Derico
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Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:00 am

Sorry, but this is way over the line of freedom of expression:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090220/..._am_ca/lt_argentina_vatican_jews_5

The man should be exposed, and criticized for his views, and the Catholic Church has the right to take all actions it deems necessary against this individual, and Jewish organizations have the right to counter the bishop's obviously uneducated views... but expelling him from the country? That is completely unnaceptable.

That is a violation of freedom of speech. I am saddened the government took this decision solely to please the Catholic Church and Jewish authorities.

This story went over the line when it forced this individual to leave a country that permits all freedom of expression, even saying the president is a fill in the blank, and even blocking public highways in protest.

I'm betting the guy would have just left anyways because of public and peer pressure at his seminar. But the government ordering it?? Bad call.
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JOSEMEX
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:10 am



Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
I am saddened the government took this decision solely to please the Catholic Church and Jewish authorities.

I don't know how you reach the conclusion that the catholic church wanted him expelled from Argentina.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:11 am

In my opinion, they should have deported the guy to Germany, where he's being prosecuted for denying the holocaust.
 
Derico
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:13 am

Quoting JoseMEX (Reply 1):
I don't know how you reach the conclusion that the catholic church wanted him expelled from Argentina.

I have only recently followed the story, but it's obvious that the local Catholic authorities wanted him out of their hairs. That's fine if they do it, and if the Jewish organizations demand in public this be done, but the government should have never gotten involved.

[Edited 2009-02-22 16:27:51]
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Derico
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:17 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
In my opinion, they should have deported the guy to Germany, where he's being prosecuted for denying the holocaust

With all due respect, Germany obviously has special laws regarding this particular type of viewpoint. Argentina does not recognize (as far as I know), nor should it be expected to adhere to this particular German law. It would be like Argentina being expected to follow Saudi law regarding non-muslim religions... each country has their own particular circumstances.

Argentina's circumstance is that, expect for a brief and sad period in the 1970s, people of all religions and views have been welcomed, as long as they don't violate primordial rights of their fellow citizen.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:54 am



Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
In my opinion, they should have deported the guy to Germany, where he's being prosecuted for denying the holocaust

With all due respect, Germany obviously has special laws regarding this particular type of viewpoint. Argentina does not recognize (as far as I know), nor should it be expected to adhere to this particular German law. It would be like Argentina being expected to follow Saudi law regarding non-muslim religions... each country has their own particular circumstances.

Bishop Willmanson can go to Iran, where his (stupid) views are accepted, at least by the Iranian Government. Of course, he would not be accepted as a Catholic.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:31 am

He's not an Argentinian citizen, though. And I think he was there illegally.
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ltbewr
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:37 am

The article cited in the first post notes Bishop Williamsom taught in a seminary in the USA several years ago. I am quite sure he could and would be denied entry into the USA today for his unacceptable views on the Holocaust as a 'undesirable'. In the past such denials was used to keep out those with criminal records, 'Communists', or more recently, those on a 'no fly list' for their support of illegal and terror organziaitons (IRA, PLO, Hamas, al-Queda, neo-Nazi).
Although the government of Argentina is using a technical violation of his work visa to expel him, it is legal and I am quite sure some there consider it fair game. As he is a British National and assuming he has a UK passport, the UK is his defacto home country and with the difficult relations between Argentina and the UK, he may have to go via a third coutry to get home. Maybe like the kiddy fiddlers the Vatican took in to protect the church, maybe this fool could be sent there too.
 
Derico
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:17 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
I am quite sure he could and would be denied entry into the USA today for his unacceptable views on the Holocaust as a 'undesirable

If there is such an international policy I was not aware of it. The United States can do as they wish in regards to entries and visas, I don't think it should be a government's policy to determine or pre-screen people's opinions as distasteful as they might be.

Very slippery slope... Should a Jew be denied entry to ARG because he does not advocate a two-state solution and dismantling of settlements? Should a Japanese be denied entry because they honor Japanese war criminals in China through a shrine?? And on and on and on we could go.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Bishop Willmanson can go to Iran, where his (stupid) views are accepted, at least by the Iranian Government. Of course, he would not be accepted as a Catholic.

Which I thought was the difference between democracies and theocracies...
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Marco
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:22 am

I guess freedom of speech is only extended to those who criticize/mock Christianity and Islam.
Wait hold on, even a Dutch MP was not given permission to enter the UK because of his anti-Islamic views...

Whatever happened to freedom of speech? This is totally unacceptable. What about other genocides that are still denied to this day? Example: Seyfo Genocide where the Turks and Kurds massacred 1.5m Armenians, 750,000 Assyrians and 300,000 Pontiac Greeks?

Putting any sort of limit on freedom of speech is very dangerous and opens doors to censorship!

Absolutely ridiculous!
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baroque
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:48 am



Quoting Derico (Reply 8):
Very slippery slope... Should a Jew be denied entry to ARG because he does not advocate a two-state solution and dismantling of settlements? Should a Japanese be denied entry because they honor Japanese war criminals in China through a shrine?? And on and on and on we could go.

You missed out on denying evolution and global warming.  wink 
 
us330
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:45 pm



Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
With all due respect, Germany obviously has special laws regarding this particular type of viewpoint. Argentina does not recognize (as far as I know), nor should it be expected to adhere to this particular German law

Depends on the circumstances. If Germany and Argentina have a mutual extradition treaty, then I could see him being expelled for those purposes.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 7):
am quite sure he could and would be denied entry into the USA today for his unacceptable views on the Holocaust as a 'undesirable'.

Disagree. He was never a member of any Nazi related organizations.

While I despise the guy's viewpoint, and think that the Pope should excommunicate the bishop (which he is well within his rights to do), I agree with all those saying that it is a slippery slope, and violates the principles of free speech. The great thing about free speech is that it allows those who profess idiotic viewpoints like these to be exposed to the public, and subject to public criticism and censure.
 
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yowza
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:12 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 11):
Disagree. He was never a member of any Nazi related organizations.

So the current Pope should be denied entry too right? If I recall he was in the Hitler youth albeit involuntarily.

YOWza
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:32 pm

Freedom of Speech can be a big problem. It all depends what can be considered tolerable or not and to what extent, at least for people speaking and acting in public.

What about organizations/groups such as the KuKluxKlan and I am sure there are even worse groups than them. Then there are the cults and pseudo-religious organization like the Church of Scientology, the Moonies and the like.

How/why are these people freely allowed to march on the streets and distribute their propaganda?

Or is it that everything should be allowed?
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:58 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
He's not an Argentinian citizen, though. And I think he was there illegally.

And that's the reason it was expelled for - not for denying holocaust which I, still, find disgusting. Sorry, you might have freedom of speech, but what about those who perished in the holocaust or their families?

That's an insult - and that's a misuse of your freedom, at least to me.

Saludos,
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Derico
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:03 pm



Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 14):
And that's the reason it was expelled for - not for denying holocaust which I, still, find disgusting. Sorry, you might have freedom of speech, but what about those who perished in the holocaust or their families?

That's an insult - and that's a misuse of your freedom, at least to me.

It is an insult, but freedom of speech does protect that right. Look at our history books and how they glorify the founders of the Argentine nation, most of whom advocated ''european'' immigration and settlement.

That ''progress'' was at the expense of many tens of thousands of indigenous peoples, who's bleeding ear where worth a gold peso coin... That was a holocaust as well, of course smaller in overall numbers, but nontheless the point is should a country like Bolivia (just to use an example), expell Argentine citizens because they somehow are deemed to approve of the immigration of their past relatives?? (which was at the detriment of the native americans).

As for the official reason for the expulsion, that's exactly why it's a given his departure has to do with what he said and not him being illegal. Could the Argentine government really be starting to enforce actual IMMIGRATION law and sending illegal immigrants back home?  Silly

If so get ready, La Matanza, La Boca, Ugarteche (Mendoza), South Cordoba, etc will be ghost towns!! How many places will be deserted considering the illegal immigrants from all around Latin America that will be gone, a number that's in the millions? How about Belgrano and other areas? No more Chinatowns... Even Palermo Soho will be deserted, as would be 5th Section in Mendoza. Everyone knows there are thousands of European, North Am, and other ''wealthy'' ex-pats who have overstayed and are illegal.

At least this Bishop will have the honor to be the first of a massive deportation on an illegal immigration status, since the government has decided to enforce the law...  Yeah sure
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:18 pm

It still doesn't matter. What Argentina did by deporting Richard Williamson was right, with or without holocaust denial. Maybe the holocaust denial has just been a factor that expedited the deportation process in this case.

Denying the holocaust in public does not fall under freedom of speech to me (and others). It falls into the category of what we call "Volksverhetzung" (incitement of hate towards ethnic and religious minorities).

Besides: Isn't Argentina still dealing with a bombing from about 17 years ago, when a Jewish building was blown up in Buenos Aires in an act of anti-semitism?
 
us330
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:20 pm



Quoting YOWza (Reply 12):
So the current Pope should be denied entry too right? If I recall he was in the Hitler youth albeit involuntarily.

If you look at US immigration forms, they ask a question--(i'm paraphrasing)--whether or not you were a member of the Nazi party from 1939-1945---you may be denied entry to the U.S., emphasis on the "may be" because obviously there is a huge difference between someone who volunteered to be an executioner and someone, like the pope, who was not responsible for perpetrating any of the Nazis crimes.
 
Derico
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:30 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 16):
It falls into the category of what we call "Volksverhetzung" (incitement of hate towards ethnic and religious minorities).

LTU,

Would someone of European/Asian/African (even as most Africans were forced) descent in the New World, who somehow expresses gratitude their ancestors came to the Americas, be considered to be inciting hate towards ethnic and religious minorities?

If so, should they publicly decry their grandparents, and disown them? Or what should be done in that case?
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LTU932
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:53 pm



Quoting Derico (Reply 18):
Would someone of European/Asian/African (even as most Africans were forced) descent in the New World, who somehow expresses gratitude their ancestors came to the Americas, be considered to be inciting hate towards ethnic and religious minorities?

Read what I wrote. I was specifically referring to the actions by Richard Williamson, not immigration as a whole.

What Richard Williamson did by denying the holocaust is Volksverhetzung, because with his words, he is inciting hate with his uneducated "opinion" on something that has been documented as one of the most brutal genocides in history. You don't have an idea on how the Neonazi scene in Germany has actually hailed Williamson for this.

Hell, if he was born at the "right" moment in time, I bet that Williamson would have joined the NSDAP and would have personally commited crimes asociated with the holocaust.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:50 am

Richard Williamson has fled to the UK.

I wonder if they let him in at Heathrow and if the UK will also expell him.
Then he can go to France.  

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5799457.ece

Bishop Williamson, of the ultraconservative Society of St Pius X, scuffled with a reporter at Buenos Aires airport, raising his fist and apparently shoving him as he hurried to catch his British Airways flight for London.

The bishop will be met at Heathrow by the socialite Michele Renouf with a legal team. Ms Renouf, a former beauty queen, denies that she is anti-Semitic but has described Judaism as a “repugnant and hate-filled religion”.


http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gled...d-david-irving-party-together.html

 Wow!

[Edited 2009-02-25 00:53:14]

Looks like he has arrived at Heathrow airport and they have let him in.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7909407.stm

After his arrival he was taken straight to a waiting car by police officers.

'Deeply shocked'

Those meeting the bishop, including other Roman Catholic priests, declined to answer any questions from the press before the vehicle sped away.

[Edited 2009-02-25 01:05:16]
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DocLightning
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:31 pm

His best option is to return to the country of which he is a citizen.

He didn't get kicked out for denying the Holocaust. He got kicked out for being in Argentina illegally and THEN spouting his mouth off about the Holocaust.

Argentina guarantees freedom of speech, but not to people who aren't legally supposed to be in the country.
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707CMF
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:38 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
His best option is to return to the country of which he is a citizen.

He didn't get kicked out for denying the Holocaust. He got kicked out for being in Argentina illegally and THEN spouting his mouth off about the Holocaust.

Argentina guarantees freedom of speech, but not to people who aren't legally supposed to be in the country.

Since he is a UK citizen, I can only hope the UK will not expell him !

Cheers,

707
 
Derico
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RE: Over The Line: Argentina Expells Holocaust Denier

Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:04 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
He got kicked out for being in Argentina illegally

But that's the joke. I know many people here have no clue about Argentina, but do you know how many people that live in this country are illegal at this very moment? And how *some* (a fraction of illegal immigrants who just want to work) have commited violent crime and have not been deported? (including ex-members of Peru's sendero Luminoso, Colombia's FARC, Mexican drug lords, etc).

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 19):
What Richard Williamson did by denying the holocaust is Volksverhetzung, because with his words, he is inciting hate with his uneducated "opinion" on something that has been documented as one of the most brutal genocides in history. You don't have an idea on how the Neonazi scene in Germany has actually hailed Williamson for this.

I'm sure neonazis everywhere grasp at every straw they can get. I won't argue anylonger for this guy's ''basic rights'', since there are far worse things that could happen in this world than to have a guy that obviously is totally incensitive at best and a racist at worst be inconvenienced by having the law enforced, I still think that as a matter of looking at this in an objective manner, Buenos Aires decided to enforce the law it never has enforced otherwise on this one case.

[Edited 2009-02-25 22:13:01]
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