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stasisLAX
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Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:38 am

First off, Captain Sully Sullenberger, hero of the US Airways flight that landed on the Hudson River last month, was just introduced and given a huge round of applause. He's been to the President's inauguration, Vanity Fair's Oscar party and now this. He's having quite a month.

Here's the full text of the President's speech: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...ngton/2009/02/obama-text-spee.html

Let the pollitical and economic debates begin!

[Edited 2009-02-24 18:39:49]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:45 am

"...and I believe the nation that invented the automobile can not walk away from it!"

We won't! Big grin
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:46 am

"That is why I’m bringing together businesses and workers, doctors and health care providers, Democrats and Republicans to begin work on this issue next week. I suffer no illusions that this will be an easy process. It will be hard. But I also know that nearly a century after Teddy Roosevelt first called for reform, the cost of our health care has weighed down our economy and the conscience of our nation long enough.

So let there be no doubt: health care reform cannot wait, it must not wait, and it will not wait another year."

You rock, Mr. President  bigthumbsup 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
pilotntrng
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:50 am

Is there an A.Net smily face for a shovel and rubber boots? It's getting thicker each second he speaks.
Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:17 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
We won't!

The President needs a history lesson, I agree.

The automobile was NOT invented here in the U.S. It was invented in Germany by Karl Benz. The President should have said something along the lines of “The nation that perfected the mass production of the automobile making cars available to average citizens” since Henry Ford would definitely gets credit for that achievement....
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
RCoulter
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:19 am

The only thing I didn't like was the "...and reform our defense budget so that we're not paying for Cold War-era weapons systems we don't use." in the defense part of the speech. To me that would mean the Raptor...

[Edited 2009-02-24 19:39:28]
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:19 am

From my outside view a very good speech, setting exactly the right priorities as far as I can tell. Not that it'll be a walk in the park or without contention.
 
dragon-wings
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:19 am

I always get a kick out of watching these speaches and seeing how many times they stand and applause the president. (and seeing how some of the room stands and some don't)
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:22 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 4):
The automobile was NOT invented here in the U.S. It was invented in Germany by Karl Benz. The President should have said something along the lines of “The nation that perfected the mass production of the automobile making cars available to average citizens” since Henry Ford would definitely gets credit for that achievement....

Indeed. It's really just splitting hairs, but it was a funny moment nevertheless. Obama can sleep well in that regard at least.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:40 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
He's been to the President's inauguration, Vanity Fair's Oscar party and now this. He's having quite a month.

Don't forget the Superbowl!

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AGM100
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:45 am

Brilliant , but wrong . He is good though , wow the guy is just on fire and pushing a mighty agenda in his first term... over reaching big time. Sad.

Great delivery , great inspirational speaker .
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Ken777
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:58 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
We won't! 

Maybe he could have said "affordable car" no way can my wallet handle a MB.

Overall a good speech - at least the parts I paid attention to. Obama has been very good in communicating since the primaries and is only getting better. It also helps that he's a very bright guy and is bringing in some bright people to help him.

Obama's Q&A session with the governors, economists, etc yesterday showed he is informed and thoughtful on his feet - tonight was just an addition to the reputation.

I actually believe that if there is not too much resistance from the opposition Obama and this country might actually improve a lot over the next 12 - 24 months.
 
Charles79
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:03 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
"...and I believe the nation that invented the automobile can not walk away from it!"

We won't!

Brilliant, Klaus, Brilliant!!!

Quoting RCoulter (Reply 6):
The only thing I didn't like was the "...and reform our defense budget so that we're not paying for Cold War-era weapons systems we don't use." in the defense part of the speech. To me that would mean the Raptor...

But he's right though...the Raptor, though capable as it may be, it's an overkill when you look at the kind of battles we've had and foresee in the future. I spent 4 years in the Air Force developing new weapons systems and even though my exposure was limited to about a half dozen programs ALL of them were filled with excessive requirements sterming from the Cold War era. You end up worse off because not only you spend 3, 4, even 5 times as much as you should but you also face long delays due to the complexity of the new systems. Believe me, you can cut spending in new defense programs by a third and still have a very well equipped military.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):
Brilliant , but wrong .

I wouldn't dismiss all of it as wrong though...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):
wow the guy is just on fire and pushing a mighty agenda in his first term... over reaching big time. Sad.

That I agree with. Unfortunately he feels like he has to deliver what he feels the previous administration didn't. Let's face it, we spent very little in domestic infrastructure, health care, and research the past 8 years so the nation is in dire need of a facelift. Unfortunately someone forgot to tell Obama that not everything has to be done at the same time within his first 2 months.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
From my outside view a very good speech, setting exactly the right priorities as far as I can tell. Not that it'll be a walk in the park or without contention.

The greatness of the speech aside, it will indeed be a very steep mountain to climb for him and his administration. AGM has it right, too overreaching in his first term, though most of it badly needed. Prioritization will be the driving force for his first term.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:08 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 10):

The way I look at it is that he is just trying to "show his cards" from the beginning. I don't think (at least I hope) that he will try to tackle all these issues early in this term, but just to state his ambitions.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:18 am

I liked the part about "no one under 250K will pay a dime more in taxes. I guess all you A Netters out there over 250K watchout! Rightfully so by the way. I also loved the line about removing tax breaks and incentives for corporations to ship jobs overseas. All in all, a great speech for the worker and average American. Hope for fairness finally, seriously lacking for eight agonizing years. You could almost see the republicans trying not to grimace on camera. Laughable.  bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 
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Ken777
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:08 am



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 12):
Unfortunately someone forgot to tell Obama that not everything has to be done at the same time within his first 2 months.

I think that Obama was well aware of the need to put everything on the table tonight that he he wants to achieve. In less than 12 months all members of the House and a third of the Senate will be gearing up for re-election. For them getting re-elected will be more important than taking care of our problems.

There are a lot of jobs to get done, but we're paying 435 members of the house good salaries (and $1 Million+ for staff) to get that job done.

Same in the Senate. 100 people plus large salaries. No excuse for either the House or Senate to not get on with the job.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:41 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
and I believe the nation that invented the automobile can not walk away from it!"

Great then get Germany to send GM money. As far as I care that company can die.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 2):
So let there be no doubt: health care reform cannot wait, it must not wait, and it will not wait another year."

Neither can I to wait to hear who is going to pay for it. Oh wait that's right the rich people when he raises their taxes. This ought to be good.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 4):
The President needs a history lesson, I agree.

No just the speech writer.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
I also loved the line about removing tax breaks and incentives for corporations to ship jobs overseas.

You forget is was the high taxes that caused them to ship them overseas?


All in all more fluff and not much else. The part where he tried to say we invented the auto and said we won't turn our backs on them must have made the UAW feel great. I guess since we invented flight we will start bailing out the airlines next? Still going to be great in 3 months to see what Obama does when GM comes back to congress saying they need emergency money or the whole country will collapse if GM does. Give me a break and declare already.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:05 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
We won't!

Yeah, I grimaced when I heard that, too easy to get right.

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 7):
I always get a kick out of watching these speaches and seeing how many times they stand and applause the president. (and seeing how some of the room stands and some don't)

The interesting thing was to hear how many times everyone in the room applauded or stood and did so. An good orator with an inspirational speach will do that.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Neither can I to wait to hear who is going to pay for it. Oh wait that's right the rich people when he raises their taxes. This ought to be good.

Actually everyone will, not just the wealthy. And if we let taxes return to what Reagan and Bush 1 set in motion, the country's funding will likely balance back out again like it did back then.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
You forget is was the high taxes that caused them to ship them overseas?

No it doesn't, at least not exclusively. Most companies have no problem having expenses meet income and pay little taxes. In fact for as high as our corporate rate is, most companies pay similar or less taxes as those in other countries. I do think the USA should lower the corporate tax rate and also close loopholes, keep it simple.

As to health care, we can save a lot of money if we reduce the number of systems we have and just open all to use by everyone, and this can be done with private companies and non profits. In the USA we have Medicare, VA, military, private, public clinics and state based systems, add to that the various control and payment systems and you see the inefficiencies immediately. It's crazy to have so much duplication and overlap and not have a superior heath system to other countries.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:22 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
You forget is was the high taxes that caused them to ship them overseas?

With due respect, you're wrong.

In 2002, I did part of the business case analysis for a major U.S. insurer that was moving several contact centers from the U.S. to Bangalore, India. The reason that the company wanted to move their call-center and claims operations to India? Cheap labor and massive incentives from the Indian state of Karnataka's government.

Did the executives care that they were going to put 800 Americans in Philadelphia and Minneapolis out of work, many who had been effective employees of the company for 15 to 20 years? Did they care about the communities that they were negatively impacting by terminating so many loyal employees? Not one damn bit!

"We're increasing shareholder value", the executives said. They were liars - they were increasing the value of their own stock option plans because none of them stayed with the company more than a few years - revolving door senior management. Don't happily drink the Kool-Aid on this topic. This offshoring of American jobs is 95 percent about executive greed.

[Edited 2009-02-24 23:24:38]

[Edited 2009-02-24 23:26:48]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
NIKV69
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:38 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
Actually everyone will, not just the wealthy. And if we let taxes return to what Reagan and Bush 1 set in motion, the country's funding will likely balance back out again like it did back then.

For that to happen our taxes have to go up a lot. Obama has already said he isn't raising our taxes only the top 2% of wage earners. So the question remains where is the money coming from and the answer would be our taxes going up at least 8%. When what he should do instead of letting the Bush cuts expire is ease the tax burden on businesses and give them credits when they give their employees health care. A nationilized system is doomed to fail.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
johnboy
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:55 am

I'm still pinching myself that we have a vibrant, intellectually-curious, well-spoken, center-left President instead of one who, on his best day, was someone with whom you might want to play quarter bounce.
 
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:59 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
So the question remains where is the money coming from

This is the same question I have been asking myself.

How is U.S. President Obama going to make miracles in the current global economic situation? Is he going to find more billions and trillions out of nowhere for more bailouts?

Who is going to pay for all this in the end?
Are he and his team going to bankrupt the place?

It all seems very mysterious to me. He gives a speech to Congress and the markets go up. The idea would be to reform the whole financial system but they are not going to do it.

George Soros, the man who funded Obama's presidential campaign, seems to think different.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=a60APVwmz01g&refer=home

Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor George Soros said the current economic upheaval has its roots in the financial deregulation of the 1980s and signals the end of a free-market model that has since dominated capitalist countries.

 Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
ltbewr
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:48 am

To me Pres. Obama achieved the goals of his speech last night: to set the agenda for his administration, especially for the next year and beyond. Yes, some of what he promoted may not make it, but at least he seems to understand that the American and worldwide public wants major changes and needs to act together to achieve major policy changes.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:39 pm

I actually enjoyed the speech, because when President Obama speaks from prepared text he has the commanding voice of a good minister. It's certainly WAY better than former President Clinton, who had a bad habit of droning on and on and you wonder half the audience is looking at their watches waiting for the speech to end or are nodding off.  zzz 
 
baroque
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:50 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
From my outside view a very good speech, setting exactly the right priorities as far as I can tell. Not that it'll be a walk in the park or without contention.

Pretty well received here too from the general comment. But there was one comment that caused a bit of a reaction:

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 12):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
"...and I believe the nation that invented the automobile can not walk away from it!"

We won't!

Brilliant, Klaus, Brilliant!!!

Indeed, brilliant comeback. Obama will have to be a bit more careful to now that we have found that the Chinese invented most things that are important apart from zero, as he will need to negotiate a bit harder with the Chinese than the Germans and their sense of humour may not be as finely developed as the German sense of humour.  angel   angel  (Anyone thinking that is intended to be sarcastic needs to read replies 53and 54 in Hottest Hoax Ever http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2047900/ )
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:57 pm

Quoting RCoulter (Reply 6):
The only thing I didn't like was the "...Cold war era projects that we don't use" in the defense part of the speech. To me that screams Raptor, otherwise he did a good job

The tanker renewal will probably be on the line as well, at least the size of the project.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Great then get Germany to send GM money.

"We" have been doing that for many years already — Opel is has been sending substantial funds to Detroit for years. We'll have to see how this turns out, but separating Opel from GM might possibly be a viable strategy for both.

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 20):
I'm still pinching myself that we have a vibrant, intellectually-curious, well-spoken, center-left President instead of one who, on his best day, was someone with whom you might want to play quarter bounce.

Yeah, it's fantastic that the cringe is gone at last...!   

[Edited 2009-02-25 06:05:07]
 
Charles79
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:37 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
You forget is was the high taxes that caused them to ship them overseas?

In all of my MBA classes the primary reason cited for jobs going overseas was the cheap labor found abroad. We could have 0% taxes and the companies would still find a reason to send jobs overseas.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 18):
This offshoring of American jobs is 95 percent about executive greed.

Absolutely!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
So the question remains where is the money coming from

That's where I don't see the President eye to eye. Yes, we need health care reform. Yes, we need better education. Yes, we need to make repairs to our infrastructure. Yes, we need to invest in renewable energy forms. BUT in order to do that we need to either raise taxes or cut spending elsewhere. Otherwise we'll end up with a generational debt and deficit situation that will hunt us for decades. I have to say though that we are simply paying for the neglect in these areas that goes back decades (and both parties are responsible by the way).

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 20):
I'm still pinching myself that we have a vibrant, intellectually-curious, well-spoken, center-left President instead of one who, on his best day, was someone with whom you might want to play quarter bounce.

It is indeed refreshing to see that the US electorate can vote for the better candidate once in a while but lets not get carried away just yet. We must remember that he's a politician first and foremost and, just like Bush I and II, Clinton, Reagan, Kennedy, and many before him, his agenda will be met with resistance from those he owes favors to. I'm happy he's President but I acknowledge that he's authority will be restricted by Congress and special interest groups as it always happens.
 
mt99
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:45 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
You forget is was the high taxes that caused them to ship them overseas?



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):

In all of my MBA classes the primary reason cited for jobs going overseas was the cheap labor found abroad. We could have 0% taxes and the companies would still find a reason to send jobs overseas.

$3/day labor is far more profitable than 0% taxes. Plus, make your company headquarters a PO Box in the Bahamas, and watch the money roll in
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AGM100
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:53 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
Rightfully so by the way. I

You will soon find out why you are so wrong and mis guided. 2 years from now ... 250K will be the equivalent of about 30k in buying power. Then all those earning less than 250 will be somewhere between food stamps and unemployment checks. But you will be able to get your health clinic visit ....

Don't you understand that the more money we give them .. they just spend and suck out of the economy ? Don't you hope that you are making 250k someday ? Kiss it good by ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Ken777
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:28 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
And if we let taxes return to what Reagan and Bush 1 set in motion, the country's funding will likely balance back out again like it did back then.

Wouldn't going back to Reagan's tax levels would mean an increase for those making less than $250K as well as those making above?

Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
In fact for as high as our corporate rate is, most companies pay similar or less taxes as those in other countries. I do think the USA should lower the corporate tax rate and also close loopholes, keep it simple.

Reducing the tax rate would need to be funded by removing all the various special corporate breaks and credits. Every industry has their own special deals and they want them retained.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
As to health care, we can save a lot of money if we reduce the number of systems we have and just open all to use by everyone, and this can be done with private companies and non profits.

After the battles I've fought with our insurance company when my wife was treated for acute leukemia (with $100K+ still unresolved) I would take care putting your trust in them - especially if you're under 50.

As to "non profits" - when I was diagnosed with cancer of the parotid gland I went down to a very famous cancer hospital in Houston for a second opinion - with slides and PET/CT images sent directly by the providers here. The morning before the appointment I got a call from the hospital informing me that they didn't work with my $12+K a year insurance and I needed to bring $14,300.00 with me to my first appointment.

$14,300.00 - not a typo - as they wouldn't give a second opinion without repeating all of the tests that I had. Wouldn't accept the slides from the biopsy or the PET/CT scan.

To be blunt, we now get better care from Medicare (with private supplemental) and VA.
 
baroque
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:40 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
To be blunt, we now get better care from

Shakes a sympathetic head with disbelief that Americans seem to think this is an acceptable system. Hope things are OK Ken for both you and your wife. I hope Obama does you all proud.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:45 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
And if we let taxes return to what Reagan and Bush 1 set in motion, the country's funding will likely balance back out again like it did back then.

Wouldn't going back to Reagan's tax levels would mean an increase for those making less than $250K as well as those making above?

Oh yes, it would mean that. But I keep looking back and noting that we were actually paying for what we were getting and the money never got completely out of control as it has over the last eight to ten years. I don't advocate an immediate reversal, more of a reversing back through the changes that occurred to get us to this near-bankrupt point.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
In fact for as high as our corporate rate is, most companies pay similar or less taxes as those in other countries. I do think the USA should lower the corporate tax rate and also close loopholes, keep it simple.

Reducing the tax rate would need to be funded by removing all the various special corporate breaks and credits. Every industry has their own special deals and they want them retained.

I understand and I agree, many sacred cows would be gored, but simpler and lowered would be better overall. I like the idea of a 15% to 25% tax but without a real examination I can't say this would work, I am just talking off the top of my head. Not saying it can happen, sadly, as all the special interest groups that are affected by these breaks would spend untold millions to defend them.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
As to health care, we can save a lot of money if we reduce the number of systems we have and just open all to use by everyone, and this can be done with private companies and non profits.

After the battles I've fought with our insurance company when my wife was treated for acute leukemia (with $100K+ still unresolved) I would take care putting your trust in them - especially if you're under 50.

As to "non profits" - when I was diagnosed with cancer of the parotid gland I went down to a very famous cancer hospital in Houston for a second opinion - with slides and PET/CT images sent directly by the providers here. The morning before the appointment I got a call from the hospital informing me that they didn't work with my $12+K a year insurance and I needed to bring $14,300.00 with me to my first appointment.

$14,300.00 - not a typo - as they wouldn't give a second opinion without repeating all of the tests that I had. Wouldn't accept the slides from the biopsy or the PET/CT scan.

To be blunt, we now get better care from Medicare (with private supplemental) and VA.

Again I agree completely, it is insane what can happen to someone "with insurance". I would say that we should let all the systems that I mentioned compete with each other for your business. While the government systems appear to have an advantage, this wouldn't really be so as private enterprise is always better than and more efficient that government systems. This would be in conjunction with a requirement that all insurers must accept all applicants, can't charge more than two (maybe three) times more for the identical insurance coverage between to worst and best risk patients, that there are limits to the "unlimited" coverage that now exists for Medicare plans (a listing of all services, diseases and disabilities would be developed ala Oregon's "list" and be the minimum level that policies could offer) and that all people must be insured, either under a plan they chose or a tax (or deduction not available) is applied to cover the cost (the military, VA, and Medicare are paid by government to the person who then chooses which system to go with). This keeps competition as it gives people the freedom to move from one plan to anther, broadens the financing pool as is needed, and allows insurance to still thrive as people opt for higher levels of coverage (as you mentioned private supplemental).

Again this is all just off the top of my head and I would need to work on it to make it really achievable but its a good start. It mixes competition with private and public systems and understands that people must be responsible for and pay for the care.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
NIKV69
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:51 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 25):
We" have been doing that for many years already — Opel is has been sending substantial funds to Detroit for years. We'll have to see how this turns out, but separating Opel from GM might possibly be a viable strategy for both.

True but GM is too far gone at this point. They need a major overhaul and cuts and job losses to even hope to recover in 2-4 years but thanks to the liberal media propaganda we have to believe that they are sacred and we have to waste money paying the employees and ex employees benefits while they figure out what to do. It's insane.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):
In all of my MBA classes the primary reason cited for jobs going overseas was the cheap labor found abroad. We could have 0% taxes and the companies would still find a reason to send jobs overseas.

Cheap labor is just part of equation. I bet if the tax burden decreased you would see more stay here and offer their help more.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):
Yes, we need to invest in renewable energy forms. BUT in order to do that we need to either raise taxes or cut spending elsewhere

Yea really if we didn't have to give Las Vegas money for a organized crime musuem wouldn't that be a good start.  sarcastic 

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 26):
Otherwise we'll end up with a generational debt and deficit situation that will hunt us for decades

That fate was sealed the moment Obama signed that bill.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 27):
$3/day labor is far more profitable than 0% taxes. Plus, make your company headquarters a PO Box in the Bahamas, and watch the money roll in

Well thanks to the fact the Democrats feel the need to punish big business and the unions feel the need to demand more and more why stay here?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:54 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
Shakes a sympathetic head with disbelief that Americans seem to think this is an acceptable system. Hope things are OK Ken for both you and your wife. I hope Obama does you all proud.

I am sympathetic as well... but our system requires that you do some homework and review your policies in advance of getting sick. Then guess what ... you go get one that fits your needs better. What people want is just to walk from the green square to the blue square then to the yellow square and BAM a miracle ! I am all better.

What are we going to do when Ken and his wife have the same horror story about government health care .?? Who is going to help them then .... no one. At least now you can take control and plan ... you can .. but it requires you doing some work and sacrificing ahead of time.

None of this matters anyway ... We can not afford universal health care OK ? SS and Medicare are already bankrupt now you are going to trust the same people to run your health care ?? Wake up .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:07 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
True but GM is too far gone at this point. They need a major overhaul and cuts and job losses to even hope to recover in 2-4 years but thanks to the liberal media propaganda we have to believe that they are sacred and we have to waste money paying the employees and ex employees benefits while they figure out what to do. It's insane.

I think they are not actually doing that badly in that regard. In the end there will have to be some reconstruction of a functioning healthcare infrastructure on the national level. The Detroit auto makers had basically introduced something like that on their own which made it more difficult to compete with others who simply dumped the costs on their workers or on the general public.

Even if the corporate programs may have been somewhat on the lavish side when compared with most other places, a part of the resolution will probably have to be that a renewed public social system will have to take up some of the strain, but this time not just for a few manufacturers but for everyone.

GM probably has a bunch of other problems to overcome as well, but at least a reasonable level of health care should not be dependent on whether a specific company lives or dies anyway.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
I bet if the tax burden decreased you would see more stay here and offer their help more.

It's not as simple as that. Germany is widely maligned for its relatively high labour costs, but it is one of the most attractive investment targets at the same time since that cost is invested in first-class infrastructure and a relatively well-educated and productive workforce.

The thing is that it's actually not just the level of cost, but also what's being done with the money that decides about the total performance of an economy.

That is basically what Obama was aiming at: The US economy needs better infratructure, better educated and motivated workers and a stable environment. And I think he's on the right track with that.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:18 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
Well thanks to the fact the Democrats feel the need to punish big business and the unions feel the need to demand more and more why stay here?

Its called being competitive... i can pay $3/hour to get 100 B quality widgets, or i can pay $50/hour to get 100 A+ Quality widgets

And that is why:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
The US economy needs better infratructure, better educated and motivated workers and a stable environment.

China and India are catching up in infrastructure and education - so far probably out pacing the US in terms of advancement in those areas. Increased quality coupled with low wages.

That is why the US need to invest heavily in those areas to keep ahead of the curve in terns of competitiveness. Reduced taxes will make small dent (if any) if there is not an educated population to develop and manufacture complex products.
Step into my office, baby
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:38 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
The US economy needs better infratructure, better educated and motivated workers and a stable environment.

In a free market this is always the case ... he who improves survives. President Obama believes that this is the job for government. The more we rely on the government the less interested people become in improving . Its the old gravy train idea .

Now it may work in some countries ... but it will not work here IMO. Too many independent risk takers ( I think ??) left in the US . We are not a system of clones who get all snugly with there safe lives ... we want a challenge. At least that is what we used to be .... it is changing .. the soft parade is now dancing down the streets.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Ken777
Posts: 9021
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:40 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
Shakes a sympathetic head with disbelief that Americans seem to think this is an acceptable system. Hope things are OK Ken for both you and your wife. I hope Obama does you all proud.

Thank you for he best wishes - we're both in remission and/or cancer clear, especially the wife who, by the way is an Aussie from Perth.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
We can not afford universal health car

The question is how younger people will be able to afford health care as they age. In "W's" first term my health insurance doubled - a $6,000+ per year increase. It is realistic to project that someone in their 30's today will face insurance premiums of $30K To $40K per year in today's dollars. I'm covered, but am concerned about the kids and grandkids.

To be blunt, Medicare for all with supplemental coverage available from private companies could be both superior and far cheaper than what we have now.
 
mt99
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:41 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 36):
Too many independent risk takers

Risk takers got us in the current mess. I am glad you appreciate the maverick-ness of risk takers, but don't complain when that risk does not pay off.
Step into my office, baby
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:14 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 38):
but don't complain when that risk does not pay off.

No complaints here ... but we have morphed into a quasi free market with government involvement. Its cool , we will see how it plays out.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 37):
In "W's" first term my health insurance doubled - a $6,000+ per year increase

When insurance companies are just billing the government ... costs go up. Why not? ..its a endless cash cow . If the government got out of it...they would have to truly compete.... then costs would go down. Its like the $15,000.00 hammer . When Obama talks about lowering health care costs ... what he means is how much medicare is going to pay the providers. Not what you are going to pay in taxes. And when the Fed cuts cost to providers ... guess what .. service goes down and equipment technology lags behind.

I am telling u it is happening right now ... medicare just sent out a notice that they are going to pay 20% less than before for CT Heart scans. Sounds good right ? Problem is , providers are scrambling .. what do they do .. pay the technicians less ? Stop making the payments on the million dollar equipment ?

Look , I am not saying that there is a perfect way .. But please consider both sides of the argument.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Klaus
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:27 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 36):
In a free market this is always the case ... he who improves survives. President Obama believes that this is the job for government. The more we rely on the government the less interested people become in improving . Its the old gravy train idea .

Or so the oversimplified ideology says which has gotten you into your current mess in the first place.

In reality when it's about public infrastructure (which includes a viable health and education system), no private enterprise can really achieve the same level of results as the state can. There are obvious limits to what the state can or should do, but it is a severe mistake to destroy the state in the hope that that will somehow benefit everybody it is supposed to serve.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 36):
Now it may work in some countries ... but it will not work here IMO. Too many independent risk takers ( I think ??) left in the US . We are not a system of clones who get all snugly with there safe lives ... we want a challenge. At least that is what we used to be .... it is changing .. the soft parade is now dancing down the streets.

Given the wholesale failure of the ideology you're proposing, you don't really have much you can base that on, do you?  mischievous 
 
Charles79
Posts: 1117
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:41 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
That is basically what Obama was aiming at: The US economy needs better infratructure, better educated and motivated workers and a stable environment. And I think he's on the right track with that.

Why is it that you, Klaus, can see that yet 90% of the Americans can't? On the one hand we have those who are dressed in red who want government out of the equation almost completely, leaving the markets to behave themselves (nice idea but ruined by individual greed); since government is supposed to be tiny and powerless then it has no money left to maintain the infrastructure or educate the public. Then on the other side you got the folks dressed in blue who voted for "change" and want the government to turn the US into a serious global competitor but without the public actually lifting a finger or taking responsibility. As always, the happy medium is in the center but we completely miss it by being too focused on party colors and labels. I would hope that this recession would be our wake up call.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 36):
In a free market this is always the case ... he who improves survives. President Obama believes that this is the job for government. The more we rely on the government the less interested people become in improving . Its the old gravy train idea .

AGM, I think you miss the point here a bit...yes, individual enterprises should take care of their OWN infrastructure but they need the government of the country they are a guest in to provide them with updated infrastructure and an educated workforce. We are talking about reliable transportation systems, such as trains, rails, buses, airports, ATC systems, ports, etc, which enable commerce to succeed. Fiber-optic cables, telephone lines, power grids that you can rely on, heck even drinking water so that your workforce can live in the place. Then we have the workforce itself: do you realize that 70% of the graduate degrees that we award at US universities in math and science go to foreign students who take that knowledge back to their home countries? Not that it's wrong to host foreign students but our own youth simply can't compete with the engineering and scientific minds anymore. The US has been the site of countless innovations and technical advances but we cannot live off our past glories, we need to continue to reinvent the wheel. This is where we need the government to step in because the private industry simply won't, at least not at the national level it's needed.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 36):
We are not a system of clones who get all snugly with there safe lives ... we want a challenge.

AGM that sounds very romantic but it doesn't reflect reality. Being a "risk taker" and being "independent" has nothing to do with having a decent paved road that you can count on to get to work every morning. It has nothing to do with us, being the wealthiest country on Earth, providing our kids with the best education money can buy. If anything when you give the people the tools for the job then they go and do amazing things. Having the government provide those basic quality of life ingredients doesn't make you less American you know!  Wink
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:48 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 41):
Why is it that you, Klaus, can see that yet 90% of the Americans can't?

Distance often helps with perspective...!  cool 
(And, of course, I could still be wrong.)

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 41):
On the one hand we have those who are dressed in red who want government out of the equation almost completely, leaving the markets to behave themselves (nice idea but ruined by individual greed);

I always find it highly amusing that the Republicans have adopted the colour of communism — but when looking at recent events, maybe it's actually not just irony...!  mischievous 

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 41):
Then on the other side you got the folks dressed in blue who voted for "change" and want the government to turn the US into a serious global competitor but without the public actually lifting a finger or taking responsibility.

Probably with a good share of people among them who are more than just a bit shocked at the level of pragmatism they're now asked to work on as well.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 41):
As always, the happy medium is in the center but we completely miss it by being too focused on party colors and labels. I would hope that this recession would be our wake up call.

Obama to me looks a lot like Gene Kranz as portrayed in Apollo 13: A "can do" leader in a real pickle who just couldn't care less how the solution looks as long as it works. Perfect quote: "Failure is not an option!"

By comparison it looks a bit as if some people seem to have slept through the massive explosion and continue to insist that they're still perfectly on course as planned.

I think it's high time to wake up.

(For those who know german politics: That certainly includes the FDP market liberals who currently profit from the weakness of the conservatives but in actual fact have never ceased to advocate the exact recipe we now know is leading to disaster. Their policies are utterly bankrupt, but they still act as if they had just received full vindication...  yuck  )
 
AGM100
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:54 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
Given the wholesale failure of the ideology you're proposing, you don't really have much you can base that on, do you?

If you call the worlds largest economy .. more rich people , more houses , more cars , more money spent helping the global poor , more money pumped into the UN , World food banks largest donor , more charities , foreign aid... and just more fun ! .. then yes. Where do you think the $900 MILLION we just promised to Hamas today comes from? ... a failed economy.
Please , we waste more than 100 nations total GDP every year...thanks to the new deal ideas.

Again , they must make you believe it is all screwed up... that is how they will really screw it up. People do not realize that this is not even the worst economy in the past 20 years ! 88 89 was deeper .,higher unemployment , failing banks , rel-estate crash .. all of it. But the timing of this one just could not be more perfect..oh so perfect . They are communists .. plain and simple.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 41):
Having the government provide those basic quality of life ingredients doesn't make you less American you know!

We are not talking about building roads brother ... we are talking about the Fed running our entire economy... that is what all of this will lead to. It will fail . They want power .. and they must insert themselves into every facet to achieve it.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:30 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
If you call the worlds largest economy .. more rich people , more houses , more cars , more money spent helping the global poor , more money pumped into the UN , World food banks largest donor , more charities , foreign aid... and just more fun ! .. then yes. Where do you think the $900 MILLION we just promised to Hamas today comes from? ... a failed economy.

I'm not calling the USA a failed state, I'm calling the uncritical "market knows best!" concept a failed policy in light of recent events.
 
Charles79
Posts: 1117
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:04 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
we are talking about the Fed running our entire economy... that is what all of this will lead to. It will fail . They want power .. and they must insert themselves into every facet to achieve it.

I see your point AGM but we must admit that right in this very instance the opposite doesn't seem to be working that well, or is it? But I share your concern about having government intertwined in every market decision and I would share the opinion that such a move would fail. However we NEED government's intervention whether we like it or not, the market left to its own devices will only do what is right for itself without regards for the public, the environment, foreign policy, etc. Human greed knows no boundaries, witness Enron, witness the massive deforestation in the Amazon, witness the excess of wealth amassed by a few while the poor lack proper health care or access to quality education, witness the pollution levels which reached record highs this past century.

Having said that what we need to find is that balance where government allows industry to prosper while maintaining a desirable quality of life that is accessible by ordinary citizens. Our current system is not allowing for that to happen for many sectors of our society, so perhaps it's time we try a new system (or at least tweak the current one).

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Distance often helps with perspective...!

Distance may not always give the full picture or all of the details but at least allows you to see the issues objectively.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:37 am

I must say that as the economy has tanked and and since Obama was elected, I have detected a softening of the rhetoric from our right leaning friends, why I am amazed at the changes in the replies from some who bashed me over my stance on the world economy and free trade., and outsourcing jobs. I would guess that some have looked at the worsening conditions from a new perspective, maybe everyones savings and net worth totals has influenced the former shrill advocates of the new world order. I hate to say it, but just a little hint of hypocracy is in the air now. Why one could almost hope that common sense is making a comeback, where self and greed was riding high before. I guess George W. and his legacy has sort of shifted opinions. It seems overdue to me.  Smile
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:19 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
2 years from now ... 250K will be the equivalent of about 30k in buying power.

Aren't you pushing it a bit here?  Smile

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 32):
Cheap labor is just part of equation. I bet if the tax burden decreased you would see more stay here and offer their help more.

And until you can provide economic data to back up your claim, it will be just another baseless statement.

And because facts are needed to debunk some desperately clinging bullshit, according to the OECD, the US's corporate tax rate is 39.25%, and Japan is 39.54%. Japan, the disindustrialised country that suffers from chronic gigantic current accounts deficits and massive offshoring of jobs...  sarcastic 

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):
We are not talking about building roads brother ..

Yes we are.

http://enr.construction.com/business...009/0116-StimulusBillBreakdown.asp

 Smile
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:49 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
We can not afford universal health care OK ? SS and Medicare are already bankrupt now you are going to trust the same people to run your health care ?? Wake up .

Well waking up is, of course, difficult at my time of life. Nevertheless in response to your kind suggestion I will struggle to do that as well as wachet auf and bangun.

But that does not mean I sleep happily through the usual bunch of RW canards. Experience in a number of other developed economies suggests that what you cannot afford is not to have universal health care. Thanks for the kind invitation to reorganize you entire government's involvement in health and social security but I am a bit busy this week and I think comrade Obama has a few plans that might come first.

But on the subject of canards, how about "the doctor of your choice" canard? First, how do you know which doctor will be the best for you? Are there lists published giving averages such as we get here for the cricket and you get for baseball? And if you were able to peruse such useful lists, how much do you think you would have to pay for the best ones? Would insurance companies then tell you that you can chose a doctor in the 10% to 30% percentiles because any higher and they would be too expensive - for the insurance company?

Don't worry, eventually you guys will catch up.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Obama's Address To Congress

Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:54 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 47):


Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28):
2 years from now ... 250K will be the equivalent of about 30k in buying power.

Aren't you pushing it a bit here?

Now on that, I can agree with you.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 47):
And until you can provide economic data to back up your claim, it will be just another baseless statement.


Now on that, I can agree with you. We know it is cheap labor, pure and simple.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 47):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 43):

We are not talking about building roads brother ..

Yes we are.

Now on that, I can agree with you.
 Smile
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

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