chapter 11. Now they are saying it is an option. Why? If it was wrong then, why is it possible now?

It wasn't wrong then. Those statements were like a drunk man telling the police officer "OCCIFER, ARRSTING ME FOR DRNK DRVING IS NOT AN OPTI... bleah!!"

It was worth a chuckle but any company so disastrously misshapen has no choice but to either go bankrupt, or BECOME part of the government on a permanent basis.

The union members are very understandably trying to BECOME part of the government! That way, their pensions and lazy workstyles are enshrined in the USA system. Unfortunately Obama and his amusing "Car Czar" strategy are bound to simply implode just like the USSR's various non-capitalist industries. I bought a copy of an amusing Russian Economics book to learn more about Obama's future ideas. From what I gather, Czars live in extremely large castles made of marble and gold. Instead of getting their power through the free market however, they get it by shooting people. It will be an interesting few years.
 
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mariner
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:48 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 34):
Unfortunately Obama and his amusing "Car Czar" strategy are bound to simply implode just like the USSR's various non-capitalist industries.

What car czar?:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2009021500225.html?hpid=topnews

WaPost: "White House Won't Appoint a 'Car Czar'"

It was the Bush administration that wanted a car czar.

"The Bush administration had indicated an inclination to appoint a car czar, or senior government official to negotiate between the automakers and other parties involved."

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
rfields5421
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:56 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Come on, can we dispense with the baseless attacks? GM is not a company victimized by the economy. They are a terribly run company that has zero money and zero chance to compete since their product can't compete.

Really - where did you hear this from a credible source in the past five years.

GM sold more hybrids and fuel efficient cars than Honda or Toyota or anybody last year. Their cars have ranked at the top of customer satisfaction survey's for the past three years.

GM was doing fair, not great, but well until the credit crunch stopped their sales.

Not 'crappy' products. True they do make a lot more money selling a $50,000 SUV than a $14,000 fuel efficient Malibu. But if they don't someone else will.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
A 401k is a seperate account, invested in a portfolio. It is completely seperate from the bank's assets. If the bank collapses, your 401k with its shares of Exxon, Dow and Microsoft are untouched.

Unfortunately the decline in GM stock prices has cut the value of tens of thousands of 401K accounts, along with state pension plans, private pension plans and many insurance annuities.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
GM has so much influence with their suppliers that some suppliers would also probably file - more pension plans moved to the tax payer.

If GM takes Chapter 11, we can expect to see Chrysler, Ford and Nissan USA take Chapter 11 within a year. Also probably Toyota USA and Honda USA.

GM's Chapter 11 will put several hundred suppliers into Chapter 11 and Chapter 7 also. Companies which sell the newer technology to all of the auto manufacturers.

Ford and Toyota have already warned their stock holders that a major failure of GM could bring their supplier network down and take two to four years to rebuild and recover.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 28):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):

No company should be obliged to pay for anything regarding employees that no longer work there.

Then they shouldn't sign a contract agreeing to do so.

So the company which just let me go should be able to unilaterally cancel the separation agreement and the severance they are paying me?

I can guarantee you every company in the US will be paying the executives after they leave, so why should the workers be different.

Now this is not the 80% reserve pay which is in the union contract. Employees/ workers only get that pay if they agree to certain conditions and agree to remain on call to return to work. This is much cheaper for a company like GM than risking having a large portion of their workers find new jobs if there is a one or two month shutdown of the plant.
 
rfields5421
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:01 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Once more reinforcing the stupidity of keeping pension responsibilities in the hands of the employers. The UAW resisted every attempt at replacing the pensions with 401ks and other outside coverage programs, and if they end up losing it all, as sad as it is for the individuals, you can't deny that there is a certain amount of justice after all.

I agree in principle that pension programs ought to be fully funded.

Though that will put many if not most US corporations at a significant disadvantage for many, many years - decades.

Even the 'non-US' automakers in the US do not have their pension programs fully funded.

The autoworker pensions would not fall completely under the US Pension Guaranty Board program because the automaker pension programs do not meet the standard for joining the program.

So Congress will have to appropriate money to pay the autoworker pensions. Hopefully they will keep the autoworkers to the same limits as the PGB pensions, not make them better paying. That will be very difficult for both Republicans and Democrats to vote against - because doing so will upset a few million voters.

Nobody in Congress has the cojones to tell that many voters in big electoral vote states to take a flying leap.
 
rfields5421
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:02 am

One other extremely bad consequence of a GM Chapter 11 filing - most estimates expect an additional 250,000-350.000 homes to go into foreclosure within six months of wage and contract cuts.

That will hurt everyone in the country with a home, making their value lower and making sales harder.
 
ACDC8
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:10 am

Question. Could these bailouts actually hurt GM by turning people away from their products? What I mean is, people not buying a GM product simply because they are getting fed up with GM asking for these bailouts and perhaps buying a Ford product for the reason that they didn't take a bailout?

I'm sure that there are people who do think this way, as there are people who may want to support GM even more now. But, could this type of PR actually damage GM in the long run?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ual777
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:29 am



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 32):


Aveo (based on next-generation Opel Corsa) hatchback and sedan variants
Meriva "tall wagon," essentially the second-generation model coming this fall
Cruze sedan and possibly hatchback (replacing Saturn Astra and Chevrolet Cobalt)
Malibu (next-generation version based on Opel Insignia sedan)
Corvette sports car

I disagree. The new Malibu and the Impala are two of their best sellers.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 39):
Question. Could these bailouts actually hurt GM by turning people away from their products? What I mean is, people not buying a GM product simply because they are getting fed up with GM asking for these bailouts and perhaps buying a Ford product for the reason that they didn't take a bailout?

I'm sure that there are people who do think this way, as there are people who may want to support GM even more now. But, could this type of PR actually damage GM in the long run?

No. Well at least not for me. Im buying a 2009 Malibu LTZ in May. My current car is a Honda, but GM has impressed me with the new Malibu. Totally different car from 5 years ago.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Flighty
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:44 am



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 37):
So Congress will have to appropriate money to pay the autoworker pensions.

Sorry? Why will they have to? Can't they go broke like normal people? Ohhh, I forgot, these are special people.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 37):
That will be very difficult for both Republicans and Democrats to vote against - because doing so will upset a few million voters.

Other voters will be upset if they are paying rich pensions worth $1 million to each UAW member ($50k/yr is worth around $1m) just because they were in a union once. Being in a union doesn't make somebody a god. It doesn't make other Americans their slaves for all eternity. Slavery was outlawed a long time ago.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 39):
Could these bailouts actually hurt GM

My view is GM had an excellent chance at a businesslike and professional bankruptcy. Now that they are welfare clowns, I think the public will tire of them quickly. Particularly a public that gets paid less than they do.
 
baroque
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:11 am



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 27):
It would not bother me for them to file Chapter 7. They are only American in name, as the "foreign" automakers are only foreign in name. All are part of a global market. Alabama has several foreign automaker plants, not one "American" one. They have Mercedes, Honda, and Hyundai. Mississippi has a major Nissan facility.

Then you do not understand the droit de seigneur effects of the residence of the big companies. In this case they are less interested in the first night of the bride than ensuring seigneurage continues at a "healthy" rate. It is one of the best ways of getting around transfer pricing rules and local taxes. Just charge it up to head office expenses. Where do you think the big car manufacturers got the exec jet frame of mind that so got up your legislators collective noses? It is impossible to work out how much the US gouges out of the rest of the world for this because it is impossible to dissect it out of the books. Assume about 10% of overseas turnover. And trust me. Toyota, Honda and Merc will be repaying the compliment.
 
jfktowerfan
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:11 pm

I nearly bought a GM vehicle last week and while the incentives are great, they refused to budge on the price. Good luck GM...

Corey
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Dreadnought
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:16 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
Medicare is working very for me right now. I have supplemental insurance and my total costs are less than half of what I would pay if I was still on private insurance.

That has nothing to do with Medicare's health as a financial entity - i.e. what it brings in, what it pays out, and administrative costs.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 39):
Question. Could these bailouts actually hurt GM by turning people away from their products? What I mean is, people not buying a GM product simply because they are getting fed up with GM asking for these bailouts and perhaps buying a Ford product for the reason that they didn't take a bailout?

I don't think so. The reason that bankruptcy is considered such a bad word in the auto industry is warranties. If I am in the market for a car today, and I percieve a risk that GM might, after filing Ch. 11, cancel all warranties or reduce their length, I'm going for something else. The warranty is part of the price of the car.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:34 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 41):
My view is GM had an excellent chance at a businesslike and professional bankruptcy. Now that they are welfare clowns, I think the public will tire of them quickly.

That's the essential item right there. They will get the same treatment as the banks that have been outed for the frauds they are and were - possibly worse. They'll end up on the auction block one way or another, as that's the only reasonable exit in the cards at this point.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
rfields5421
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:10 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 41):
Other voters will be upset if they are paying rich pensions worth $1 million to each UAW member ($50k/yr is worth around $1m) just because they were in a union once

Right now workers in the situation of GM workers get about $42,000 per year as the maximum pension. Many, most get less than that.

That includes folks like the retired Delta, Northwest, UAL, US Airways mechanics, flight attendants and pilots.

Many of those folks had pensions up to $70K - now they are getting $30K to $42K.

But a GM bankruptcy will put more people into the system than all the airline breakups combined.

In my opinion, if GM goes bankrupt, the company assets should be siezed and sold to pay enough money into the PGB to fund the pensions they are contractually obligated to pay. so the taxpayers don't get stuck with the bill.

You can be damned sure the Executive pension program will be funded and every conservative on this forum will scream those folks deserve their money because it is in their contracts.

Personally, I'd rather have seen UAL, US Airways, Delta, Northwest, etc liquidated rather than dump there pension and obligations on the taxpayers. The same with GM.

Evne though, GM in Chapter 11, or Chapter 7 is going to make this recession into a depression and make it last at least four more years.
 
rfields5421
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:16 pm



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 39):
Could these bailouts actually hurt GM by turning people away from their products? What I mean is, people not buying a GM product simply because they are getting fed up with GM asking for these bailouts and perhaps buying a Ford product for the reason that they didn't take a bailout?

No - the data available and reported in the media shows no buyer backlash against bailout money. Even Fox agrees with that.

What does happen though is the fear of bankruptcy hurts car sales, driving a small but noticable percentage of buyers to other brands.

Chrysler's slide last fall is 50% documented to be over rumors and stories that the company will be shutdown/ go bankrupt.

People don't worry / care about bailouts.

They worry / care about the new car warranty being voided by a bankruptcy - which will happen.

They worry / care about the dealership being closed - and not having any place to take problems / get the car fixed.

Possible bankruptcy stories will hurt GM sales in that manner.
 
NIKV69
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:32 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 36):
GM sold more hybrids and fuel efficient cars than Honda or Toyota or anybody last year. Their cars have ranked at the top of customer satisfaction survey's for the past three years

Great but the fact remains the Japanese product is beating them like a red headed step child.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 36):
GM was doing fair, not great, but well until the credit crunch stopped their sales

Oh please, the last 20 years GM has been a joke, they have had too many cars that nobody is buying and a higher cost to make, a union that wants way too much and terrible management. The credit crisis was just the last nail in their coffin.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 36):
If GM takes Chapter 11, we can expect to see Chrysler, Ford and Nissan USA take Chapter 11 within a year. Also probably Toyota USA and Honda USA.

Major Bravo Sierra, don't lump these companies into the mess GM has created for themselves. There is no credible source or evidence to back up this ridiculous claim.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 39):
Question. Could these bailouts actually hurt GM by turning people away from their products? What I mean is, people not buying a GM product simply because they are getting fed up with GM asking for these bailouts and perhaps buying a Ford product for the reason that they didn't take a bailout

No because there are many other factors turning people away from their products.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 40):
No. Well at least not for me. Im buying a 2009 Malibu LTZ in May. My current car is a Honda, but GM has impressed me with the new Malibu. Totally different car from 5 years ago.

Not to mention much cheaper than it's Honda counterpart?

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 46):
Evne though, GM in Chapter 11, or Chapter 7 is going to make this recession into a depression and make it last at least four more years.

Doubtful, the scare mongering isn't going to work here. The best thing for GM to do is to file and stop stealing money from us with no recovery in sight. There are plenty of other auto makers to keep the industry alive and in a years time we will begin to recover.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
petertenthije
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RE: GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:32 pm



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 39):
'm sure that there are people who do think this way, as there are people who may want to support GM even more now. But, could this type of PR actually damage GM in the long run?

Probably not for the consumers. GM's cars are getting better, and good deals can be had now. But I would expect suppliers and sub-contractors to be less willing to conduct business as usual. They will probably demand stronger bank guarantees. This will make the GM cars more expensive to manufacture.
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