Mike89406
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:28 pm

Former President Bill Clinton, defended himself against critics labeling him on Time Magazine's 25 people to blame for the Economy. What does everyone think?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090216/us_time/08599187977400

Mike

[Edited 2009-02-17 06:34:37]
 
windy95
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:07 pm

Greenspan said the same thing. Sorry but guilty as charged
 
EMBQA
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:37 pm

It was his administration that pushed banks and mortage companies to lower application standards. In many cases the only way this could be done is through Interest Only loans with the balloon payments after several years. The idea pushed was to flip the house before the balloon payments came due. Well those several years are starting to come due and they can't make the payments and are now defaulting on the loans. Also... look at the 2000 HUD Hearings when Republicans starting asking questions about this very subject...and watch the responses from the Democrats holding the hearings. "How DARE you accuse Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac of doing things that could lead to a collapse" Turn the clock forward 8 years......!!!! Keep in mind... Clinton WAS President at that time.

[Edited 2009-02-17 07:40:25]
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Dreadnought
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:35 pm

Sorry, but Times' list of 25 is woefully incomplete. Where are people like Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, and a host of other people who either promoted or defended the idea of making loans to people who could not qualify for traditional mortgages? And while Gramm deserve some of the blame for his exemption of credit default swaps, he certainly does not belong at the top of the heap. Hank Paulson - hardly the most competant of Treasury Secretaries (at least he could figure out his taxes), but his short career had no time to set off any of the building blocks of the meltdown, the roots of which go all the way back to the 60s (the advent of credit cards and the idea that you could spend money you did not have).

BTW, have you heard that your credit card interest might be popping up to 30% or more? Now there's predatory banking for you.
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seb146
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:38 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
2000 HUD Hearings when Republicans starting asking questions about this very subject

I find it very inetersting that everyone is so willing to pin the blame on Clinton, but no one is pinning the blame on Bush or the Republicans who controlled Congress for how many years and could have acutally reinstated any of that. Didn't Congressional Republicans also have to approve the changes to the rules as well? No one is blaming them. Can someone point out the "liberal media bias" in all of this and all of the news of late?
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EMBQA
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:05 pm

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 4):

I find it very inetersting that everyone is so willing to pin the blame on Clinton, but no one is pinning the blame on Bush or the Republicans who controlled Congress for how many years and could have acutally reinstated any of that.

While true.... which way did Congress vote....??? In many of the years you're talking about the majority was only a vote or two and several on the Republicans are RINO's. There are plenty to blame... look at the average Americans credit card debt... and how many each of us have. We, just like our Gov't are spending way outside our means. Sure I'd love to have a 200K dollar house, but right now I can't afford one. Sure I'd love to have a Benz C32.. but I can't afford one. Sure I'd love a HiDef flat screen.. but it's not in my budget. The greed of CEO's that destroy one company and then go to a second and the idiot Board allow him in the door.... and destroy that company.. and all along walks out the door with a golden parachute from BOTH companies

[Edited 2009-02-17 09:15:49]
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seb146
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:48 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
In many of the years you're talking about the majority was only a vote or two and several on the Republicans are RINO's.

This just tells me the Republican party of today does not care about the average American. They still moved and worked in lock-step for the best interest of corporations and their own and not for the blue collar/working people of this country.
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EMBQA
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Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:19 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):

Aah what that means is although the Republicans held the majority in number, they did not hold the majority in votes. RINO is Republican In Name Only...meaning they actually hold the values of the Democratic party...so by your comment you are says the Democrats are a party of the big corporation....which most will tell you is not true.
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seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:24 am



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
Aah what that means is although the Republicans held the majority in number, they did not hold the majority in votes.

Your post makes no sense. If a party has the majority, they are the majority party. If they do not get legislation passed, it is because some within their own party decide to vote against it. There are some that are theoretical RINO Republicans, meaning whichever way the wind is blowing, they could be Republicans or Dems. Then, there are those that actually do what the majority of their constituants believe to be right. They are also placed in the RINO category. I have much more respect for elected officials like that than those that vote in their party's best interest. Remember Lieberman? I have no respect for him and, IMO, the people of CT should have thrown him out when they had the chance. McCain, when he was a middle-of-the-road type, was respectable. When he was running for president, I think he let too many people run things instead of him telling them all to take a hike.

Back on topic: The Republicans could have, at any point, slowed everyone down and explained how and why this was all a bad idea. But, not wanting to be obstructionists and not wanting oversite and checks and balances on corporations and banks by government, they decided it was a good idea to let banks go loan to anyone anytime. Yes, it happened under Clinton, but it could have been stopped at any time by Republicans. They, too, need to share in the blame.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:49 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 8):
If they do not get legislation passed, it is because some within their own party decide to vote against it.

Or the minority vote used the fillibuster.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:12 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 8):
If a party has the majority, they are the majority party. If they do not get legislation passed, it is because some within their own party decide to vote against it.

The Republican majority in the Senate was never more than 51 or 52 seats as I recall - far less than the 60 required to pass major legislation.

Like it or not, the Republican Senate was always far more bipartisan than our current Senate, by necessity. They needed to win over a substantial number of Dems to do anything. Getting 10 or so is exponentially harder than getting 2 or 3.

It also means that it was impossible to do anything that the Democrats were seriously opposed to - such as Fanny/Freddie oversight reform, to name a key example.
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Superfly
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:17 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
The Republican majority in the Senate was never more than 51 or 52 seats as I recall - far less than the 60 required to pass major legislation.

 redflag 
The Republicans had 55 Senate seats after the 1996 election.
Also, there are/were at least 10 conservative Democrats from the south, upper plains and rural west that often sided with the Republicans.

Quoting Mike89406 (Thread starter):
What does everyone think?

To quote Phil Gramm, this is a nation of whinners!  Silly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AKrVptIdwQ
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:26 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
The Republicans had 55 Senate seats after the 1996 election.

Not at the same time as a Republican President.
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Superfly
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:33 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
The Republicans had 55 Senate seats after the 1996 election.

Not at the same time as a Republican President.

Thank God!

However, when Bush had 51 Republicans in the Senate, you had Landrieu, Breaux, Nelson, Conrad, Dorgan, Lincoln, Miller, Hollings, Graham and Lieberman that would often side with the Republicans.
The problem with the Republicans was that they didn't have the moderates on board.
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P3Orion
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:05 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
This just tells me the Republican party of today does not care about the average American. They still moved and worked in lock-step for the best interest of corporations and their own and not for the blue collar/working people of this country.

I am sick and tired of people painting Republicans as heartless and evil. I'll paint with a broad brush, see how you like it: How many snowmobiles, ATV's and '88 Camaros did the lunch pail Johnnies buy with their stimulus checks? How "low brow" does union leadership look when they wear a golf shirt with the union logo underneath a denim jacket with an even bigger union logo which usually covers an even bigger beer belly during press conferences (that looks professional  .

Not everyone can go to college, not everyone can own a house, not everyone can make six figures. As Americans, we have the right to pursue those things, not the right to have them.

Rant over.

[Edited 2009-02-17 19:15:44]
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WarRI1
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:24 am



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 14):
am sick and tired of people painting Republicans as heartless and evil. I'll paint with a broad brush, see how you like it: How many snowmobiles, ATV's and '88 Camaros did the lunch pail Johnnies buy with their stimulus checks? How "low brow" does union leadership look when they wear a golf shirt with the union logo underneath a denim jacket with an even bigger union logo which usually covers an even bigger beer belly during press conferences (that looks professional .

They may not be all heartless and evil, most certainly are in the pocket of the wealthy. I look at my financial worth, and dammed somebody has been doing Evil, who was it power when all this was allowed? Who controlled the watchdog functions of the government? Now the unions wearing those horrible shirts, that is all we can afford now after eight years of Republican policy. The beer bellys are also because they cannot afford wine and Champagne like the Republicans.  Sad  Sad
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cairo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:38 am

Sure, Clinton gets some blame for any seeds planted during his watch.

But, Bush gets even more blame for not starting to correct things 4, 3, and 2 years ago when the seeds had grown to weeds and eventually monsters - especially since his own family was so intimately involved in the S&L scandal which wiped out a big part of the US financial world 20 years ago.

Cairo
 
seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:36 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Like it or not, the Republican Senate was always far more bipartisan than our current Senate, by necessity.

More because they wanted their legislation passed under a Democratic president. They HAD to be bipartisan. Under Bush, it wasn't so important for a while. Now, they are screaming and crying because they are getting a taste of their own medicine.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 9):
Or the minority vote used the fillibuster.

And, to get anything done, the majority party can threaten to use the "nuclear option."

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 14):
I am sick and tired of people painting Republicans as heartless and evil.

I am sick and tired of people painting Democrats as terrorists who want nothing more than overhtrow the American government and telling everyone that Democrat is the exact same thing as a liberal which is the exact same thing as a terrorist and, no matter what label is used, the all are athiests and want nothing more than abort every single fetus and burn every single bible and turn every single kindergartner into a sex fiend and expect no one to work and have the government hand out every thing from iPods to cell phones to plasma TVs to food to houses. Talk about painting with a broad brush.
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Starbuk7
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:58 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 17):
Quoting P3Orion (Reply 14):
I am sick and tired of people painting Republicans as heartless and evil.

I am sick and tired of people painting Democrats as terrorists

Both parties are crap right now, and I feel that neither party cares about their people, just their own jobs. If the whole country would get together and vote out every incumbent and elect some new people into office we might see some change going the way that the American public feels.
 
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:10 pm



Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 18):
I feel that neither party cares about their people

I think both parties care only about their political agenda, or, making the other side of the aisle look bad; over what is best for the country. I am a Republican and, to me, the Party has lost it's way and bowed to the Christian right.
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seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:59 am



Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 18):
Both parties are crap right now, and I feel that neither party cares about their people, just their own jobs. If the whole country would get together and vote out every incumbent and elect some new people into office we might see some change going the way that the American public feels.

More than that, I feel more parties should get involved. I feel I have to vote Democrat to have my voice heard. They do not represent me, neither do Republicans. But, I side with Dems because I feel that is the only way I can be heard and, out of the two parties, they are much closer to my view of things. If we all got together and voted for anyone BUT Democrats or Republicans, I think things would shift to the better.

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 19):
I am a Republican and, to me, the Party has lost it's way and bowed to the Christian right.

And I feel the Dems have shifted to everyone else. They are trying to hard to please everyone that was disenfranchised from the Republican party. It is like corraling cats. There are so many splinter causes within the Democratic party and I feel that is why they have such a hard time getting anywhere. Whereas the Republican party is the party of Christians and "you are either with us or you are a terroist" mentality.
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PSA53
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:41 am



Quoting Cairo (Reply 16):
But, Bush gets even more blame for not starting to correct things 4, 3, and 2 years ago when the seeds had grown to weeds and eventually monsters

Bush did try. Bush sent up warning flags of potential housing meltdown as far back 2002,to my knowledge.It was Barney Franks and the Demos, who blocked any correction attempt from Bush and said "everything is fine"It was on a video from FOX,I'm trying find and review.

But there is plenty of blame to go around.
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PSA53
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:52 am

Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
cairo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:08 am



Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 18):
If the whole country would get together and vote out every incumbent and elect some new people into office we might see some change going the way that the American public feels.

*****PERFECT*****

The politicians in Washington all care about one thing only - keeping their jobs. Some solutions I hope we consider:

1. term limits
2. direct voting on legislation - every voter gets a secureID and internet access and votes directly on legislation
3. drafting legislators the way we do jury duty, with certain enhanced mimimum qualifications, but with great pay and the legal right to one day return to their old job

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 20):
There are so many splinter causes within the Democratic party and I feel that is why they have such a hard time getting anywhere

True, but this may be a good thing.

The Democrats, I think, are trying to become purely pragmatic with no set-in-stone ideology or agenda ----> do what works. This also means that lots of different ideas are tossed around and debate is enhanced beacause their is no dogma do fall back on.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 21):
Bush did try. Bush sent up warning flags of potential housing meltdown as far back 2002,to my knowledge.It was Barney Franks and the Demos, who blocked any correction attempt from Bush

Explain to me how you can claim Bush tried but was some how thwarted when the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress?

Cairo
 
PSA53
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:23 am



Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 21):
Bush did try. Bush sent up warning flags of potential housing meltdown as far back 2002,to my knowledge.It was Barney Franks and the Demos, who blocked any correction attempt from Bush

Explain to me how you can claim Bush tried but was some how thwarted when the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress?

Like I said,there's plenty of blame to go around and human nature is to thwart verbal warnings of an alarmist when times are good in any situation.But the main coarse in the last election was Bush's economy meltdown and to blame the Republicans..The mainstream media would never show you the Democratic party viewpoint from a adverse manner.And that's not correct.
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seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:54 pm



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 24):
The mainstream media would never show you the Democratic party viewpoint from a adverse manner.And that's not correct.

That still does not point to a particular talking point or speech or anything Bush said to ask for help for the current crisis. Also, there are plenty of sources that are more than willing to put the Dems in a bad light for even the slightest reason. Maybe that is why people think we do not need the "Fairness Doctrine." Since Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, et al. go on these rants about how horrid the Dems are and the NYT, CNN and MSNBC are percieved to be backing the Dems, those on the right honestly feel everything is fair.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
This also means that lots of different ideas are tossed around and debate is enhanced beacause their is no dogma do fall back on.

And, that is one point conservative commentators point to in their belief that the Democratic party is no good. I, for one, think hearing from all sides is a great idea. But, there is the school of thinking that only one front is the only front and any other ideas are wrong. That is the Republican way of thinking.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:24 pm



Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
The politicians in Washington all care about one thing only - keeping their jobs. Some solutions I hope we consider:

1. term limits
2. direct voting on legislation - every voter gets a secureID and internet access and votes directly on legislation
3. drafting legislators the way we do jury duty, with certain enhanced mimimum qualifications, but with great pay and the legal right to one day return to their old job

LOL, you are starting to sound like a conservative. The movement is based on a distrust of government.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
Explain to me how you can claim Bush tried but was some how thwarted when the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress?

Without 60 seats in the Senate, you don't really have control.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 25):
That still does not point to a particular talking point or speech or anything Bush said to ask for help for the current crisis.

Oh come on, do you really want us to look AGAIN for the links to all the testimony given before Congress in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 about how Fanny/Freddie were ticking time bombs?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 25):
Since Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, et al. go on these rants about how horrid the Dems are and the NYT, CNN and MSNBC are percieved to be backing the Dems, those on the right honestly feel everything is fair

Why do you make this stuff up? Things are not fair. We already know that the mainstream media will attribute the eventual turnaround in the economy to Obama and his stimulus package, and his wonderous leadership. The fix is in. But guess what - life is unfair, and conservatives can deal with it. It is not the conservatives who are trying to get some sort of Fairness Doctrine in place to shut up the New York Times or MSNBC. Have you heard any Republican saying anything about shutting them down.

Sorry, but is the liberal, "tolerant" left that cannot stand criticism and who are trying to shut down talk radio - the one conservative bastion in the media. And if they can figure out a way to shut down Fox News without harming their buddies at MSNBC and CNN, they would as well.
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tommy767
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:44 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 17):
I am sick and tired of people painting Democrats as terrorists who want nothing more than overhtrow the American government and telling everyone that Democrat is the exact same thing as a liberal which is the exact same thing as a terrorist and, no matter what label is used, the all are athiests and want nothing more than abort every single fetus and burn every single bible and turn every single kindergartner into a sex fiend and expect no one to work and have the government hand out every thing from iPods to cell phones to plasma TVs to food to houses. Talk about painting with a broad brush.

That might have been the mindset back in 2002/2003 during the early days of the 'patriot act' but it's not now. The media is totally on the side of the democrats. Very little criticism these days with Obama in the white house and the 'first 100 days.'

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 20):
More than that, I feel more parties should get involved. I feel I have to vote Democrat to have my voice heard. They do not represent me, neither do Republicans. But, I side with Dems because I feel that is the only way I can be heard and, out of the two parties, they are much closer to my view of things. If we all got together and voted for anyone BUT Democrats or Republicans, I think things would shift to the better.

I feel that back in 2004 the Democrats did not have their voices heard at all, because Kerry/Edwards was one of the weakest candidate tickets of the last 50 years (well, mondale or dole might have been weaker.) Either way, democratic voices have been heard and are now the majority.
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seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:56 pm



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 27):
That might have been the mindset back in 2002/2003 during the early days of the 'patriot act' but it's not now. The media is totally on the side of the democrats. Very little criticism these days with Obama in the white house and the 'first 100 days.'

Oh, no. It still continues today. Not one day goes by that I don't hear some conservative calling for Dems to just shut up and take it because Republicans/conservatives know what is best for the country and any other ideas about what anyone else thinks is best for the country is wrong and those people need to be silenced either because they are terrorists or because they are simply wrong.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
It is not the conservatives who are trying to get some sort of Fairness Doctrine in place to shut up the New York Times or MSNBC. Have you heard any Republican saying anything about shutting them down.

So, it is okay for one party/ideology, but not the other. Yeah, I would say that is fair. Working hard toward one-party (Communist) rule is fair, right?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Sorry, but is the liberal, "tolerant" left that cannot stand criticism and who are trying to shut down talk radio - the one conservative bastion in the media.

But when there is one unifying voice simply saying "everyone else is wrong and terrorists and Communists" with no other reasoning or fact to back that up, there really does need to be alternate voices for people to understand what is going on. The "toeralnt" left is actually very tolerant when the first things out of the oppositions' mouth is NOT "You are wrong" and "you just want to ruin the country." If conservative/"Republican" types would just argue their point without all the mud and name calling before even trying to make the hint of a point, maybe people from the center and left who think would take them seriously.
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Tango-Bravo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:06 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
Explain to me how you can claim Bush tried but was some how thwarted when the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress?

The point I was hoping someone would make...

The Republicans had 12 years as the majority party in both houses of Congress plus 6 years with a Republican administration. After winning both houses of Congress in 1994, about the only thing at which they "succeeded" was acting as if they had lost in the elections...and outdoing previous Congresses in big-spending and adding record trillion$ to an already troublesome federal debt. It was, in fact, during their watch that $4 trillion was added to the federal debt during the early years of the Bush administration alone... which is 4 times more than the total deficit that was incurred during the administrations of the previous 42 presidents combined!

Ironically, the most notable "accomplishment" of the Republican-controlled Congress from 1994 to 2006 was to "out-Democrat" the agenda of the Democrat minority. Which predictably alienated Republicans from their base and even more so from independent voters and, as they say, the rest (2006 and 2008 elections) is history for which the electorate is paying what has, in reality, already become an unsustainable price in the form of runaway spending funded by printing-press "funny money" for which there seems to be no end in sight, other than the ultimate collapse of the U.S. economy, which may be much closer than we would like to think. When banks from foreign nations who have been funding the ballooning deficit decide to "cut their losses" ...look out!

Bill Clinton certainly contributed to the current state of our economy, albeit to nowhere near the extent (in $heer number$) that George W. Bush and a complicit Republican majority "contributed" to our present state, which the Democrats now assure us will be "fixed" by doing the very same things that brought us to where we are today -- except their "fix" is doing much more of the very same things that put us in our present mess.

Let's see, the Democrats are now "out-Republicaning" the Republicans who were previously "out-Democrating" the Democrats with unsustainable spending schemes that have become nothing short of acutely life-threatening to our well-being and stability as a nation ...I'm confused, except for my certainty that we will pay a still more dreadful price for the out-of-control spending shenanigans of our elected officials at the federal level, be they Republicans or Democrats, President Clinton, Bush or Obama.

It has brought a sense of poetic justice to finally see blame rightfully pointed at Bill Clinton by none other than leftist propaganda media (such as Time) after all the years they covered up for him and his cronies (including Hillary), while straining at the proverbial gnat in trashing those who did not suit their leftist agenda while swallowing the proverbial camel in deflecting the misdeeds of the Clintons and their accomplices... for which any Republican or conservative would have been proverbially tarred-and-feathered had their misdeed(s) actual or alleged been one-tenth as serious as those committed by Clinton & Clinton, Inc.

[Edited 2009-02-19 14:09:15]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:07 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
But when there is one unifying voice simply saying "everyone else is wrong and terrorists and Communists" with no other reasoning or fact to back that up,

If you listen to Limbaugh (I'll pick him out because everyone else does) and say that he calls people "wrong and terrorists and Communists" without backing it up, you have not been listening. First of all he does not call people commies or terrorists. He might call your policies communist or say you are a terrorist sympathisor.

And as far as backing it up, he backs up his arguments quite well. The man has a prodigious memory, and recalls who said what years ago (and when you see him on the webcam you can see he's not reading a script - his show is 99% off-the-cuff).

You might disagree with his reasons. Fine. But to say that he gives none indicates you are incapable of logical thinking. Hardly surprising for liberals, but still, make an effort - turn away from the Dark Side.  Smile
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
UAL747
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:41 pm

I blame trash TV and MTV........and Mylie Cyrus.

Advertising and Idolizing people has gotten way too out of hand.

The actual American viewer thinks that the Kardashians or the "Real Housewives of Orange County" actually pay for all of those things they wear, do, fly on, drive, eat, drink, etc. They DON'T SPEND A DIME! MTV and the networks pay for it all.

Those people, while probably wealthy, do not really spend that much money, because they can't afford to. Being worth 10 or 20 million dollars today is not as much as people would like to think. Plus, the people that ARE worth that, or even MORE do not live like that.

My point is, people have this perceived image of what TV and American Society tells you you should be, and being accepted is way to important here. Or let me rephrase that, being different is not important enough. We spend in excess to live a champagne lifestyle on a beer budget and then we actually can't even afford beer anymore.....

It's your own damn fault. Sure, it's great to blame heads of state, but if you just didn't HAVE to have that new BMW, or if you just didn't HAVE to have that diamond watch, you might be in a better position. The American people have no one else to blame but themselves.

Now, the greedy companies, well, they are to blame too. They have gobs and gobs of people who get together to find ways to mindwarp you into buying whatever they have to sell. Remember it's like 200 minds all thinking of ways to just get to one mind, the mind of the consumer. You don't consult 200 people before making a large purchase, but the people who are selling it to you sure do.

We got ourselves into this entire mess. I have a friend who's grandfather was a billionaire, and it has now been split up between her aunts, parents, and uncles, and they are extremely conservative with their money and NEVER spend like we are shown on TV. While they have some extremely nice things, it's not this lavish party lifestyle and over indulgence on yachts sipping champagne and eating diamond incrusted caviar.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:45 pm



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
I have a friend who's grandfather was a billionaire, and it has now been split up between her aunts, parents, and uncles, and they are extremely conservative with their money and NEVER spend like we are shown on TV.

Which is why they are not broke -- and from all accounts exceptions to what typically happens to people who inherit large amounts of money or win million$ playing the lottery. History has shown that such people of good fortune have typically blown every dollar they gained -- and then some -- within 2-3 years, sometimes even less. All of which "goes to show" that there will always be more on which one can spend money than there ever will be money to spend. And, yes, those who manage to spend every penny they ever have (and often more) have absolutely, positively no one to blame but themselves. Unless of course they are literally robbed by another at gunpoint or by some other means, against their will.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
I blame trash TV and MTV........and Mylie Cyrus.



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
It's your own damn fault.

When all is said and done, how can it be both? Sure trash TV (which is something like 95% of the programming choices available) that consumers allow to create totally unrealistic expectations is not blameless, but ultimately it is consumers who choose to fall for the fallacies created by TV (and MTV) programs and advertising, so indeed it is 100% their own fault if they find themselves upside down financially due to falling for easy credit ripoffs that enable them to spend more than 100% of their incomes -- even when times are good and they are earning healthy incomes. Last I heard (back when times were said to be very good) the U.S. overall had a negative savings rate due to households spending, on average, 102% of their incomes. To my knowledge, no one was forced into such an untenable position -- even if credit issuers were irresponsible in allowing for such a situation to develop.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
Now, the greedy companies, well, they are to blame too. They have gobs and gobs of people who get together to find ways to mindwarp you into buying whatever they have to sell. Remember it's like 200 minds all thinking of ways to just get to one mind, the mind of the consumer.

True enough, although once again, so far as I know, there are no threats, coercion or intimidation involved in such techniques of inducing consumers to voluntarily separate themselves from their money. To me, the manner in which advertising stirs up and attempts to manipulate consumer emotions of emptiness, greed and covetousness is insulting, even scandalous, which I treat accordingly. Nonetheless, no one to my knowledge is prevented from tuning out on the nonsense and fallacies with which advertisers bombard us.

As for where presidents and politicians figure into the blame game... they are, after all, our leaders, self-serving as they may be, and therefore tend to influence behavior of the media-mesmerized, zombified simple-minded among us (which is two-thirds +/- of adults in the U.S.) which is clearly biased in favor of sending the message that we can spend more than we earn. And when government routinely spends well above its means, as it does in the U.S., even responsible consumers are essentially robbed by devaluation of their money through inflation or higher tax burdens or (usually) both -- a situation over which all consumers have very little to no control -- unlike consumers who choose to spend above their means.
 
seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:49 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
He might call your policies communist or say you are a terrorist sympathisor.

And that is okay? I disagree with what you believe so you will be dismissed in the most damaging way possible? I am very much against one-party rule, which is what some "conservative" commentators are leaning towards. If some of the "conservative" commentators had their way, the Republican party would be the only party and anyone else would be jailed a la Saddam's Iraq. And they are okay with that. They see no parallel there. There are those that follow these "conservative" commentators and think that would be just fine. Jail every bastard that even dares think center or left. And this is acceptable? Michelle Obama was wrong to say she is proud of this country with comments like this being praised.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
cairo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:17 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The movement is based on a distrust of government.

You may perceive Republicans that way, which may in your mind make you align with the Republicans, but Bush set new records for governent size and deficits (almost certainly to be exeeded by Obama...), which means Republican trust in government was great and growing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Without 60 seats in the Senate, you don't really have control.

Except for items that were written directly into law by Congress, the president can change a lot of government policy by executive order. For instance, he could have stipulated higher credit requirements for lending at Fannie Mae and any FDIC insured bank, among numerous other federal regulations he could have changed if he was really worried about the Clinton-era de-regulation that is said to be a foundation of the crisis.

IMO a lot of this financial chaos could have been stoped or severely reduced simply by changing a few regulations, credit minimums, etc....that would probably fill less than a page of federal regulations.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
if they can figure out a way to shut down Fox News

I think you're missing something the Dems discovered in the 08 cycle - Fox News is one of the best friends of the Democratic party.....Why? Because everyone over 35 has mostly determined how they'll vote for life, while the < 35s look to various media sources to form their opinion and nothing turns off young people like Fox News. Fox routinely lampoons environmentalism, multi-culturalism, while promoting the social views of the religious right...all of which repels young people in great numbers.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
But when there is one unifying voice simply saying "everyone else is wrong and terrorists and Communists"

See above about Fox News. The best thing the Republicans do for the Democrats is trumpet their social policies (anti-gay; anti-immigrant; anti-abortion; pro-gun) and revert to fear-mongering (terrorists everywhere!). It only appeals to the audience who would only ever vote Republican anyway.

Cairo
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 33):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
He might call your policies communist or say you are a terrorist sympathisor.

And that is okay?

If it's true, yes.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 33):
I disagree with what you believe so you will be dismissed in the most damaging way possible?

What are you talking about? Are we not allowed to be descriptive? When Helen Thomas refers to Al Qaeda as "so-called terrorists", he is being a terrorist sympathizer. Not that I've heard her called that, but it would be completely legitimate.

Which brings me to the next question - how often have you heard Americans refered to as terrorists and communists, as you claim. Sources?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 33):
I am very much against one-party rule, which is what some "conservative" commentators are leaning towards.

You are being paranoid. Show me a source.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 33):
If some of the "conservative" commentators had their way, the Republican party would be the only party and anyone else would be jailed a la Saddam's Iraq. And they are okay with that.

That is utter and complete crap, and I want you to admit that you are exagurating. The Democrats are the ones who are pulling every stop to ensure their power buy buying votes - getting as many people in some way dependant or at least grateful for government largesse.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 34):
You may perceive Republicans that way, which may in your mind make you align with the Republicans, but Bush set new records for governent size and deficits (almost certainly to be exeeded by Obama...), which means Republican trust in government was great and growing.

You are correct, and that was the problem with Neoconservatism, which was the mixture of right-wing foreign policy with liberal economic policy.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 34):
IMO a lot of this financial chaos could have been stoped or severely reduced simply by changing a few regulations, credit minimums, etc....that would probably fill less than a page of federal regulations

I am no expert in the specifics of what could have been done by executive order and what cannot. You may well be right. But I doubt that the president could have made real changes without the agreement of Congress.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 34):
I think you're missing something the Dems discovered in the 08 cycle - Fox News is one of the best friends of the Democratic party.....Why? Because everyone over 35 has mostly determined how they'll vote for life, while the < 35s look to various media sources to form their opinion and nothing turns off young people like Fox News. Fox routinely lampoons environmentalism, multi-culturalism, while promoting the social views of the religious right...all of which repels young people in great numbers.

You may well be right. Fine. Let people say what they want. This is exactly why the 1st amendment exists.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 34):
See above about Fox News. The best thing the Republicans do for the Democrats is trumpet their social policies (anti-gay; anti-immigrant; anti-abortion; pro-gun) and revert to fear-mongering (terrorists everywhere!). It only appeals to the audience who would only ever vote Republican anyway.

 Yeah sure
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WunalaYann
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:03 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
You may well be right. Fine. Let people say what they want. This is exactly why the 1st amendment exists.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 34):
See above about Fox News. The best thing the Republicans do for the Democrats is trumpet their social policies (anti-gay; anti-immigrant; anti-abortion; pro-gun) and revert to fear-mongering (terrorists everywhere!). It only appeals to the audience who would only ever vote Republican anyway.


May I ask why you put a "sarcastic" smiley at the end of Cairo's point, when he is only stating the same view on a similar topic, with which you seem to agree?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:26 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 36):
May I ask why you put a "sarcastic" smiley at the end of Cairo's point, when he is only stating the same view on a similar topic, with which you seem to agree?

Because of the cliche catch phrases he uses. Not being pro-gay does not make us anti-gay. We are not anti-immigrant - the catch phrase conveniently leaves out the word "illegal", as in anti-illegal immigration, as in you are welcome to come, but follow the rules. I am pro-choice, and for reasonable gun control (i.e. automatic weapons should be reserved for military and police). And as for fear-mongering, Obama has been far worse than Bush ever was with his Chicken-Little act about it being the end of the world if the Porkulus Bill was not passed.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:36 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Not being pro-gay does not make us anti-gay. We are not anti-immigrant - the catch phrase conveniently leaves out the word "illegal", as in anti-illegal immigration, as in you are welcome to come, but follow the rules. I am pro-choice, and for reasonable gun control (i.e. automatic weapons should be reserved for military and police).

Agreed.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
And as for fear-mongering, Obama has been far worse than Bush ever was with his Chicken-Little act about it being the end of the world if the Porkulus Bill was not passed.

Disagreed. Obama has been fear-mongering about the economy which, while a very serious matter for millions of people, is still in the realm of manageable. Bush resorted to scare tactics about invading other countries living tens of thousands of innocent people dead.

The causes and, far more tragically, the consequences of both adminstrations' fear-mongering are very different. And that, in my opinion, is not a cliché catch phrase but a terrible reality.

 Smile
 
cairo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:28 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
You are correct, and that was the problem with Neoconservatism, which was the mixture of right-wing foreign policy with liberal economic policy.

Well, I am from Texas, and I can say that in Texas G Bush showed none of the beliefs we associate with the Neocons. I am genuinely saddened that he got to Washington and his newcomer status allowed others "more knowledgeable" to essentially take over. Specifically, there was a large and powerful contingent of aggressive foreign policy hawks who believe Israel's interests are prime and that the ME should be managed militariliy.

Only in about the last 2 years of his administration did he (to me anyway) resememble some of the attractive qualities that made him a good governor in Texas (admitting failures when they happen, compromising)...I think he eventually came to see that Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld and the war people, while possibly valuable, should not be followed at all costs.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Not being pro-gay does not make us anti-gay.

I can't resist - gay people may be thinking, "If you aren't for us, you are against us." Sound familiar?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Obama has been far worse than Bush ever was with his Chicken-Little act about it being the end of the world if the Porkulus Bill was not passed

No.

Obama has been here for a month, Bush did this for 7 years or so...but did tone it down in the end. He would often appear in front of miltary crowds and would (IMO criminally) use the dedication of the military as a justification for his deadly foreign policy goals, among other insiduous invocations of patriotic themes to promote partisan policies.

Obama has said bad things will happen without the stimulus. (which btw I don't necessarily agree with) Bush said, paraphrasing, crazy Arabs will appear out of the bushes and kill your children if we don't invade xxxxxx xxxxx or continue the wars xxxxx. There is a difference.

Cairo
 
seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:17 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
how often have you heard Americans refered to as terrorists and communists, as you claim. Sources?

Bush: "You are either with us or with the terrorists." Conservative commentators ran with this and parroted this while wrapping themselved in the flag.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
You are being paranoid. Show me a source.

Listen to the conservative commentators on the days the talking points in nationalism. They will droan on and on about anyone standing in the way of their party's ideas are terrorists and are evil.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
That is utter and complete crap, and I want you to admit that you are exagurating.

No. This is why I suffer through these conservative commentators. I hear hate speach like this especially when the talking points are about terrorists and nationalism.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 39):
I can't resist - gay people may be thinking, "If you aren't for us, you are against us." Sound familiar?

Reminds me of another quote from all over: If you don't agree with gay marrige, don't marry one!

Quoting Cairo (Reply 39):
resememble some of the attractive qualities that made him a good governor in Texas (admitting failures when they happen, compromising)...

There was some compomising, but I don't recall him admitting failures. I do not recall him personally standing up and saying "I was wrong." I recall "somethings maybe should have been done differently." Not exactly owning up to mistakes, IMO.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:58 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 40):
Bush: "You are either with us or with the terrorists." Conservative commentators ran with this and parroted this while wrapping themselved in the flag.

That is not the same as calling someone a terrorist, as you claim.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 40):
Listen to the conservative commentators on the days the talking points in nationalism. They will droan on and on about anyone standing in the way of their party's ideas are terrorists and are evil.

I have never heard any such thing. You are making this up. Show me a transcript where Rush or someone like that calls Dems/Liberals "Terrorists"

I think you are hearing what you want to hear.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 40):
Reminds me of another quote from all over: If you don't agree with gay marrige, don't marry one!



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 40):
There was some compomising, but I don't recall him admitting failures. I do not recall him personally standing up and saying "I was wrong." I recall "somethings maybe should have been done differently." Not exactly owning up to mistakes, IMO.

Sounds like the only thing that would have satisfied you was ritual suicide.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:20 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
Sounds like the only thing that would have satisfied you was ritual suicide.

And your comment sounds very much like a hyperbole. There is a (colossal) difference between (political) ritual suicide and admitting one's (colossal) mistakes. And I would say that my respect for someone grows proportionally to their ability to admit mistakes, especially when it comes to politicians. And if I do, surely many other voters would, too.

 Smile
 
seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:38 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 40):
Bush: "You are either with us or with the terrorists." Conservative commentators ran with this and parroted this while wrapping themselved in the flag.

That is not the same as calling someone a terrorist, as you claim.

So, on the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent occupation on the grounds of "war on terror" had a theme of "If you don't support the war in Iraq, you are a terrorist" because "you are either for us or you are against us and with the terrorist" which is what the right-wing talking heads twisted it to mean for years and years. It eventualy became endoctrineated into the heads of those listeners who do nothing more than agree with every single letter those right-wing commentators spout.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
Sounds like the only thing that would have satisfied you was ritual suicide.

Absolutly not. What would have satisfied me is to hear Rummy say "I was wrong about the size and scope of the Iraq occupation and I was wrong." What I would have been satisfied with is Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Libby, Pearle, and all the others say (and understand) "I was wrong." That means so much more than physical punishment.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
baroque
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:03 am



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 31):
Being worth 10 or 20 million dollars today is not as much as people would like to think.

Dear UAL747 I would like to road test your kind suggestion as early as possible. I expect an urgent communication telling me the details!  Big grin

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
Which brings me to the next question - how often have you heard Americans refered to as terrorists and communists, as you claim. Sources?

Glad you asked. American terrorists produces 39 million hits, it we take only 10% as being relevant, that is quite a fair bit so lets settle for.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...rich-left-wing-of-the_n_97584.html

Gingrich: Left Wing Of The Democratic Party "Admires" American Terrorists
RSS stumble digg reddit del.ico.us mixx.com Share this on Facebook ShareThis

Huffington Post | April 19, 2008 06:51 PM


http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqterrorists.html

Many many links among which is
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqkill.html#KILL
The Muslims are Coming to Kill Us All
I get letters and phone calls from Americans who, with a straight face tell me it is necessary to kill all the Muslims in the middle east before they kill us all, especially the children.

I point out six things:

1. Even if you believe the Bush version of 9/11 neither Afghanistan nor Iraq had anything to do with it. According to Bush, bin Laden, a Saudi, was the mastermind. Further the suicide hijackers were Saudi, not Afghan, not Iraqi.

"the enemy attacked us, Jim" [explaining why he invaded Iraq.]
~ George W. Bush (born: 1946-07-06 age: 62)
"Jim, the president just said something extraordinarily revealing and, frankly, very important in this debate. In answer to your question about Iraq and sending people into Iraq, he just said the enemy attacked us. Saddam Hussein didn't attack us; Osama bin Laden attacked us. Al Qaeda attacked us."
~ John Kerry (born: 1943-12-11 age: 65) Senator, in rebuttal
"of course I know Osama bin Laden attacked us. I know that. I know that. [That the USA attacked Iraq first]"
~ George W. Bush (born: 1946-07-06 age: 62) , 2004-09-30, admitting his dissembling that Iraq attacked the USA when Kerry challenged him in the first presidential debate.

"As we now know, Iraq had no tie to Osama, no role in 9/11, no nuclear program, no weapons of mass destruction, no plans to attack us. Its people did not threaten us and did not want war with us."
~ Pat Buchanan (born: 1938-11-02 age: 70) 2004-02-11

"We have no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11th attacks."
~ George W. Bush (born: 1946-07-06 age: 62) , 2003-09-17, audio.

2. The USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq unprovoked. This is illegal by the Nuremberg principles and also morally wrong. All the Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged on the same charge aiding and abetting an aggressive war. All American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq are brazenly guilty of this same war crime. Bush tried to hide this embarrassing fact by calling what he did "preemptive war". But there was no evidence at all that either Afghanistan or Iraq was stupid enough to attack the USA or even that they had the means. The invasions were not even preemptive. They were invasions, as bald and greedy as Hitler's invasion of Poland.

"He [Saddam Hussein] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
~ Colin Powell (born: 1937-04-05 age: 71) 2001-02-02


and

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/193420.pdf

What a rich field of research.

You might also like
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqwarpix.html#IRAQWARPIX
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqabughraibpix.html#ABUGHRAIBPIX
and
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqterrorists.html#TERRORISTS
American Terrorists
The word terrorist is so loaded with negative connotations that many Americans have used it very loosely to tar their enemies, e.g.:

* Anyone who criticises the president.
* Anyone who harms an American, civilian or soldier.
* Anyone who disagrees with the Neocon political philosophy.
* Anyone who offered themselves as a human shield to protect brown-skinned people in Palestine, Afghanistan or Iraq.
* Anyone who opposes the war in Afghanistan or Iraq.
* Anyone who publicly announces the government ought to regulate corporate polluters.
* Anyone who joins a demonstration to protest government or corporate actions.
* Anyone who burns a flag.
* Anyone who believes abortion should be the decision of the mother.
* Homosexuals.
* Anyone who teaches evolution instead of creationism.
* Anyone who does not give lip service to a belief in god.

Historian’s Definition
Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh have made such effective use of the terrorist smear tactic, that I doubt people in general will be much interested in using the term terrorist precisely. However, it does have a clear meaning.

“Terrorism : killing civilians with the intent of changing their political affiliation.”
~ Caleb Carr (born: 1955-08-02 age: 53), military historian

“Any action constitutes terrorism if it is intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a Government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.”
~ Kofi Annan (born: 1938-04-08 age: 70) secretary general of the United Nations

Thus terrorism includes:

* bombing civilians.
* shooting civilians.
* killing civilians by flying aircraft into buildings.
* killing civilians with poison gas or other banned weapons such as napalm, white phosphorus, land mines and cluster bombs.

Terrorism does not include:

* bombing soldiers.
* shooting soldiers.
* killing soldiers by flying aircraft into buildings.
* killing soldiers with poison gas or other banned weapons such as napalm, white phosphorus, land mines and cluster bombs.
* expressing unpopular opinions.
* Criticising government leaders.
* protesting.
* Refusing to serve in the military.
* Killing your mother to get an early inheritance.
* Negligent contaminating lettuce with E. Coli bacteria.
 
seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:32 am

I have questions for all the people who think the "poor" people never should have gotten these "upside down mortgages" in the first place: Who told the banks it was okay to hose these people? When people heard about these great rates banks were handing out fast and furious, refinanced, then, found out they had to work 3 jobs to keep their home, where was the outrage then? If these banks had enough money to hand out all that money in bonuses to CEOs, they certainly had enough money to stay solvent and not ask government for a blank check with no oversite.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
cairo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:58 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 45):
I have questions for all the people who think the "poor" people never should have gotten these "upside down mortgages" in the first place: Who told the banks it was okay to hose these people?

I think the 2 obvious implications your post brings up are:

1 > banks and borrowers SHARE the blame for mortgages to people who can't afford them

2 > unrestrained capitalism sooner or later results in so much greed that diaster strikes = some regulation is necessary to correct the excess

Cairo
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:32 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 44):
Terrorism does not include:
.
...* Killing your mother to get an early inheritance.

Are you serious? Or does this mean that the act is listed as a non-terrorist act because it is, instead, murder...or what? Whatever the case, a strange choice of items to be included in a list of what terrorism is not.
 
baroque
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:00 pm



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 47):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 44):
Terrorism does not include:
.
...* Killing your mother to get an early inheritance.

Are you serious? Or does this mean that the act is listed as a non-terrorist act because it is, instead, murder...or what? Whatever the case, a strange choice of items to be included in a list of what terrorism is not.

Not my list so like you I need to interpret, but yes I suppose it is murder but not terrorism. Presumably it would be terrorism if you informed her you would burn down the town if she did not give you the money now.

The one that really attracts me is lettuce and food poisoning. That is far more arguable as you could introduce something more lethal and I suppose then it could be terrorism. But the point being made with that one is that the act was accidental, as far as poor hygiene is accidental (could get into a spat with the Doc on that!).

The killing your mother bit illustrates how silly was the official Aus reaction to the Bali bombing in terms of the charges for the guys they caught. When the bombing took place, Indonesia did not have a law against terrorism but it had perfectly good laws against murder. Aus insisted that Indonesia pass a terrorism law (OK) but then insisted that Amrosi and co were charge with terrorism. Retrospective prosecutions are illegal under the Indonesian constitution. To cut a long story short, their appeals should have succeeded, but they did not and they were shot. How are we now to ask Indonesians to follow their own laws strictly when we have a record of specifically asking them not to?

Of course you can argue that the Indonesians may have taken no notice of the Aus government.

But your question illustrates an important point. Why get so knotted about terrorism? If it is murder that is about as bad as it can get. Same with genocide. To demonstrate genocide you need to infer additional aims, murder is easier to prove! So why risk losing the argument about genocide when you know you will win one on murder?
 
seb146
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RE: Bill Clinton Says "Don't Blame Me..."

Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:33 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 48):
The one that really attracts me is lettuce and food poisoning.

In the early 1980s, there was a cult that moved to central Oregon. The Rajneeshes. They bought a compound, a few DC-3s for charters to their "resort" and, of course, Rolls Royces for their hearlded leader, the Bagwan Shree Rajneesh. This cult took over the nearest town, Antelope, and renamed it Rashneeshpuram. They, then, set out to overtake Wasco County. Elections would soon be held, so, some of the members went to The Dalles, population center of Wasco County, and spread salmonella around to the salad bars in town. Not many of them (the whole salad bar fad never really caught on there) and not enough to keep people home on election day. Even with them bussing in homeless from as far away as St Louis and Chicago, they did not gain enough votes to put themselves on the county board of commissioners.

However, in this day and age, food poisoning in lettuce and spinach does come more from hygene than from outright terrorist acts.
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