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alberchico
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Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:20 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7891856.stm

It seems that Chaves now has more time to implement his reforms and change Venezuela for the better. And contrary to some claims, he will still have to run for re-election just like in any other country, so its not like this is establishing a dictatorship.

Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:24 am



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........

 no 
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:12 am



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........

On the contrary. This is the first formal step for Venezuela to eventually become a de-jure neocommunist dictatorship. It's only a matter of time, until Hugo finds a way to suspend, if not eliminate the democratic process in Venezuela.

Furthermore, this will bring even more instability to the entire region, not just to countries like Bolivia and Nicaragua, where the neocommunists are already in power, but also in the rest of South, Central America and Mexico, where neocommunist groups are becoming bigger, more radical and even more violent (remember López Obrador in Mexico, when he proclaimed himself the "rightful" Mexican President on the same day Felipe Calderón, the actual election winner, was inaugurated as President of the United Mexican States?).
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:13 am

Venezuela is still three years away from the next elections anyway, that by itself with him is an eternity. . .

An article in the Brazilian media says that 80% of Venezuela's economy is based on oil. If oil doesn't bounce back, he might have a tough time in 2012.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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alberchico
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:19 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Furthermore, this will bring even more instability to the entire region, not just to countries like Bolivia and Nicaragua, where the neocommunists are already in power

First of all its not like South America was a paradise when the leaders were all capitalists and pro-US interests. Their inability to tacke serious issues in their countries was the reason the current generation of socialist leaders with progresive and controversial views. Its good to have change. Secondly they are not communists they are socialists. Those are 2 very different things. Hell even many European countries have socialist leaders and politicians !!!
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:35 am



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 4):
First of all its not like South America was a paradise when the leaders were all capitalists and pro-US interests. Their inability to tacke serious issues in their countries was the reason the current generation of socialist leaders with progresive and controversial views. Its good to have change. Secondly they are not communists they are socialists. Those are 2 very different things. Hell even many European countries have socialist leaders and politicians !!!

My memory may not be too good without some refreshing, but it seems to me that so called Socialist leaders in South America have not done too well by the people in past years. No one has in reality. Not a good idea for any country to relinquish the ability to control politicians time in office. That is why we have two terms here for the President. I wish it was for everyone, from congress on down to cities and towns.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:42 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Not a good idea for any country to relinquish the ability to control politicians time in office.

 checkmark 

And it's not as if Chavez frenzied run for total and permanent control of the country is that subtle either. So called 'socialism' is certainly no reason to mute all opposition media channels and take control of the rest.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:43 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
An article in the Brazilian media says that 80% of Venezuela's economy is based on oil. If oil doesn't bounce back, he might have a tough time in 2012.

I certainly hope oil won't rise to the astronomical figures it had, or else Chávez will have regained the same thing that kept him in power all along.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 4):
Hell even many European countries have socialist leaders and politicians !!!

Yeah, just look at what this caused in Germany the last year. It caused political chaos in the state of Hessen, making the country basically ungovernable for a year, because the Social-Democratic SPD, which campaigned under the promise to not get help from the Linkspartei (aka the Communist Party, the most recent name for the old DDR ruling party SED), broke its promise when the result put them into a dead heat with the conservative CDU. Basically, due to one party involving the SED, the very people that deny to this day that they ordered assassinations on those who tried to flee to the west, a federal state became ungovernable for a year. For them breaking their promise of maintaining zero tolerance towards the SED, the SPD has gotten the worst state election result in history and has dragged the party down for the upcoming federal elections as well.

Flirting with communists is the same as playing with fire: You can burn yourself at any time. And history has taught us that a socialist and communist rule means nothing but absolute failure.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:56 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 6):
to mute all opposition media channels and take control of the rest

Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea. The media is free to bash Chavez all they want and believe me there are plenty of news programs and newspapers that bash Chavez on a daily basis. And don't forget about the power of the Internet...
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:00 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 4):
First of all its not like South America was a paradise when the leaders were all capitalists and pro-US interests.

Yawn. You should research just how capitalists those military regimes were. Chronic abysmal monetary policy is yet another issue. Nine different currencies in Brazil in the last ~50-60 years. Lived through 5 of them before turning age 10.

[Edited 2009-02-15 21:03:56]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LAXintl
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:15 am

Viva El Presidente  idea 

Now that crazy man got his wish via the ballot box, we should respect the wishes of the Venezuelan people.

If they want a country akin to North Korea and Cuba and become internationally isolated or form a leftist alliance let them. Hope they have a good time doing it.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ual777
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:19 am



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):

Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea. The media is free to bash Chavez all they want and believe me there are plenty of news programs and newspapers that bash Chavez on a daily basis. And don't forget about the power of the Internet...

Wrong. He has pushed people out of government positions for voting against him and is nationalizing every industry he can get his grubby little hands on. Hell, they have 15-20% ANNUAL inflation!

paradise indeed  Yeah sure
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:59 am



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea.

Give it a few years.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
ogre727
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:08 am



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea. The media is free to bash Chavez all they want and believe me there are plenty of news programs and newspapers that bash Chavez on a daily basis. And don't forget about the power of the Internet...

What is exactly your point? you are referring to freedom of speech. The media bashes presidents in all countries. Wait! not in all countries. Cuba does expel or jail people who express their views against the government...

I do have to say, though, that this was a decision made by the people, so one has to respect it. I disagree 100% with their choice and in fact think that the same people who voted for him will suffer from his lack of ... well, this would be an endless list.

Anwyays, still, you have to respect the results.
I am between the devil and the deep blue sea
 
Lufthansa411
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:27 am

Hey, as long as the people are happy, let Chavez lead for however long he wants. After all, government is created for the people, not against them (or at least in theory)

Time will tell whether this is a good "world" idea or not. But for right now, the people of Venezuela that it was the correct Venezuelan idea.
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
JJJ
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:14 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
My memory may not be too good without some refreshing, but it seems to me that so called Socialist leaders in South America have not done too well by the people in past years.

There's some refreshing: Lula in Brazil and Bachelet in Chile.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:39 am

Oscar Arias Sanchez ,president of Costa Rica ,is to me the most well respected politician in the Middle/South American landscape.Hugo should take some lessons of political maturity from Sanchez. The outcome of the vote in Venezuela can not be disputed-the vote was free and no major incidents happened.But the bottom-line is that the Venezuelans voted not a Social Democrat but a hardcore militant socialist- which are two pair of shoes.
But we as outsiders should refrain from giving lessons to other countries,since our own,democratically elected leaders,are quite often not what they appear to be on the voting-posters.
Working into their own pockest is a national sport excercised by many "Western" leaders under their cover of respectability.The late Lebanese President Hariri was a qualified crook who amassed billions and drained the finances of Lebanon's reconstruction budget into his own "Solidaire company".
African leaders usually amasse millions within just months in power-where does the money come from ? Right-usually from US or European petrol or nuclear companies,pharmaceutical groups or agriculture multinationals.
Italy's Berlusconi is mixing state and personal business all day long,political bribery is national sport and the "people" just get brainwashed with sanitized political statements on TV to calm their anger.
What has this all to do with Chavez- simply that he is not much better or worse than his most likely contenders.
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baroque
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:47 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
And history has taught us that a socialist and communist rule means nothing but absolute failure.

Yes those Scandinavian countries are in a truly scandalous condition - you will find that the same history book tells you that is why they are called SCANDinavian countries.  rotfl   rotfl   eyepopping 

There are limits to the levels of hyperbole you should use. Aside from anything else, Hugo, so far, has not actually been an absolute failure. Certainly not as much of an absolute failure as a rather right wing guy who was in charge of a country to his north??
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:51 am



Quoting JJJ (Reply 15):
There's some refreshing: Lula in Brazil and Bachelet in Chile.

Lula has a heavy burden on his shoulders by allowing the uncontrolled spreading of "Bio-Fuel" agriculture into the Amazon rainforrest. This is an absolute NO-NO-NO to do-but guess who is pushing this devastating stupidity to spread all over South America and Asia ??? - You would have thought that some politicians have kept at least some neurones in their heads-but it seems they're all vanished !
They sell the future of their countries and ecological balance to some multinationals.
http://www.wrm.org.uy/bulletin/116/Brazil3.html
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
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moo
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:43 am



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):

Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
On the contrary. This is the first formal step for Venezuela to eventually become a de-jure neocommunist dictatorship.

I disagree, regardless of the fact that this is Chavez - artificial term limits are horrendously non-democratic.

Why shouldn't the public be allowed to keep a politician in power if they support his actions?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:19 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 16):
Oscar Arias Sanchez ,president of Costa Rica ,is to me the most well respected politician in the Middle/South American landscape.Hugo should take some lessons of political maturity from Sanchez. The outcome of the vote in Venezuela can not be disputed-the vote was free and no major incidents happened.But the bottom-line is that the Venezuelans voted not a Social Democrat but a hardcore militant socialist- which are two pair of shoes.

While Oscar Arias may be someone who's good in foreign policy, he historically neglected the most important of things, which is domestic policy.

Oscar Arias is only good as an example of how to make better foreign policy in the region, but as far as domestic policies are concerned, he's just the same disaster as his predecesors were (including he himself in his first term between 1986 and 1990).

Quoting Moo (Reply 19):
I disagree, regardless of the fact that this is Chavez - artificial term limits are horrendously non-democratic.

In a parliamentary system, I'd agree, but not in a presidential system. Germany has no term limit for the office of Chancellor, yet the President of Germany can only be re-elected once. We're talking about a Presidential system, where the President of both head of state and head of the government. In that case, it can simply be too much power for a single person, which is why I agree with term limits. If we were talking about a Prime Minister or Federal Chancellor, then it's a different thing because the head of state and head of government are two different people, more in line with the separation of powers.
 
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moo
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:31 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
In a parliamentary system, I'd agree, but not in a presidential system. Germany has no term limit for the office of Chancellor, yet the President of Germany can only be re-elected once. We're talking about a Presidential system, where the President of both head of state and head of the government. In that case, it can simply be too much power for a single person, which is why I agree with term limits. If we were talking about a Prime Minister or Federal Chancellor, then it's a different thing because the head of state and head of government are two different people, more in line with the separation of powers.

So? If they still enjoy the support of the majority of the general voting public, then why should they be forced to leave office?
 
mt99
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:52 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 21):
f they still enjoy the support of the majority of the general voting public,

What makes you think Venezuela's election system is up to par? How do you confirm that it is the majorities desire?
Step into my office, baby
 
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moo
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:09 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 22):
What makes you think Venezuela's election system is up to par? How do you confirm that it is the majorities desire?

As I said in my original post -

Quoting Moo (Reply 19):
regardless of the fact that this is Chavez

I am against term limits in totality. If the election system isn't up to par, how can you confirm that the next person voted in is the intended winner of the election anyway? Term limits doesn't lessen that issue at all, because someone can always put a puppet in power and work the strings (think Putin...).

Term limits solve nothing other than forcing the voting public to choose someone else, regardless of whether or not they actually would choose someone else.
 
AM744
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:21 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
My memory may not be too good without some refreshing, but it seems to me that so called Socialist leaders in South America have not done too well by the people in past years.

In Mexico, center-left governments have worked in the past. From the top of my head Lázaro Cárdenas and Adolfo López Mateos had good periods establishing some companies and institutes (infrastructure included) that are still relevant on Mexico's development (regardless of what ultra-market-oriented governments would like us to believe): Federal Commission of Electricity, PEMEX, National Polytechnic Institute, etc.

Those two guys did waaaay better that Carlos Salinas and Vicente Fox, for example.

I'm not comparing them to Chavez of course, for they were democratically elected (well, according to Mexico's standards at the time) and relinquished power after the legal 6 years period.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can actually work on your country's best interests and still be succesful. Governments can't be driven exlusively by economic criteria. There should be a social agenda too. I'm not implying Chavez is doing that, though. To me, his grip on power is questionable.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:14 pm



Quoting AM744 (Reply 24):
The point I'm trying to make is that you can actually work on your country's best interests and still be succesful. Governments can't be driven exlusively by economic criteria. There should be a social agenda too. I'm not implying Chavez is doing that, though. To me, his grip on power is questionable.

We will have to see what happens with Chavez. It would seem that too much power is always the weakness and leads to suppression and curruption.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
757gb
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:52 pm

Fact - A majority of Venezuelans voted in favor of the referendum

Fact - Democratic processes have been undermined for some time in Venezuela, shutting down opposition

Opinion - This guy has done and will do a lot of damage to Venezuela and other Latin American countries. He is a demagogue and knows how to control masses. In my opinion he will do good as long as he can continue to impress the masses. If the economy goes south and those people feel the pain, then he might be in trouble.

It's all up to the Venezuelan people. I've seen leaders control large portions of the population with promises, brain washing, talks of imperial enemies and what not. It is usually in their best interest to keep people interested in a limited spectrum of topics, and NOT to question beyond that. And there are populations that slowly sink into that behavior. You can learn what those topics are simply listening to a short speech (2 hours is considered short for him). The longer he is in power the better his chances to achieve that (if he hasn't already). Questioning is important in all cultures. If you remove opposition leaders that can show a different path to the people, then you get an easier ride unless your economy fails you.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:25 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
it seems to me that so called Socialist leaders in South America have not done too well by the people in past years

-
With my "Latin America experience" limited to a two hours walk-around in Matomoros and then returning back to Texas, I am quite the contrary of a "LatinAmerica expert" but from the news over the past decades my impression was that almost NONE of the Latin American leaders has excelled ............
 
Danfearn77
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:34 pm

This means he can now stay as long as he likes. He can now rig the votes and be allowed to stay in, whereas before he could rig the votes but he wouldnt be allowed to stand as President as his term length had run out.

A sad day for democracy......
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:43 pm



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 28):
A sad day for democracy......

-
If I understand it correctly, he has to get into presidential elections each time he wants to continue. So that it is NOT a "life-presidency". Hopefully also NOT to become one later !
 
PSA53
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:47 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........

On the contrary. This is the first formal step for Venezuela to eventually become a de-jure neocommunist dictatorship. It's only a matter of time, until Hugo finds a way to suspend, if not eliminate the democratic process in Venezuela

Remember,Hitler was all smiles, gave autographs and received flowers on the campaign trail.Then he came to power and stop smiling.Rest is history.

Chavez power flexing is very clear.There is no mistake about this dictators intentions.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:37 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 30):
Remember,Hitler was all smiles, gave autographs and received flowers on the campaign trail.Then he came to power and stop smiling.Rest is history.

-
When he became Imperial Chancellor, he was head of a coalition government, as lacking a majority very widely. But he then "got" the Reichstag-Fire which served him to impose special measures to curb the crisis. He only after that got the full power. And after Imperial President, Field Marshal Hindenburg, finally resigned, he took over the presidency as well and re-named the Presidency into "Leader of the German Empire" (Führer des Deutschen Reichs). He actually only became dictator in 1934/35.
-
So that I fear that Mr Chavez now will look out for a way to abolish impending presidential elections.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:45 pm



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...  

Now there's a shocker...  no 
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:08 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
With my "Latin America experience" limited to a two hours walk-around in Matomoros and then returning back to Texas, I am quite the contrary of a "LatinAmerica expert" but from the news over the past decades my impression was that almost NONE of the Latin American leaders has excelled ............

Quite right, thanks for pointing that out. I got hung up on the Socialist type.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:16 am



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 30):
Remember,Hitler was all smiles, gave autographs and received flowers on the campaign trail.Then he came to power and stop smiling.Rest is history.

Exactly. And let's remember the similarities as to how both Hitler and Chávez got to power. Both tried a coup d'état, failed, were basically pardoned and later obtained power legally.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 30):
Chavez power flexing is very clear.There is no mistake about this dictators intentions.

 checkmark 

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
And after Imperial President, Field Marshal Hindenburg, finally resigned, he took over the presidency as well and re-named the Presidency into "Leader of the German Empire" (Führer des Deutschen Reichs). He actually only became dictator in 1934/35.

From what I remember, Hindenburg never resigned. He simply became an absolutely powerless figurehead.

You may be confusing the fact that Hindenburg signed the Enabling Act into law, which meant that from now on, Hitler could turn decisions directly into law without the blessing of both chambers of parliament and the signature of the President. In a way, you could see it as the President resigning his post, but factually, Paul von Hindenburg remained in office until his death on August 2 1934, which was also when Hitler took the opportunity to fuse the office of Chancellor and President into what became known as "Führer und Reichskanzler".
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:22 am

This hatred for socialism or social democracy by some is disturbing. After all social democratic countries are consistently at the top of any comparison of living standards.

To the Venezuelan election.
Fact is that all observers invited from among others the European Parliament considered this election to be free and fair.
Why are some complaining when a fair and free election was held?
Fair and free elections are what democracy is about.
If the people of Venezuela wouldn't have wanted Chavez they could have voted for the opposition but so far they haven't.
The people of Venezuela thinks Chavez would do a better job than the opposition and thats why he is winning.

Whenever we speak about South America and the enormous changes taking place there at the moment we tend to forget that all their new constitutions and new presidents actually are voted in by the people. The people want changes and are confirming changes in election after election.

We shall also remember what happened in Venezuela a few years ago.
There was an attempt at a coup d'état on April 11, 2002. Other nations interfered and for a brief time Chavez was detained. The people took to the streets protesting against this and without public support the military and the police wouldn't protect the coupmakers.

As with most leaders that have seen attempted coup against them, they tend to become more extreme and more confrontational. Its no surprise that this has happened in Venezuela and the powers behind the coup must have known what the result of failure would be.
Or perhaps they didn't have good intelligence...
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
baroque
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:22 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 35):
Why are some complaining when a fair and free election was held?

Now now, MillwallS, you know perfectly well that elections are supposed to elect the interests that are receiving vocal support in the west.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 35):
We shall also remember what happened in Venezuela a few years ago.
There was an attempt at a coup d'état on April 11, 2002. Other nations interfered and for a brief time Chavez was detained. The people took to the streets protesting against this and without public support the military and the police wouldn't protect the coupmakers.

As with most leaders that have seen attempted coup against them, they tend to become more extreme and more confrontational. Its no surprise that this has happened in Venezuela and the powers behind the coup must have known what the result of failure would be.
Or perhaps they didn't have good intelligence...

 ouch  You mean they were being advised by the CIA?

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 35):
Whenever we speak about South America and the enormous changes taking place there at the moment we tend to forget that all their new constitutions and new presidents actually are voted in by the people. The people want changes and are confirming changes in election after election.

Just awful this democracy, we will have to fix it - again! How dare these Latins think they know best?
 
ual777
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:32 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 35):

To the Venezuelan election.
Fact is that all observers invited from among others the European Parliament considered this election to be free and fair.
Why are some complaining when a fair and free election was held?
Fair and free elections are what democracy is about.
If the people of Venezuela wouldn't have wanted Chavez they could have voted for the opposition but so far they haven't.
The people of Venezuela thinks Chavez would do a better job than the opposition and thats why he is winning.

What is fair? Chavez has used government workers to campaign for him. I am not saying he stuffed the ballot boxes, but I am saying that he is able to campaign far more effectively than the opposition because he makes speeches that are required to be broadcast on TV by all news channels. Must be nice.

Further, with 30% inflation I think he will have serious issues in 2012.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
757gb
Posts: 374
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:30 am



Quoting UAL777 (Reply 37):

I agree. Nobody is saying the election was rigged or a fraud. But there is a lot of groundwork done previously. Silencing the opposition is only part of it. The longer he is in power, the more groundwork he's able to lay.

I understand and respect people who might have sympathy for him, based on political options.
But you only have to listen to a speech to realize where he comes from.
He's a hypocrite and nothing changes that. Just as a sample, look at all his anti US rhetoric, always demonizing them. Yet not even for a moment will he entertain the idea of not selling them oil.

Again, people can argue based on political beliefs, but this guy is dangerous. His game is clear. Like I said before, it's up to the Venezuelans. But I personally live in South America and get so frustrated by the attitude of so many people who want easy answers, a messiah who will tell them what they want to hear, instead of analyzing, figuring out right and wrong and taking action through democracy. It can be painful to accept some realities, so people choose to believe someone who says what they want to hear. Yes, there have been changes. But democracy needs to mature a lot more in this region.

There was a vote and the referendum won. I have to respect that.
What I am referring to is deeper than that. We can choose to analyze it or play it as a sport, simply cheering for the team we sympathize with.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:43 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
Hindenburg never resigned.

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He did on 2nd August 1934, and then, Hitler took over the function of Imperial President and re-named this function into "Leader of the German Empire" while retaining his function as Imperial Chancellor.
-

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
you could see it as the President resigning his post

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I could see so, but do NOT. He remained Imperial President, whenever of course not only being increasingly powerless, but also increasingly senile.
-
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:12 pm



Quoting 757GB (Reply 38):
I agree. Nobody is saying the election was rigged or a fraud. But there is a lot of groundwork done previously. Silencing the opposition is only part of it. The longer he is in power, the more groundwork he's able to lay.

I understand and respect people who might have sympathy for him, based on political options.
But you only have to listen to a speech to realize where he comes from.
He's a hypocrite and nothing changes that. Just as a sample, look at all his anti US rhetoric, always demonizing them. Yet not even for a moment will he entertain the idea of not selling them oil.

Again, people can argue based on political beliefs, but this guy is dangerous. His game is clear. Like I said before, it's up to the Venezuelans. But I personally live in South America and get so frustrated by the attitude of so many people who want easy answers, a messiah who will tell them what they want to hear, instead of analyzing, figuring out right and wrong and taking action through democracy. It can be painful to accept some realities, so people choose to believe someone who says what they want to hear. Yes, there have been changes. But democracy needs to mature a lot more in this region.

There was a vote and the referendum won. I have to respect that.
What I am referring to is deeper than that. We can choose to analyze it or play it as a sport, simply cheering for the team we sympathize with.

A very reasonable and measured reply-thanks for that !
In terms of democracy South America is at least one generation ahead of the Middle East.
So yes-people like Morales ,Lula and Hugo will use their demagogy to forge their image and sell their ideas,most likey fill their pockets and chanel friend into prominent positions.
The "average" people ( a horrible term -but well let's use it anyhow..) have elected all three of them freely-so it's their choice.( In the ME they quite often can't even have a choice..)
What worries me most is the ecological damage done to the South American subcontinent.Not too many people understand that their leaders sell of their countries to forces they don't control neither understand.Nobody talks about the farmers killed in Brazil or Argentina who refuse to bend the Bio-Fuel and Soy-bean mafia..

http://nacla.org/node/1417
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Danfearn77
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:41 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 28):
A sad day for democracy......

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If I understand it correctly, he has to get into presidential elections each time he wants to continue. So that it is NOT a "life-presidency". Hopefully also NOT to become one later !

Yes, presidential elections still need to take place, but now he can just simply rig the votes, meaning he can stay as long as he wishes. He couldnt rig the votes before, because even if he won 100%, he had run his maximum term length.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:05 pm



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 41):
now he can just simply rig the votes

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This unfortunately is to be feared !
 
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LTU932
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:47 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 39):
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
Hindenburg never resigned.

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He did on 2nd August 1934,

Incorrect. He did leave office on August 2nd 1934, but not through resignation, but rather through death. At no moment in time did Hindenburg resign his post as Reichspräsident (Ersatzkaiser).
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:58 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 35):
This hatred for socialism or social democracy by some is disturbing. After all social democratic countries are consistently at the top of any comparison of living standards.

Maybe, it just seems easier for Socialist, or people who claim to be, to more easily slip into a more Non-Democratic form of government. Marxist theory, "the stage following Capitalism in the transition to Communism".
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:29 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
Maybe, it just seems easier for Socialist, or people who claim to be, to more easily slip into a more Non-Democratic form of government.

I think it's the other way around. People who are enclined to reach a position of absolute power and undisputed control within a country, preferrably a poor one or one with a large class of underprivileged low class workers, tend to use the argument of 'socialism' as an ideological plumpy carrot for those classes to rally to his cause. In those cases, the sweet talking is usually nothing more than powder in the eyes...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:31 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 45):
think it's the other way around. People who are enclined to reach a position of absolute power and undisputed control within a country, preferrably a poor one or one with a large class of underprivileged low class workers, tend to use the argument of 'socialism' as an ideological plumpy carrot for those classes to rally to his cause. In those cases, the sweet talking is usually nothing more than powder in the eyes...

I agree certainly, that is what I meant, people who claim to be Socialist to give the people hope,( the people own everything, when in reality, they own nothing.) many times turn out to be the oppressors of those same people after they attain power.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
baroque
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:37 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 45):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
Maybe, it just seems easier for Socialist, or people who claim to be, to more easily slip into a more Non-Democratic form of government.

I think it's the other way around.

Quite so. Those from the left who follow that path are acting against socialist principles. Those on the right who follow it can point to their rule being in accord with many right wing principles.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:32 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 43):
He did on 2nd August 1934,

Incorrect. He did leave office on August 2nd 1934, but not through resignation, but rather through death. At no moment in time did Hindenburg resign his post as Reichspräsident (Ersatzkaiser).

Totally correct ! As I meant D I E D and not "did". Sorry !
-
 
757gb
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:11 pm

RE: Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...

Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:04 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 40):
The "average" people ( a horrible term -but well let's use it anyhow..) have elected all three of them freely-so it's their choice.

I know what you mean. If you want to understand how people are controlled you need to gauge their education and how much they are bound to question or if they'll simply accept what they are told because they want to believe. I don't think myself to be above anyone, but I do choose to think and question.

The way I put it is:
I will vote for someone who can represent the way I think, but I will NOT let them do my thinking for me.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 40):

http://nacla.org/node/1417

Interesting article Beaucaire, I wasn't aware of that. Thank you.

Regards,
GB
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...

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